Explosions at Brussels Airport: At least 31 dead, 200+ injured

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Explosions at Brussels Airport: At least 31 dead, 200+ injured

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

JohannesSilentio posted:

If what you say is true, that socio-economic inequality and marginalization of these youth is the impetus for radicalization how do you explain this:

https://www.academia.edu/9013966/Affluence_Fundamentalism_and_Radicalization_in_Western_European_Muslim_communities

It seems a common trope to blame poverty and the host society rather than tenets in the ideology many of these young men subscribe to. This kind of relativism seems to be really blinding.

I blame individual's upbringing for instilling such poor reactions to failure in their lives. If one fails at a relationship, the appropriate pathway for coping isn't to set off on implementing some delusional plan to create paradise, its to accept that one is a failure and needs to change the core of who they are if they wish to quit being a failure.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2016 02:48

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 08:19

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

GreyjoyBastard posted:

Double edit: No really, Mr Leet. I seem to recall you have opinions about Muslims. How should They be treated in an enlightened Western democracy?

What a no-brainer: In accord with the will of a majority of the electorate.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2016 08:17

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

DarkCrawler posted:

btw. just because there isn't a national racist policy doesn't mean that minorities aren't made to feel different by individual racists. I'm pretty sure that can cause some dudes to snap and be drawn to a percieved community.

So, when you're in a position to influence policy, you can either deal with how people feel, or with systemic processes. Systemic processes one can measure objectively in order to determine validity; how do you determine whether one's feelings are valid? Surely, you can agree that the feeling of the terrorists in Belgium whom committed these henious acts of murder have no validity. Do those same feelings held by individuals who have yet to commit acts of terror hold validity? How can you measure invalid feelings in a manner which ensures survey validity, statistical significance, and replicability?

Majorian posted:

It's probably not accurate to completely say that one party does or doesn't bear full responsibility, full stop, though. This is a super complicated dynamic we're talking about here. Western societies rarely set out to do an imperfect job of integrating non-Western immigrants; no one's claiming any malice, as far as I can tell.

Let's shift the focus back to Molenbeek for a second - The Atlantic had a good piece on Islamism in Belgium in the aftermath of the Paris attack:

Phlegmish is right that the municipal government has tried to help immigrant populations integrate, but it would seem that many of these programs have barely scratched the surface (per The Atlantic's CityLab):

If individuals feel that they lack services, the solution is for those individuals to organize appropriate and sustainable institutions to provide those services for themselves. Not murder.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2016 19:51

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Volkerball posted:

Read from the bottom up.

That Turkey saw this person as a "foreign fighter," but Belgium didn't, is something that's going to need to be examined really closely.

Sounds like Belgium is operating with a pre-9/11 mindset in a post-9/11 world.

rudatron posted:

Here's an idea: maybe the unemployment is higher because they're not integrating. You understand that if you're applying and working at a job, you have to actually fit in with your coworkers around you, right? Well, apply that to employers as a whole, and you have your answer. The data you show doesn't itself explain anything. It shows this discrepancy exists, it doesn't show why.

"You can't blame the minorities for not integrating when you aren't letting them" where's the proof that these communities we're talking about want to integrate? They want jobs, obviously, because who doesn't want money, but where's the proof they actually give a poo poo about being western? I don't see it.That means the blame is on their shoulders, not anyone else's.

If an individual refuses to work with a woman as their superior, perhaps they deserve to lack a job.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2016 00:54

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Baxta posted:

Why are people making excuses for a minority of crazy terrorists who think the only way to deal with their lovely life is to destroy the lives of others?

Because they subscribe to a world-view in which marginalization is never acceptable when it is of an out-power group, no matter how detestable nor deserving of marginalization certain practices, such as sexism within the migrant community, may be.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2016 01:41

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Volkerball posted:

It's not really integration that's the issue. With or without racism, integration happens. We're dealing with a dark nook and cranny in that process. If 99.9% of a refugee population integrated just fine, there'd be nothing really to discuss. But if that .1% ended up ideologically aligned with a cult that advocated senseless violence, you still have a problem, even if the overwhelming procedure of integration was working, because you can't allow that .1% to exist. The casual racism I was discussing doesn't play so heavily into the overall integration process. It's more about its effect it has on that .1%, by validating ISIS propaganda. So even though, as I've already said, it's far from the sole factor at play, it's still something where work can be done to limit jihadist influence in the west.

And lol that refugees are failing to live up to their expectations to integrate when they've literally just gotten there. I'm sure there's all sorts of facts and data that support that view on stormfront.

You're a good poster who understands the fundamental issues, Volkerball. Unfortunately, those whom you respond to do not seem to.

Have you ever considered running for office?

# ¿ Mar 24, 2016 07:22

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Majorian posted:

Let me stop you there - no. You are the one refusing to assign responsibility where it is due, not us. You are the one pretending that Europe has no role to play in ensuring that its citizens are not alienated and marginalized.

I mean, it's nice that you have this narrative running through your head, but the evidence just doesn't support your claims. Employment discrimination and other forms of discrimination exist, and they pretty negatively affect the prospects of immigrants from the Islamic world, as well as their children. That's one of the root causes of radicalization and terrorist activity. You need to start accepting that the data, plus what people who actually know the first thing about counterterrorism (ie: not you) are saying, are not on your side.

Again, they have had time, but not the opportunity. Western European society has not done a good job of offering them equal opportunities at employment or social advancement.

I disagree. Opportunity exists for those who seek it out. Have they sought out opportunity, or have they only sat on their asses while demanding it be bestowed upon them?

# ¿ Mar 24, 2016 07:51

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Cat Mattress posted:

On the other hand, anti-Mexican sentiment is virtually absent from Europe, while anti-refugee sentiment is present enough in the USA to be one plank of Trump's platform (anti-Mexican sentiment being another).

Perhaps if refugees had demonstrated their love for American values more, via the process of killing ISIS rather than running away from them, they would not be one plank of Trump's many platforms.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2016 07:54

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Baxta posted:

Actually, Europe has given more opportunity for all those things compared to any other western country. Arguing that there is too much casual racism in Europe is funny coming from some whose country has Trump. Your idealism has no basis in reality.

Question that should be really asked is whether there is more racism in Europe than the points of origins for these illegal immigrants.

my dad posted:

I eagerly await records and pics of you killing ISIS fighters in battle. I'm sure an upstanding American such as you has quite a few.

Wouldn't it be great if we could crowdsource our dronewar against ISiL to America's gamer community?

# ¿ Mar 24, 2016 07:58

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

DarkCrawler posted:

Is it easier to radicalize criminals or regular people? All of these people were involved with crime before radicalizing.

I'd say its easier to radicalize arab muslims than it is any other group.

Volkerball posted:

This info is all a couple years out of date. Their oil business took a poo poo as soon as the US started bombing everything, the antiquities market is drying up and they're resorting to torturing museum curators in the hopes that they have a treasure map in their head or something, and most of the reports about them making shitloads of money by taking over a bank were based around one in Mosul where they didn't actually get much of anything. Not long ago, one of their financial gurus was captured by US forces with a ton of details on their operation in his possession, and since then, things haven't been going so well financially. They are highly dependent on foreign aid, as it's what got them their start to begin with, and it's the one constant.

Captured with payroll data on thousands of individuals who are walking the streets of Europe and North America this very day.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2016 00:54

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

double nine posted:

Here's a must-read on the origins of these jihadis: http://europe.newsweek.com/belgium-new-extremists-jihadi-cool-brussels-attacks-439640?rm=eu

Punks who murder is the name of my new Pink Floyd cover band.

I believe the traditional term for this is "anarchists." We didn't loving eliminate anarchists as an ideology by ~playing nice~ and asking why they felt marginalized; we defeated anarchists by deporting folk like Emma Goldman under the 1918 Radical Alien act.

Perhaps it is time Europe learn from America's successes in the 20th century and deport radical aliens.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2016 07:10

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

corn in the bible posted:

migf why do you hate feminism

Is it not clear on where I stand? I dislike anarchists, and strongly dislike radical aliens, no matter their religion nor color of their skin.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2016 07:29

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

corn in the bible posted:

migf: big fan of arresting women for telling people to vote and use condoms

Enforcement is not my department. I am concerned with policy, and frankly, deporting anarchists is good policy.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2016 07:40

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Rigged Death Trap posted:

Modern nuclear plants are incredibly hard to do something to without intimate knowledge of the plant itself and the physics involved. You can drive a supersonic fighter jet into a nuclear station and nothing much but a stain is left on the reactor wall.
Nuclear stations security itself is secure as hell.

Counterpoint: This is Belgium, the nation which will not seize Europe's most wanted terrorist plotting a mass casualty attack because it's after 5pm.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2016 23:13

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

GaussianCopula posted:

That list is very incomplete, e.g. it's missing all the communist/socialists murders by the RAF.

It's not murder when it is conducted by the military institutions of a free and fair Democracy; it's murder when it is individual networks killing individuals, rather than military institutions eliminating military targets.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2016 23:14

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Cat Mattress posted:

He meant Rote Armee Fraktion, not Royal Air Force.

The folks that one Bader-Meinhoff Complex movie was about? They don't deserve to share an acronym with the same institute which gave Hitler the what-what and saved democracy in Europe.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2016 23:29

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

corn in the bible posted:

you're all a bunch of stupid bitches

Especially Belgium, which couldn't stop a terrorist attack after being informed the location of the bombs the night before because it's adter 5pm.

Is there any way to fix Belgium before they become the Jihadi U of Europe? 'cause last I saw, the Belgians couldn't think of anything to do other than blame Angela Merkel.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2016 09:12

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

MattD1zzl3 posted:

NATO is there, the US might as well take it over as a state and flood it with military, Were we not the EU done right hundreds of years ago? . (And then build a wall)

It's not NATO's fault that Belgium has completely forgot how to run security checks on illegal summer camp activists.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2016 16:46

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Carry a banner that says "gently caress ISIS" in Belgium? Apparently that's worth calling in riot police on.

Jesus loving christ its like Belgium isnt even a real country

Maybe European nations should man up and impose the death penalty for terrorism and providing material aid to terrorists. That Algerian the italians rounded up who provided fake ID's to those terrorists? Hang him to set an example for any other would-be forgers.

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Mar 27, 2016

# ¿ Mar 27, 2016 17:34

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

the trump tutelage posted:

Can someone explain why ISIS' claim to Islam less valid than anyone else's? Is it because they do bad things and pretending their religion isn't a factor creates less cognitive dissonance?

Given that there is no religious hierarchy in islam, no.

The solution is clear: reform the religion to resemble Catholicism.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2016 23:06

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

steinrokkan posted:

Islam is absolutely impossible to reform to have a single authority. Even the caliphs never were comparable to popes.

And that's why terrorism exists. Either reform to centralize authority in the hands of an institution which only authorizes violence for its own political benefit, with said benefit being acceptable with American interests, or provide incentives and disencentives which encourage individuals to do so on their own.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2016 23:12

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Lotka Volterra posted:

I think you've answered your own question, here. The westerners who go off to fight have relatively cozy existences and the resources to do so more easily than, say, someone in a reserve or a favela. Additionally, despair tends to manifest in different ways depending on the person or the society. Reservations (at least in the US) face shocking rates of violence and domestic abuse, as well as alcoholism. Ghettos? Manifests as much the same, with gang violence and drug abuse. If the majority of disaffected westerners were going to fight in the Middle East as Islamic crusaders, we would have quite the problem but they're not. They are falling into the prevailing pattern of those who are disenfranchised within their society or community. The fact that we don't have westerners leaving in droves speaks to the regional nature of the issue. It's not an ideology that survives well out of context.

Generally, the problems and doubts we encounter have some sort of root in our material world. Even if the manifestation cannot be entirely placed upon it, we are responding in one way or another to stressors in our environment. While we cannot make all of these things simply disappear, it is worth it to attempt to alleviate these as much as possible before attempting to tackle the problem at an intellectual level.

If you are disenfranchised within your community, or see a need within your community, organize an appropriate organization in order to address the social maladies you see.

You don't loving go off and murder folk. That is never acceptable, and anyone who does so should have a family facing severe ostrication for being such poor influences and role models.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2016 23:24

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

SedanChair posted:

Looks more Catholic to me!

If he were seeking papal recognition and were facing an islamist uprising because he were attempting to develop an appropriate religious institution in Syria, then yes, Assad would look catholic.

Tbqh I think Assad would jump the gun at converting were it to be his political survival on the line if he refused. He's an empty-suit opportunist; nothing more, nothing less.

Maybe an optomitrist. Maybe.

fspades posted:

I do. Even there most of the murders are happening between gang members and the Mexican society knows it. There is the general expectation that you won't be killed unless you mix with the wrong sort of people or stick your head out too much. Even if this belief is not true in all cases, ordinary life can go on. Violence is compartmentalized to a subset of society.

Wikipedia says that the drug war claimed 164.000 lives since 2006. Now imagine if Islamists killed hundreds of thousands in France with indiscriminate attacks. What do you think would happen?

2:1 odds you'd say the same about life under ISIL.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2016 03:13

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 08:19

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Volkerball posted:

Cartels absolutely kill people to send a message. But man this discussion has really poo poo the bed.

isis kills people to send a message. problem is, shitload of posters on this forum have a hard time empathizing with isil's victims and processing their message as the victims would.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2016 03:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Explosions at Brussels Airport: At least 31 dead, 200+ injured