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We will be approaching - most likely within the life span of the majority of the members of these forums, a post-work society. A society in which the vast majority of job tasks are replaced by Robots and Automation. Post-Work society poses a existential threat to Capitalism. And that threat has yet to be satisfactorily addressed by anyone. The biggest proposed policy to deal with this potential situation at this point in time is Universal Basic Income; a policy that would involve the government distributing a basic income to every adult every single year. There are multiple proposals on how this works policy wise; where the money comes from, or whether or not traditional welfare such as medicaid, SNAP, and other assistance programs are continued or not alongside it. The main discussion I would like to bring to the forefront are more philosophical in nature. They are as follows. Can the majority of mankind truly find happiness and meaning in their lives without some kind of job or task to perform? Would a post-work society built around universal income create opportunities for people to find jobs or tasks to perform? Would a post-work society built around universal income be healthier mentally and happier than a post-work society built around more directly simulated capitalism? Would boredom and the amount of free-time people have on hand in these societies lead to crises involving crime or other undesirable activities? A lot of these questions ultimately comes down to a philosophical question of whether or not all crime originates from lack of money or whether or not humans are naturally "good." I personally believe that human beings are greedy above all else and put their personal desires before the wellbeing of others - and as such I can not see a Post-Work society built around Universal Basic Income working without some kind of simulation of capitalism built in or at the very least strong government programs that would be designed to discourage anti-social behavior and promote healthy interaction between human beings.
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Jun 24, 2017 06:56
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Yes, yes, yes, no.
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Jun 24, 2017 08:15
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Would boredom and the amount of free-time people have on hand in these societies lead to crises involving crime or other undesirable activities? quote:A lot of these questions ultimately comes down to a philosophical question of whether or not all crime originates from lack of money or whether or not humans are naturally "good." I personally believe that human beings are greedy above all else and put their personal desires before the wellbeing of others - and as such I can not see a Post-Work society built around Universal Basic Income working without some kind of simulation of capitalism built in or at the very least strong government programs that would be designed to discourage anti-social behavior and promote healthy interaction between human beings. e: \/² It was a joke. lllllllllllllllllll fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 09:02
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Trust me, if I don't have to go into a job every day to pay rent and keep health insurance I'll find something interesting and productive to do. The category of private sector jobs overlaps very loosely with "meaningful things to do." On those occasions when I have been "fortunate" enough not to work for extended periods, it has allowed me space to reconsider my work habits and address those areas where I was weak. Because, you know, nothing to lose anymore. That said, get a job ya hippie. 
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Jun 24, 2017 09:07
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lllllllllllllllllll posted:Most likely. Encourage people to find work, punish lazy people by withholding social/health services/financial resources from them. Harsh, but fair. Being jobless is not supposed to be a desirable state of being but shameful and desolate. If you're unhappy try harder. you're a psychopath and desperately need help before you multilate some animals
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Jun 24, 2017 10:27
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Chard posted:Yes, yes, yes, no. Got it in one!
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Jun 24, 2017 10:32
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I can't take anyone seriously who says, "if I had my basic needs addressed, I would sit around and do literally nothing to improve my circumstances." That's the sort of thing a mentally ill person would say.
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Jun 24, 2017 15:55
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I'm sure a very significant fraction of people would just play video games all drat day if they didn't have to do anything else. More power to them. In a post-scarcity society there should be no inherent moral stigma to inactivity.
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Jun 24, 2017 16:00
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PT6A posted:I can't take anyone seriously who says, "if I had my basic needs addressed, I would sit around and do literally nothing to improve my circumstances." That's the sort of thing a mentally ill person would say. I mean I might do that but what is life for if not being content however you are best contented?
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Jun 24, 2017 16:04
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Isn't the OP a MIGF re-reg?
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Jun 24, 2017 16:07
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Also, everyone's different and you can't claim that just because something doesn't work for you, it wouldn't work for anyone.
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Jun 24, 2017 16:08
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm sure a very significant fraction of people would just play video games all drat day if they didn't have to do anything else. Yeah and some people might sit around and drink vodka or shoot heroin all day. That doesn't mean it's the choice of a healthy mind. People should still be allowed to do it, though. I'm just saying I think it would be the choice of a relatively insignificant minority, compared to people who end up doing something at least marginally productive with their time.
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Jun 24, 2017 16:23
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PT6A posted:I can't take anyone seriously who says, "if I had my basic needs addressed, I would sit around and do literally nothing to improve my circumstances." That's the sort of thing a mentally ill person would say.
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Jun 24, 2017 17:21
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I think the lack of productive labor is probably less of an issue health-wise, even mentally, than lack of physical movement. Like you spent almost all day almost every day playing video games but still spent an hour each day hiking around a park, you'd probably be mostly fine.
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Jun 24, 2017 17:29
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Cicero posted:I think the lack of productive labor is probably less of an issue health-wise, even mentally, than lack of physical movement. Like you spent almost all day almost every day playing video games but still spent an hour each day hiking around a park, you'd probably be mostly fine. There are studies on this and .. . Not quite. You need something like eight hours a week minimum and even just sitting vs standing over the course of a day makes a big health difference.
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Jun 24, 2017 17:44
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I don't know whats funnier, the op thinking a post-scarcity society is imminent in our lifetimes or the fact that their main concern seems to be how we can philosophically preserve the spirit of capitalism after its been made completely redundant It's like an Anglican school master worrying that there won't be any children to strap once he gets to Heaven
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Jun 24, 2017 17:56
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They've done experiments with mincome and UBI, and every time it turns out people keep working. Heck, it encourages them to look for work more than unemployment does, since unlike unemployment benefits, UBI doesn't go away if you actually get a job. You end up with more money, not less, so it actually still incentivizes work. People still find things to do and ways to contribute to their community; the average response to it isn't to immediately vegetate forever, and while some people might, if we actually hit the point where UBI has not only happened but is pretty much necessary due to automation and stuff, some people doing so isn't going to be a major problem anyway. I know that actually having money now wouldn't stop me from looking for work or going back to school. It'd be quite helpful, really, since there are some things I'd like to do but a lack of resources, like, you know, money, kind of makes them difficult. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 20:12
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm sure a very significant fraction of people would just play video games all drat day if they didn't have to do anything else. Exactly so. The Protestant work ethic roots of a decent amount of American thought are a burden, not a gift.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:20
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here is what I do not get about UBI (though i'm highly in favor of the general direction): If you give americans $1000/month of very reliable income, they're just going to bid up every house by 200k (you could easily argue more).
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Jun 24, 2017 20:54
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StabbinHobo posted:here is what I do not get about UBI (though i'm highly in favor of the general direction): your forgetting propety tax home ownersbassociation fees and insurance to boot. $500 of UBI for myself and my SO would give us enoigh to have a 450,000 house 2 teslas and a boat. UBI is very beneficial becausebpf the scalability. even $200 of ubi per persin makes a huge difference. 200 ubi pr person comesbout to 60b a year.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:58
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StabbinHobo posted:here is what I do not get about UBI (though i'm highly in favor of the general direction): Ah yes, people only need to pay mortgages, they don't need food or any of those other pesky things like utilities or goods or whatnot.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:59
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Pollyanna posted:Isn't the OP a MIGF re-reg? I thought they were that one goon who got banned in the Trump thread. The one who wasn't Avs
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Jun 24, 2017 21:03
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Autism Sneaks posted:I thought they were that one goon who got banned in the Trump thread. The one who wasn't Avs mattdizzl3?
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Jun 24, 2017 21:05
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I like how I can't distinguish between the two disingenuous rear end in a top hat replies because they have thes same (accurate) avatar.
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Jun 24, 2017 21:30
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PT6A posted:Yeah and some people might sit around and drink vodka or shoot heroin all day. That doesn't mean it's the choice of a healthy mind. Most studies back up the idea that people will continue to be productive, but we'd probably have to shift our idea of what that means. Is someone who goes back to school for the second or third time being productive? I'd argue that they absolutely are, but I have a feeling that cases like that would almost end up being more of a sticking point than people who just sit around on a couch all day. A hypothetical society with a UBI that's sufficient to live off of would also require a shift in culture to accept that productivity isn't necessarily the amount of value you create for an employer. That said, and maybe to address your point a little more directly, I don't think it's really right to say that someone would only choose to be idle if they're mentally ill. Lots of low end jobs are absolute poo poo to work and provide no fulfillment beyond a (too small by a mile) paycheck. It's totally reasonable to choose idleness over that kind of work if you're actually given the option. I suspect a lot of people might start treating things like retail work as extremely part time, temporary gigs that you basically do to save up for something specific before bugging out.
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Jun 24, 2017 21:36
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We're getting robot bullets probably
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Jun 24, 2017 21:37
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StabbinHobo posted:I like how I can't distinguish between the two disingenuous rear end in a top hat replies because they have thes same (accurate) avatar. Care to actually refute anything or do you just want to make a cheap dig?
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Jun 24, 2017 21:38
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Roland Jones posted:They've done experiments with mincome and UBI, and every time it turns out people keep working. Cicero fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 23:08
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Cicero posted:Yeah but you can hardly pretend a limited duration experiment or trial is the same psychologically as a program intended to indefinitely. If it's just an experiment, you know you'll eventually really need the work. And I imagine the change will be even more drastic for whichever generation is the first to grow up with UBI already in-place. Ah, a praxeologist.
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Jun 24, 2017 23:13
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I'm mostly pro-UBI, I just think experiments around it have limited usefulness. It would obviously be a monumental societal change to have a nationwide, indefinite UBI. Is it really controversial to suggest that people's reactions and planning will be different knowing they get a free check for a few years vs knowing they get a free check forever?
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Jun 24, 2017 23:19
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Cicero posted:I'm mostly pro-UBI, I just think experiments around it have limited usefulness. It would obviously be a monumental societal change to have a nationwide, indefinite UBI. Is it really controversial to suggest that people's reactions and planning will be different knowing they get a free check for a few years vs knowing they get a free check forever? It really depends on the size of the check. It's hard for me to see how any remotely feasible UBI would fundamentally alter society, other than offering people a bit more freedom and financial stability. Even $1000/mo - which is probably at the extreme far end of what will ever be possible - isn't going to be enough for most people to quit their jobs and live a life of carefree leisure. Not even close.
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Jun 24, 2017 23:31
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On mobile right now so cant do it myself, but how come that study of Iran's nation wide UBI hasnt been linked yet? In it they find that employment didnt meanibgfully change, and iirc explicitly calls out people whi say UBI will lead to people quiting their jobs to show some evidence.
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Jun 24, 2017 23:38
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Communist Zombie posted:On mobile right now so cant do it myself, but how come that study of Iran's nation wide UBI hasnt been linked yet? In it they find that employment didnt meanibgfully change, and iirc explicitly calls out people whi say UBI will lead to people quiting their jobs to show some evidence.
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Jun 24, 2017 23:56
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PT6A posted:I can't take anyone seriously who says, "if I had my basic needs addressed, I would sit around and do literally nothing to improve my circumstances." That's the sort of thing a mentally ill person would say. How do you explain the children of the rich then?
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Jun 25, 2017 00:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There are studies on this and .. . Not quite. You need something like eight hours a week minimum and even just sitting vs standing over the course of a day makes a big health difference. Haven't studies on largely sedentary desk jobs resulted in very similar effects? Just having a job does not fix this.
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Jun 25, 2017 00:28
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:How do you explain the children of the rich then? Well the children of the rich can just pay two dozen other people to work instead of them, and due to marginal utility there exists no job (other than overpaid do-nothing positions) that is going to increase their comfort meaningfully over just being a lazy capitalist with a wealth manager when taking into account even a modest effort of actually doing poo poo. But then again I don't think UBI is supposed to be a million per year per person, so why should we care about the idle rich 
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Jun 25, 2017 00:29
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Pollyanna posted:Isn't the OP a MIGF re-reg? he's ISeeCuckedPeople
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Jun 25, 2017 01:16
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I've seen several people say ISeeCuckedPeople was MIGF though.
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Jun 25, 2017 01:39
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Cicero posted:I'm mostly pro-UBI, I just think experiments around it have limited usefulness. It would obviously be a monumental societal change to have a nationwide, indefinite UBI. Is it really controversial to suggest that people's reactions and planning will be different knowing they get a free check for a few years vs knowing they get a free check forever? No but generally we make fun of people who say "well yes all the evidence we have suggests things will work one way but my gut tells me it will work a different way so who can really know?"
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Jun 25, 2017 02:30
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R. Guyovich posted:he's ISeeCuckedPeople
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Jun 25, 2017 02:39
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