DAPL: coward pipe defeats water protectors

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > DAPL: coward pipe defeats water protectors

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Justice Department statement:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/joint-statement-department-justice-department-army-and-department-interior-regarding-standing

quote:

Joint Statement from the Department of Justice, the Department of the Army and the Department of the Interior Regarding Standing Rock Sioux Tribe v. U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

The Department of Justice, the Department of the Army and the Department of the Interior issued the following statement regarding Standing Rock Sioux Tribe v. U.S. Army Corps of Engineers:

�We appreciate the District Court�s opinion on the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers� compliance with the National Historic Preservation Act. However, important issues raised by the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe and other tribal nations and their members regarding the Dakota Access pipeline specifically, and pipeline-related decision-making generally, remain. Therefore, the Department of the Army, the Department of Justice, and the Department of the Interior will take the following steps.

The Army will not authorize constructing the Dakota Access pipeline on Corps land bordering or under Lake Oahe until it can determine whether it will need to reconsider any of its previous decisions regarding the Lake Oahe site under the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) or other federal laws. Therefore, construction of the pipeline on Army Corps land bordering or under Lake Oahe will not go forward at this time. The Army will move expeditiously to make this determination, as everyone involved � including the pipeline company and its workers � deserves a clear and timely resolution. In the interim, we request that the pipeline company voluntarily pause all construction activity within 20 miles east or west of Lake Oahe.

�Furthermore, this case has highlighted the need for a serious discussion on whether there should be nationwide reform with respect to considering tribes� views on these types of infrastructure projects. Therefore, this fall, we will invite tribes to formal, government-to-government consultations on two questions: (1) within the existing statutory framework, what should the federal government do to better ensure meaningful tribal input into infrastructure-related reviews and decisions and the protection of tribal lands, resources, and treaty rights; and (2) should new legislation be proposed to Congress to alter that statutory framework and promote those goals.

�Finally, we fully support the rights of all Americans to assemble and speak freely. We urge everyone involved in protest or pipeline activities to adhere to the principles of nonviolence. Of course, anyone who commits violent or destructive acts may face criminal sanctions from federal, tribal, state, or local authorities. The Departments of Justice and the Interior will continue to deploy resources to North Dakota to help state, local, and tribal authorities, and the communities they serve, better communicate, defuse tensions, support peaceful protest, and maintain public safety.

�In recent days, we have seen thousands of demonstrators come together peacefully, with support from scores of sovereign tribal governments, to exercise their First Amendment rights and to voice heartfelt concerns about the environment and historic, sacred sites. It is now incumbent on all of us to develop a path forward that serves the broadest public interest.�

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/feds-block-construction-of-dakota-access-pipeline-despite-court-decision/article/2601433

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Sep 10, 2016

# ¿ Sep 10, 2016 01:19

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 22:42

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Liquid Communism posted:

Yep, this is common for these pipeline projects lately. Oil company bitches that trains to move oil costs too much, state hurries through a cursory environmental impact study then starts waving the eminent domain hammer at anyone in the way that won't sell because they want what they think will be huge tax revenues.

Or the wonderful meme going around: "12,000 temporary construction jobs!" :argh:

# ¿ Sep 10, 2016 01:28

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Fluffy Chainsaw posted:

You don't want to move oil by train, especially US shale oil - it's very rich in methane, which is highly combustible should there be an incident.

Lets be honest: it doesn't matter which method they use, they'll gently caress up. Over and over again.

Right now, the difference in methods is how quickly the company can make a profit.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2016 13:28

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Gobbeldygook posted:

Are you blind? I linked the picture right on this page.

It goes around their land. It's not their loving land.

You realize they are protesting mostly because of the river it crosses right? And because most of these companies have a lovely record when it comes to pipeline integrity, and that river is the reservations primary water source?

I'd be protesting too.

Even worse, looking at that map: Why is the pipeline crossing the river. Twice, when it looks like it could have easily been routed around those cities to get to that exact location without crossing the river?

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 15:45

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

silence_kit posted:

The pipeline later on will cross the Mississippi river, upstream from St. Louis, Missouri. The city of St. Louis gets a lot of its drinking water from the river.

You're right, maybe this pipeline idea isn't as good as we're being told. Its not like we've had any explode in the past 3 months or so....

But, the point stands: Why shouldn't they protest? Its not like companies and the government don't have an established legacy of loving the Tribes even more than they gently caress everyday US citizens.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 15:57

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

silence_kit posted:

Aren't you the poster who whines about NIMBYs in the nuclear energy megathread?

Got it, an energy sector with a very excellent safety record is completely comparable to one that is notorious for loving everything up and then leaving the citizens to foot the bill. Are you serious?

Here, let me help you, this is a list of pipeline spills just this year alone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century#2016

quote:

On January 2, 3 people were injured, one seriously, one home destroyed, and 50 homes were damaged in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, when a leak gas from a gas main entered a home. Preliminary results indicate that a leak occurred at a weld seam on the gas main. Later, later, Oklahoma regulators filed a complaint over the failure with Oklahoma Natural Gas. The complaint alleged the utility failed to properly inspect its system following eight previous leak failures in the neighborhood going back to 1983.[559][560]
On January 9, a 30-inch Atmos Energy gas transmission pipeline exploded and burned in Robertson County, Texas. 4 families nearby were evacuated.[561]
On January 11, butane leaking from a pipeline storage facility, in Conway, Kansas, forced a closure of a nearby highway for a time.[562]
On February 14, a 6-inch crude oil pipeline broke near Rozet, Wyoming, spilling about 1,500 gallons of crude oil into a creek bed.[563]
On February 16, an explosion and fire occurred at a gas plant in Frio County, Texas. 2 employees at the plant were injured.[564]
On February 24, a 10-inch propane pipeline exploded and burned, near Sulphur, Louisiana. There were no injuries. About 208,000 gallons of propane were burned. The cause was from manufacturing defects.[565][566]
On March 11, about 30,000 gallons of gasoline spilled from a leaking plug on a pipeline, at a tank farm in Sioux City, Iowa.[567]
On March 22, about 4,000 gallons of gasoline spilled from a 6-inch petroleum products pipeline in Harwood, North Dakota.[568]
On April 2, the TransCanada Corporation Keystone Pipeline was observed by a local resident to be leaking, near Freeman, South Dakota. The cause was a crack in a girth weld, and amount of tar sands dilbit spill was about 16,800 gallons.[569][570]
On April 12, a pipeline at a gas plant in Woodsboro, Texas exploded, killing 2 men, and injured another worker.[571]
On April 17, a 10 petroleum products pipeline failed in Wabash County, Illinois, resulting in a sheen on the Wabash River. About 48,000 gallons of diesel fuel was spilled.[572]
On April 29, a 30-inch Texas Eastern/Spectra Energy pipeline exploded, injuring one man, destroying his home and damaging several others. The incident was reported at 8:17 a.m., near the intersection of Routes 819 and 22 in Salem Township, Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania. Later, Spectra Energy Corp. announced plans to dig up and assess 263 miles of that pipeline, from Pennsylvania to New Jersey. Corrosion had been detected at the failed seam 4 years before the rupture.[573][574][575]
On May 20, a Shell Oil Company pipeline leaked near Tracy, California, spilling about 21,000 gallons of crude oil.[576]
On June 23, a Crimson Pipeline crude oil line leaked in Ventura County, California. Initial reports said the spill size was from 25,200 gallons to 29,000 gallons, but, later reports estimate 45,000 gallons of crude were spilled.[577][578]
On July 6, a Plantation Pipeline line was noticed to be leaking in Goochland County, Virginia. The spill did not reach nearby waterways.[579]
On August 12, contractors were working on one of the main lines in Sunoco Pipeline LP's Nederland, Texas terminal when crude oil burst through a plug that was supposed to hold the oil back in the pipeline and ignited. The contractors were knocked off the platform to the ground, suffering injuries from the fall and severe burns. 7 contractors were injured.[580]
On September 4, a pipeline broke in Kern County, California, spilling reclaimed water & oil.[581]
On September 5, a pipeline in Bay Long, Louisiana was hit by dredging operations, resulting in a spill of about 5,300 gallons of crude oil into the water.[582]
On September 9, a Colonial Pipeline mainline leak was noticed by workers on another project, in Shelby County, Alabama. At least 252,000 gallons of gasoline leaked from line.[583][584]
On September 10, a Sunoco pipeline ruptured near Sweetwater, Texas. About 33,000 gallons of crude oil were spilled. The pipeline was just over a year old.[585]
On October 11, two Nicor Gas workers were injured, and two townhouse units destroyed in a massive fire and explosion, caused by a gas leak in Romeoville, Illinois.[586]
On October 17, an 8-inch ammonia pipeline started leaking, near Tekamah, Nebraska. A farmer living nearby went to find the source of the ammonia, and was killed by entering the vapor cloud. About 50 people were evacuated from their homes.[587]
On October 19, a contractor in Portland, Oregon hit a 1 inch gas pipeline during work. Within an hour, there were 2 explosions, injuring 8 people, destroying or damaging several buildings, and started a fire. Contractors claim a utility locate was done before work began.[588]
On October 21, an 8 inch Sunoco pipeline ruptured in Lycoming County, Pennsylvania, spilling about 55,000 gallons of gasoline into the Susquehanna River. The river was running high at the time.[589]
On October 24, a pipeline ruptured on the Seaway Pipeline, in Cushing, Oklahoma, spraying the area with crude oil.[590]
On October 31, a Colonial Pipeline mainline exploded and burned in Shelby County, Alabama, after accidentally being hit by a trackhoe. One worker died at the scene, and 5 others were hospitalized. The explosion occurred approximately several miles from the 09 September 2016 breach.

If Nuclear was spilling this often, I'd be calling them out too. But they are not. And you are making false comparisons.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 16:06

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

DeusExMachinima posted:

If nuclear was as common as coal, you'd be able to point to a larger list of failures and lay it out in an impressive looking post even though on the whole they're far safer. Freaking out over pipelines destroying the environment is the same as people blowing Three Mile Island out of proportion or condemning fracking when the alternative is burning more coal. There is no free lunch here, period. Until we find a renewable resource with a) the energy density of oil and that b) doesn't require a net negative investment of energy to extract, oil is here to stay. Hopefully technology evolves sufficiently before we run out of it. If you've got an alternative to it right now by all means step up and receive your Nobel prize.

In no way did I imply desposing of petroleum right now, but let's not pretend that the oil industry is innocent in these issues at large.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 17:17

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

DeusExMachinima posted:

I wasn't just addressing that, I was also telling you that the plural of anecdote is not data and that throwing up some cherry-picked examples of pipelines gone wrong doesn't usefully tell anyone whether they're more or less dangerous than alternatives or what percentage of pipelines fail catastrophically over their lifespan. In other words, exactly what anti-nuclear types do.

That'd be fine if they were not playing up moving to pipelines as a safety measure to supplant rail transport.

Which they are. And yet are not replacing rail transit for oil. Because the pipeline is just an excuse to dump product on the market faster, not enhance safety.

And no, its not quite the same as what anti-nuclear types do. Mostly because they either play up poor examples (Three Mile Island) or play up substandard and flawed cases (Fukushima and Chernobyl), comparing those cases to a oil pipe that is being pitched by companies that have a legacy of abject failure after abject failure that they are basically allowed to shrug off, its not the same at all.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 17:39

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

twodot posted:

Something like 97% of the pipeline is built on privately held land, it's not like the company just owns all of North Dakota and draw pipelines wherever they like.

That's not what I implied either.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 18:41

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Liquid Communism posted:

To give you a comparison, I paid 11.17 cents per kilowatt-hour on last month's bill in Iowa. MidAmerican, our provider, surprise, surprise is an IOU.

11 Cents/kwh in Atlanta.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2016 00:59

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

At the end of the day: If you feel the need to defend a multi-billion dollar industry with a notoriety for lax safety, lackluster maintenance, and extremely poor environmental record, against a bunch of people that have been basically abused left and right by both said company and the government, I think you need to step back and look at yourself long and hard.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2016 17:55

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

WTF is this. "Facts aren't really important here, maaan, because everyone knows the petroleum industry are some bad dudes."

Prove me wrong then. Show me why they should have no say in a gigantic gently caress off pipe of oil crossing their only water source, and demonstrate that these companies do not have a legacy of being utter fuckups and scumbags to people in general.

Here, let me help you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYusNNldesc

# ¿ Nov 3, 2016 18:36

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Goodpancakes posted:

Sioux county, the reservation, is the sixth poorest county in the nation. Having done work there its a bombed out poo poo hole.

Now think long and hard as to why that is and get back to me.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2016 18:43

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

DeusExMachinima posted:

Come up with some solid percentages on how often pipelines fail already. What level of failures do we see and what level would be acceptable to you?

Pipelines spill less often, but spill more in quantity, and are less easily detected. Trains spill more often, but in lower quantities and are more easily detected.

Ironically, tanker trucks apparently suck.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2016 19:45

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

DeusExMachinima posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying you'd prefer trains as the best solution to transporting oil?

If I have to deal with spills, I'd rather have less total spilled than overall less spills with more total spilled.

But that's just me, I'm not a multi-billion dollar company out to protect their own interests. And that assumes as well that they stop using rail overall when they switch to pipes...

...they are not. They want all the transportation methods so they can flood the market with excess. Sure, it drives price down in theory, but it rarely reflects an overall decrease in price, because why would they?

# ¿ Nov 3, 2016 20:54

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Goodpancakes posted:

Was this directed at me in particular? I wasn't using how poor and bombed out that county is as the reason why the pipe should cross there, exactly the opposite rather. Just pointing out that it was moved out of the center of power in ND in a vastly rich white area to one of the poorest in the nation.

Ah, sorry, didn't realize.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 00:47

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Gobbeldygook posted:

No, the worst part is people like you parroting protester talking points.

It's not their land and it never was their land.

Standing Rock mostly ignored the government's inquiries for months, but at various points did walk around and point out stuff they cared about although sometimes they were clearly just loving with the government (e.g. they dragged the Corps to graveyard that was 1.2 miles away from the proposed pipeline).

Why should we bail out the leadership? If there's no obvious consequence to electing idiots, their voters will keep electing them.

Cool.

Let's just ignore this:

gfsincere posted:

Best (worst) part is, the pipeline was originally supposed to go through Bismarck but the white people there were like "lol gtfo" and so they basically went to the government saying "ahhh, you guys don't keep treaties with NAs anyways, let us run the pipeline all through their poo poo".

And here we are.

Bunch of white people raise a fuss, and everyone is okay. But people that live immediately south of a planned cross for the pipe and its bring out the MRAPS.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 03:54

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

I don't think anyone in Bismark tried to enter private property and physically block work on the pipeline.

Because it never started.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 04:15

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Gobbeldygook posted:

No, it's what happens when you are the weaker party. The stronger party gets to dictate the terms. Sometimes you don't like the terms. Thems the breaks.

Just stop. Seriously. Stop. This makes you look like an rear end in a top hat, because the Native Americans have literally been had genocide conducted against them under terms like this.

Might makes right is bullshit. Just because Might will probably get its way does not make it 'Right'.

Gobbeldygook posted:

1. No, it isn't. I am utterly sincere in my belief that if they want to invoke the treaties when it's good for them, they need to abide by the parts they don't like. That means if we wanted to run a twelve lane NAFTA superhighway right through the Standing Rock Reservation, we could and they would be entitled to payment for the land taken.
2. This is the same justification China uses for staking territorial claims on all of its neighbors. Do you think it's right when China does it?
3. So we have to honor treaties whenever doing so would benefit Native Americans (e.g. they have a right to hunt and fish on land that isn't theirs) but they are not required to abide by the terms of the treaty except when they want to. Are you actually reading what you type?

Holy loving poo poo, where's the growing giant Ironicat when you need it.
1. The number of times we have literally bent Native Americans over the barrel and hosed them while fully ignoring the treaties is immeasurable.
2. China is the stronger party, and its not right when they do it either.
3. When have we honored treaties with the Native Americans. Be serious now.

Dead Reckoning posted:

Do you realize how nonsensical it is to say, "huh, why did the local authorities react differently to people objecting during the planning phase and people attempting to physically block construction under way?"

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Nov 4, 2016

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 04:41

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Civilized Fishbot posted:

Hey guys

Why do you think the Standing Rock distrust the Army Corps of Engineers?

Do you think it might have to do with when the Army Corps of Engineers flooded their land in the 60s, destroying entire towns and sacred sites

http://www.msnbc.com/interactives/geography-of-poverty/nw.html

I'm not going to quote any of this, read the whole thing it's appalling

I think there was also a couple cases where certain minerals were found on native land and they were "shuffled" around and treaties re-negotiated at gunpoint.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 04:57

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

I don't know what you're getting at. Your original post was, "why did they bring out the MRAPs for the Sioux, but not the white people (of Bismark)?" It seems like the trespassing is the rather obvious distinction.

Its ironic because you're praising the people of Bismark for restraint over plans while tut-tutting the natives over carried out actions.

Also: They are protesting. Of course they are going to be trespassing.

"Why do all these people we're inconveniencing have to get in our way! Can't they find some non-interference way to protest our actions?" :bahgawd:

Dead Reckoning posted:

Based on what?

South Dakota has a legacy of abusing the Natives. Hell, some of it is ongoing right now.:

quote:

The Lakota made national news when NPR's "Lost Children, Shattered Families investigative story aired. It exposed what many critics consider to be the "kidnapping" of Lakota children from their homes by the state of South Dakota's Department of Social Services (D.S.S.). Lakota activists such as Madonna Thunder Hawk and Chase Iron Eyes, along with the People's Law Project, have alleged that Lakota grandmothers are illegally denied the right to foster their own grandchildren. They are currently working to redirect federal funding away from the state of South Dakota's D.S.S. to new tribal foster care programs. This would be a historic shift away from the state's traditional control over Lakota foster children.

And let's just pretend they didn't push this through as fast as loving possible without much recourse:

quote:

The DOI also expressed concerns about the pipeline's proximity to the tribe's water source:
The routing of a 12- to 30-inch crude oil pipeline in close proximity to and upstream of the Reservation is of serious concern to the Department. When establishing the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe's permanent homeland, the U.S. reserved waters of sufficient quantity and quality to serve the purposes of the Reservation. The Department holds more than 800,000 acres of land in trust for the Tribe that could be impacted by a leak or spill. Further, a spill could impact the waters that the Tribe and individual tribal members residing in that area rely upon for drinking and other purposes. We believe that, if the pipeline's current route along the edge of the Reservation remains an option, the potential impact on trust resources in this particular situation necessitates full analysis and disclosure of potential impacts through the preparation of an [Environmental Impact Statement].[19]
In July, the US Army Corps of Engineers approved the water crossing permits for the Dakota Access Pipeline under a �fast track� option called Permit 12.[3] As of September, the U.S Department of Justice had received more than 33,000 petitions to review all permits and order a full review of the project�s environmental effects.

Yeah, why would the Souix be upset? Obviously their concerns have been addressed :rolleyes:

quote:

Alicia Garza, founder of the Black Lives Matter social movement, contrasted the aggressive police action with the treatment of the organizers of a standoff at an Oregon wildlife refuge (acquitted of federal charges on the same day as the police raid of the camp),[67] saying "If you're white, you can occupy federal property ... and get found not guilty. No teargas, no tanks, no rubber bullets ... If you're indigenous and fighting to protect our earth, and the water we depend on to survive, you get tear gassed, media blackouts, tanks and all that."

quote:

On September 22, 2016, Victoria Tauli-Corpuz, a United Nations expert on the rights of indigenous peoples, admonished the U.S., saying, "The tribe was denied access to information and excluded from consultations at the planning stage of the project, and environmental assessments failed to disclose the presence and proximity of the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation."

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Nov 4, 2016

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 05:04

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Gobbeldygook posted:

1. That we were lovely to them in the past does not mean we are obligated to let them do whatever they want now. We are doing better. For example, the Indian Health Service is a functional fully socialized healthcare system that is only available to Native Americans. It's not funded as well as it should be, but it exists. The pipeline's planned route was diverted over 100 times in North Dakota alone just to appease Native Americans. We give Iceland poo poo for diverting construction over elves but somehow it's normal that we divert construction for Native American's belief in magical rock formations.

2. I don't know if you got the point of the China comparison. "This used to be China at some point in the past, therefore it is NOW China!" is no different from "This used to be Sioux land at some point in the past, therefore it is NOW Sioux!".That the Native Americans are incapable of reclaiming their territory is immaterial.

3. There's a $1.3 billion apology check for taking the Black Hills from them in violation of the treaty waiting for the Sioux if they would just accept it. We're being nicer.

Native Americans are 2% of the population but 4.5% of our land is set aside for reservations. In the specific case of the Standing Rock Sioux, currently a population of 8,250 people occupies 3,571.9 square miles of land for a population density of 2.3 people per square mile. Why do you think giving them even more land to not live on would help them in any way? It is my understanding that they live like most destitute people in America in trailer parks and such, but I'm open to evidence that they are actually modern hunter-gatherers in need of more territory to roam.

You're either a troll or you are incredibly dense.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 05:16

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

The best part of this conversation is how its not on their land.

.....no, its not. Its just 10 miles outside their land on a river they depend on for...well, nearly every source of water.

Its not like they are going across the state and raising an objection to it being built 500 miles away. Its only 10 miles away. Just 10.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 05:26

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

rudatron posted:

Yeah, but the country, uh, 'given' to the jews, didn't come from land taken from Germany...

Yeah, that was a bad example.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 18:24

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

DeusExMachinima posted:

That's a great point. Let's put that attitude into risk/reward terms to see what we get.

Work with the Corps for 2 years ---> Your sites maybe get hosed

Don't work with the Corps for 2 years ---> Your sites definitely get hosed

Either way it's too late except for specific objections to the water crossing. The rest of the pipeline in the reservation's area is already constructed on private property. Any sacred sites SR could've pointed out have already been hosed up.

Cool, more Might Makes Right bullshit.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 20:49

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

Most utilities are semi or wholly privately owned these days, and eminent domain is more or less essential to having a functional utility infrastructure.

This brings up a good point because this is actually part of the problem.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 21:05

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Yeah we've already highlighted that even if the pipeline was about safely transporting oil well pipelines have less overall spills their spills have larger quantity actually spilled vs Rail and that's beside the point because they continue to use the rail even after the pipeline is built claiming that the pipeline is safer is just an excuse to get it approved for construction their goal at the end of the day is to continue using Rail and the pipeline to get more quantity the market they could care less about the safety

# ¿ Nov 5, 2016 04:00

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Liquid Communism posted:

Do you have a better word for 'propelled a projectile out of a firearm via expansion of gasses from a gunpowder explosion' than shoot? Because it's an accurate description here.

This is what I'm trying to figure out.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2016 19:18

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

rudatron posted:

They already made a $25 million liability insurance in Iowa, by that might only be the case in Iowa. A similar agreement here would probably be the best outcome for all parties, so hopefully the sioux nation can get that out of them. The pipeline gets built, the people living on the reservations get an insurance payout in case of a spill, and the protestors will have proven that you can't just ignore native americans.

That's assuming they'll actually pay out when an accident happens as we've seen in the past they tend to be rather resistant

# ¿ Nov 6, 2016 10:52

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

rudatron posted:

If you have an agreement in writing, then it won't be up to them, but the justice system. You've got better odds, and getting that is in itself a 'victory' for the protests.

They have better lawyers.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2016 11:46

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

The company is in line to eat a $100,000 fine, so it's not as though they're walking off scott free.

Which isn't even pocket change for them. That's like pocket lint.

Its a price they would gladly pay because of the profits at stake for the pipe. They treat it as a cost of doing business.

# ¿ Nov 8, 2016 20:09

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

If they're just assholes who decided to bulldoze a site and throw their money around like the bad guys in an after school special, why did they bother to notify the SOHP and re-route the pipeline?

Why didn't they just stop construction and notify them right away instead of waiting 10 days?

Serious question: Can they do no wrong?

# ¿ Nov 8, 2016 21:09

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Gobbeldygook posted:

LiterallyTheWurst's link to the LA times.

I'm skeptical. If the Cops knew they were making IEDs they'd be raiding them right now. I'd be more apt to suspect a smoke/tear gas grenade that detonated badly.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2016 21:31

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

Conventional tear gas and smoke grenades don't detonate and don't contain explosives, so probably not that.

Still doesn't mean they were making IEDs. That's an incredibly bold claim.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2016 21:52

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

wateroverfire posted:

Alternately: Good on the US Government for doing its job despite the certainty of generating a shitstorm.

See: Trail of Tears

# ¿ Nov 28, 2016 15:55

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

wateroverfire posted:

So no, I don't have much sympathy for the protesters. That they put themselves in harm's way is their choice, and the consequences they reap from that are justly theirs as well. That is just the bargain you accept when you decide to step outside the law. All anyone has to do to avoid being removed from the area is go home.

If only those Civil Rights protesters had the foresight you could give them.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2016 17:38

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

wateroverfire posted:

Was going to post this, but was beaten like a protester. =(

They have every right to protest, and you're hilarious incompetent at hand-waving the rights or protesters where it suits you.

wateroverfire posted:

Plenty, of course. And it wasn't unjust to arrest them for tresspassing. Why would you think it was?

Just stop. Not only is this so incredibly ironic, its even more ironic that you don't grasp just what the trespassing charges where about, and are aptly using what is largely considered a national embarrassment as justification for arresting protesters. Are you seriously so daft that you would argue that Jim Crow wasn't wrong, but that the protesters were wrong for not standing up to unjust laws? Do you have any clue who pathetically short sighted that makes you sound? Their direct protesting and the resulting violence against their protest helped lead directly to the Civil Rights Act being passed.

Again: Native American's have every right to protest this, considering how its been largely forced through the courts and considering our endlessly bad treatment of the Native Americans.

And Jarmak is not a good resource on protester's rights.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Nov 28, 2016

# ¿ Nov 28, 2016 18:09

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

wateroverfire posted:

...within the law, sure.
...
Dude, you're the one making analogies to the Civil Rights movement. Go ahead and tell me all about how stopping DAPL is just like ending Jim Crow.

You really don't get it do you. And no, you don't get to roll over on the Civil Rights analogy, since you already shot yourself in the foot by saying their arrests were justified during protests against unjust law, you goofball.

The sheer amount of bullshit we've pulled on the Native Americans makes it perfectly reasonable that they should take the protest to further ends, considering there was never any reasonable way for them to fight it in the court and the courts have never been very fair to the Natives regardless.

That's where the Civil Rights analogy came in: The laws that the protesters broke during the Civil Rights era were unjust. They were always unjust. There was never a point where breaking said law should have been considered wrong, and the disgusting reaction of the South to those protesters directly lead to the passage of the Civil Rights act.

Seriously: Protesting gets you nowhere unless you shake things up and bend some laws, and considering the level of Law Enforcement responds to the DPL protests, its still not making the US look very good.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 28, 2016

# ¿ Nov 28, 2016 18:22

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

wateroverfire posted:

I mean...not really, though? It's not on their land (no matter how much some would like to relitigate that issue), they were extensively consulted on the preservation of cultural sites through a process many other tribes found satisfactory, and even the water issue is moot considering the pipeline placement and the fact that the CoE is switching the intakes next year anyway.

No. They were not. Specifically, the DPL construction group hid/delayed discover of multiple sites.

God, you love arguing in bad faith. Appealing to the legality of something does not inherently make it good or right. Its part of why Might Makes Right is bullshit, because it doesn't necessarily make something right, only makes something acceptable to the populous at large.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Nov 28, 2016

# ¿ Nov 28, 2016 18:26

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 22:42

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Gobbeldygook posted:

Let's imagine some time in the next year the Lakota decided to start building a new school for the reservation. In this imaginary world, Dakota Access decides to get back at them for delaying the pipeline by paying people $200/day to squat on the land the school is to be built on and says they'll pay more squatters to squat anywhere they try to build the school for the next seven months. Would you support the squatters right to protest construction projects they don't like? Would it be any different if they were just Dakota Access employees who took some leave time? Or if instead of Dakota Access paying for it it was crowd funded?

Seriously, that's a pathetic comparison. Try again. That's not even barely worth addressing, comparing a multi-billion dollar for profit company's pet project to pump-and-dump as much oil on the market as they possibly can, to building a School for what is largely considered one of the poorest groups of people in the United States who have been time and again disenfranchised by the US Government.

Also: The school doesn't generally explode/fail and pollute when it breaks.

Fansy posted:

I don't care what's legal, they're fighting for water.

If the pipeline is so loving safe, run it by the white people's water supply in Bismarck like the original plan called for.

Gotta love NIMBYs.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2016 18:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > DAPL: coward pipe defeats water protectors

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