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Did they even do anything worthwhile after that? They should've changed it back in '07 to bypass that shithead lieberman.
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Jan 29, 2017 15:34
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At this point I wonder what effect trying to get farther left people into the Democrats at this point would even accomplish when the Liberal stalwarts are going along with this poo poo
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Jan 29, 2017 15:40
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The main issue with people whining about the DNC in this thread is they drastically overstate the strength of the left and they bitterly hide their head in the sand over how moderate American politics is and how the center wins elections. They loathe incremental change and are willing to let the GOP, once in power, go full nuts and take us 10 steps back to "show us a thing or two." Shammypants fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jan 29, 2017 |
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Jan 29, 2017 17:07
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XyrlocShammypants posted:the center wins elections. The elections in your imagination don't count
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Jan 29, 2017 17:14
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XyrlocShammypants posted:The main issue with people whining about the DNC in this thread is they drastically overstate the strength of the left and they bitterly hide their head in the sand over how moderate American politics is and how the center wins elections. What elections have the democrats won again? Do we control most of the government or do the republicans control most of the government?
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Jan 29, 2017 17:18
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XyrlocShammypants posted:The main issue with people whining about the DNC in this thread is they drastically overstate the strength of the left and they bitterly hide their head in the sand over how moderate American politics is and how the center wins elections. Oh is that what happened in '16, good to know. Hey can someone call Eric Cantor? There's apparently been a big mix up over the past 10 years.
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Jan 29, 2017 17:21
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XyrlocShammypants posted:The main issue with people whining about the DNC in this thread is they drastically overstate the strength of the left and they bitterly hide their head in the sand over how moderate American politics is and how the center wins elections. Right now your centrist dems you love just voted GOP nominees. Also.  Yeah you lost with centricism and your kind is the biggest losers in America. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jan 29, 2017 |
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Jan 29, 2017 17:31
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Oh poo poo guys turns out we've actually been WINNING this whole time!
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Jan 29, 2017 17:47
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KomradeX posted:The Democrats are a dead loving end. There's no salvaging the party My local senator Diane Feinstein is dead to me: https://cabinetvotes.org/ Seriously, what the gently caress is going on here!? If Trump's cabinet picks are really the new Third Reich like the Democrats have been screaming about then there shouldn't be a single D vote legitimizing them. Either they're not actually that bad, in which case the Democrats lying to us in a big way, or they are and the Democrats are being steamrolled by/making deals with Nazis. What. The actual. gently caress!?
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Jan 29, 2017 18:10
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KomradeX posted:The Democrats are a dead loving end. There's no salvaging the party quote:“They want us to fight, but elections have consequences,” Sen. Brian Schatz of Hawaii also told the Post.
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Jan 29, 2017 18:35
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The Democrats are so short sighted and in denial I don't think they know what honestly representing their constituents means. This is no resistance, this is mediating our destruction
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Jan 29, 2017 18:50
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XyrlocShammypants posted:The main issue with people whining about the DNC in this thread is they drastically overstate the strength of the left and they bitterly hide their head in the sand over how moderate American politics is and how the center wins elections. People in this thread were also blaming the left for whining too much and that this tipped the balance. I get that you like to argue in bad faith, how about this one: the last two successful democratic presidents both campaigned as populist candidates with wide appeal to both white and blue collar workers (even if they didn't govern that way), while Hillary and Hillary schills ignored the latter and said their votes don't matter anyways. You can successfully campaign on both as Bill and Obama showed us, which makes the Hillary campaign's handling of this message all the more unforgivable.
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Jan 29, 2017 18:56
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To play devil's advocate for the Dems as it pertains to confirming Trump's cabinet picks, I believe the senate considers a president to be entitled to name their cabinet, no matter how incompetent they may seem, only stopping those who are particularly egregious, like DeVos. IIRC, Obama's cabinet sailed through confirmation (though nothing else did after that)
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Jan 29, 2017 18:58
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XyrlocShammypants posted:
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Jan 30, 2017 01:16
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:To play devil's advocate for the Dems as it pertains to confirming Trump's cabinet picks, I believe the senate considers a president to be entitled to name their cabinet, no matter how incompetent they may seem, only stopping those who are particularly egregious, like DeVos. IIRC, Obama's cabinet sailed through confirmation (though nothing else did after that) Rick Perry is what I'd call particularly egregious. He didn't even know the scope of the DoEnergy's oversight and previously counted the department among the three he'd like to eliminate. Rex Tillerson is what I'd call particularly egregious, as his ties to Russia predispose him to unleashing Russian expansionism on Eastern Europe. Then there's Mnuchin, whose prior highlights include extracting wealth from making people homeless and as Treasury Secretary will have the power to realign financial policy toward another credit crash but not before further concentrating wealth at the top. Basically every single name he puts up should be opposed to the fullest extent of their capabilities because his actions so far have demonstrated a total lack of competence, and his nominees for cabinet staff are consistent with that incompetence. Their qualifications alone are insufficient and people should be organizing primary challenges against them from day one if they so much as glance at the possibility of waving them through. The Democratic leaders have shown their hand and it's some Quisling poo poo so the options are fight them in primaries or fight them as a third party.
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Jan 30, 2017 02:20
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XyrlocShammypants posted:The main issue with people whining about the DNC in this thread is they drastically overstate the strength of the left and they bitterly hide their head in the sand over how moderate American politics is and how the center wins elections. Like, I agree with you that people who say Trump winning is good (or voted for Trump/third party/didn't vote in a swing state) are really dumb, but that isn't true of most of the people in this thread. Even the ones who voted third party usually also mentioned how they lived in a state like CA or something where it didn't really matter. Part of arguing in good faith is arguing with the best representatives of the opposing view. And there are plenty of people in this thread who voted for Clinton and are very unhappy about Trump winning. They are arguing about why they think Clinton (and Democratic Party in general over the past 8+ years) lost and how to fix the problem. My personal view is that there isn't enough information to really be confident that moving to the left will help win elections (though there are some arguments for why it might), but that there also certainly isn't any information saying that it would hurt, so (as someone who believes moving to the left is a Good Thing that will help people), I want politicians to do that.
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Jan 30, 2017 03:40
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Ytlaya posted:Like, I agree with you that people who say Trump winning is good (or voted for Trump/third party/didn't vote in a swing state) are really dumb, but that isn't true of most of the people in this thread. Even the ones who voted third party usually also mentioned how they lived in a state like CA or something where it didn't really matter. I think there's enough evidence to support the deep polarization of the electorate which is indicative of the "chase the moderate" strategy being garbage.
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Jan 30, 2017 04:11
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readingatwork posted:My local senator Diane Feinstein is dead to me: Kelly and Mattis at least are the exceptions to the rule-they're both retired generals with a hell of a lot of experience and possess better knowledge and judgement than the rest of Trump's picks combined. Their votes were likely stacked first because they were the least objectionable and the most likely to sail through without incident. I'd hold off on calling out the Democrats for total capitulation until the assholes like DeVos and Tillerson come up for votes. Edit: For reference, only one other cabinet secretary (Tillerson) has made it out of committee, and every Democrat on the committee voted against. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jan 30, 2017 |
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Jan 30, 2017 05:27
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Ytlaya posted:My personal view is that there isn't enough information to really be confident that moving to the left will help win elections (though there are some arguments for why it might), but that there also certainly isn't any information saying that it would hurt, so (as someone who believes moving to the left is a Good Thing that will help people), I want politicians to do that. Yup this is where I'm at. "We have to sell you out to corporations in order to win" really only works as an argument if you're capable of actually winning. But they aren't. Obviously. Except by accident, if Republicans fuckup beyond belief, or the Democrat is a once-in-generation charismatic candidate versus Dole or Romney or some other interchangeable corporate stiff from the cloning vats underneath the Cato Institute. If the country's that far right that Democrats can only win by default then may as well nominate candidates who will actually do something for the people when that happens rather than another Goldman-Sachs stooge with a D instead of an R.
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Jan 30, 2017 07:02
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VitalSigns posted:Yup this is where I'm at. "We have to sell you out to corporations in order to win" really only works as an argument if you're capable of actually winning. But they aren't. Obviously. Except by accident, if Republicans fuckup beyond belief, or the Democrat is a once-in-generation charismatic candidate versus Dole or Romney or some other interchangeable corporate stiff from the cloning vats underneath the Cato Institute. Yeah me too. Like I have no idea if a left wing person would be better at getting elected but it's pretty clear that the only time the centrist Dems had a chance in the last 16 years was when the GOP hosed up so badly it couldn't be ignored combined with a one of the most charismatic politicians of our time. If that's their plan for Trump after this weekend then we are pretty much hosed staying with them as the opposition. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jan 30, 2017 |
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Jan 30, 2017 15:28
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
How many torture fetishists does she need to vote for before you'll call her out?
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Jan 30, 2017 19:12
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KomradeX posted:The Democrats are so short sighted and in denial I don't think they know what honestly representing their constituents means. This is no resistance, this is mediating our destruction Its because their constituents are silicon valley dipshits and the goblins who staff the big financial firms.
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Jan 30, 2017 19:29
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The Kingfish posted:Its because their constituents are silicon valley dipshits and the goblins who staff the big financial firms. This is true
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Jan 30, 2017 19:32
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I been saying Diane Feinstein is human garbage for a decade or more and I'm gonna keep saying it because she is human garbage. I'm perfectly willing to get on board calling Feinstein specifically an rear end in a top hat, actually.
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Jan 30, 2017 19:37
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The left needs to take over the DNC from the ground up and turn it into a genuine ideological party.
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Jan 30, 2017 20:48
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The Kingfish posted:The left needs to take over the DNC from the ground up and turn it into a genuine ideological party. Meanwhile in the land of wishes, dreams and unicorns (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 30, 2017 20:55
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XyrlocShammypants posted:Meanwhile in the land of wishes, dreams and unicorns The same place that pragmatic, incremental centrism wins elections?
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Jan 30, 2017 21:05
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XyrlocShammypants posted:Meanwhile in the land of wishes, dreams and unicorns.. ..Hillary Clinton is president and incrementalism works.
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Jan 30, 2017 21:31
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The Kingfish posted:The left needs to take over the DNC from the ground up and turn it into a genuine ideological party. Lol like that'll happen. If there are any gains at all in 2018 everyone is going to just kick back and believe they're coasting to a utopian victory in 2020.
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Jan 30, 2017 21:48
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FAUXTON posted:Lol like that'll happen. If there are any gains at all in 2018 everyone is going to just kick back and believe they're coasting to a utopian victory in 2020. He was talking about the left getting into power and not a Clintonista resurgence.
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Jan 30, 2017 21:59
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FAUXTON posted:Lol like that'll happen. If there are any gains at all in 2018 everyone is going to just kick back and believe they're coasting to a utopian victory in 2020. Don't get me wrong they're all centrist weasels with no spine, but it's likely that the popular response so far to Trump's Presidency is a bit more than they expected. When this many people participate they forms connections that, with enough time and enough people, result in an actual movement. Point being, if some of the centrists in the party are already cosplaying as center-leftists, then it will be easier to get them to go along with an actual move to the left, assuming we don't primary them first. The Democratic party will shift to the left because of this. That was in the cards before Nov 8, in fact. The questions are how much, how soon, will it be enough, and how much will the party cripple itself in the process. So far the Democratic establishment does not seem quite as willing to torch their own party to keep it right-of-center as I thought, so that's nice. Let's see how the DNC chair election goes, and then I think we can call it.
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Jan 30, 2017 22:10
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Cerebral Bore posted:He was talking about the left getting into power and not a Clintonista resurgence. So that's what happened between 2006 and 2010? Kilroy posted:Meh, I don't know. Schumer is at least acting like he perceives a threat from the left. Booker did a thing too, apparently. Surprisingly Warren seems to be mostly talk, so far anyway unless I've missed something. They're centrist weasels with enough flexibility to squirm leftward to keep their power and it's incumbent on the left to push them and hold them leftward. That definitely means running primary opponents against long-term politicians and treating them as hostile when necessary. Bernie wasn't exactly threadbare but he made a hell of a splash out of essentially nowhere with comparatively little. You don't need billionaire donors to rattle the establishment and hell it's probably better that they don't get involved. I think you're right about them cosplaying as center-left but it's only skin deep and temporary, they need to be terrified of the consequences of stepping out of line. I've seen this kind of thing happen before and it isn't like I'm exceedingly old. Apathy is a cancer and we're all susceptible. The moment you take your heel off their windpipe is the moment they'll come right back up to take you down again. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jan 30, 2017 |
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Jan 30, 2017 22:39
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The Kingfish posted:..Hillary Clinton is president and incrementalism works.
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Jan 30, 2017 23:49
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U.T. Raptor posted:No, that's a different mythical land, the one where we're an actual democracy. she was well aware of the rules of the game she was playing its her fault she didn't campaign in the right places like didn't even visit them there's no travesty of justice in the outcome. just piss poor campaign management
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Jan 31, 2017 01:06
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Ideological purity and majoritarianism don't tend to work out together.
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Jan 31, 2017 01:18
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Trabisnikof posted:Ideological purity and majoritarianism don't tend to work out together. Counterpoint: The GOP controls all three branches of government.
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Jan 31, 2017 01:24
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Trabisnikof posted:Ideological purity and majoritarianism don't tend to work out together. readingatwork posted:My local senator Diane Feinstein is dead to me: cheese fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 01:36
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cheese posted:Wait, THIS is what made Feinstein dead to you? She has been a worthless poo poo bag for years. If she runs in 2018 I'm going to devote a lot of my life to campaigning for whoever tries to primary her from the further left. Yeah anyone who has ever had any beef with the expansion of the state surveillance apparatus should be well into their second decade of hatred for feinstein.
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Jan 31, 2017 01:40
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Shbobdb posted:Counterpoint: The GOP controls all three branches of government. I think if you put Trump, Ryan, McConnell and 3 random Trump voter in a room you'd get 8 different ideologies.
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Jan 31, 2017 01:43
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Has Conway been called on that dumbass "Get used to more shocks" tweet yet?
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Jan 31, 2017 01:46
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