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Reminder that Belgium has the highest radicalization rate in the world. 800 Muslims from Belgium go to fight for ISIS out of every 1 million in the country. Several times higher than what you see in the Middle East. Just in case anyone thinks it's a smart idea to get their racism on towards refugees after this. The flow of jihadist ideology comes out of Belgium, not towards it.
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Mar 22, 2016 09:53
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nimby posted:Local radio is reporting 13 dead, 35 wounded in zaventem airport. Reuters is echoing this.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:00
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Speculation, but something to keep in mind. https://twitter.com/ksnavarra/status/712197136859983872
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Mar 22, 2016 10:02
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Karmalis posted:Asking out of ignorance, how would they be such champs in that? Western Muslims are generally way more likely to become sympathetic to jihadist ideology than Muslims anywhere else, statistically. There's well established networks and militant Imam's that reach recruits, and their message obviously resonates with disaffected Muslims living in the West, although it's still an extremely small part of the overall Muslim population in Western countries. As far as why Belgium has such higher rates than other major jihadist hubs in Europe, I couldn't tell you. There's obviously something though, because they are a pretty big outlier.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:11
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Counter-terrorism dude saying that if this was part of Abdeslam's cell, it would be unprecedented. After the first big strike in other attacks, the response has been adequate to shut down the cell before they could attack again. If this group managed to get two, then that's not good news.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:42
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Dazzling Addar posted:i do not think it does, personally. at least not in this case. Well said. Here's an article that expands further on Belgium in particular if anyone is interested in finding out more about it. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/11/belgium-radical-islam-jihad-molenbeek-isis/416235/
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Mar 22, 2016 10:44
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Deltasquid posted:I think this person meant that the prosecutors revealed too much information to the media which caused this cell to spring into action. Fear of being caught or something. I think it's far-fetched, though. This is what he was saying. As I said, it's speculation, but it's interesting. No doubt that Abdeslam's homies were watching his trial closely. I don't know what kind of information did or didn't make it to the press though.
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Mar 22, 2016 12:26
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jonnypeh posted:Countries with little to no muslim population have no problems whatsoever with islamic terrorists. Just saying. 600,000 is a pretty small Muslim population.
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Mar 22, 2016 12:28
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jonnypeh posted:I was thinking more like 200. Hmm yes, Greenland doesn't have much of an issue with terrorism. Great points all round op. HUMAN FISH posted:Why are people jumping to conclusions that it's islamic terrorism? Is there any proof? I saw a report that allah ackbars were heard, but we'll see. Odds are that's what it is.
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Mar 22, 2016 12:33
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Paladinus posted:5% of the population is a sizeable minority, actually. He was referring to bulk numbers.
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Mar 22, 2016 12:35
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Rakosi posted:Okay but by itself isolation and oppression doesn't make a religious extremist suicide bomber. You missed a component in your analysis there. Y'know, the religion bit. Yes, but at the same time, Bangladesh and India combined have over 300 million Muslims, yet have had less of an issue with Islamic terrorism over the last few years than Belgium and France, who have less than 6 million Muslims between them. There are a shitload of factors at play here, and none of them is really the dominant one.
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Mar 22, 2016 12:51
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shrike82 posted:erm, Bangladesh and India have been grappling with domestic muslim terrorism bigger than anything seen in the West. Attacks in India have almost all been done by Pakistani nationals. And Bangladesh hasn't had anything like this.
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Mar 22, 2016 13:01
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icantfindaname posted:Bangladesh has had like dozens of journalists stabbed to death by Muslim extremists for blasphemy in the last few years? Less than died today in Belgium. If you add in the Paris attacks, you'd probably have to go back decades in Bangladesh to reach an equivalent death toll, if you could at all.
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Mar 22, 2016 13:11
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Mar 22, 2016 13:15
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Archer666 posted:Kurdish station "Rudaw" saying that ISIS claimed the attacks. So far that's the only source that says that, so take it with a grain of salt. Rudaw is a bit sketchy on inter-Kurdish politics, but when it comes to something like this they're pretty reliable. They deal with ISIS a lot as you'd expect, so if it's popped up on social media in ISIS circles or something, they'd know about it. Still no sure thing, but it's pretty likely ISIS has at least claimed the attacks.
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Mar 22, 2016 13:26
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the trump tutelage posted:Shift those goal posts! I'm forced to believe you don't know what this phrase means.
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Mar 22, 2016 13:37
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Rakosi posted:This is where we disagree I think. I see no reason to not mention the word "Islam" in this debate and particularly in the context of its role in turning disaffected people into deadly disaffected people, except for offending overly delicate sensibilities. It is broad, but considering Wahhabist self-identification is rampant among these terrorists, and Wahhabism is a brand of Islam, why shouldn't there be an intelligent and honest conversation on the subject? I don't think anyone gets to tell someone "Oh, that faith and belief that made you blow yourself up and murder a bunch of people? You didn't actually believe in that. You were just politically driven". I don't think you're having an intelligent discussion, although one is certainly needed, I agree. If you actually read into jihadist ideology, they talk about politics a lot more than they talk about Islam. For sure they have a set of ideals they stick to, usually one that is taught to you by a 19 year old Libyan "Islamic scholar," but it's not the religious rhetoric that gets people on board, or is the driving ideology. It's secondary. The major talking point is the persecution they claim exists against Islam in general. Some of their examples are true, some aren't, but at the end of the day, if you subscribe to their propaganda, the only answer is to fight to save the Muslims from the enemy. Whether that enemy be the near enemy, oppressive dictatorship and unaccountable sectarian militias massacring Sunni's, or the far enemy, like the US and its allies bombing away in support of their world war against Islam. If you're at that point, then you believe a lot of the heinous poo poo done by ISIS and similar minded groups is trumped up by Western propaganda to feed the machine of persecution against Muslims. If you try to talk to a jihadist about unjust executions in Syria or attacks that kill civilians, they generally don't come back with some sort of Islamic justification. They accuse you of hyping up deaths in the name of justice for Muslims while ignoring when Muslims are slaughtered for no reason, and poo poo like that. You out yourself as one of the bad guys who feed into the system of oppression against Muslims worldwide. It's a really conspiratorial line of thinking, but feeding into it doesn't help anyone. Primarily because when it comes to these jihadists, the view is that talking was already tried by the Muslim Brotherhood, and it didn't accomplish anything domestically or internationally. So the line now is that violence is the only way forward in that fight. You really have to counter that narrative if you want to have a chance to shine a light on that subculture and root it out.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:00
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the trump tutelage posted:Hmmm... Bangladesh has well over 200 times the Muslim population of Belgium. If Bangladesh had issues with terrorism at the scale of Belgium, assuming this is the one terrorist attack that Belgium has for the next 5 years, over 1,000 people would be dying every single year in the country. Not to mention there would be over 100,000 fighters who joined ISIS. Instead, you have like 9 assassinations over the last year, which is less than have died today in the 200 times smaller Muslim population country. So, like I said, Bangladesh does not have anything like that. No goalpost moving necessary.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:05
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Mar 22, 2016 15:34
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GaussianCopula posted:It's not discrimination if you force new arrivals to comply with your laws and morals. I'm sorry, but if they don't like it, they are free to go back to where they came from. They get the same welfare support as every other person that is unable to support themselves. Maybe it would be better if the state would force them to assimilate more into society by withholding the support. Are you really arguing that governments should deny aid programs to Muslims until they renounce their religion? lol
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Mar 22, 2016 15:45
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tell me more about secretarian violence arkane.
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Mar 22, 2016 15:52
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Decebal posted:So the proxy war in Yemen between Saudi Arabia and Iran is a consequence of Western oppression ? Ideology has no role at all ? That particular conflict is way more political than ideological. Iran for instance, armed the Sunni Taliban when it suited their political goals, so it's not like they're staunchly sectarian. KSA and Iran certainly use sectarian rhetoric when it benefits them, but that's not the driver. The bigger issue is that the power structures in the middle east are changing and Iran and KSA are the two biggest countries with the potential to capitalize on it. That's what Yemen, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon are about.
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Mar 22, 2016 16:02
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GaussianCopula posted:I nominate Molenbeek. Raid every single flat in that community and everyone who actively or passively supported the terrorists/ISIS gets punished. Do the same in all other boroughs that have similar problems. Collective punishment with the goal of spreading fear of the government among would-be radicals is workin really well for Egypt, let me tell you.
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Mar 22, 2016 16:10
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GaussianCopula posted:I think there is probable cause that they are aiding and abetting terrorists, therefore police should conduct the necessary investigations to gather more proof. Break all their poo poo while we're in there too. And rough em up a little bit. Let em know who's boss.
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Mar 22, 2016 16:30
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waitwhatno posted:If you have the hair and orange face for it, you should run for Eurotrump. now now, the raids would be temporary, not permanent. just until we figure out what's going on.
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Mar 22, 2016 16:40
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Space Gopher posted:I agree, if you take members of an ethnic/religious minority who have worked hard to attain all the signifiers of cultural accomplishment they're supposed to, put them in a white-collar job doing the same work as members of the majority, and then make it clear to them that they're never going to get ahead, that their coworkers and neighbors are always going to mutter "fuckin' terrorist" behind their backs at them, and politicians will use them as a scapegoat whenever it's convenient, it's utterly inconceivable to think that a few might be radicalized. It's more young suburban kids that get into it. Their parents are in the situation you describe. They end up in contact with someone on the internet or locally who tells them all about how the west is persecuting Muslims all over and inspire them to go do something about it. Gives them a sense of purpose and all that jazz. It's a really weird phenomenon. Western jihadists are brought up extremely differently than their Middle Eastern counterparts though.
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Mar 22, 2016 16:48
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Junior G-man posted:Jesus Christ what is it about EuroPol and Euro-event threads that's just a honeypot for racists and xenophobes? idk, but it sucks rear end. thanks for your posts.
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Mar 22, 2016 16:51
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AllanGordon posted:The majority of the migrants were not from Syria and instead came to Europe for welfare. It's not like they are capable of getting jobs with their education backgrounds that don't even reach what a 13 year old would learn. how are you not banned yet
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Mar 22, 2016 16:57
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Sharkie posted:And when the people say "Why are you searching my home?" the police say _____ we're just looking for some isises. noticed there were a lot of women wearin those funny things on their heads around this neighborhood so we figured we would take a look. say, you haven't seen any isis lately have you?
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Mar 22, 2016 16:59
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Lagotto posted:Stop pretending like you are the voice of Brussels or something, you are most likely just an expat sponging off of some EU institution. Got plenty of collegeaus holed up in offices, using the very metro stations that got bombed that are certainly not agreeing with you. I remember the types back when 9/11 happened. My advice would be not to let them drive policy.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:04
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GaussianCopula posted:According to the European Commision no Kurds arrived in Greece the last few month. But good try. The Sunni Sheitat tribe refused to pledge allegiance to ISIS with ISIS knocking on the door despite having no way to fend them off. A fight kicked off, but given the disparity between the fighting forces, it was more of a massacre. Over 1,000 of them have been killed so far, with the rest fleeing the country. Those Sunni Arabs are more anti-ISIS than you'll ever be. Go gently caress yourself.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:08
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GaussianCopula posted:The point was that Kurds are suppressed in Turkey and therefore asking them not to flee from there would be inhuman. Not sure how the story of a brave Sunni tribe relates to that argument. I thought you were taking issue with the "kurds are the ones who are fighting isis" part, not the Turkey part. As in we could let the Kurds in because they fight ISIS (which is a dumb, cheerleady thing to say), but none of the refugees are Kurds, so there's no one to let in. My apologies for telling you to go gently caress yourself on that post. Redirect it to the one where you called for martial law for Muslims.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:15
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Vox Nihili posted:Higher than Iraq? It's impossible to collect figures on Iraq and Syria because the countries are in a state of civil war. It's like trying to analyze how many Germans were radicalized Nazi's in the 1940's. Too many other dynamics at play to get realistic figures. But of all the countries that export citizens to the wars, Belgium is way up there per capita.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:42
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Vox Nihili posted:If you only count ISIS, maybe. There have been a ton of other radical militants in Iraq over the last decade. Remember the Sunni-Shia strife? There's Shia militias as well, but I don't think they'd fit into the Western definition of "terrorists." Although they are certainly extremists and they commit crimes against humanity on sectarian grounds just like jihadist groups do. But as far as Sunni militias go, ISIS is all-encompassing of the jihadist movement in Iraq. In Syria, it's far more fractured.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:47
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Decebal posted:So Sunnis and Shi'as killing each other for a 1000 years has nothing to do with belief. Got it Modern sectarianism didn't kick off until the 70's. The whole "killing each other for a thousand years" talking point is silly, and it's been debunked a billion times.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:59
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Arkane posted:You've stumbled into the correct answer, but have come to the wrong conclusion. Nah, it was because Saddam and Khomeini came into power at the same time and we got into some next level dickwaving. The Iran/Iraq War followed, and KSA got into the games as well, and the remaining, smaller nations in the Middle East quickly aligned along sectarian lines.
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Mar 22, 2016 18:07
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You'll see! You'll all see! History will vindicate me! You'll seeeeee *melts* - the bigot
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Mar 22, 2016 18:24
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Oracle posted:not all that effective period when it comes down to it. Chemicals disperse in open areas too quickly, biological attacks can affect your own people, they just plain don't work all that well. Largely true, but Ghouta showed us that carpet bombing a neighborhood with CW is a very effective way to get down in those nooks and crannies to kill hiding people that conventional rounds can't quite get to. ISIS doesn't have the kind of infrastructure for that sort of attack tho, thankfully.
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Mar 22, 2016 18:36
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kustomkarkommando posted:No there was a thread opened after the Paris attack to try to contain the crazy that lasted a while - there was some good posts in it breaking down specific hadith and jurisprudence but most of it was just howls from the shadows it was real bad
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Mar 22, 2016 22:29
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Nermal posted:You won't change the behaviour of Islamist extremists with theological argument or political negotiation. I don't want us to understand them or accommodate them, I want the jackboot grinding on their face until there are none of them left. this was the strategy in iraq from 2003-2007. 
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Mar 22, 2016 22:41
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