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Slightly Toasted posted:This was a neat post to read and helped me frame the issue more rationally for when I encounter people who think things based on religion that I don't about gays in the future. I've enjoyed reading your posts in this thread, thank you. I'm glad that you found the post helpful in some way, you're welcome. Let me know if you have any other questions or thoughts you'd like to explore Rakosi posted:To the people who answered about why they believe in a specific God; why do you not believe in any of the many other Gods? Honestly, I do not really think about whether they exist or not. God, as He has made himself known to us through the prophets and His son Christ Jesus, is all sufficient for me, and I need no other. If I had to answer the question, shooting from the hip so to speak, I'd guess they don't exist as products of man, or are man's attempt to identify God and yet have chosen not to use the revelations He has provided (either through choice or simply never having heard the gospel). Even if there were other gods that existed, God has made Himself known to me in my life and I will have no other god before Him in my life. Therefore their existence or non-existence are irrelevant to me. Subyng posted:God believers: do you recognize that a belief in any one particular God (most notably God of the Abrahamic religions) is irrational and illogical? Your entire post is predicated on this statement, and yet you offer no reason or proof for this statement. Why do you believe that faith in God must be illogical simply because you yourself have not seen Him? Subyng posted:Likewise, do you recognize that your belief is most likely the result of the circumstance of your upbringing, rooted in a part of your brain that has nothing to do with rational thought and logic, and that it doesn't really make sense, but you believe it anyway "just because"? Or do you honestly believe that God is a truth of the universe in the same way that 1+1=2 is a truth of the universe? My belief in God has been built over the years by His continual presence in my life and what He has done for me. Despite being brought up in a church, my theology has been developed solely from my own study of His word and my experiences, not from what someone else has told me. I do not believe anything "just because" but have faith in my Creator because even today does He still reach out to help in my my times of need and to make manifest in my life the love He has for me. God is a fundamental truth in the universe and in my life because He has said "test me in this; ask and you shall receive, seek, and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened," and He has never failed me yet. If someone tells me something, I might question it; if I see it for myself, I might consider it; if I experience it for myself, I know it to be true.
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Jun 13, 2016 03:43
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Phone posting so forgive autocorrect errors if I miss any. I grew up with parents who were pretty laid back. They took me and my sister to church (methodist) but our house was filled with a diversity of religious literature. Koran, The Prophet, Teachings of Buddha, tantric stuff, etc. Their attitude was we want you to make your own choices. In church and youth group I was very lucky to be surrounded by people who lived an example of grace. At the same there was the growing trend of evangelism that I tangentially saw, think "aquire the fire" type events. Within the church I was a member of this led to a spilt between the more mainline elements and the growing evangelical portion of the congregation. The whole thing turned me off and I stopped attending, but I did not cease to be religious. I also encountered some fundamentalism in family and mentors (coaches scout leaders etc) but luckily never fell into it. I always somehow saw the hypocrisy. In middle school and high school I did a lot of community service, thousands and thousands of hours mostly through scouting. At some point I began to question: why am I doing this?, what is the point?, does all this service have any meaning? Still religious I asked God for an answer. I didn't get one. I've never had a experience where I would say I've gotten an answer from God. I demanded God give me an answer and I'll give you my life! Nothing. But I went to the New Testament and what I saw was the example of Jesus as someone who served and accepted others, all others, and without condition. That was enough and I stayed religious. I went off to a federal academy ( where I mostly opted out of religious services and witnessed 9/11) and out the sea (where I saw poverty, drugs, inhumanity, loneliness in many different places around the world. ) I also saw the depth of humaness in the world. There was at least one time I only made it back to a vessel because the help of a sex worker. And no, never did that ( virgin until I got married) Later I married a lutheran seminary graduate. Her arguments made me think that the ELCA was pretty spot on for a denomination. I also dug into her library, and about the same time I started arguing about God here. The heart of my faith now is that in the example of Jesus, of a human being for other human beings without condition, salvation can be found. I also believe in the humanity in all people. I believe that the only time I cannot find some commanality with anyone I interact with is if I give up. I also believe that we are all in the same reality. Those the reasons I am panentheist, trinitarian, logocentric Christian.
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Jun 13, 2016 03:45
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Joke answer: I'm a gambler and figured going with the og of the big three was the safest bet Real answer: I was pretty hosed up as a kid and I carried that with me for a while. I spent time hosed up and all and I genuinely and truly in my heart believe that what helped me get clean and not relapse when poo poo like friends dying happened was some kind of outside force. I may be wrong on 'who' it was or 'what' it was or whatever but for all my life I was raised with Jewish stories and all, and that's what I associate with this. I may die and find myself in front of fuckin Shiva or whatever and have to go 'aw poo poo my bad, dude' and if that's the case that's the case, but I do genuinely believe there's something greater than humanity that guides things. I think we have free will and all that jazz but I believe there's some level of a greater force that connects us all. For a lot of people it's just the concept of the universe or whatever, and that's fine, but for me yea, I believe it's God. Rakosi posted:To the people who answered about why they believe in a specific God; why do you not believe in any of the many other Gods? I guess I'm a Reform Jew for a reason, I think these are all valid beliefs as long as they lead you on a path of good and respect for your fellow man and all that. I think that there are many paths to the same answer, and what matters is what the answer is rather than the path you took. In many Jewish stories the heroes are men and women who have both faith and wisdom together, and in fact many of them illustrate that pure blind faith can leave you lacking if you don't put yourself out there as well. Subyng posted:God believers: do you recognize that a belief in any one particular God (most notably God of the Abrahamic religions) is irrational and illogical? And that to willingly act in irrational and illogical ways is, in short, stupid? I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but "stupid" really is the most apt word. Now I recognize that humans aren't perfectly rational beings. For example, if I injure my leg doing squats, but decide the next day to keep doing squats rather than rest, that's undeniably irrational, illogical, and stupid, if my goal is to not hurt myself. Yet I might do it anyway due to some irrational desire, and I would recognize that I'm doing something stupid because of a desire/belief that I cannot rationalize. Likewise, do you recognize that your belief is most likely the result of the circumstance of your upbringing, rooted in a part of your brain that has nothing to do with rational thought and logic, and that it doesn't really make sense, but you believe it anyway "just because"? Or do you honestly believe that God is a truth of the universe in the same way that 1+1=2 is a truth of the universe? It might be. Do you believe that if a man lives his life as a good and kind man, but holds an 'illogical' belief that he's less of a good man? In the same way, is a man who does an evil deed because he thinks God wants him to more evil than one who does it just because he wants to?
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Jun 13, 2016 04:06
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Would a story about why I don't believe be welcome in the thread? Or is that another page. Also, I've gotten into arguments with people here over religion before. Hello! Glad to see we're all human and not unfeeling, unthinking AI running in the crappiest universal simulation possible. It's been genuinely nice to hear your stories.
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Jun 13, 2016 04:16
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Subyng posted:Or do you honestly believe that God is a truth of the universe in the same way that 1+1=2 is a truth of the universe? It'd be this, frankly; the argument being that there are moral laws which inhere in the fabric of the world, like gravity, and, like gravity, they are true whether you believe in them or not. The way in which that ends up being true is, unfortunately, kind of slippery; there's a real desire to flatten out truth into law, when truth is it's thorny and complicated. Contradictory things can be true at the same time; even though that, logically, cannot be the case, it nonetheless is; an example in Christian thinking would be the ever-present tension between God's justice and God's mercy. It's tough. The truth is difficult.
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Jun 13, 2016 04:25
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Describe the religious experience: what happened, how did you differentiate it from an everyday event or a coincidence, and what about it pointed you toward a particular god, rather than some nebulous cosmic force (assuming that is indeed what you came to believe)? What about the opposite? I have never at any point in my life had anything that could be described as faith. I've questioned it, thought about it quite alot, discussed it and had what I think are deeply 'spiritual' experiences that made me question my lack of it but ultimately after a lot of well, soul searching, strengthened my view. It irritates me when I get the argument that faith is the default position and get handwaved with some 'the plural of anecdote is not data'. I was never exposed to it, my parents both had negative experiences so decided to wait until we were old enough to understand the question and at that point I'd long ago decided the concept was ludicrous. I think one of the biggest factor was I was given this when i was 8 (When it first came out, yes I'm loving old). It laid out all the major religions in a just the facts way probably because the author wasn't american. I was a voracious reader and spent alot of time with a dictionary and bugging my parents about words and concepts I didn't understand yet. And yes, those experiences were under the influence. Multiple chemicals that each had their own different experience that brought my view into question in a different way but all ended up reinforcing it. The 'soul searching' was always sober, the drugs just asked the question but I had to work out the answer afterwords.
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Jun 13, 2016 04:26
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A lot of rationally-thinking people end up frustrated by the mystical emphasis on paradox, and end up dismissing stuff like Zen koans (for example) as being merely spooky nonsense. The religiously-minded person would respond that these paradoxes are the only possible articulations of a truth which is fundamentally difficult and illogical. It's not that a lot of religion isn't a shell game, or a con; the Marxist critique of religion is a completely valid one. But it's not all bullshit. And the parts that are nonbullshit often end up being the poetry: the actual words of Jesus, for example, or the important parts of the Vedas. "Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." Anyway. I hope that clarifies.
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Jun 13, 2016 04:34
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You could perhaps articulate that more accurately as "the bible has some nice quotes in it."
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Jun 13, 2016 04:36
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I actually agree with pretty much everything in the NT and think the world would be a much better place if people followed it. What I disagree with is teaching that you need to follow it under duress or fear of hell. You follow it because its the right way to live.
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Jun 13, 2016 04:44
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I think this is the right attitude, and that Jesus would probably have agreed with you. I've probably overstayed my welcome here, eh. Thanks for your tolerance, everyone; it's been a nice thread.
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Jun 13, 2016 04:55
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Subyng posted:God believers: do you recognize that a belief in any one particular God (most notably God of the Abrahamic religions) is irrational and illogical? And that to willingly act in irrational and illogical ways is, in short, stupid? I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but "stupid" really is the most apt word. Now I recognize that humans aren't perfectly rational beings. For example, if I injure my leg doing squats, but decide the next day to keep doing squats rather than rest, that's undeniably irrational, illogical, and stupid, if my goal is to not hurt myself. Yet I might do it anyway due to some irrational desire, and I would recognize that I'm doing something stupid because of a desire/belief that I cannot rationalize. Likewise, do you recognize that your belief is most likely the result of the circumstance of your upbringing, rooted in a part of your brain that has nothing to do with rational thought and logic, and that it doesn't really make sense, but you believe it anyway "just because"? Or do you honestly believe that God is a truth of the universe in the same way that 1+1=2 is a truth of the universe? You are not very good in not being inflammatory. You also failed to address specific reasons, experiences and beliefs that God believers in this thread had already provided and instead you opted for a poorly thought-out blanket statement. Your post could most aptly be described as "stupid". To give a simple answer anyway, suppose you could do X and live a happier life. X isn't costly, doesn't hurt anyone, is easy to practice and can get you support from other people who also do X. Why wouldn't you do X? Well, for many people X is having a set of beliefs and speaking with God in inner voice. You can scrutinize their beliefs and prove that they are not 100% consistent and logical, but neither are love, friendship, law, sports, enjoying of art, family relations, education... I think that it would be much more irrational and illogical to discard X and thus live a less happy life. I just tried to show you that "why you keep hurting yourself, it's illogical" can be easily framed as "why you keep feeling good, it's illogical" and it loses sense. I'm not saying this is the motivation behind all believers and it's certainly not an all-encompassing explanation of religion.
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Jun 13, 2016 08:52
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Griffen posted:My belief in God has been built over the years by His continual presence in my life and what He has done for me. Despite being brought up in a church, my theology has been developed solely from my own study of His word and my experiences, not from what someone else has told me. I do not believe anything "just because" but have faith in my Creator because even today does He still reach out to help in my my times of need and to make manifest in my life the love He has for me. God is a fundamental truth in the universe and in my life because He has said "test me in this; ask and you shall receive, seek, and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened," and He has never failed me yet. If someone tells me something, I might question it; if I see it for myself, I might consider it; if I experience it for myself, I know it to be true. Can you go into any more detail about what God has done for you and how he is a presence? I know you started off posting about feeling as if he's guiding you or walking beside you, can you describe that more? I don't think I've ever had that feeling. I don't really get it. I can't comprehend simply 'feeling' something so strongly that I become convinced it's the truth. Also, what happens to that feeling when your life gets poo poo, how can you feel like God is beside you and loves you and helps you when terrible things are happening? I know you said God redeems tragedies, but I felt like either you were implying that people brought the tragedies on themselves, or that, well, God just has a form of love that we can't understand. (Or are people who have unhappy lives just not faithful enough?) e: Also, directed to everyone: what do you think about this quote? A lot of people think that the idea of God is comforting and that atheism would be scary; this expresses the opposite. Is the idea of God existing scary or disturbing to you in any way despite your belief? Is anyone a RELUCTANT believer? quote:I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that. Prism Mirror Lens fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 13:59
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I said I'd post it, so here we go. I grew up in a fairly lax household. Mom is an observing baptist, Dad's a lapsed Mormon and we were given kind of our own roads growing up. I had a super-fundamentalist friend growing up in California, but other than that and church on Sundays I never really got into it. We stopped going after my parents separated and the family moved to Kansas (Mom found a job in Cali), and I just kind of fell into an apathetic view on belief. I didn't care, didn't have to go anywhere on Sundays, never really reached out to explore anything different. It worked for me, and I was low enough on the social totem pole that none of the other kids cared if I went anyways. When a friend of mine died during a swimming accident, I didn't blame God. Sure, I had the crisis that a lot of people have when faced with the duality of a loving creator who takes the best from us and leaves us assholes, but I chalked it up to either cosmic indifference or ineffability. Nothing to be done about it either way. I only really started to research my own beliefs after I had joined the military. I was one of those few dumb kids who waxed the killzone every Sunday at the barracks in Basic, because the idea of going to Church didn't really settle with me. And going through AIT and my first station in Korea, I got to talk about and deliberate my faith with other people who actually listened/gave a gently caress about what I was saying. It felt great! I don't think I ever got into it hardcore with them, never called anyone an idiot or such. Then my first tour in Iraq hit and, due to my own social outcast status and having tons of free time to read at my job, I dove into atheism hard. I joined reddit. I read Hitchens poorly. I argued with people over religion (Then again, we did have a chaplain who said we were on a holy mission over there, so I had some good targets) and I kept at it throughout my time at another MOS school, another post and another trip to Iraq. The second trip calmed me down a lot, though I still ended up acting like an insufferable rear end in a top hat now and again. I started to look back over my own arguments to see the flaws and the long shots. I realized where I could improve, where I could balance myself out. I still kept going to reddit, though. Only after I got back and went to Korea again did I really start to coalesce to where I am now and have been for about five years. I identify myself as an agnostic atheist, with a humanist bent and some slight dashes of transhumanism, self-determinism and progressivism for some of my farther out-there thoughts. I am an amalgamation of my views, the shards of different ideals broken and brought together to make what I see as a greater whole. I don't believe there's anything out there looking after us, but that's fine. We've done fairly well so far without it, and we can do even better as we move into the future.
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Jun 13, 2016 14:30
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:
Without any other context I have no clue what the root of this quote even is. Does the existence of God somehow make the universe less special? I don't believe so, if anything I think it makes it more beautiful. Like I said I believe in free will and evolution and all, for me it's not 'God snapped his fingers and boom, Earth, people, trees, donezo'. I think that God is guiding force, and I think the idea that the world and humanity and the universe has developed with his occasional bumps and all is something beautiful, because it shows this concept that's greater than us individually guided us to a path that led to us existing. See, because if that's how the universe works then that means we're all connected by the same thing, regardless of what we as individuals choose to call it. I think it's kinda a beautiful idea that this entire universe at least shares one common bond that we were guided by the same hand, and I suppose it's a cultural difference but I don't know how that can be a scary way for the universe to be.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:26
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I'm leaving it fairly context-less because people have different ideas of what God is. But fear of God isn't an uncommon motivator to believe. Atheism can give you the reassurance that there are no universal moral laws handed down by an omnipotent authority, there is no injunction but to enjoy yourself, nobody will judge you at the end of your life, you'll just cease to exist and all your problems and failures will be forgotten in time. The idea of a Judeo-Christian God rigidly forbidding us to do certain things we don't personally find morally objectionable (homosexuality), creating (at least the conditions for) clearly morally objectionable diseases and parasites, and threatening to eternally condemn us is obviously completely terrifying. Even the idea of just 'some sort of higher power' is worrying - what properties/values does it have, what does it want from us? To me, if God is a guiding force, it seems to be a fairly inept or uncaring one. And that's scarier than the idea that NOBODY is at the helm. If I was somehow convinced via supernatural event or whatever that God exists, no matter how loving it purported to be, I'd be bricking it tbh
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Jun 13, 2016 17:01
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For me the idea of a God that would take our free will away just to be sure nothing bad happened is a much more frightening idea than one who allows free will to happen warts and all. There's a belief in many Jewish sects that God's laws don't exist in a vacuum. For example the 'hey don't gently caress men, men' rule came at a time when the children of Israel were a tiny fraction of the world who were constantly running from their enemies and being slaughtered. There's a valid case for 'you should probably be making babies if you have time to bone' being a decent rule to have. The world changes, and the laws that must be followed are the ones that stand the test of time. Love your neighbor, show mercy, trust in God, keep your faith even through the darkest times, these are the things that no matter what era we're in my people have found to be true virtues, these are the roots of what God taught us. I believe that God's greatest gift to us was this free will, and to deny it by blindly following is to deny him. In my faith our spiritual leaders are teachers, not voices for God directly. We study the word of God as a sacred task because to study it is to question it and to debate it and to argue it and to teach it to to others. I genuinely believe the greatest way we can honor the fact that God guided us into being these imperfect but free human beings we are now is to look at his word and question it. Even in our most orthodox sects this weird idea that somehow it's a noble goal to find loopholes in God's laws exists. The idea that we find a balance between the letter and spirit of the law is important, and to blindly say one must be 100% more than the other is a lazy path. If you look at the vastness of the laws of God there are common themes Honoring those higher than you but being kind to those lower. We're told to love our allies, show mercy to our enemies, but never allow ourselves to be doormats that can be conquered, balancing those is a virtue in all our great heroes. Most importantly, though, most of them have moments when they fail that balance. We're humans, and humans are fantastic things but we're not perfect, and what makes me a Jewish man is that I truly in my soul believe that through God I can be...less imperfect. I'll never be perfect in this life, but I can be better, and I think that's still a good thing to want. I may be wrong, that's also an important aspect of my faith, the understanding that I don't know everything. I may be wrong, and if I am then I'll have to answer to God for my wrongness. I've accepted that and I'm not afraid of that because the entire point is after I've atoned and been freed of my sins then I'll be closer to God. I can't speak for other faiths, but for me a fear of God isn't eternal, it's less a genuine terror at him and more an...awe. It's like a thunderstorm. I 'fear' thunderstorms, because they're greater than me, and they really can't be bargained with or argued with or whatever, you just have to trust you've set things up so that you can stand in front of one and come out alright. I don't think that's a bad thing, I think it's amazing. In gothic fiction and imagery a word is used, sublime. To be sublime means to be so beautiful and grand and amazing that it creates a feeling of awe and fear and admiration all in one because it's applied to things that are, say, part of nature, part of the world beyond man. They're things that remind man that even as we're civilized and evolved, we're still in a world that's larger than what we've built. God, to me, is sublime in that sense. Fear is a component, but to boil it down to just fear is to ignore so much more. I don't trust people who claim to be 'god-fearing' as a virtue, I think to be god-fearing is a flaw, because it means you're focusing on the noise of thunder and the danger of lightning strikes, and missing the fact that it's amazing that the storm exists at all.
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Jun 13, 2016 17:25
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When you say "free will", could you expound on what you mean by that?
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Jun 13, 2016 17:32
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I don't really "believe" in God, exactly. I think it'd be nice if He existed. I have almost no faith, inasmuch as His existence seems wildly improbable. But my church is nice to everybody, and the hymns are pleasant. And if you accept Aristotle's position (as I do) that the good life is the virtuous life, Pascal's Wager becomes essentially a freeroll.
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Jun 13, 2016 17:33
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Griffen posted:Honestly, I do not really think about whether they exist or not. God, as He has made himself known to us through the prophets and His son Christ Jesus, is all sufficient for me, and I need no other. If I had to answer the question, shooting from the hip so to speak, I'd guess they don't exist as products of man, or are man's attempt to identify God and yet have chosen not to use the revelations He has provided (either through choice or simply never having heard the gospel). Even if there were other gods that existed, God has made Himself known to me in my life and I will have no other god before Him in my life. Therefore their existence or non-existence are irrelevant to me. Purely to provoke more discussion, let me ask: what of those who say God revealed himself through the Quran and the prophet Mohammed? Your position seems to be that those who disbelieve Christianity do so by deliberately rejecting God and the legitimate methods of revelation he's utilized, but I'm certain members of other faiths are under the impression that they are being perfectly obedient to God - just the wrong one, in your view. You say it's choice, but I feel it's more of an honest mistake; what do you make of someone sincerely attempting to know God but just by accident of birth landing on the wrong one? Assume the same answer for all your other parameters: that they also feel God has made himself known to them, that they have also experienced God, etc. Maybe another way to put it: how do you differentiate legitimate religious experience from illegitimate?
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Jun 13, 2016 17:43
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Who What Now posted:When you say "free will", could you expound on what you mean by that? I mean to boil it down to probably extremely too boiled down points, I think that functionally speaking God guided us on our path of creation, he set rules for the correct path of living, and there's nothing in the world stopping us from going 'nah' and ignoring them. Like, the dickbag in Orlando, I don't believe a demon jumped into him or whatever, I believe he was a human being who chose to do a horrifically evil thing. Same with, say, King David. I don't believe he was some divine, special, man, I believe he was a good man who chose to follow and obey God and was rewarded. I'm losing a lot of nuance here but yea, to me free will is exactly what it says on the tin, we as human beings are free to choose our path in life, for better or for worse.
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Jun 13, 2016 17:44
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:Can you go into any more detail about what God has done for you and how he is a presence? I know you started off posting about feeling as if he's guiding you or walking beside you, can you describe that more? I don't think I've ever had that feeling. I don't really get it. I can't comprehend simply 'feeling' something so strongly that I become convinced it's the truth. Sure, I'll give it a try. A more personal example is that mental or emotional issues can run in my family, which means I have some inner demons that I have to fight with a lot. There have been many times that when I struggle with these issues that God is there to help me with them. Having Him literally calm the storms in my soul over and over again is just one of the ways He lets me know He is here. It's hard to describe it in a way that will really be meaningful for other people, much like trying to explain how your significant other makes everything better. For me, it is how He brings order to chaos in my life, peace into turbulence. Prism Mirror Lens posted:Also, what happens to that feeling when your life gets poo poo, how can you feel like God is beside you and loves you and helps you when terrible things are happening? I know you said God redeems tragedies, but I felt like either you were implying that people brought the tragedies on themselves, or that, well, God just has a form of love that we can't understand. (Or are people who have unhappy lives just not faithful enough?) It has been true in my life that God shines the brightest when life is the darkest. It is all too easy during times of ease and happiness to think that it came about through my own efforts and forget about God. When I am in distress is when I turn the most to Him, selfish as it is, and yet He is there to meet me. There has been a time where the only thing that would get me out of bed is to repeat the first stanza of the poem Invictus; granted, I interpreted it slightly differently than the author, since "whatever gods may be" wasn't applicable to me, but the thought that God granted me an unconquerable soul gave me strength. As for redeeming tragedies, I do not mean that people brought them on themselves, but rather, much like the case in Orlando yesterday, people can make terrible choices and hurt others. God gave us free will to make our own decisions, even bad ones that hurt other people, but God is willing and able to meet us in the tragedy, help us through it, and bring about good despite people making evil actions. Thus I won't say that tragedies are God's plan, but rather that tragedies cannot stop God from loving us and meeting us where we need Him. Prism Mirror Lens posted:e: Also, directed to everyone: what do you think about this quote? A lot of people think that the idea of God is comforting and that atheism would be scary; this expresses the opposite. Is the idea of God existing scary or disturbing to you in any way despite your belief? Is anyone a RELUCTANT believer? I'm honestly confused. It is a great comfort to me to know that the God of the universe considers me and you worth loving, worth saving. Consider the Norse concept of Ragnarok (as explained to me, so apologies for errors) where the Norse gods must struggle mightily against looming destruction, knowing that they cannot succeed no matter what they do. That to me is the essence of despair; replace demons, or whatever is in Norse mythology, with entropy and now you have an atheist's Ragnarok. Instead, I know that victory is assured, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39. If you consider a God that loves us that much, why would His existence be something to fear? I welcome it! The only thing I can think of is the fear of condemnation, if someone is living a life they know they should not be. You don't have to be afraid of God because of that, because He is ready to forgive us should we turn to Him, so we need not fear judgement, or oblivion, or whatever. Instead we can embrace life, knowing that "for me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21. Prism Mirror Lens posted:I'm leaving it fairly context-less because people have different ideas of what God is. But fear of God isn't an uncommon motivator to believe. Atheism can give you the reassurance that there are no universal moral laws handed down by an omnipotent authority, there is no injunction but to enjoy yourself, nobody will judge you at the end of your life, you'll just cease to exist and all your problems and failures will be forgotten in time. The idea of a Judeo-Christian God rigidly forbidding us to do certain things we don't personally find morally objectionable (homosexuality), creating (at least the conditions for) clearly morally objectionable diseases and parasites, and threatening to eternally condemn us is obviously completely terrifying. Even the idea of just 'some sort of higher power' is worrying - what properties/values does it have, what does it want from us? I think this answers the above of why people fear existence of God, because it inherently means they have to change their ways. People today don't like the idea of being responsible for their actions, instead seeking to buy now pay later, or as you say "cease to exist and all your problems and failures will be forgotten in time." As for "rigidly forbidding us to do certain things we don't personally find morally objectionable" that speaks to moral relativism, which is really just a way to defend actions we take from others judging us. Many people have done evil things because they thought they were moral. You might find the notion of Divine Morality to be an odd bronze-age abstraction, but I find moral relativism even more baffling, a case of "if you stand for nothing you will fall for anything." At least I can see the logic within the framework God sets out in his Word. As for "the idea of just 'some sort of higher power' is worrying - what properties/values does it have, what does it want from us," that is easy: God is a God of justice who has designed a wonderful creation in you and wants you to fulfill all that He has planned for you. To do that, you must turn to His way, and He is there to meet you and carry you through, to give you mercy and forgiveness when you fail. God loves you, and gave us all the grace of bridging that gap between God and Man by Himself to show it. Think about it: God Himself came down to meet us face to face and give us the chance to choose Him. Man rejected and tried to kill Him, but He turned that rejection into the sacrifice that takes our sin from us as an affirmation of His love for us. He rose from the dead to show that he breaks the chains of death and sin and promises us to be with us wherever we go, should we let Him into our lives. God wants us to love Him like He loves us. What have we to fear from that? Prism Mirror Lens posted:To me, if God is a guiding force, it seems to be a fairly inept or uncaring one. And that's scarier than the idea that NOBODY is at the helm. If I was somehow convinced via supernatural event or whatever that God exists, no matter how loving it purported to be, I'd be bricking it tbh Again, God is omnipotent, but we are not puppets. He gives us the freedom to choose our lives, and sometimes that means people choose terrible things. God doesn't want us to choose to do evil on each other, but He gave us the ability to make that choice; instead He calls us to another path and gives us the help we need to make it happen. What we choose then is on us. As for bickering with God, that actually happens several times in the Bible; each time is rather heart warming to be honest, because it shows just how much patience and understanding God has to meet us at our level. There is much that can be gained from the book of Job on this subject, because ultimately it is about "why do bad things happen to good people." The honest answer is that life is more complex and complicated than we can understand. If we concede the existence of God, one who can make the universe and all within it, would that not by definition imply that He is going to be beyond our comprehension, much like trying to imagine a 4-dimensional object? Just because we cannot understand a complex system does not mean that it is not ordered. Much like a parent to a child, God is asking us to trust Him. Yes, there is an element of the unknown in trusting, as we have to let go of the illusion of control, but He hasn't failed me yet.
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Jun 13, 2016 17:47
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I mean to boil it down to probably extremely too boiled down points, I think that functionally speaking God guided us on our path of creation, he set rules for the correct path of living, and there's nothing in the world stopping us from going 'nah' and ignoring them. But how "free" is our free will? Is it part of our physical brains, or does our free will derive from something non-physical? If you believe in the concept of an all-knowing God how do you rectify the concept of a free will with God knowing what action you will take before hand? Edit: What would a "violation" of free will look like? If someone chooses to, say, eat and apple and I take the apple away from them have I denied them their free will? What if the prevention is proactive, such as imprisonment, is that a violation of the prisoner's free will to leave prison? Who What Now fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 18:07
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Who What Now posted:But how "free" is our free will? Is it part of our physical brains, or does our free will derive from something non-physical? If you believe in the concept of an all-knowing God how do you rectify the concept of a free will with God knowing what action you will take before hand? I mean now we're in an argument that's been part of faith since the beginning. I don't know how 'free' our will is. I think an all knowing god doesn't mean free will doesn't exist, though. I don't believe God's very much in the business of jumping in and saying 'woah woah woah no no don't do that', so the fact that God knows what I'll do doesn't mean it affects me in any way. I think if I really had to dig into it I believe free will is about how we live our lives rather than its actual end result. I believe myself to have free will, I believe that I do not know where my life will end up, and because of that I live my life in a way fitting that. It doesn't matter that beyond me this being that I can't even reach knows my end path because I don't, and even if every single choice I make has been written in stone for this great beyond force for me it's a choice, and my life is richer for following my choices for better or worse. As for the edit, to channel my inner stereotype let me answer that with a question of my own. If you chose to take an apple from someone who chose to eat it, are you 'violating free will' or is the fact that two people's wills can be allowed to conflict the entire point of free will?
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Jun 13, 2016 18:17
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The illusion of free will is just as important sometimes.
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Jun 13, 2016 18:20
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I mean now we're in an argument that's been part of faith since the beginning. I don't know how 'free' our will is. I think an all knowing god doesn't mean free will doesn't exist, though. I don't believe God's very much in the business of jumping in and saying 'woah woah woah no no don't do that', so the fact that God knows what I'll do doesn't mean it affects me in any way. Can you really say they are your choices when there was no other options available to you? Is "You can choose [A] or you can choose [A]" really a choice? It may superficially seem like you exercised free will, but to me that isn't any different than handing a younger sibling an unplugged controller so that they "feel" like they're playing the game with you when in fact they aren't doing anything at all. Furthermore, if all your choices are set in stone long before you "make" them then can you realistically be held culpable for their outcomes? quote:As for the edit, to channel my inner stereotype let me answer that with a question of my own. If you chose to take an apple from someone who chose to eat it, are you 'violating free will' or is the fact that two people's wills can be allowed to conflict the entire point of free will? I don't believe in free will at all, but in that instance I would say my free will trumped theirs in that specific instance, which brings up issues of who's will wins, when, and why. Edit: And it's fine not to have any answers to these questions. I don't expect you to solve questions that have been plaguing philosophers for ages. I'm looking to have a better insight into your positions, not trap you in any kind of "gotcha" situation. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 18:25
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Who What Now posted:Can you really say they are your choices when there was no other options available to you? Is "You can choose [A] or you can choose [A]" really a choice? It may superficially seem like you exercised free will, but to me that isn't any different than handing a younger sibling an unplugged controller so that they "feel" like they're playing the game with you when in fact they aren't doing anything at all. Furthermore, if all your choices are set in stone long before you "make" them then can you realistically be held culpable for their outcomes? yea no we're good, you're not being a dick, I'm actually really surprised how a thread about 'why do you believe in god' on the internet seems be mostly genuine conversation. Yea honestly this kinda comes down to 'I dunno, I have faith that this is how the world works and that's good enough for me'. I believe that because in my perspective the choices are genuine that's what matters. I might not have 'really' made the choice in the grand cosmic sense, but in my perspective I did, and that affects how I live my life. Along with that, not every choice is 'A or B'. I wake up in the morning, yea the idea of an all knowing god means God knows that I'm gonna go use the last of my toothpaste, get busy in the day, forget to buy more, wake up the next morning, and brush my teeth with mouthwash because I forgot toothpaste. These are choices I made that yea, he knows the answer to, but didn't I still 'learn' in an incredibly minor way 'hey idiot don't put off shopping for needed poo poo'? Not everything is 'shoot the baby' vs 'give the baby candy' kinda Bioware moral choices, many choices just shape how your week goes and how your week goes shapes how you treat others and how you treat others shapes how others see you and so on and so on until these choices all matter in their own ways as choices.
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Jun 13, 2016 18:41
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Purely to provoke more discussion, let me ask: what of those who say God revealed himself through the Quran and the prophet Mohammed? Your position seems to be that those who disbelieve Christianity do so by deliberately rejecting God and the legitimate methods of revelation he's utilized, but I'm certain members of other faiths are under the impression that they are being perfectly obedient to God - just the wrong one, in your view. You say it's choice, but I feel it's more of an honest mistake; what do you make of someone sincerely attempting to know God but just by accident of birth landing on the wrong one? Assume the same answer for all your other parameters: that they also feel God has made himself known to them, that they have also experienced God, etc. Honestly? This is outside my area of experience, so I don't really know. The Catholic Church holds the position that God can reach out through any structure to reach us, so maybe other religions are Man's attempt to reach God while waiting for the message to be brought to them. If someone has never heard the gospel, I doubt God would condemn them for that, but instead judge them by whether they reached out to Him as best they could. So yes, I would think they can still achieve a religious experience without being Christian. I heard of an Indian man who was a indentured slave in a brick factory speak of his conversion moment, when he prayed to God not out of any personal knowledge, but simply to the god his mother followed, and God answered him, which led to his learning more and later conversion. Those that do hear the gospel are judged by whether they respond to it, because they have been given the truth and they either choose it, or reject it. I've heard some converts from other religions speak, and their experiences vary. One muslim woman I heard spoke about how she felt liberated upon reading the Bible. I don't want to say too much about how other people experience it, since it feels like putting words in their mouth to me, and I know little of their lives. As for the last question, "how do you differentiate legitimate religious experience from illegitimate," I personally cannot aways distinguish it. I am a mortal man, I cannot look at someone or something and say "yep, God did that," or "nope, God didn't do that" in their lives with perfect accuracy. I can see something that might bear His fingerprints, so to speak, or I can see something that He would never do, but I can be wrong.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:17
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Tatum Girlparts posted:yea no we're good, you're not being a dick, I'm actually really surprised how a thread about 'why do you believe in god' on the internet seems be mostly genuine conversation. Thanks. I try to tailor my demeanor to the topic and the audience. quote:Yea honestly this kinda comes down to 'I dunno, I have faith that this is how the world works and that's good enough for me'. I believe that because in my perspective the choices are genuine that's what matters. I might not have 'really' made the choice in the grand cosmic sense, but in my perspective I did, and that affects how I live my life. Sure, and I understand that free will is a useful shorthand / placeholder in a lot of regards. For example, I firmly believe that my thoughts are a byproduct of the electro-chemical reactions happening in my brain and nervous system in response to external stimuli, none of which I have any control over. If that weren't the case then I probably wouldn't be on the regimen of medications I'm on in order to try and correct my particular combination of brain chemicals. But that's knowledge isn't particularly useful in a practical day-to-day sense. Assuming that we do have a sort of control over our actions and the world around us is still the best way we have of ensuring society continues to function. After all, by my beliefs someone who commits murder is no more responsible for their actions than a schizophrenic is for hearing voices, or for a rock falling off a cliff and crushing a person for that matter. But civilization would break down if we accepted that, so we act as if people are ultimately responsible. It's a useful lie in my view. But I suppose what I don't understand is what free will offers to you, in regards to your belief in God? quote:Along with that, not every choice is 'A or B'. I wake up in the morning, yea the idea of an all knowing god means God knows that I'm gonna go use the last of my toothpaste, get busy in the day, forget to buy more, wake up the next morning, and brush my teeth with mouthwash because I forgot toothpaste. These are choices I made that yea, he knows the answer to, but didn't I still 'learn' in an incredibly minor way 'hey idiot don't put off shopping for needed poo poo'? Not everything is 'shoot the baby' vs 'give the baby candy' kinda Bioware moral choices, many choices just shape how your week goes and how your week goes shapes how you treat others and how you treat others shapes how others see you and so on and so on until these choices all matter in their own ways as choices. Well, yes and no. I was using simple choices for the sake of argument, and you're right that our choices are often a lot more complicated than a simple A or B choice. However, that being said, each choice can still be broken down into negation statements. For breakfast you either will or you will not eat an apple. You either will or you will not eat an orange. You either will or will not eat your cat with your bare hands (almost certainly will not, but it's technically an option, if a horrifically grizzly one). And so on so on so forth for every potential possibility you could choose to eat. But we almost never take the time to frame our decisions in that way, because it's faster and easier to just skip over the absurd possibilities like eating a pet and instead focus on others. And we do this automatically, often without realizing. We also tend to lump multiple decisions in together as another time saving measure. But, besides me being pointlessly pedantic, I agree with the substance of your point; we're a culmination of all of our "decisions", and past decisions affect future ones. At least, I think that was your point? I may have lost track.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:21
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Griffen posted:Honestly? This is outside my area of experience, so I don't really know. The Catholic Church holds the position that God can reach out through any structure to reach us, so maybe other religions are Man's attempt to reach God while waiting for the message to be brought to them. If someone has never heard the gospel, I doubt God would condemn them for that, but instead judge them by whether they reached out to Him as best they could. So yes, I would think they can still achieve a religious experience without being Christian. I heard of an Indian man who was a indentured slave in a brick factory speak of his conversion moment, when he prayed to God not out of any personal knowledge, but simply to the god his mother followed, and God answered him, which led to his learning more and later conversion. Those that do hear the gospel are judged by whether they respond to it, because they have been given the truth and they either choose it, or reject it. I've heard some converts from other religions speak, and their experiences vary. One muslim woman I heard spoke about how she felt liberated upon reading the Bible. I don't want to say too much about how other people experience it, since it feels like putting words in their mouth to me, and I know little of their lives. Well, I suppose I'm not really asking about those who have never heard the Gospel at all, more of those who were raised, say, in a Muslim society, and who are aware that Christians and/or the Bible exists, but for whom that scripture and that testimony do nothing. People that give the Bible that cursory glance and dismiss it with as much alacrity as you might dismiss the Quran. Perhaps I just need clarification on what you think theologically: is belief in Jesus necessary for salvation? Can one be a devout Muslim - who is aware of Christianity but thinks of it as a false religion - get into heaven? And yes, there are stories of Muslims reading the Bible and being comforted, but let's not rely on anecdotes - I know there are stories the other way around, where a Christian felt something in Islam and was moved to convert to it. quote:As for the last question, "how do you differentiate legitimate religious experience from illegitimate," I personally cannot aways distinguish it. I am a mortal man, I cannot look at someone or something and say "yep, God did that," or "nope, God didn't do that" in their lives with perfect accuracy. I can see something that might bear His fingerprints, so to speak, or I can see something that He would never do, but I can be wrong. Right, but the point is you seem to be claiming that ability nonetheless; you've cited your experiences of God as a reason to believe, so how do you know they are indeed experiences of God? Let's make it much simpler: if a Christian and a Muslim both felt some powerful feeling of love while praying, and both were moved to cite that as evidence of their respective Gods, how do you know that the Christian was experiencing the real God, and the Muslim was mistaken? Why is it not the other way around?
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Jun 13, 2016 19:33
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FilthIncarnate posted:I've probably overstayed my welcome here, eh. Your posts are fine man (my only complaint is your formatting, with the line skipping stuff). You seem to have some pretty low self-esteem but you're not saying anything that is remotely bad or offensive. I'm sure that other people would be fine with you continuing to post.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:34
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Yea that's what I was driving at, we're the sum of countless choices we and others have made in the past. Yea this really doesn't do anything for my day to day life. It's not like I wake up every morning go 'whoo! Free will! Let's go make some choices and see what results I get!' It's more for when I'm looking back at things. Like, surprising no one I'm sure yesterday really made me kinda examine my faith, and I still kinda am. I do this by looking back on what I've done in my life, and basically looking for God in these things. I've made a lot of fuckups, like, probably more than my reasonable share, and some of them have genuinely come near destroying my life. I've also made a lot of good choices, and those choices have saved my life in other ways. When I look at these I see choices I made, good or bad. Maybe God knew in his grand plan that I'd be a junkie, maybe he saw a couple of my friends dying, maybe he saw me getting clean and knew that was my path. I still feel as if I've chosen how I reacted to those things, even if my choices were written in some great cosmic book how they shaped me is what made me who I am, and because of that I see God in the choices even if they were predetermined. I was wrong in the other post, because free will is more than the literal ability to choose things. Free will is living with your choices too. Free will is a responsibility as much as it is a gift, because it comes with the assumed agreement that because I'm free to pick A or B, I don't get to go 'uh poo poo, do-over right?' if B is a bad choice. If I didn't have free will I wouldn't even acknowledge the other options, because they don't matter, because there's no choice involved, and then there's no 'living' with what you pick. It's hard to have to 'accept' something when it's your only path, your acceptance doesn't really matter then. I guess if I can put on my big fancy God beard and pretend to know what God thinks, I think God knows the points. I think he knew the path I'd take, but I don't think he knew what it would do to me. It's like having a map. If I have a map I know objectively the path I'll take, but I don't know what that path will actually BE like until I've taken it. I think in the grand scheme that God has the map, but you still have to take the routes, and that's where it actually matters. I kinda think at the end of the day God doesn't really care about how we feel. I think 'all knowing' and 'all feeling' are exclusive paths. It's not to say he doesn't love us, but I think for God to be God I think he'd have to be such a thing beyond any humanity that for him to genuinely care about our emotions it'd be like you trying to care about an ant's emotion. You can love an ant, you can want nothing but the best for an ant, but have you genuinely ever wondered how an ant feels about living in a pile of dirt on your lawn? Has an ant's emotions ever caused you to alter your plans for the day? I think to be God, to be all knowing, with a grand plan for humanity, I think caring about emotions would be impossible, because I don't know how a being who cares about our emotions can have a plan that involves free will, and pain, and suffering, and all that. I think if he cared about that stuff we'd be perfectly happy as a race, never warring never wanting never hurting, but also not humans. We'd be some weird drone alien sci-fi poo poo, and I guess even if free will has really hurt me in the past, I'm happy to be a human and not a weird god-drone.
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Jun 13, 2016 19:45
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I cut out the first few paragraphs here because for the most part I agree with what you wrote, and where I didn't agree I can address below. But I'm glad we've found a piece of common ground about the nature of choices and how they shape who we are and how we act going forward. quote:I guess if I can put on my big fancy God beard and pretend to know what God thinks, I think God knows the points. I think he knew the path I'd take, but I don't think he knew what it would do to me. It's like having a map. If I have a map I know objectively the path I'll take, but I don't know what that path will actually BE like until I've taken it. I think in the grand scheme that God has the map, but you still have to take the routes, and that's where it actually matters. I kinda think at the end of the day God doesn't really care about how we feel. I think 'all knowing' and 'all feeling' are exclusive paths. It's not to say he doesn't love us, but I think for God to be God I think he'd have to be such a thing beyond any humanity that for him to genuinely care about our emotions it'd be like you trying to care about an ant's emotion. You can love an ant, you can want nothing but the best for an ant, but have you genuinely ever wondered how an ant feels about living in a pile of dirt on your lawn? Has an ant's emotions ever caused you to alter your plans for the day? I don't think that ants are even capable of feeling emotion, which is why I don't worry about it. But if it were shown that, yes, ants really do have a full range of emotion like they do in, say, A Bug's Life then I'd absolutely take the time to consider whether or not I should lay out some traps filled with poison or not. I don't want to cause undue suffering if it can be avoided, and I also want to actively minimize suffering when I can, especially when it would be trivial for me to do so like by not putting ant poison out. I care about my dog's and my cat's emotions all the time, to give a real life example. Their emotions, and their emotional well being, has caused me to alter my plans for the day all the time from taking the dog out for a walk and playing with her when I'd rather be playing the new DOOM or to making sure I get the healthier food options in order for our new cat to lose weight when the alternatives would be cheaper and more convenient for me. If ants have even half the emotional capability that my pets do I'll be forced to seriously reconsider how I treat them going forward. quote:I think to be God, to be all knowing, with a grand plan for humanity, I think caring about emotions would be impossible, because I don't know how a being who cares about our emotions can have a plan that involves free will, and pain, and suffering, and all that. I think if he cared about that stuff we'd be perfectly happy as a race, never warring never wanting never hurting, but also not humans. We'd be some weird drone alien sci-fi poo poo, and I guess even if free will has really hurt me in the past, I'm happy to be a human and not a weird god-drone. Why would it turn us into weird God-drones, though? We'd still be able to make your own choices between what would make you happiest, wouldn't you? I don't see how free will necessitates suffering as well, and I don't believe suffering is required to be a person.
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Jun 13, 2016 20:13
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Well, I suppose I'm not really asking about those who have never heard the Gospel at all, more of those who were raised, say, in a Muslim society, and who are aware that Christians and/or the Bible exists, but for whom that scripture and that testimony do nothing. People that give the Bible that cursory glance and dismiss it with as much alacrity as you might dismiss the Quran. The core essence of Christianity is that God came down to Earth in the form of Man (as Jesus), faced all our troubles, and died for us so that he as a sinless man could take the punishment for our sins in our place. If we wish to receive that forgiveness and grace, we must turn aside from a sinful life and follow Him, and He will accompany us along the way. Those who hear this message and reject it, reject Jesus, and thus reject God. As Jesus himself said, "no one comes to the Father except through me," John 14:6. GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Right, but the point is you seem to be claiming that ability nonetheless; you've cited your experiences of God as a reason to believe, so how do you know they are indeed experiences of God? Let's make it much simpler: if a Christian and a Muslim both felt some powerful feeling of love while praying, and both were moved to cite that as evidence of their respective Gods, how do you know that the Christian was experiencing the real God, and the Muslim was mistaken? Why is it not the other way around? Let me correct my previous post: I cannot tell for other people. I can see where God has moved in my life, but I can't always see that in other people's lives. Sometimes God is as obvious as the rolling thunder, and sometimes he comes as a still small whisper when you are alone in your darkest times.
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Jun 13, 2016 20:19
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Thanks for the very involved answers! A followup question then: in contrast to Tatum Girlparts's answers, you seem big on God's morals being absolute and as given in the Bible, with the exception of those laws that are no longer necessary. It's not choosing and revising, it's "here is God's will and following it is best even if you don't always understand it." Fair enough (personally I find that more coherent than the position that we CAN pick and choose - if God is almighty and all-knowing then I'd rather just follow what he said without trying to fiddle with it!), but afaik the current trend is that Christianity, and therefore strictly Christian morality, is on the decrease. So my question is, what do you think this is going to lead to? I assume that you would consider that there's a subsequent increase of some kinds of moral degeneracy (homosexuality or whatever). Do you think the world is getting worse? What if everyone eventually stops believing in a Christian God and so can't even be forgiven? Are we all doomed or what?
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Jun 13, 2016 20:28
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Griffen posted:Let me correct my previous post: I cannot tell for other people. I can see where God has moved in my life, but I can't always see that in other people's lives. Sometimes God is as obvious as the rolling thunder, and sometimes he comes as a still small whisper when you are alone in your darkest times. Right, but you seem to be saying "I don't really know" while at the same time, in practice, proceeding as if you know for certain. You are saying you don't really know for sure what things are and are not experiences of God while at the same time portraying a de facto view that all non-Christian "experiences of God" must be something else, must be mistaken by definition. I'm just wondering how you know this, or if you really aren't sure about the experiences of others, why you are certain that Christianity is true.
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Jun 13, 2016 20:33
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:I'm leaving it fairly context-less because people have different ideas of what God is. But fear of God isn't an uncommon motivator to believe. Atheism can give you the reassurance that there are no universal moral laws handed down by an omnipotent authority, there is no injunction but to enjoy yourself, nobody will judge you at the end of your life, you'll just cease to exist and all your problems and failures will be forgotten in time. The idea of a Judeo-Christian God rigidly forbidding us to do certain things we don't personally find morally objectionable (homosexuality), creating (at least the conditions for) clearly morally objectionable diseases and parasites, and threatening to eternally condemn us is obviously completely terrifying. Even the idea of just 'some sort of higher power' is worrying - what properties/values does it have, what does it want from us? I can remember the first time (I was definitely under 10) I really thought about there not being an afterlife, I was terrified. The complete extinguishing of your consciousness - no light, no dark, just nothing. I am still afraid but tell myself that my death is a long time away (hopefully). Question for the thread: What is God? A thing/everything? The universe itself? A mind/all minds? The position I've settled on is that an omnipotent being or the universe itself has no purpose: purpose only arises through need or want; if something is necessarily all powerful or is everything (that exists) in itself then how can that thing (or force or being) want or need anything. Why would it create a universe and life within that universe - any answers or experience would already exist within God. Giving God the qualities of needing or desiring love, entertainment, sacrifice etc. diminishes the power of God for me. For God to desire anything from the universe or from us would mean that it was limited in some way by its circumstances. To be restricted by circumstances means you exist within something else and so would not be God. I suppose I just believe that the ultimate, most basic structure of existence is unthinking and unfeeling. We could be in a simulation or be being tricked by a demon but there will always be the existential framework for the God figure's (demon, scientist, AI, whatever) existence. I don't think a mind (hence want, need and purpose) can exist without outside stimulus of some form. Why does God care what humans do?
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Jun 13, 2016 20:59
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Wafflecop posted:I can remember the first time (I was definitely under 10) I really thought about there not being an afterlife, I was terrified. The complete extinguishing of your consciousness - no light, no dark, just nothing. I am still afraid but tell myself that my death is a long time away (hopefully). To paraphrase Mark Twain, you didn't exist for billions of years before your birth and it didn't bother you one bit, so why should it bother you after death?
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Jun 13, 2016 21:08
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Wafflecop posted:I can remember the first time (I was definitely under 10) I really thought about there not being an afterlife, I was terrified. The complete extinguishing of your consciousness - no light, no dark, just nothing. I am still afraid but tell myself that my death is a long time away (hopefully). I think God is 'a thing' in the same way that gravity is 'a thing'. I don't think he's a dude with a big white beard chilling on a cloud pointing at naked dudes like some kinda creepy ET but I do think that there is a 'thingness' about it, I guess? Like I say 'him' and all just because that's how I've always been raised to call him, but I'm not expecting an actual 'him' or whatever. If I die and God's just a weird cloud of lights like Futurama I'd be all 'yea seems legit'. I do ascribe to him a more...this because there's no right words for it other than 'thingness' in my mind. I think that it'd be wrong to assume we know what things he wants and desires he has though. I praise God and all but I don't think he NEEDS it, I don't think there's some tally where every month he's all 'huh Tatum Girlparts didn't praise me as much as he normally does this quarter. Better give him the flu or something to gently caress with him'. I think the stories in which he punishes, say, a leader for refusing to give thanks and all are more about how presuming that you don't need any guidance or help at all can be dangerous, and arrogance and pride are bad qualities to have, you know? I don't think they're literal 'praise God x times or your rear end is on the line' because yea it feels like it diminishes him somewhat if this grand being that guided all creation also needs that creation to give him x amount of high fives a day. I think if he has one core desire that pretty much anyone can be safe filling it's simple faith. I think every culture and sect shares the belief that faith, genuine and real, can do great things. I think that's some kind of 'clue' I guess that if God does have true wants and desires he just wants faith in him from his creations. I think if there are other desires, if it turns out I really should halve also been offering a goat every other decade or whatever, I think real faith can cover any other debts you have to him. I think the answer to why he 'cares' what we do is a pretty simple one really. I think he cares because the lessons in the scripture and the guides to living a good life are objectively good ways to live. In the same way that your parent genuinely cares about what you do because, if they're a good parent, they're trying to instill a good way of living in you. And I think, much like a parent, I think he's more flexible on the minor things than the major. Like I said I was reform, that means I don't keep Kosher. I do on holidays or, say right now I do because I've been thinking my faith over and I feel that following as much of the 'old ways' as possible while trying to think about God isn't a bad idea. I don't believe I HAVE to, I don't follow every single Orthodox law right now, but I follow a couple, because I believe that there's some level of merit to them if at least as spiritual tools. Now, stuff like 'don't kill, don't blaspheme, don't give in to your vices' I think those are bigger issues. I think there's not a ton of wiggle room there because those are guides to genuinely living a good life. Me eating bacon or not eating bacon does not make me a good or bad person, but me, say, learning to control my anger and not lashing out at others, that does. To put it simply I think he cares because at the end of the day the rules are right. That's why I'm a Jew, I'm a pretty modernist guy but at some point you have to at least acknowledge that the core rules are are right to call yourself a spiritual Jew in my opinion. I think those rules are also pretty universal rules. I think everyone itt, Jew, Christian, Atheist, whatever, can agree 'you shouldn't kill people' is a solid bit of advice for the common man, that kinda stuff. That's also why I never went in with the whole 'oh no atheists just can't have morals' stuff. These morals are pretty universal values, it's just that my faith provides a filter and more detail about the granular stuff that I feel helps me live. I never believed I was somehow a more inherently moral person than any rando atheist off the street.
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Jun 13, 2016 21:36
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:I know there are stories the other way around, where a Christian felt something in Islam and was moved to convert to it. I mean, heck, I was raised Episcopalian and still have a fondness for the sect, but I felt something in a very specific branch of shakta Hinduism and was moved to convert to it. 
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Jun 13, 2016 21:38
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Who What Now posted:To paraphrase Mark Twain, you didn't exist for billions of years before your birth and it didn't bother you one bit, so why should it bother you after death? I'm guessing Twain read some Diogenes. Not that I fully buy his perspective, since being born and existing does change the game a bit.
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Jun 13, 2016 21:39
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