Lets talk about docker

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > Lets talk about docker

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Smythe: Oct 12, 2003

paging pram to the docker thread

# ? Oct 6, 2016 22:26

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 20:34

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

op I'm more of a vagrant kind of guy

# ? Oct 6, 2016 22:36

Raere: Dec 13, 2007

is docker only for devs or as a sys admin does it bring me any benefit to running prod stuff in containers?

# ? Oct 7, 2016 00:17

Jonny 290: May 5, 2005; [ASK] me about OS/2 Warp

the benefits of docker to the sysadmin are that you set up the bare metal and then tell the devs to shut the gently caress up and use their containers thats what theyre there for

I mean yes, pragmatically speaking, anything you want to deploy as a 'dumb' microservice that doesnt store data inside of itself and you want to scale, or migrate around, or whatever, you can shove in docker. but the biggest benefit is liberating sysadmin/ops from janitoring metal or virtual machines ad-hoc so the devs can deploy this new rotating skull gif, at least imo

# ? Oct 7, 2016 00:20

Syncopated: Oct 21, 2010

roctor is old

# ? Oct 7, 2016 00:48

Roctor: Aug 23, 2005; The doctor of rock.

Symbolic Butt posted:

op I'm more of a vagrant kind of guy

we use vagrant for all of our dev/qa right now which is pretty good, but dealing with chef recipes for deploying bums me out. we use aws opsworks so we're sort of forced into chef either that or figure out how to deploy ansible "recipes" (or whatever they're called) with chef which sounds like a bad time.

Syncopated posted:

roctor is old

i am 31/m/az u?

# ? Oct 7, 2016 03:34

SpaceAceJase: Nov 8, 2008; and you
have proved
to be...

a real shitty poster,
and a real james

I also thought it was old man rotor

# ? Oct 7, 2016 04:10

the talent deficit: Dec 20, 2003; self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture

CRIP EATIN BREAD posted:

yes, which is fine. but my original point for suggesting not to use ECS was simply to avoid these headaches for someone who just wants to gently caress with docker

it takes like five minutes to setup efs with ecs

(efs and ecs are bad tho, you should prob consider kubernetes and just not having stateful containers)

# ? Oct 7, 2016 05:23

WilWheaton: Oct 11, 2006; It'd be hard to get bored on this ship!

I spin up my dockers by git cloning. Is this wrong? tell me yospos

# ? Oct 7, 2016 05:33

FamDav: Mar 29, 2008

the talent deficit posted:

it takes like five minutes to setup efs with ecs

(efs and ecs are bad tho, you should prob consider kubernetes and just not having stateful containers)

if kubernetes works for you that's cool, though I've noticed people realizing that running your own HA cluster management control plane sucks :/. I know they've been working on making this tractable for people, though.

also efs is cool and or good

CRIP EATIN BREAD posted:

yes, which is fine. but my original point for suggesting not to use ECS was simply to avoid these headaches for someone who just wants to gently caress with docker

this is valid. ecs and kubernetes are a layer on top of docker that might he unnecessary complexity to start with

# ? Oct 7, 2016 05:48

FamDav: Mar 29, 2008

jre posted:

ECS is a HA clustered system and trying to store state on an ephemeral instance is dumb. If you need state it should be in something like s3 / dynamo / RDS / efs

If you are using cloudy things you should assume that individual boxes can disappear at any time, they often do.

yes, though IMO cluster managers need to be better at letting you run stateful applications. kubernetes is doing some stuff with petsets here, buts alpha and there are still limitations.

# ? Oct 7, 2016 06:04

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

lancemantis posted:

isnt the whole coreos/"virtualization" trend just nerds micromanaging resources and giving decades of OS and scheduler research the finger

all because their app runs terribly sometimes and they cant be bothered to figure out whats wrong with their terrible software

it's great for hpc where you want to be certain that the processes you launch behave correctly and your cluster servers don't crash from deadlocks

# ? Oct 7, 2016 07:00

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

also docker sucks and i hate it. appc/rkt seems to be simpler than docker, which is good since docker's creators can't figure out years old basic bugs in their poo poo

# ? Oct 7, 2016 07:02

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Bloody posted:

please do not drag skinny jeans into this

indeed, dockers are pants for the bigger-butted man

# ? Oct 7, 2016 07:07

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

lancemantis posted:

isnt the whole coreos/"virtualization" trend just nerds micromanaging resources and giving decades of OS and scheduler research the finger

all because their app runs terribly sometimes and they cant be bothered to figure out whats wrong with their terrible software

p much

# ? Oct 7, 2016 07:08

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Gazpacho posted:

only forth coders are allowed to say this

what about lispm users

I need to replace a fuse on my Symbolics so it can access the network again, a Symbolics with neither network nor console is not a usable Symbolics (no serial console)

# ? Oct 7, 2016 07:10

the talent deficit: Dec 20, 2003; self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture

Condiv posted:

also docker sucks and i hate it. appc/rkt seems to be simpler than docker, which is good since docker's creators can't figure out years old basic bugs in their poo poo

yeah docker is really, really bad

rkt is pretty good. hopefully appc will follow it

# ? Oct 7, 2016 07:11

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

isn't docker also written in javascript or go or some plang like that?

# ? Oct 7, 2016 07:38

Jonny 290: May 5, 2005; [ASK] me about OS/2 Warp

js and go are nothing alike but its written in the latter

# ? Oct 7, 2016 07:47

jony ive aces: Jun 14, 2012; designer of the lomarf car; Buglord

jre posted:

ECS is a HA clustered system and trying to store state on an ephemeral instance is dumb. If you need state it should be in something like s3 / dynamo / RDS / efs

If you are using cloudy things you should assume that individual boxes can disappear at any time, they often do.

Gazpacho posted:

It really is sad how easily people ignore this

yeah i learned this a few days ago when i got an email from amazon saying they'd detected a fault with the server my instance was on, that my instance had been deactivated and would be deleted entirely in 2 weeks. was still able to clone it and recreate it on a new server but obviously that's not a longterm solution if the same thing is going to happen again. lucky i'm only using it for dumb hobby poo poo because it meant a few hours of downtime

in my defence, when i signed up for the free tier a few months ago, i started on amazon's own tutorials and one was about how to set up a LAMP stack on EC2 that tells you to ssh into the instance and yum install mysqld etc so amazon themselves seem p dumb lol

edit: like i just assumed that if a server was going to be decommissioned and the fuckin instance had already stopped working it would just make sense for them to automatically clone & move it for you? i guess not though :yayclod:

jony ive aces fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Oct 7, 2016

# ? Oct 7, 2016 09:04

cowboy beepboop: Feb 24, 2001

Jonny 290 posted:

the benefits of docker to the sysadmin are that you set up the bare metal and then tell the devs to shut the gently caress up and use their containers thats what theyre there for

I mean yes, pragmatically speaking, anything you want to deploy as a 'dumb' microservice that doesnt store data inside of itself and you want to scale, or migrate around, or whatever, you can shove in docker. but the biggest benefit is liberating sysadmin/ops from janitoring metal or virtual machines ad-hoc so the devs can deploy this new rotating skull gif, at least imo

sure but all the microservices need configuration, like you're not going to deploy postfix/haproxy/whatever with no config, and you have to work out how to get that config into the containers and you're back to using ansible/chef/puppet and the benefits are marginal apart from some slightly better resource usage
the real magic only happens when you work out the various service discovery and autoscaling mechanisms and spinning up a container is way faster/easier than a whole VM

# ? Oct 7, 2016 09:16

cowboy beepboop: Feb 24, 2001

then you start to read about container networking and you end up with the weird situation where your containers have their own private ip space behind your VM private ip space and your firewall is doing 1-1nat to the hypervisior which has it owns virtual router and something happens with network bridges inside VMs and everything is lost in your own cloud

# ? Oct 7, 2016 09:18

cowboy beepboop: Feb 24, 2001

oh and then docker compose is not compatible with fleet which is not compatible with kubernetes so you end up doing everything manually anyway instead of leveraging existing solutions

# ? Oct 7, 2016 09:22

Jonny 290: May 5, 2005; [ASK] me about OS/2 Warp

my stepdads beer posted:

sure but all the microservices need configuration, like you're not going to deploy postfix/haproxy/whatever with no config, and you have to work out how to get that config into the containers and you're back to using ansible/chef/puppet and the benefits are marginal apart from some slightly better resource usage
the real magic only happens when you work out the various service discovery and autoscaling mechanisms and spinning up a container is way faster/easier than a whole VM

oh yeah you gotta have a repo server inhouse and everythings gotta be bootstrapping and cheffing and automagic as gently caress for sure, but i think the notion is that you have one dumb thing in the container so a chef-client run is like 3.6 seconds. if you spend too much overhead getting the container ready, just use VMs or whatever.

also if you're doing a bunch of redeployment and your app is fairly complex, wouldnt it maybe end up faster having this little eight-docker mini web and you're only re-cheffing the one that gets changed? i dunno. DEVOPS

# ? Oct 7, 2016 09:28

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

kubernetes is really cool imo, go watch some Kelsey Hightower talks about neat stuff u can do with it

if you ever get a chance to meet him he's real chill

# ? Oct 7, 2016 13:03

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

ive never used docker in production but it's great for development

i just recreate our prod environments in containers and it's cool

# ? Oct 7, 2016 15:09

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

uncurable mlady posted:

kubernetes is really cool imo, go watch some Kelsey Hightower talks about neat stuff u can do with it

if you ever get a chance to meet him he's real chill

my crippling social anxiety prevents me from doing either of these things

sounds cool though

# ? Oct 7, 2016 15:11

Mr SuperAwesome: Apr 6, 2011; im from the bad post police, and i'm afraid i have bad news

i dont get docker and how it would help me literally at all over like a bash script in a python virtual environment or something

maybe if i wanted to set up my own db instances from scratch instaed of making our devops guys do it? but then how do you get the tables you want set up?

so yeah idgi whats the point of it u guys

# ? Oct 7, 2016 15:17

obstipator: Nov 8, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Docker Dre

# ? Oct 7, 2016 15:34

FamDav: Mar 29, 2008

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

i dont get docker and how it would help me literally at all over like a bash script in a python virtual environment or something

maybe if i wanted to set up my own db instances from scratch instaed of making our devops guys do it? but then how do you get the tables you want set up?

so yeah idgi whats the point of it u guys

they are all variations on the same ideas, namely

* how do I reproducibly build this anywhere?
* how do I reproducibly run this anywhere?

docker attempts both and gets a good bit right. unfortunately, rather than building the best on-box container manager they're trying to build container orchestration frameworks (remember: the cloud company that spawned docker failed). this represents its own issues (why am I deploying my container orchestration and my infrastructure management management to all boxes?) but also means less focus on making the actual container engine rock solid.

rkt is cool because it actually just wants to be a container engine, but

* no mac/windows support
* not widely used in industry (compared to docker)
* unproven? though lol docker in production still has issues.

in an ideal world something like rkt would win mindshare or docker would refocus, but this Herero world is hosed sooooo

# ? Oct 7, 2016 16:02

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

i do those things by using windows

# ? Oct 7, 2016 16:22

FamDav: Mar 29, 2008

uncurable mlady posted:

kubernetes is really cool imo, go watch some Kelsey Hightower talks about neat stuff u can do with it

if you ever get a chance to meet him he's real chill

Kelsey is great, though I know the person who had his job before he moved to google

.

kubernetes is cool. the project has certainly gotten a good bit better at setup and maintenance in production, and the # of instances you can run with it have gone up quite a bit. my biggest remaining criticism is that their control plane is still single AZ (they added multi-AZ support for pods a few months back), which for me would be too much of an availability risk.

# ? Oct 7, 2016 16:52

the talent deficit: Dec 20, 2003; self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture

FamDav posted:

Kelsey is great, though I know the person who had his job before he moved to google .

kubernetes is cool. the project has certainly gotten a good bit better at setup and maintenance in production, and the # of instances you can run with it have gone up quite a bit. my biggest remaining criticism is that their control plane is still single AZ (they added multi-AZ support for pods a few months back), which for me would be too much of an availability risk.

yeah it's a giant red flag that the control plane can't run inside the cluster

# ? Oct 7, 2016 19:21

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

i dont get docker and how it would help me literally at all over like a bash script in a python virtual environment or something

you can write a bash script that deploys your app but it won't capture the environment in which it should run (eg. a particular OS release) and that impairs the reproducibility of your deployment. a Dockerfile captures the deployment process and the environment. you can say "vagrant does the same thing" because it does, but typically at the cost of full hardware virtualization

# ? Oct 7, 2016 20:25

the talent deficit: Dec 20, 2003; self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture

in theory, docker is nice because you can create a single container image and then deploy it to test, staging, production, dev, demo, whereever with different env vars set for that particular environment. you don't need config management because the config is static (except for the env vars)

it's also nice because your image can run something like alpine linux or some cutting edge linux distro or even some obscure os but they can run on any host that can run docker. so if your image needs some crazy dragonflybsd kernel extension you can still run it on fedora or whatever and your sys admins won't have to learn dragonflybsd

of course docker sucks because you have to worry about things like network overlays and container orchestrators and the absolutely terrible tooling for building containers

# ? Oct 7, 2016 21:31

BONGHITZ: Jan 1, 1970

docker sucks because computers suck

# ? Oct 7, 2016 22:15

FamDav: Mar 29, 2008

the talent deficit posted:

in theory, docker is nice because you can create a single container image and then deploy it to test, staging, production, dev, demo, whereever with different env vars set for that particular environment. you don't need config management because the config is static (except for the env vars)

it's also nice because your image can run something like alpine linux or some cutting edge linux distro or even some obscure os but they can run on any host that can run docker. so if your image needs some crazy dragonflybsd kernel extension you can still run it on fedora or whatever and your sys admins won't have to learn dragonflybsd

of course docker sucks because you have to worry about things like network overlays and container orchestrators and the absolutely terrible tooling for building containers

My favorite docker tidbit is that every step of a docker file creates a new layer, soooooo if you pull a bunch of data in one step and then discard it later you're still downloading all that data every single time you pull that image.

# ? Oct 7, 2016 22:23

JewKiller 3000: Nov 28, 2006; by Lowtax

Jonny 290 posted:

js and go are nothing alike but its written in the latter

javascript and go are alike in that they both suck

# ? Oct 7, 2016 23:00

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

FamDav posted:

Kelsey is great, though I know the person who had his job before he moved to google .

kubernetes is cool. the project has certainly gotten a good bit better at setup and maintenance in production, and the # of instances you can run with it have gone up quite a bit. my biggest remaining criticism is that their control plane is still single AZ (they added multi-AZ support for pods a few months back), which for me would be too much of an availability risk.

we're active contributors to the dashboard, I can talk to some people and see where that's roadmapped at if it isn't out there already

# ? Oct 7, 2016 23:57

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 20:34

Arcsech: Aug 5, 2008

JewKiller 3000 posted:

javascript and go are alike in that they both suck

# ? Oct 8, 2016 06:11

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