Is the alt-right better or worse than the establishment right?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Is the alt-right better or worse than the establishment right?

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Ddraig posted:

Furthermore it also goes to show that families where one parent dies are better off than if they go through a divorce.

So what you're saying is; if you truly love your children, you should kill your spouse instead of file for divorce?

# ¿ Sep 26, 2016 15:21

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 06:27

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Ddraig posted:

If they never find out it would probably be a net improvement, I guess.

Ideally you wouldn't need to kill anyone, though.

I forgot the obvious alternative of killing yourself, in case your believe your spouse is a better parent. I guess you could also just fake your death.

# ¿ Sep 26, 2016 16:15

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Most FYAD regulars identify as SJW's now.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2016 17:49

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Fututor Magnus posted:

Except those who are doing it ironically and are maybe, probably, non-ironic alt-right. I'm basing this on the fact that those who are enraged at the FYAD use of SJW, ironic or otherwise, are GBS and don't get irony, marking them as the non-ironic anti-SJWs.

Frankly, I find this attitude disgusting. They destroyed GBS for its transphobia, and this is the thanks they get?

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 05:07

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Crowsbeak posted:

Let's be honest. Churchill was also a bit of a monster what with starving the Bengals and using gas on revolting natives in Iraq.

I think "genocidal lunatic" falls under monster.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 18:28

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

I think most people really do laugh at shock stuff. There being an actual movie called "gay niggers from outerspace" is so absurd and unexpected and awful it's funny.

What's so awful about a movie that celebrates the African gay community of Denmark?

# ¿ Sep 30, 2016 16:35

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

on the left posted:

If fascists build their base from losers, how come a bunch of losers who can't get a job despite every privilege in the world came out to support Bernie Sanders?

It doesn't follow that because fascists recruit losers, all losers must become fascists, anymore than all bricks must become part of crematoriums.

# ¿ Oct 1, 2016 20:32

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

rudatron posted:

Why did you use the word 'zionism'? Is this some weird UFO-anti-semitism you've got going on now?

Zionism is the historical term used for Jewish nationalism, is it not?

# ¿ Oct 3, 2016 16:07

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

OwlFancier posted:

Sort of yes but generally when people go on about Zionists they're usually talking about how the Jews are destroying the world.

Like it shouldn't be the case but it kind of is.

I'm taking the word back.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2016 16:46

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

steinrokkan posted:

Wasn't McDowell basically cogent at some point in time, or am I misremembering things?

If he wasn't, we're both becoming saner.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2016 17:11

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

boner confessor posted:

yeah if only one of the parties was talking about increasing the minimum wage

Though the whole bit about only 1% of job growth benefiting those people does kinda explain why those people would be angry. During the period those roughly 100k blue collar jobs were created, the US population grew by about 15 million. It's all well and good to make people doing poo poo jobs get paid more, but making sure those jobs actually exist seems pretty important too.

Aside from that, minimum wage jobs, even with that increase, are probably paid way worse than the jobs a lot of these people used to have. Which of course means that the two-pronged help these people are seeing is either completely useless because they can't take on the jobs created, or a major step down from where they used to be.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2016 06:38

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

It isn't just underclass anomie. It's also disaffected elites who feel their relative power is slipping. Think car dealership owners.

They respect his will to power. He's the �bermensch version of their own sad existence.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2016 18:38

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

rkajdi posted:

I'm assuming you meant to ask "Why is Nationalism necessarily bad?" because that actually fits with everything else you wrote there. Nationalism is a bad philosophy if only because like race and religion, it's an attempt to create more artificial barriers between people. I mean, what difference is more artificial than being on different sides of an arbitrarily drawn line on a map?

States and nations are not the same thing. Nationalism isn't inherently about people outside or inside your borders, it's about people you feel cultural affinity with or not. That's why Russians feel justified in loving around in Eastern Ukraine, because the political boundary is seen as irrelevant compared to the perceived cultural border running through Ukraine.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2016 19:16

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

rkajdi posted:

If we're talking nation along the lines of ethnicity or whatever other blurry pseudo-race people are using to try to justify actions, think of them as equally dumb as race. It's an unscientific arbitrary divider that is changed arbitrarily to fit whatever position is useful at the moment. See any issue with race or religion ever. The person I was responding to seemed to be discussing nation as nation-state considering the examples he had given.

Much like race though, nationalism can be used by the weak and oppressed to find common cause against their oppressors.

rkajdi posted:

I'm an American personally, and I also think that complaining about the latest wave of different people immigrating to the US when (assuming you are not a Native American) all of our ancestors took advantage of the situation is the most rank hypocrisy. I understand it will probably personally affect me negatively, but being consistent and equal is more important than FYGM. I'm also in favor of all other states opening up and destroying the concept of an ethno/religious state through immigration.

This is an easy position to take as a member of a nation which, in such a scenario, would be in one of the best positions to maintain their culture and expand it while others are quickly drowned out.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2016 20:43

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

rkajdi posted:

I dunno. The US has done a pretty piss poor job of keeping its culture "safe" from migration waves. IMO this is a good thing, of course, since the addition of immigrant communities has been a huge boon to the US economy. Half the reason why the US motion picture industry (which is often shown as the spearhead of US cultural hegemony) took off is because of the initial work done by Jewish immigrants and children of immigrants when it was an "illegitimate" job and thus unworthy of the established white community. The reason US culture tends to do well is because it tends to absorb parts from other cultures and is syncretic in ways that for instance European culture just isn't currently. If the way you assimilate cultures is to make part of their culture yours, I'm not sure that's drowning out so much as just having a combination of the two. I'll also be the first to admit that we haven't done perfectly with this-- look at the Native Americans for a great example of the US stomping the living gently caress out of another culture and not really combining with it. But the way to remove the artificial barriers between people is going to be accepting that what ends up existing is a combination of the two, and that end of the difference is a good thing not a bad one.

I'm talking current US culture, which now constitutes a larger group relative to immigrant groups, and which through its media has at its disposal a much stronger assimilationist tool than it used to. I also think you're romanticizing how the US absorbed immigrants, the concerted pressure to stamp out cultures of questionable loyalty (Germans and other northern Europeans which were lumped in with them during WW1) has resulted in way less syncreticism than if those cultures had been allowed to integrate peacefully over time, and that's a pretty sizable chunk of modern Americans.

Also, you're underestimating the strength of US culture, which is powerful enough to partially assimilate people outside its borders. In a free-for-all scenario, many smaller cultures would no longer be able to remain the focus for their own syncretic absorption within their own cultural borders, when in direct competition with the American (or possibly Chinese) juggernaut. Basically, new arrivals would just become English/Chinese speakers, if they weren't already, and the natives would just go along with it because hey, why not, that's easier for everyone involved.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2016 15:53

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

mojo1701a posted:

The only time you ever see Euro-fascists mention religion is when it comes as a rallying cry about a traditional identity being used, like when people say, "Since when is Muslim a race?" but you know full well they don't give a poo poo about Christian Arabs, either.

That's not true at all, not that you're the only one saying things to this effect. Some of them are definitely strongly and loudly religious too.

NikkolasKing posted:

Are you saying Christmas itself is racist or that there was a parade with some sort of racist imagery?

Dutch (as in the country of the Netherlands, not Denmark) Christmas includes these characters:

# ¿ Oct 5, 2016 19:01

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

computer parts posted:

Like yes, there are white dudes that are treated terribly by cops but still orders of magnitude better than a non-white person in that same situation. There's no reason that cops would have to get more nasty with the white dudes if this hypothetical did happen.

Unless they're naturally violent people, and black people just happen to be a lightning rod for their rage. Not saying this is universally true, or that racism might not increase their desire to beat people up, but I wouldn't be surprised at some of them reacting to a deemphasizing of the race divide with an emphasizing of the cop/civilian divide.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 15:55

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Spacedad posted:

If you're 'lucky' you can even get alt righties using your trollposts as 'evidence' of white genocide being real and citing you in their racist thinkpieces. Which keeps happening to pals of mine.

Ironic racism is still racism.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 16:22

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steinrokkan posted:

Political power where? In Europe, or in America?

If you had watched the award-winning masterpiece, The Wire, you'd know that Polish immigrants control all ports in America.

Seriously though, I'm pretty sure Spacedad meant in America. The trick prospective whites used to gain acceptance in the US basically seems to have been to show a united front, in their daily lives and in politics, allowing them to unite their influence within an industry/profession, as well as during elections. Sort of like a union for a specific ethnic group.

# ¿ Oct 11, 2016 15:33

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Tias posted:

A lot of people itt use the adjective 'incel'. What does it mean?

Incest lovers.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2016 16:09

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Arglebargle III posted:

Yes. There are white and black siblings.

link

Genetic diversity exists and race is a cultural construct. There's nothing mutually exclusive about those two ideas.

To expand on this, IIRC, West Africa is way more genetically diverse than the rest of the world put together. Likely due to the rest of the world being mostly descended from only a sample of the diversity in Africa.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2016 05:28

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BarbarianElephant posted:

It's not just anime-obsessed hikikomori, it's also that the culture doesn't have much space for mothers who also have careers. So if a woman wants to have a career, she needs to put off starting a family and also be sure that her husband can support the family on his own.

Note: Japan's economy has been in a 20 year slump, so a man expected to support a family on his own is going to have a hard time.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2016 20:17

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

OwlFancier posted:

I think that what makes underrepresented groups underrepresented is not other minority groups being over represented, but instead majority groups excluding underrepresented minorities.

Though I'm sure you think otherwise.

If any group is overrepresented, one or more other groups must necessarily be underrepresented. If you don't want any groups underrepresented, you must ensure that no group is overrepresented. (Though clearly there is something to be said for focusing your efforts where the disparity is most egregious.)

In regards to the current discussion, I'm pretty sure though that "Asian" needs to be split up into subgroups to be properly discussed. The "model minority" stereotype doesn't fit all Asian American groups equally well, with many's experience matching the Hispanic experience far more than the former. I suppose you might see some divergences too if you split the "white" group up into sub-groups, like various European-Americans, Jewish Americans, Arab Americans, and so on.

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Oct 23, 2016

# ¿ Oct 23, 2016 21:10

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Stat goons? Can you drop some statistics on us, so we can see which racial sub-groups do well within the American education system and which don't? Ideally divided according to how elite the educational institution is too.

Lightning Knight posted:

We're seeing it in Scandanavia too. They're happily dismantling their nice welfare states because too many brown people showed up asking to be treated as people too. Basically all the countries with strong welfare states are super ethnically homogenous and when that second part changes FYGM goes into full force. As the US becomes minority-majority we will be the experimental First World nation that sees if we can swing back to having a decent welfare state now that angry white people throwing a tantrum won't be the majority.

In Scandinavia, we got dragged along by the ideological waves emanating out of the US before we saw any real immigration, at least at the top level. Which sorta switched around cause and effect, by starting the breakdown of the welfare state before there was more than a fringe reaction to immigration. By the time that reaction became mainstream (fueled by the political class, already having aligned itself politically along American lines), it really did start to accelerate though.

Lightning Knight posted:

If I recall correctly, it's a combination of immigration and the natural decline in birthrate among white Americans. The US is the only country with a positive immigration rate, and contrary to popular belief it's not all from Mexico either. I'm phone posting from work so I don't have any more than that for you, unfortunately.

??? Most/all Western countries have a positive immigration rate.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 05:57

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Lightning Knight posted:

This, yes. And by only country in the world I meant more specifically First World, I suppose. Phone posting is hard.

Most of "Old Europe" has a net-population growth too. The US falls somewhere in the middle in that regard. That said, Eastern Europe isn't even managing stagnation at the moment.

Lightning Knight posted:

Interesting. What ideological waves? How did we affect Scandinavia?

murphyslaw posted:

I think he is referring to things like neoliberal capitalism in general. I could be wrong though.

Yeah, basically. The US as "the leader of the Free World" was and is a natural inspiration for politics outside the US, even in countries where the original cause of a change in politics wasn't actually present. Talking specifically Denmark, since that's what I'm most familiar with, we've sorta followed along since the 80's, going from conservative austerity to counteract wage increases, to a liberalization of the labor market under a Third Way Social Democrat after an internal struggle in the party (which clearly cemented their future policies), to right-wing interventionists in the Bush years. In recent times we've kinda disconnected I suppose, as anti-immigrant views have grown prominent enough (and the European project right wing and powerful enough) to counteract the US sorta putting a break on the absolutely most dysfunctional parts of the ideology.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 13:44

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Some Guy TT posted:

Ooo, and since Denmark is on topic, the case of Lucia de Berk is an especially depressing anecdote.

It's always depressing when people mix up Denmark and the Netherlands.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 14:20

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Lightning Knight posted:

That's not what I said though. We can enact policies to help them. To help them retrain and go back to school and find good jobs and ideally to rebuild the labor movement and unions in America.

No. For some, sure, but in aggregate this plan is not going to work out either. It's a race with a moving finishing line, and more and more people are going to be in a position where they simply don't have the capability to catch up to the realities of the new job market. For the ones that do, the finishing line might suddenly lurch ahead of them again, and they might not be able to catch up a second time. Yes, where it is possible you should of course retrain people, but it would be a good idea to get ahead of the curve and start preparing for a system which doesn't assume people have to work, because at some point there isn't going to be any sort of work for the majority, and that point might not be that far away.

Rush Limbo posted:

Like I said, I like Bernie but he didn't actually engage meaningfully with the issues that people cared about.

People in this case meaning specifically people participating in the democratic primaries. His problem seems more that his main plank is sort of bi/nonpartisan, in the sense that neither party establishment is super enthusiastic about it, while the general population is much more supportive of various thorough reforms to the systems which screw over all Americans.

Rush Limbo posted:

It's kind of hard to make the case that white men are not garbage human beings when that composes near 100% of the alt right, even if you were to take that rhetoric at face value.

If the worst thing that happens to you is that your day is slightly inconvenienced by people saying mean things count yourself lucky. Other people wish they could have things that easy.

100% of the alt right being white men doesn't mean 100% of white men are alt right.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 16:30

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 06:27

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

stone cold posted:

I'm glad that you think slavery was imagined, friend.

Do you think the holocaust happened?

He said real or imagined. Like slavery vs. blood libel.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2016 08:18

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