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Right. Are the Americans ok with the team balance? Four of our players have a copy of the game, and zero of theirs do. Out first order of business is going to be rebalancing our order of battle. We need to fill some of the infantry positions. I'd like to get a commander in each platoon. If you've signed up as the first section of an infantry platoon, please slot into an open second or third section instead, as we can have the platoon COs command the first (at least until we get more signups). We might consider consolidating the recon teams under a single player and have either Frozen or Pedro join the infantry. But most importantly, who is going to step up and be our infantry CO?
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Jun 14, 2016 22:03
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Saros posted:NOOoOOooooooo! 
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Jun 15, 2016 00:10
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Ok, things are shaping up. Working on a google spreadsheet to help get us organized. I'll also be creating a roll20. I'll post the links when I'm done, probably not for another 6 or 7 hours from now. Re. orbat, I don't want to be in direct command of all the vehicles. I see two alternatives:
Thoughts?
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Jun 15, 2016 00:46
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Wow, we're totally full! Thanks everyone for joining and filling out the thread. I'll post a spreadsheet shortly, but for now I've created a roll20. Roll20 is a place where we can get together and chat in real time, and draw things on an editable map overlay. It can be better for spitballing ideas than forum posting. I'll try to hang out there most of the time, but if I don't respond immediately to questions ask anyway, and I'll get back either on roll20 or via forum post. You'll need to sign up for an account on the site, and then you can join our game. Please do so when you get a spare moment, and then bookmark a link to the game. It would be really nice if someone had time to make sprites for each of our units and import them into the roll20. We've used icons from advance wars before but NATO symbols or something else are acceptable as well. I still want most of our tactical discussion to happen in this thread, for the benefit of those who can't always check roll20, to make the game more entertaining for the neutral observers. Edit: Sorry, didn't set the spreadsheet to shared. Fixed now. abelian fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 18:19
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Ok, about a third of us have already signed up for the roll20, that's great. I've created a spreadsheet with the ORBAT and some useful links. Please bookmark this and the thread!. I put Klaus, Ninja, and Frozen in charge of the vehicle attachments. If you want to change this, let me know and I'll see what I can do. So my direct subordinate commanders are professor_curly, Klaus88, INinja132 and FrozenLiquidity. I've done some initial tactical assessment, but I'll have to do a full introduction and writeup after work. For now, here is some key terrain that I've identified:  These all have a good view of the central objective area, and could make anyone trying to approach it have a bad day.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:24
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INinja132 posted:On the Orbat I'm listed as the Wirbelwind and Xenolalia as the Wespe but I believe that's the wrong way round. Woops sorry, I probably wrote it backwards then copy+pasted. Go ahead and swap it back. You can fight amongst yourselves as to who's in charge, but with only two of you guys and with somewhat different roles, it will probably be pretty informal.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:52
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Keep in mind that panthers are not invincible. Sherman 76s can knock out a panther from the front at these ranges. I've killed panthers at close range with 37mm greyhounds in this game. The side of those turrets is very vulnerable.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:14
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I'm really happy with all the good discussion going on here and in the roll20 chat. It's hard for me to take part in the discussion much during the working day, but I'll be able to read through it after work. I'll try to post a bit about my expectations and how we can come up with a plan, but I won't get much of a chance until this evening (I'm on west coast North American time, GMT-7:00 for reference). My plan is to try to synthesize the various ideas going around into a few specific alternatives, in order to focus the discussion. Until then, some points to keep in mind while everyone is discussing options:
If you're new to combat mission or not very experienced with modern small unit combined arms tactics, I highly recommend doing the following 1. Download the demo(s) and play them. 2. Watch the first six videos of this playlist. They are worth every minute, even if the guy has a monotonous voice. 3. Read the game engine manual and the Final Blitzkrieg manual. If you do nothing else, watch the videos. abelian fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 00:56
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Unfortunately, tank riding is not enabled in this game (only in Red Thunder, I believe). The infantry will have to hoof it.
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Jun 16, 2016 06:24
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FrozenLiquidity posted:Unless I'm missing something, doesn't the Wespe fit the bill here too? I haven't fired up to make sure, but I would guess that the Wespe can only be employed in the direct fire role when on map.
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Jun 16, 2016 06:41
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There is a very fine line when seizing an objective like this. If there were good solid cover in Obj. 2, then I would not hesitate risking rushing a sizable infantry force forward to seize it. If the objective were a village with some solid walls and buildings, we could get in there and be a massive pain in the rear end to anyone trying to get us out. See the first goon vs goon CMRT game for an example of this. But, I have to agree here that there just isn't enough cover in this map. If the infantry don't get mowed down approaching the central ridge, they will be exposed *from all sides* when they get there. FrozenLiquidity posted:I would expect an enemy team to set up in or just North of Obj. 3 in the buildings. These may not offer good visibility to Obj. 2 unless there are upper floors they can get to, as Obj. 2 is raised slightly from that position. In the event it does become an issue to taking Obj. 2, the elimination of other Allied valuable assets should give us enough of an advantage in the field to task an armored resource to deal with it, so I don't see it being an issue unless the rest of the plan goes to poo poo. The buildings are mostly barns, and all seem to be mostly useless in terms of visibility. I'll double check when do a flythrough in game next, but my guess right now is that those buildings will only be useful for defending against a direct assault of the secondary objectives.
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Jun 16, 2016 07:18
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Xenolalia posted:Also are you sure it isn't just available for certain tanks? I saw troops on Panthers in the demo videos they showed for FB. No, I'm not sure! I'm busy working on an  post right now, but we definitely need to look into this. If nobody beats me to it, I'll fire up the game and try.
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Jun 16, 2016 07:35
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If it weren't fiddly, it wouldn't be battlefront... You don't think we could use it to help get scouts forward if they could fit on the Luchs?
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Jun 16, 2016 07:41
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Deutsche Soldaten, Despite what the newsreels say, and as you are no doubt aware, the war is not going well. Nevertheless, we have amassed a potent force to strike the Americans. Just as we did in those glorious days in the Spring of 1940, we'll strike through the Ardennes and hit our enemy where and when they least expect it. While your loyalty and devotion to the fatherland is unquestioned, for many of you this will be your baptism of fire. While we haven't had time to give you the proper instruction and training that you fine gentlemen deserve, it's crucial that we spend all your spare time brushing up on the tactical concepts that will see you and your kamarden through the war. For many of you, this will be but a reminder, but the more familiar you are with these concepts, the better. The most important tactical concept for us will be fire superiority. Fire superiority means that your volume of fire is so great that the enemy keeps their heads down and cowers, rather than returning fire. Without fire superiority, you will quickly get pinned down as the enemy gains it in turn. When in contact with the enemy, you cannot maneuver without first achieving fire superiority. Attacking an enemy in good cover will require more firepower to achieve fire superiority than attacking the same enemy in the open. A corollary of this is that no movement near enemy positions can be undertaken without a fire plan. All assaults require a base of fire. For a weak enemy position, you can split up your squad into a fire element and a maneuver element. Once the fire element gains fire superiority, the maneuver element closes the gap, and kills or captures the enemy with grenades and assault weapons at close range. For a stronger enemy position, you do the same except with an entire platoon or company. Another important tactical concept, especially for the vehicles, is to spot the enemy before they spot you. Even with our superior German arms and armor, it's better to let the Americans walk into your guns. The best case is to lay ambush in keyhole positions where you can hit the enemy as they cross in front of you:  Now the terrain and frontage that we have will make it difficult to achieve anything like what's show above, but we should strive to apply the concept whenever we can. A third important tactical concept is that you should always reconnoiter the enemy. Do not send the bulk of your force forward until you've identified the enemy positions and kill zones. Always attempt to make contact with as small a force as possible. I cannot stress this enough. It may seem strange ("wouldn't I want to lead with a powerful force to hit back at whatever I come across?") But a small recon team is harder to hit, will take less casualties, and will be easier to extract from a killzone. Once you're out of the killzone, you can figure out how to deal with the newly revealed ambushers. But there's no point if your entire platoon is routed. Don't be like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Cf80hd55w And definitely don't let this happen to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lTVpGMfEwY We've had a lot of good discussion over the last day. We have a great group. I'm looking forward to seeing this through with you. If we are careful, smart, and have the least bit of luck, we'll seize our objective and make the Americans regret ever threatening the Fatherland. abelian fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 08:10
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Just a quick warning to folks: lines in the roll20 map are getting out of hand, so we may do a bit of garbage collection. If you want the map drawings to stick around, you'll need to take a screenshot before you leave roll20, because folks might erase them later on.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:58
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Ok, meant to post more last night, but my Internet died. There are a lot of very specific ideas floating around, which we will need. But before we can decide on the specifics I think we need to first figure out our strategy in a board sense. Here is some more analysis of the terrain. Avenues of approach Here's a few possible approaches:  Fields of fire LOS is intermittently broken through most of the map. The trees are not thick enough to offer complete concealment. Despite how it looks in game, the hill in the NW offers very good LOS, especially for vehicles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Frj9vvoLAk The north and south hamlets have almost no useful LOS. Key terrain Gone over this before, but now I would add the NW, SW and SE corner hills to that list. Observation and concealment Don't expect the treelines to completely obscure your movement. You can definitely be seen through them, at least in quite a few different pockets. Obstacles Glynn and professor_curly have pointed out that there is a hedgerow along Route Dora/Ida (right above the "Ida" text). That will make getting through that open patch even more difficult. There are trees everywhere, but are not thick enough to obstruct vehicle movement except at the corner hills. Anyone else have observations about the terrain to add? Once we have the terrain nailed down, I want to decide in very broad strokes what our plan will be. I see three basic alternatives: 1. Assault the middle along Berta/Caesar 2. Rush the flanks (Anton/Dora) 3. Get into defensive positions in the north, then counterattack once we've dealt with their initial push I'd like to decide on which strategy we adopt before making a specific plan.  QUESTIONS FOR dtkozl you may have already answered these, so sorry if I missed them.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:52
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Yes, that's a definite possibility. The arrows are to show the rough outline of where we can funnel our forces through, not exact paths. The Berta arrow is covering up a line of trees extending all the way into the objective, which is why I put it there, but it totally covered by the arrow. Sorry about that.
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Jun 16, 2016 19:07
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dtkozl posted:If you are talking about the map corners tanks can't get into those. Only impassible parts of the map for track/wheel. Yes, but not all of it, though. They can hang out in the areas that aren't dark woods on the contour map.
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Jun 16, 2016 22:55
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Gewehr 43 posted:... pictures ... Thanks for taking initiative and posting these; it really helps. Just one thing, if you could add [timg][/timg] tags around your pictures instead of the default [img] it will make it much easier to scroll through the thread. dtkozl posted:How long did grey usually give for orders? You guys think you can nail something out by Sunday? To that end, let me try to focus the discussion a bit. There seem to be a couple points that are more agreed upon than not
professor_curly posted:A plan... Looking good. Still pretty detailed, but you're thinking through a lot of contingencies. I'll have more feedback later on.
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Jun 17, 2016 00:53
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Reposting from before, dtkozl can we please get answers to the following questions abelian posted:
And also adding, what are the exact ground conditions? Snow, or deep snow?
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Jun 17, 2016 08:56
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dtkozl posted:
I wasn't planning on it, but I do need to know if they are able to do it to us! Thanks for the answers, that helps make sure we're on the right track.
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Jun 17, 2016 17:52
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glynnenstein posted:But a problem we have is that we aren't looking at our enemy's perspective enough, IMO. What would you do if you were on the American side? We should draw up at least a couple draft plans assuming we are in their position. Basic, broad strokes stuff so we can anticipate better and make sense of contacts we spot early. This is SUPER important because with the first turn being 3 minutes their is a certain commitment to avenues of approach. Very good points. Battalion orders will always mention "enemy's most likely course of action" and "enemy's most dangerous course of action". I suggest the same for subordinate orders as well. This helps make sure that you're considering what the enemy might do. As to your specific concern about the Eastern flank, that's close to our deployment area. We can get infantry and armor over there quickly to screen against such a move.
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Jun 17, 2016 18:06
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Saros posted:Okay so i'm still inclined to take the Hetzer over towards wounded knee and camp there, it's about the only firing position I can reach before the allies can have units in position and I really need to be stationary and holed up in cover to have any chance of taking out any tanks. It's too thin skinned and inflexible due to lack of turret to be used to support an offensive push in the west. I think the Wespe needs to stay in reserve until we know what we're dealing with as well.
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Jun 17, 2016 18:08
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Ok, we've had a lot of excellent discussion, and I think the plan is starting to crystallize. Here's a draft of Battalion orders: The infantry company will hastily deploy in the tree line north of the objective, and in particular occupying key terrain to the east and western flanks. Infantry may probe forward past this line cautiously (if not in heavy initial contact). Armor will be placed on both flanks. Possible fighting positions marked in blue. Armor on the eastern flank needs an infantry team for protection. Heavy fire support vehicles will remain in reserve behind hard cover until an opportunity to employ them is presented. The enemy's most likely course of action will be to set up bases of fire in the southern wood lines and assault the objective from the semi-covered approaches in the middle. The enemy's most dangerous course of action will be to cross Death Road 1944 West before our infantry is deployed, and/or rapidly bring up heavy weapons to suppress our infantry's initial advance. The enemy will be closer to that area than us, and does not need to climb a hill to get there, so seizing this territory quickly will be paramount. At least one recon vehicle needs to move to the left flank as quickly as possible to deter any early enemy push up the western flank. One or two squads of infantry should ride with the armor that is headed west, in order to establish an initial foothold in the key terrain before the rest of its unit arrives. The intent is to occupy the key terrain and repel any enemy assault on the central objective, suppress the enemy bases of fire, and counterattack down one or both flanks once fire superiority is achieved. Let's discuss any issues with this plan, and we'll try to finalize the Battalion orders as soon as possible. Edit: I left out a fire plan for the battalion mortars. Maybe smoke to help conceal the initial movement in the west? abelian fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 19:09
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Popete posted:Whats the best position in Baumy Lane for the Panther, from the pictures it's pretty deep so I'm not sure where I could setup that I have good field of view over the east/west. Seems I could move almost all the way up to the edge of the trees. If you have a screen grab that would be great too. I can help with this later on as well. You'll have to be careful down there though, as enemy infantry has a concealed and covered (from you) approach to you, since you're using the reverse slope of the central ridge as your cover. You'll need friendly units covering those approaches and keeping the bazookas away. Which our plan accounts for. Just stay frosty and if for some reason things go to poo poo, you should be prepared to back away. Sunken route 18 gives you a nice escape route, so I'm ok with aggressive positioning there.
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Jun 18, 2016 00:12
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I can check tonight when I get home from work. I'll try to post videos if I have time.
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Jun 18, 2016 00:34
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Abongination posted:Im a bit worried about the tank riders, if we can start the game with a squad mounted its less of an issue but considering how important it is for us to rush our armor into position we dont want anything slowing it down. If we can't deploy on the tanks, then we'll have to rethink the tank riders. But I'm pretty sure we can. We'll have to ask dtkozl. But the capability gives us a lot of tactical flexibility. It would even help a lot if the tanks could merely get the infantry closer, without going out of their way. It will definitely delay things for the armor due to how fiddly things are with vehicle dismounting, but I think we can find a reasonable compromise where the risk balances out the reward. Make sure to coordinate with the armor for the tank ride.
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Jun 18, 2016 04:26
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Ok, final orders will be due somewhere between 24 and 48 hours from now dtkozl please give us a warning 24 or 36 hours before orders are due I will put the finishing touches on Battalion orders and post an updated version shortly. For many of you, this will be your first time posting orders. Now is the time to ask questions if you're unclear of how things work, either in the thread here or roll20. Once you've posted your orders, please copy+paste a link in the turn 1 column next to your name in the spreadsheet. abelian fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 07:34
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cock hero flux posted:ORDERS Ok, good job posting orders so quickly. But a couple more points if I may:
Edit to add: also please make sure to link to your orders post in the spreadsheet. abelian fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 08:41
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 BATTALION  Our infantry company will hastily deploy in the tree line north of the objective, and in particular occupying key terrain to the east and western flanks. Infantry may probe forward past this line cautiously (if not in heavy initial contact). Klaus88 armor will be placed to guard both flanks. Possible fighting positions marked in blue. Armor on the eastern flank needs an infantry screen for protection. Note that the NW hill offers commanding views, but is also exposed to many different areas. INinja132: Heavy fire support vehicles will remain in reserve behind hard cover in Waffen Haus until an opportunity to employ them is presented. The enemy's most likely course of action will be to set up bases of fire in the southern wood lines and assault the objective from the semi-covered approaches in the middle. The enemy's most dangerous course of action will be to cross Death Road 1944 West before our infantry is deployed, and/or rapidly bring up heavy weapons to suppress our infantry's initial advance. The enemy will be closer to that area than us, and does not need to climb a hill to get there, so seizing this territory quickly will be paramount. FrozenLiquidity: At least one recon vehicle needs to move to the left flank as quickly as possible to deter any early enemy push up the western flank. One or two squads of infantry should ride with the armor that is headed west, in order to establish an initial foothold in the key terrain before the rest of its unit arrives. Coordination here will be tricky and essential. Klaus and Abong, I will to my best to help figure out the best way to accomplish this without delaying the armored advance Commander's intent: to occupy the key terrain and repel any enemy assault on the central objective, suppress the enemy bases of fire, and counterattack down one or both flanks once fire superiority is achieved. Intent for battalion fire plan will be a 10 minute delay linear fire mission on "the D woods". Battalion HMG will deploy on "base of fire hill". Detailed orders to dtkozl for battalion organic units will follow.  Now, Roll call!!! It's been quite a few days since this started. We need to know if you're still around. Please mark an "X" in the roll call column of the orders spreadsheet once you've read this. Platoon commanders: be prepared to give contingency orders for your subordinates in case we suffer some attrition. quote:Kamaraden, abelian fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 09:58
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dtkozl posted:Edit where is that excel sheet? HERE dtkozl posted:Allies needed a bit more time so official end of orders will be 8am Tuesday EST. Consider yourself served! Ok, we'll be ready. That's Tuesday at 1200 GMT, or in about 64 hours if I count correctly. abelian fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 20:40
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Abongination posted:Abe is uploading some LoS video's that will provide all my squad commanders with good intel for picking the ground you'll be holding in the forest, I'm giving everyone free reign as to their pathing and final positions. I will however strongly suggest that all squads SPLIT as soon as they are able, 1/2 will need to wait till they dismount. Also try to keep your elements from bunching up and be aware of eachothers orders and movements. Here are the videos, finally. LOS from likely American positions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UejNCqPHcao LOS from some German positions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bh3v6tTu_4
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Jun 18, 2016 21:07
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Gewehr 43 posted:Very good. dtkozl will need some info on where you want your fire arcs pointing. See this thread's OP for what a cover arc looks like. I'd recommend them south/southeast to cover the buildings and the main NW/SE treeline that's directly opposite your position. Hope I'm not micromanaging here, but are you sure you want an actual cover arc? It's likely to do more harm than good, preventing them from engaging an enemy when a FACE command would work just fine.
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Jun 18, 2016 21:25
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jon joe posted:I'm confused, how is what you said different from the FACE commands I submitted? Or should I FACE towards a particular square? There are several different commands that can set targeting.
Edit to quote the OP (emphasis added) dtkozl posted:Arcs should be avoided by infantry, except to ensure that specialty units (e.g. an HQ) doesn't get into combat, or that a abelian fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 21:33
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Ok, right now it looks like we have two vehicles headed to very similar spots: That bunches up two pieces of armor next to each other. I don't think this is a good use of our resources, and it leaves the panther dangerously exposed from the south. Here's the LOS from the Hetzer's position: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvuJbuRMJaE But, consider this alternative position. It's perfect for a Hetzer or antitank gun:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpBoorrwpJ4
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Jun 18, 2016 23:43
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In case you needed more reason to avoid using cover arcs, Professor Curly found a very nice illustration of what happens when you don't get them exactly right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI4MNt-BtBM&t=921s
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Jun 18, 2016 23:51
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It looks like everything is pretty well covered in snow. To be honest I would need to look it up in the manual to know for sure.
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Jun 19, 2016 02:05
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Also vehicles, you can deploy unbuttoned.
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Jun 19, 2016 02:52
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Explosive Tampons posted:I like a quick jog in the morning. Through the snow and uphill both ways!
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Jun 19, 2016 05:23
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| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 15:14 |
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Abong had requested this a couple days ago. It will take about three minutes to arrive at the Panther camp hill given Klaus' current orders, and another couple minutes for the infantry to make it to the tree line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zs7XSPfYTI
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Jun 20, 2016 04:00
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