|
blowfish posted:You should not care about gender roles period. Demanding recognition for an arbitrary range of additional gender roles gets silly and is annying. That is incredibly easy to say when you fit into those gender roles. When you are trans and get abused for who you are, it becomes impossible to just "not care." We have to demand recognition because the society we live in still thinks it's okay to harass, abuse, and take away our rights. I'm sorry that's annoying to you.
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 08:30 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:The argument is that traditional gender roles are unnecessary and should not be assigned to people without their consent. Instead people should be free to choose their own role regardless of their gender and the idea that there are only two acceptable roles is dumb. One of the basic constitutive features of gender is that it's imposed on individuals from the outside world, this argument seems to be an argument against th very idea of gender altogether Do these same criticisms apply to ethnic identity? That is something people are just born into and they learn from society th meaning of that designation. Should it be culturally acceptable for people to choose their ethnic identity and should individuals be expected to validate the chosen ethnic Identities of other people? Also, if gender roles are "unnecessary", why are they a basic fundamental feature of all human societies across location and culture and time period?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:50
|
|
|
Atasnaya Vaflja posted:That is incredibly easy to say when you fit into those gender roles. When you are trans and get abused for who you are, it becomes impossible to just "not care." "not care" in that case should be prescriptive for regressives who flip their poo poo over the existence of trans people
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:51
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
blowfish posted:You should not care about gender roles period. Demanding recognition for an arbitrary range of additional gender roles gets silly and is annying. Exactly. If you think that gender roles are irrelevant, you don't need extra pronouns. The effeminate nurse that dates men and had a penis can still be a he. He can dress, act, gently caress and marry whoever while still being a man.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:51
|
|
|
blowfish posted:"not care" in that case should be prescriptive for regressives who flip their poo poo over the existence of trans people You called trans people you disagree with annoying in your last post. I'm using "not care" in this case to refer to the fact that we have to care. We're being abused and attacked for who we are. We don't have the privilege to ignore it like you do. Frosted Flake posted:Exactly. If you think that gender roles are irrelevant, you don't need extra pronouns. Except if they don't identify as a man. You don't get to decide that. That's the entire point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:52
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:Also, if Good question, Commie NedFlanders. I, too, think we should be slavishly beholden to the past. Nothing must ever change. Nothing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:One of the basic constitutive features of gender is that it's imposed on individuals from the outside world, this argument seems to be an argument against th very idea of gender altogether Yes yes and yes. I dunno, why is spiritualism a fundamental feature of almost all human societies? People believe some dumb stuff. Ideally they should try not to. Frosted Flake posted:Exactly. If you think that gender roles are irrelevant, you don't need extra pronouns. Maybe the effeminate nurse doesn't want to be a man, why should they have to be?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Why not? You're already "violating 10,000 years of sexuality and gender" by not assigning them a gender (which for some reason is... bad?), so what makes slightly changing one singular syllable such an onerous burden? I think what most people are recoiling against with regards to new or personalized pronouns specifically is the raw egotism of expecting someone to simply subordinate themselves to your idiosyncrasies before interaction even takes place. This isn't a kathoey/two spirit thing either, where there is a culturally accepted third gender or otherwise a pigeonhole to put the person in outside the typical male/female binary. It's someone saying "You will use new pronouns for me because I said so." It's the gender politics equivalent of a band's onerous backstage demands.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
blowfish posted:You should not care about gender roles period. Demanding recognition for an arbitrary range of additional gender roles gets silly and is annying. for many people, gender is a fundamental defining feature of their identity, isn't it condescending to tell other people what should or should not matter to them? how can an intellectually honest liberal walk around dictating to people what is good or bad to believe in, in the name of inclusion? I used to think those stupid right-wing articles about liberalism running rampant and universities becoming places where debate is not allowed was just good ol reactionary hysteria, but it seems that liberals today really do want to create a Dictatorship of the Culturally Excluded and they are going full Stalin, trying to police what people value and think and argue that certain issues are not even acceptable to be questioned or debated
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:55
|
|
|
Ahhh after 10,000 years I'm free! Time to conquer language.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:55
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Exactly. If you think that gender roles are irrelevant, you don't need extra pronouns. And if that person doesn't want to be called a man, what then? What if that person doesn't want to be called a woman, either, or "they" because that person had an abusive parent who called their child "they" while trying to beat the queer out of said child? Why are you unwilling to show even the most basic amount of human decency to that person?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:57
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:for many people, gender is a fundamental defining feature of their identity, isn't it condescending to tell other people what should or should not matter to them? You can believe whatever you want about yourself, if you really want to be whatever your perception of a traditional gender role is, go nuts. Nobody's going to stop you. There is no reason however why you should expect everyone else to fit themselves into that role.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 18:57
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Yes yes and yes. If Donald Trump's son decided to put on black face and walk around black neighborhoods speaking in Ebonics, would you defend his right to choose his own identity? Would you call a resident of that neighborhood stupid or close minded if they wer offended? quote:I dunno, why is spiritualism a fundamental feature of almost all human societies? That's a good question maybe do some honest good faith research into the subject quote:People believe some dumb stuff. Or not. See, I could just as easily say all of these ideas is liberal gender politics is just a result of "people believe some dumb stuff". How can you claim any idea is better than any other when you take this attitude?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:00
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:You can believe whatever you want about yourself, if you really want to be whatever your perception of a traditional gender role is, go nuts. Nobody's going to stop you. You mean like demanding changes in language, which is inherently social?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:01
|
|
|
the trump tutelage posted:It's funny you refer to "xe", "zir" and/or "ve" as words of an incantation because what those pronouns mean - and especially because you cannot anticipate when they are used - is that someone gets to unilaterally decide how they are categorized, at their leisure, and it is hateful or discriminatory not to indulge them. They really are supposed to be like magic words in that respect. So you think that basic decency to another human being = actual magic. Well that certainly explains a lot about your position. quote:I think what most people are recoiling against with regards to new or personalized pronouns specifically is the raw egotism of expecting someone to simply subordinate themselves to your idiosyncrasies before interaction even takes place. No one here has argued that you should somehow have pre-knowledge of someone's preferred gender prior to interacting with them. What people are saying is that if someone asks you "Hey, it would mean a lot to me if you referred to me as '[pronoun]'" you not devolve into a pants-making GBS threads ape-creature screaming about how that request is literally impossible to follow through on. So far people have expended far, far more energy getting worked up over hypothetical interactions that haven't even happened to them personally than they would, on the off chance they actually are asked, just saying "yeah, sure thing".
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:03
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:And if that person doesn't want to be called a man, what then? What if that person doesn't want to be called a woman, either, or "they" because that person had an abusive parent who called their child "they" while trying to beat the queer out of said child? Why are you unwilling to show even the most basic amount of human decency to that person? Here's the thing, in my personal life, I would still play along and call someone what they preferred to be called, even if I thought it was stupid as hell. I would play into their silly language game to make them comfortable because that's a kind thing to do for someone else. Why can't they see that such considerations work both ways and stop being so demanding or condescending to other people ho have different views? It boggles my mind that someone who knows what it's like to be mistreated, as many LGBT people do, will turn around and ostracize people for having "politically incorrect " beliefs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:05
|
|
|
Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You called trans people you disagree with annoying in your last post. I called people who not only assign to themselves but demand from everyone around them special snowflake recognition in my last post. quote:I'm using "not care" in this case to refer to the fact that we have to care. We're being abused and attacked for who we are. We don't have the privilege to ignore it like you do. Commie NedFlanders posted:for many people, gender is a fundamental defining feature of their identity, isn't it condescending to tell other people what should or should not matter to them? well good for them, but nobody else has to use that as the primary way of evaluating them quote:I used to think those stupid right-wing articles about liberalism running rampant and universities becoming places where debate is not allowed was just good ol reactionary hysteria, but it seems that liberals today really do want to create a Dictatorship of the Culturally Excluded and they are going full Stalin, trying to police what people value and think and argue that certain issues are not even acceptable to be questioned or debated  or  is the more appropriate response here
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:06
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:If Donald Trump's son decided to put on black face and walk around black neighborhoods speaking in Ebonics, would you defend his right to choose his own identity? That depends, is he doing it to take the piss out of black people (probably) or does he genuinely think he's black (probably not). If he does, well, I guess he can do that if he wants to. Don't make fun of the unwell. I would expect if the case was the latter though he would probably not do that because he would understand why people might think he was just being a dickhead. Commie NedFlanders posted:That's a good question maybe do some honest good faith research into the subject Because I can use my brain to assess whether or not I think a thing has value by judging its likelihood of being true, or by judging its utility as a tool for achieving what I consider the ideal state of human existence. Commie NedFlanders posted:You mean like demanding changes in language, which is inherently social? Nobody is telling you you can't call yourself a he, they are merely requesting that you call them what they want to be called as well. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Mar 23, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:06
|
|
|
How is a gender blind society an ideal worth striving for? Some people are proud of their gender This is like going into the NAACP and giving hem crap because OVVIOUSLY they should be Not See Race
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:08
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:Here's the thing, in my personal life, I would still play along and call someone what they preferred to be called, even if I thought it was stupid as hell. I would play into their silly language game to make them comfortable because that's a kind thing to do for someone else. Then why are you so worked up? quote:Why can't they see that such considerations work both ways and stop being so demanding or condescending to other people ho have different views? "  Why won't people tolerate my intolerance?!"
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:09
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:How is a gender blind society an ideal worth striving for? You can be proud of your gender if you want to. I think it's a bit of a silly thing to be proud of unless you're transgendered but there's nothing really wrong with you doing it if you want to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:09
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:Here's the thing, in my personal life, I would still play along and call someone what they preferred to be called, even if I thought it was stupid as hell. I would play into their silly language game to make them comfortable because that's a kind thing to do for someone else. Because "wouldn't it be nice if everyone were nice to each other  " is not the be-all end-all for how society should work. Ironic, coming from someone complaining that librulz want to shut down debate because their precious feelings were hurt.quote:It boggles my mind that someone who knows what it's like to be mistreated, as many LGBT people do, will turn around and ostracize people for having "politically incorrect " beliefs. Because
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:10
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:How is a gender blind society an ideal worth striving for? That's good for them, but why should it matter to everyone else? For instance, if someone is sifting through job applications they shouldn't care about what gender the applicant ~self identifies~, but about the applicant's qualifications, accomplishments, team work ability, etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:That depends, is he doing it to take the piss out of black people (probably) or does he genuinely think he's black (probably not). If he does, well, I guess he can do that if he wants to. Don't make fun of the unwell. You are assuming he would be "unwell" if he really believed he is black, which is condescending. You say he can do what he wants, but you do recognize that the black people in that community might find his actions to be offensive and demeaning and an insult to their own cultural identity? quote:Because I can use my brain to assess whether or not I think a thing has value by judging its likelihood of being true, or by judging its utility as a tool for achieving what I consider the ideal state of human existence. I'm asking what steps your brain took, what is the reasoning behind your conclusion quote:Nobody is telling you you can't call yourself a he, they are merely requesting that you call them what they want to be called as well. you do realize that if everyone can freely call things whatever they pleAse, then signifiers become detached from he signified and we fall into a pre-symbolic psychotic soup Let me put it to you this way: words have meanings and those meanings are very important. Look at the issue of Abortion, one of the most hotly contentious issues in American politics, which ultimately hinges on words and their definitions, specifically the definition of a Person. If we call a fetus a Person, or if we don't call a fetus a Person, has profound and far reaching consequences for society. Now you are free to call a plant a man or a magnet a woman or a fetus a person, but the moment you start insisting that other people outside of your own brain do the same, you begin to deconstruct the meaning of those words When you ask me to call a transperson a "woman", that has meaning, it means something and part of that meaning is that this person has lived their life being treated as not a male, as a female, and the culmination of her life experiences has shaped her subjective position into something that I can call "woman". When you insist that I call someone a woman who didn't have those experiences, it changes the meaning of the word. The word "woman" carries a certain type of honor and respect, sort of like the word "officer" or "professor" or "judge" and when anyone is allowed to slap any label to anyone, it is an insult to the people who have earned that label properly, it diminishes the social meaning of the word
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:22
|
|
|
blowfish posted:That's good for them, but why should it matter to everyone else? For instance, if someone is sifting through job applications they shouldn't care about what gender the applicant ~self identifies~, but about the applicant's qualifications, accomplishments, team work ability, etc. I agree, someone's internal self identification shouldn't matter at all. What matters is your external features which affect other people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:23
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:The word "woman" carries a certain type of honor and respect, sort of like the word "officer" or "professor" or "judge" and when anyone is allowed to slap any label to anyone, it is an insult to the people who have earned that label properly, it diminishes the social meaning of the word Yea, these filthy trans people don't deserve the honor or respect of such a worthy title as "woman." Go gently caress yourself.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:34
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:When you ask me to call a transperson a "woman", that has meaning, it means something and part of that meaning is that this person has lived their life being treated as not a male, as a female, and the culmination of her life experiences has shaped her subjective position into something that I can call "woman". When you insist that I call someone a woman who didn't have those experiences, it changes the meaning of the word. This is exactly the argument used against transpeople about why they shouldn't be allowed to transition or ever call themselves by anything except their birth sex. "That's not a 'transwoman', that's a man. Born a man, raised a man, lived as a man, and will always be a man, no matter what his sick brain tells him, and calling that man a woman is an insult to women everywhere." So is that your position now? That gender is completely immutable? That after a certain age you're locked in forever?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:34
|
|
|
Deriving your sense of self worth from the social inertia of the word used to describe your gender is suboptimal. It would be preferable if you adjusted your concept of self worth such that it does not rely on that, then you would have no complaint with people changing the social meaning of that word. Your same argument can be used against all forms of feminism, really, because a housewife may not like having the meaning of woman changed from "property of her husband" to something else. The optimal society is one where people do not feel a need to derive personal value from the inertia of language.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:35
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:for many people, gender is a fundamental defining feature of their identity, isn't it condescending to tell other people what should or should not matter to them? You realize you're skewering your own argument right? Commie NedFlanders posted:how can an intellectually honest liberal walk around dictating to people what is good or bad to believe in, in the name of inclusion? Encouraging politeness and empathy is more or less a cornerstone of liberalism. Inlusion implies empathy. You're thinking how you feel, not how the other person feels. Commie NedFlanders posted:I used to think those stupid right-wing articles about liberalism running rampant and universities becoming places where debate is not allowed was just good ol reactionary hysteria, but it seems that liberals today really do want to create a Dictatorship of the Culturally Excluded and they are going full Stalin, trying to police what people value and think and argue that certain issues are not even acceptable to be questioned or debated  You realize students protest speakers' ideals right? It's just when the speakers hear this, they peace out cause they're punk-rear end bitches and can't take the heat when their ideas are challenged.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:45
|
|
|
Commie NedFlanders posted:I agree, someone's internal self identification shouldn't matter at all. What matters is your external features which affect other people. Why? You need to answer this because this is the crux of the issue.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:48
|
|
|
A couple years ago this thread would have accused someone talking about xe/xer pronouns of concern trolling because they are obviously ridiculous. Now they are cool and good I guess?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:56
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:A couple years ago this thread would have accused someone talking about xe/xer pronouns of concern trolling because they are obviously ridiculous. Are you often confused by the linear passage of time?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:57
|
|
|
If gender is fluid and totally constructed, why transition anyways? The Genderqueer and Trans elements of LGBT seem totally at odds with each other. Are Drag Shows an essential part of Gay culture or modern day blackface minstrel shows? e: Who What Now posted:Are you often confused by the linear passage of time? lolol the historical inevitability of xe/xir.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 19:58
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:If gender is fluid and totally constructed, why transition anyways? Gender is arbitrary, that it is arbitrary does not necessitate complete conscious control over it. It is sometimes easier to change the body than the mind. Some people want to be men, some people want to be women, some people want to be something else, some people want to be any and all of the above. There isn't really any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to be.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 20:05
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Some people want to be men, some people want to be women, some people want to be something else, some people want to be any and all of the above. And some people want to live a life free from the specter of employment: this, I assume, is where xe/xer comes into play.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 20:10
|
|
|
A lot of people want a lot of things. Some things just aren't possible, other things are worth a pat on the head, a few aren't worth everybody else indulging.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 20:10
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:A lot of people want a lot of things. Some things just aren't possible, other things are worth a pat on the head, a few aren't worth everybody else indulging. I'm not sure why a mild alteration to which pronoun you use upon request really fits into any of those categories.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 20:12
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:A lot of people want a lot of things. Some things just aren't possible, other things are worth a pat on the head, a few aren't worth everybody else indulging. Why are you terrified of calling someone something other than "he", "she", or "they"? Do you often break into a cold sweat if you encounter an unfamiliar word? Why do you think it is literally impossible to call someone by a different pronoun?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 20:13
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:So you think that basic decency to another human being = actual magic. Well that certainly explains a lot about your position.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 20:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 08:30 |
|
|
Performing gender is a two-way street. Fantasy genders rightfully make people uncomfortable because they have no idea how to perform their own gender around starchild genderblobs. E: weirdos can obviously call themselves whatever they want, as long as they don't expect to be taken seriously in an interview/application/classroom/anywhere outside of their hugbox. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Mar 23, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2016 20:25
|
|