UKMT August 2016: The Month of the Dull Knives

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT August 2016: The Month of the Dull Knives

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

When you get to the point at which you need either a carrot or a stick to get people voting it might be time to start considering that something in that system is basically broken and needs fixing.
But forcing or bribing people to engage isn't a fix, and won't produce a satisfactory outcome.

Figure out why people don't care or bother voting (hint: it's not simple laziness at root) and start there.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2016 09:05

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 08:35

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

TomViolence posted:

The efforts of socialists, anarchists and communists who participated in the civil rights movement, the campaign for women's suffrage, the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, decolonization and the gay rights movement have been largely written out of popular history and it's kind of hilarious how liberals have colonised and appropriated these struggles and their narratives to their own propagandistic ends.

Ding ding.
Most socially liberal concessions won from classically liberal stares are extorted at knifepoint by mass agitation. Bourgeois society only extended the franchise, outlawed slavery, repealed restrictions on ethnic, sexual, or religious minorities as concessions to popular agitation - often after decades (or more) of pressure.

Don't give the state the credit for victories won from it through popular struggle you fuckerrrzz

# ¿ Aug 1, 2016 20:18

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

If you want to get a feel for what a stupid, lying bag of poo poo Stalin was just go read some of his writings (actually don't it's all trash). There's a bit in Anarchism or Socialism where he's like "The anarchists say that the dictatorship of the proletariat will be a police state full of spies and gendarmes! We utterly repudiate this slander!!"

loving Stalin of all people.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2016 22:46

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

HorseLord posted:

Well my first bit of critical thinking is: How come everyone who makes the mass murderer claims uses a different death toll? It's always a big multi millions number, but it's never the same one. I've heard everything from 20, to 50, to 100 Million dead. The second bit of critical thinking is how would any of those figures fit within known Soviet demographics, what would the birth rate even have to be?

My third bit of critical thinking is, why do you think proper practice in a debate is to go "uh well I don't actually know anything about the subject, BUTANYWAYHERE'SANOTHERTHING bet you can't handle that, huh"?

Assuming we're talking about the Holodomor. Death tolls from famines are notoriously difficult to estimate. One fairly usual methodology is to extrapolate a "target" population from averaging our pre-famine population growth rates, and then assuming that anybody "missing" from the target number after the famine had died of starvation (as opposed to emigrated, or looking at a lowered birth rate owing to malnutrition). This methodology may produce inconsistent or impossible numbers when compared against other objective data, and probably overestimates death tolls - but that doesn't function as evidence that a famine never occurred.

If your argument that varying and inconsistent death tolls is evidence that the Holodmor never occurred you're going to have to throw a lot of (dead) babies out with the bathwater, including (but not limited to) the Irish Famines.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2016 23:30

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

HorseLord posted:

My fourth bit is wondering why you think I'd even care that people went to gulags.

Yeah man! gently caress the Old Bolsheviks - what did they ever do for the revol- oh wait no, poo poo.....

# ¿ Aug 1, 2016 23:33

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

The peasants can't meet their harvest quotas? Confiscating all of their food so they starve to death should encourage them! :ussr:

# ¿ Aug 2, 2016 00:09

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

HorseLord posted:

Me: it's bad to be anticommunist. People who want to destroy socialism and restore the old order should go to hell

Owlfancier: How dare you say people who have differing ideas about how to implement socialist policy should go to hell

Lots of the people stalin had killed were longstanding party members you shitlord.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2016 00:42

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

goddamnedtwisto posted:

And now we all see why this thread deserves - no, needs - Pissflaps. Look what the vacuum of his absence has sucked in.

It's still better than anything pissflaps posts.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2016 00:49

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

HorseLord posted:

Yezhov sucks and should have been executed earlier.

So was Yeltsin.

So your plan is just to run around in circles, progressively denying that stalin killed masses of people, proclaiming that they probably deserved it anyway, and then laying the blame at the feet of anybody except uncle joe.

poo poo, dude. I guess at some point we'll all get bored of chasing you and your goalposts around and you can bask in the warm glow of victory.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2016 00:53

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Baron Corbyn posted:

Steven Woolfe has been excluded from the UKIP leadership battle for submitting a late application.

Here's a piece about the new favourite to get the job, Lisa Duffy.

She sounds like a fuckin charmer.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2016 09:08

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

I want a knighthood.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2016 17:49

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Cheesy chips with burger sauce plrase

# ¿ Aug 7, 2016 04:35

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Hoops posted:

If you take your �25 back and still vote you're unprincipled, selfish, and shallow.

Oh so you agreed with the �25 poll tax on party democracy to begin with, then?

# ¿ Aug 8, 2016 14:22

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Zephro posted:

brumming the wigmodge on the seventh day of Michaelmas or whatever

we brum the wigmodge on Lady Day you loving pleb

# ¿ Aug 8, 2016 15:46

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

OwlFancier posted:

Holy poo poo it's even better than I remember it, The Computer is like the loving politburo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGS_N66u_48

We seem to have a really interesting tradition of incredibly sinister and oppressive advertising in this country. That vid, the BBC detector vans, CCTV posters in London. Every other announcement on the railways network lately is a variation on "CCTV is in operation at this station and will be used to prosecute anybody guilty of antisocial behaviour". Just this constant reminder that we're all being observed constantly by unsleeping and ever vigilant machines with the threatening overtone of inevitable, inescapable punishment for noncompliance.

I wonder if other countries are as blatantly orwellian in this respect?

# ¿ Aug 8, 2016 23:11

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Ewan posted:

I've looked back through the last 6-7 pages or so, and not seen any discussion on the Southern Trains strikes. Just wondering what people's views are here?

Personally, I think it's a farce and an element of blame lies with all sides. But, I have to say, it is with the Union that my sympathy is lacking the most. It is their job to defend the job security of their members, sure. But, they need to be open and honest and say that is what they are doing (in this case based on slippery-slope argument that in the long-run this will lead to job losses). Instead, they are insulting the intelligence of the public by claiming that this is a 'safety issue'. And, for no apparent reason, have rejected a deal that guarantees no job losses and secures an above-inflation pay rise. It is hugely frustrating when the transport unions hold the public to ransom to hold back modernisation, and extort better working conditions. This is the longest train strike in 50 years.

Unions play an important part in securing worker's rights, but this is yet another example of where they have stepped too far and should be ashamed of themselves. They are only harming themselves in the long run by reducing public sympathy, which in the future will enable Governments to push through further anti-strike/union legislation.

For those that haven't read into this - this specific strike lies over whether responsibility for closing train doors remains with the guards or transfers to drivers (who have CCTV enabling them to see all doors). Even if they do this, they have say that (for now at least) they will keep on-board guards and that there will be no job losses.

http://newsthump.com/2016/08/08/fcking-train-doors-spits-every-southern-rail-commuter/

I spend half my worthless life on Southern trains and, frustrating as it is (there's no service at all for half my journey right now, so i'm cycling 10 miles to the nearest station to catch a train to work, same going home) i support the unions to the hilt.

Southern are a worthless loving franchise and I hope the RMT break them. Sadly that's not looking awfully pikely because of Govia's special deal with the state.

I just wish the uions were this combative and stubborn on pushing wider class interests instead of just their members' financial interests. We need some loving anarcho-syndicalists in the unions.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 17:13

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Guavanaut posted:

I enjoyed this Freudian slip.

I fully expect to see this next time Southern have a "meet the managers" event at London Victoria.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 17:23

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Also Trotsky was partially right, but Trots are loving insufferable.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 18:28

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

OwlFancier posted:

Huh I guess I might actually be a trot, drat.

He was also responsible for a lot of vicious slaughter of left wing dissidents in the early years, so, y'know.....

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 18:41

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Renaissance Robot posted:

That is what I was thinking of, yeah.

Also his position on unions:

Look at this poo poo. Just look at it.

What about?

Opposition to Socialism in One Country

e: he was right to oppose it, but so loving wrong on so much other poo poo - for clarity.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 19:57

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

forkboy84 posted:

Yeah. Opposing socialism in one country was good, but for a party that was meant to benefit the proletariat the Bolsheviks had a pretty lovely attitude towards them. Maybe it's just the benefit of hindsight, but creating a whole bureaucracy to run industry instead of just...y'know, giving control over to the workers was remarkably lovely. Which is why, of all of them, I feel the most direct sympathy with the Workers' Opposition group around Shliapnikov & Kollontai.

There's an old book on the topic of left wing opposition to the Bolshevik's & their democratic centralism that I really want to find, from the '60s, called The Consceience of the Revolution.

I've been noticing the theme in a lot of the stuff I've been reading lately. Grass-roots attempts to institute workers' self management/libertarian communism being stitched up by trades unions and Socialists (Spain), the Socialist state (Bolsheviks liquidating the Free Territory), the Unions and the Socialists (France 68). I seem to remember the unions and socialists being quite collaborationist in Uruguay too. The same basic theme recurs again and again - the workers try to manage things themselves, and their supposed representatives poo poo the bed because it isn't happening how or when they planned, and they're not in control.

e: the comparisons to the Labour Party right now pretty much write themselves.

I'm turning into a loving anarchist. :negative:

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 20:29

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

forkboy84 posted:

Because Ewan's support for workers goes as exactly as far as "so long as they don't inconvenience me", which is the least "support" possible to give. If a strike caused no disruption then quite patently the strikers would have no bargaining power at all. The power in a strike is entirely in going "treat us reasonably or we will cause a lot of trouble for you".

Christ, whining about the inconvenience of strikes is the least comradely & most liberal view to take on strikes possible. It's also the sort of attitude that leads to the slow but inevitable striking back of workers protections won over the course of the 20th century. Things like the banning of sympathy strikes directly erodes the ability for the working class to show direct solidarity with striking comrades in another industry. The first time a Tory government banned sympathy strikes the law was overturned by a later Labour government. But we had from 1997 until 2010 for Labour to revoke the 1980 ban & they did nothing. Another lovely Blair policy.

Not emptyquoting

# ¿ Aug 10, 2016 11:50

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Yorkshire Tea posted:

The RMT hosed all of Southern rail off the back of 300 votes to strike.

And?

Just wait until it's DOO and they'll be able to gently caress the entire network on 150 votes :haw:

# ¿ Aug 10, 2016 17:14

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

OwlFancier posted:

Where did I put my tiny violin to play for the poor small business owners.

You just reminded me of something i read at work a few days ago:

Robert Wilkie, 11th Nov. 1896 posted:

Whilst wishing success for all movements which have for their aim the betterment of the condition of the Industrial Classes I beg respectfully to express the hope that in regard to the proposed deputation to wait upon your Lordship on Wednesday next and in the interests of the heavily handicapped small shopkeepers ... that our customary rights and privileges may be safeguarded.

Our rights and privileges are presently crippled through the growing tendencies of certain sections of the Working Classes to overorganise in the name of cooperation and co-partnership of labour. There appears to be necessity moreover for effect to be given to the Corresponding Acts of Geo. III and this necessity seems to have arisen through the overorganised condition of certain Associations who are not duly constituted Religious Bodies but who make use of Trade Union members for picketing, for subversive Vigilance, and other unnecessary and damaging purposes.

I refer particularly to what may be referred to as the "Exeter Hall Group" namely:

The Young Mens' Christian Association

The Young Womens' Christian Association

The Polytechnic Institutions

The National Vigilance Association

The NSPCC

The League of Pity

The Assoc. Societies for the Protection of Women &Children

There is practically nothing to prevent any person from being singled out by any of the above closely federated undertakings under any pretext and as their meetings are to a degree private and even secret their members are shielded whilst the person singled out has often been ruined to serve the interests of these groups.

Trusting that your Lordship will condescend to take notice of these grievances and that the existence of such dangerous combinations and confederacy may be deemed illegal.

Imagine what awful ahit you'd have to be up to to piss off the noted subversives of the NSPCC and the Nat Vigilance Association - who were instrumental in uncovering and shutting down Victorian child brothels.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2016 19:47

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

OwlFancier posted:

What exactly is "subversive Vigilance"?

Unless it means "holding a vigil" as in a polite form of picketing, I'm not sure how you can... notice things subversively.

I'm pretty sure it just means watching and being aware of the shady poo poo that the Captains of Industry are doing in the workplace, and trying to stop it.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2016 20:03

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

LeoMarr posted:

I think Labor posters should go back to the commune.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12026614/Labour-MPs-are-trapped-between-Jeremy-Corbyns-wrath-and-the-voters.html

still holds true

Shut up dipshit

# ¿ Aug 11, 2016 17:26

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

XMNN posted:

llol apparrently the new scrounging bastard lord of westminister wont be paying any inheritance tax on his £9bn

im 100% unironically in favour of shooting literally every single member of the aristocracy

well thats not entirely true its more like 90% because theres still a part of me that says "guillotine"

Why bother with the bourgeois excess of a guillotine when the Mall is lined with perfectly good lampposts?

# ¿ Aug 11, 2016 18:33

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Alchenar posted:

Even if you can spin the Council election results as 'not bad' (and I really doubt you can

Can somebody explain to this loving gringo the historical context of the last council elections - with particular reference to the historic high achieved last go round. Id do it but 1) im phone posting and linking sources is a pain, and 2) cannot be hosed with morons like this at 8am.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 08:17

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Astroclassicist posted:

Faragestache

https://twitter.com/MrMichaelSpicer/status/764102079325544449

Ah jaysus

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 15:22

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Guavanaut posted:

Could this be good for Jeremy Corbyn in future now that it's set a precedent and the NEC is stuffed with supporters?

antryism

It'll be good for his opponents, who will accuse him of presiding over a stalinist totalitarian junta if he ever does it.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 18:09

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Avocado doesn't taste like anything. It's poo poo.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 18:49

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Alchenar posted:

Well the NEC isn't actually stuffed with his supporters, there's just a nominal majority (that might not vote as a block consistently).

The real issue is the underlying one with this move - the centre-left declared that it isn't interested in being in the same party as the hard-left. Once they've decided that (and that goes a bit further than just being a bit grumpy or even disloyal while not being in charge) then the party has split - it's just a matter of someone formally acknowledging that happens. And despite the cheers of some people in this thread at that prospect, a split would be disastrous for Labour and the left. You might not want them in charge of Labour, but there's enough of them and the voters they represent that there's no path to power that doesn't involve including them.

There is no "hard left" in the labour party for fucks sake

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 18:56

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Lt. Danger posted:

Uhhh this thread perhaps??!

My browsing history disqualifies me from ever holding political office.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2016 10:13

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

ThomasPaine posted:

What the gently caress, where

He used to contribute to the wiki that was set up to stalk and torment ChrisChan.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2016 10:31

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

quote:

The problem for Watson is that his faction of the Labour Party has been engaging in behavior that would make even the most sectarian Trotskyist blush.

If you want conspiracies, you�d struggle to find a more obvious one than the recent party coup, which was not only planned weeks beforehand but coordinated so resignations occurred on-the-hour, every hour in the national press. It also hinged on a vote of no confidence in Corbyn as leader, for which there is no basis in the party�s own rules.

It would be hard to imagine more a more anti-democratic maneuvers than banning local party meetings for months on the basis of unverifiable claims of harassment. Except maybe the summary suspension of entire constituency branches for being too supportive of Corbyn.

And what about purges? Has any Trotskyist organization ever illegally removed 130,000 members from its voting rolls? Or increased the fee to vote eightfold overnight to prevent people from participating?

It should be clear to any objective observer which wing of the party poses the greatest threat to Labour members.

Watson himself made no attempt to disguise his broader aims. In the same interview with the Guardian he made clear that he wanted to change the mechanism for electing the party leader to drastically reduce the input of the membership. What better way to legitimize this than to engage in a red scare?

This kind of McCarthyism is nothing new � it has a sordid history in the Labour Party. One prominent incident, in 1960, saw Hugh Gaitskell use his speech at party conference to brand opponents of nuclear weapons �fellow travellers� of the Soviet Union. In the decades that followed numerous MPs were subject to allegations, based on tip offs provided by Mi5, of spying for the USSR. One was even driven to suicide by the campaign. None of the allegations were true. This is what real political bullying looks like.

When Watson talks about being �reliably informed� about nefarious behavior, when he compiles dossiers, when his friends in party headquarters make clear they are trawling through members� social media accounts, it should provide a chilling reminder of those days.

It can now be said without any doubt that establishment figures in the party are gathering intelligence on their political enemies. It is far from clear how extensive this exercise is or how it can be held accountable.

As with all red scares, the real danger is not the socialist bogeymen. It is the climate of fear and suspicion that this process creates, one designed to make Labour members think again about expressing radical ideas or challenging the authority of party elites.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/08/watson-corbyn-red-scare-militant-trotskyists/

I'm just saying is all

communism bitch fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Aug 14, 2016

# ¿ Aug 14, 2016 11:20

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Grouchio posted:

So I've been compiling a photo album of contemporary British politicians (and French, American, etc) and I've stumbled upon the smug faces of Jeremy Hunt.

This Hunt fellow by the looks of things is a huge oval office, I take it?

Correctamundo.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2016 21:39

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

JeremoudCorbynejad posted:

Lol look at you saving quotes all the way from last year

This is almost as bad as when you posted a pre-prepared speech for the thread minutes after Corbyn won

haha i'd forgotten about that. Had his own little loving press release ready.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2016 22:39

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

StoneOfShame posted:

I hate If, I cant stand any of Kipling's poetry. Top poets are of course Yeats, Heaney and Larkin.

Yevgeny Yevtushenko

# ¿ Aug 14, 2016 22:58

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

TomViolence posted:

Where's Ober? He can usually get Mr Rhodesia to gently caress off for awhile. Thread janitor, sweeping away the shite.

One day I won't be here to look after you all, and before that time I want you all to have learned how to run off the assort bigots, racists and class enemies that try to take root in this thread.

I believe each and every one of you has it within you to call kapparomeo a racist, imperialist oval office who should be driven into the sea.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2016 23:35

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 08:35

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Hoops posted:

Look at this sad clubhouse bullshit, isn't there exactly a rule against these kind of posts?

# ¿ Aug 14, 2016 23:58

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