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Death to America and death to capitalism
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Dec 10, 2017 15:27
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 06:24 |
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Ground floor on the latest GBS politics thread 
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Dec 10, 2017 15:29
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yeah I eat rear end posted:There are ways to make things better that aren't "scrap everything that has made the USA the country it is today and try a form of government that has never worked (in its pure form) and that we have historically fought to prevent spreading". Yeah scraping slavery was a real bad idea.
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Dec 10, 2017 15:29
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NNick posted:Yeah scraping slavery was a real bad idea. We have a massive prison population to do our slave labor for us now we just don't call it slavery
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Dec 10, 2017 15:31
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A failure state for communism is a success state for capitalism.
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Dec 10, 2017 15:42
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NNick posted:Yeah scraping slavery was a real bad idea.  I'm talking about forms of government. Slavery is/was obviously wrong but abolishing it wasn't equivalent to transforming into a communist nation. If you're going to try and make an argument at least try to be genuine about it.
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Dec 10, 2017 15:42
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yeah I eat rear end posted:I never said it was a perfect system but there's a reason the soviet union collapsed and the US is still standing (even if it's in a bit of a slump lately). you (a mindless product of our warped society): everyone sucks. dog eat dog. cream will always rise to the top. me (woke): actually everyone is cool. god bless. 🌈🤗🌈
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Dec 10, 2017 15:43
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fridge corn posted:you (a mindless product of our warped society): everyone sucks. dog eat dog. cream will always rise to the top. just lol if you still have faith in the goodness of humanity
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Dec 10, 2017 15:45
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yeah I eat rear end posted:just lol if you still have faith in the goodness of humanity how can selfishness be seen as a negative trait if it were the natural order of human social interaction? the very idea of it being undesirable is proof enough of our natural inclination toward altruism
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Dec 10, 2017 15:52
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fridge corn posted:how can selfishness be seen as a negative trait Got bad news for you
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Dec 10, 2017 15:56
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yeah I eat rear end posted:China is just what communism in the real world outside of textbooks is. If the US decided to switch to communism we'd eventually be just like them, if not immediately. Communism is just an easier sell to poor people to get them to accept an authoritarian government. actually the republican party is an easier sell to poor people to get them to accept an authoritarian government
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Dec 10, 2017 15:57
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It's Sunday. Stop being miserable and have some toast
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Dec 10, 2017 15:59
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yeah I eat rear end posted:
Slavery is the foundation of the American government. and guess what, plenty of people still think it is ‘natural’ arrangement. Your have no grasp of history and ‘human nature’.
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Dec 10, 2017 16:04
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We are all slaves to capitalism
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Dec 10, 2017 16:06
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NNick posted:Slavery is the foundation of the American government. You're just saying what I already said about slavery. I know a lot of people would gladly have slavery back and many people around the world still practice it in some form. This is why I am arguing that humans are not inherently good and while there are some truly good altruistic people, most will always choose the course of action that benefits themselves (and/or their loved ones') over others. Even most people like yourself who probably consider themselves "woke" wouldn't sacrifice much to defend your beliefs, you are just privileged enough to be able to say things like "death to america" without facing any true major hardships and as soon as you started to your tune would probably change.
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Dec 10, 2017 16:19
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I'd like to say that Bernie-style mild socialism (which I've heard is closer to FDR-era "New Deal" politics) would stick if the stars aligned and Bernie won next term, but I don't believe it will. We'll have 4-8 years of Good Feels, everything will start turning around and legislation and regulation will be put in place to make things better but then some centrist Republican or Neo-Liberal will once again get elected and tear everything down and things will start sliding into poo poo again. I really don't think we'll ever have even lowkey socialism in this country, at least not for long.
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Dec 10, 2017 16:28
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The problem is westerners calling countries communist on the basis of their leaders being (actually or nominally) communists. I mean not even the own propaganda of any of these ”real-socialist” countries called them communist. Since the economic content of these countries never mattered, it’s not surprising that one would miss the economic (but not political) convergence toward western-style capitalism that started in the 60’s and 70’s. I would say as a reaction to isolated authoritarian party states’ inherent inability to make a definitive break with capitalism in the first place (leaving more dynamic and/or exploitative capitalism as the best strategy), but that’s beside the point.
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Dec 10, 2017 16:30
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King Vidiot posted:I'd like to say that Bernie-style mild socialism (which I've heard is closer to FDR-era "New Deal" politics) would stick if the stars aligned and Bernie won next term, but I don't believe it will. We'll have 4-8 years of Good Feels, everything will start turning around and legislation and regulation will be put in place to make things better but then some centrist Republican or Neo-Liberal will once again get elected and tear everything down and things will start sliding into poo poo again. If you tell an American something is beneficial to the group rather than the self they will be more reluctant to accept it https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-01/science-confirms-obvious-americans-are-selfish
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Dec 10, 2017 16:37
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uncop posted:The problem is westerners calling countries communist on the basis of their leaders being (actually or nominally) communists. I mean not even the own propaganda of any of these ”real-socialist” countries called them communist. Since the economic content of these countries never mattered, it’s not surprising that one would miss the economic (but not political) convergence toward western-style capitalism that started in the 60’s and 70’s. I would say as a reaction to isolated authoritarian party states’ inherent inability to make a definitive break with capitalism in the first place (leaving more dynamic and/or exploitative capitalism as the best strategy), but that’s beside the point. They largely couldn't for the fundamental reason of trade.
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Dec 10, 2017 16:50
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yeah I eat rear end posted:You're just saying what I already said about slavery. I know a lot of people would gladly have slavery back and many people around the world still practice it in some form. This is why I am arguing that humans are not inherently good and while there are some truly good altruistic people, most will always choose the course of action that benefits themselves (and/or their loved ones') over others. Even most people like yourself who probably consider themselves "woke" wouldn't sacrifice much to defend your beliefs, you are just privileged enough to be able to say things like "death to america" without facing any true major hardships and as soon as you started to your tune would probably change. The second half of your rant is a bunch of baseless assumptions which is very informative of you inability to reason. There are millions of people working to understand Homo Sapiens. You should reduce the species down to trite statements about good and evil.
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Dec 10, 2017 16:52
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NNick posted:The second half of your rant is a bunch of baseless assumptions which is very informative of you inability to reason. I'm not the one making false equivalences and insulting the person I'm talking to instead of making a relevant point.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:01
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communism sucks
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Dec 10, 2017 17:03
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yeah I eat rear end posted:I'm not the one making false equivalences and insulting the person I'm talking to instead of making a relevant point. Lol you are typing words but you don’t know what they mean. I’d like to hear more about your theories on human nature 
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Dec 10, 2017 17:11
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If there's one thing anthropology, paleontology and genetics teaches us it's that people have always been deeply selfish and never cared about cooperating. Just look at species in nature that are not at all similar to us, they compete against each other fiercely.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:15
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NNick posted:Lol you are typing words but you don’t know what they mean. me: scrapping our form of government and becoming communists would be bad you: so you're saying scrapping slavery was a bad thing?
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Dec 10, 2017 17:15
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Grevling posted:If there's one thing anthropology, paleontology and genetics teaches us it's that people have always been deeply selfish and never cared about cooperating. Just look at species in nature that are not at all similar to us, they compete against each other fiercely. orcas work together to throw seals around with their fins
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Dec 10, 2017 17:17
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Hector Beerlioz posted:orcas work together to throw seals around with their fins Those seals should unite to battle orcish tyranny.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:19
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IIRC the CCP rationalizes this sort of capitalism as a temporary means to global dominance where they will obviously institute communism worldwide, eschewing the revolution via arms for a revolution via money instead. Just lol if you call yourself a communist and don't fall in line behind Socialism with Chinese characteristics.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:27
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yeah I eat rear end posted:me: scrapping our form of government and becoming communists would be bad I know sarcasm is hard. Also you left out human nature in your summary; it seems pretty crucial to your thesis.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:31
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Ardennes posted:They largely couldn't for the fundamental reason of trade. I would say that the real pressing reason was a military one, the commie bloc put together was fairly self-sufficient and the true arena of economic competition with the west was in military capacity. A big military requires a big economy, which required rapid industrialization through intensified exploitation, which required a political authority opposed to the workers rather than by and for them, invalidating any basis for a self-sustaining movement away from capitalist relations. And like every single one of those regimes was born out of some international military conflict.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:32
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Although I guess socialism is now often used to mean Bernie Sanders style of social democracy so if you call yourself a socialist it's different, but don't be surprised if people still take you for communists lol. Ultimately the economy (not in just the capitalistic sense) is a mess either way and virtually uncomputable and lol if you really think a total planned economy is feasible in any way, or that a fully laissez faire market will not result in constant breakdowns every other day.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:33
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Robert Red Rocket posted:IIRC the CCP rationalizes this sort of capitalism as a temporary means to global dominance where they will obviously institute communism worldwide, eschewing the revolution via arms for a revolution via money instead. Yeah, I hear occasionally the whole "state capitalism gives way to communism" argument. I think they should append it to say "...as long as the people who gain all the power are willing to lay it down lol".
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Dec 10, 2017 17:34
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NNick posted:I know sarcasm is hard. please stop and let someone with a bigger brain argue these points fe: that's not me
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Dec 10, 2017 17:34
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NNick posted:I know sarcasm is hard. I already gave my views on it. Some humans choose to be good, most people give in to their selfish side is the summary. Evidence: the current state of the world and most of the history of human civilization. People disguise their selfishness in a lot of ways - some people see through it, others like you buy into the act and fool themselves into thinking they too are Good and Pure.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:35
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Is this where you say that if you do good and put other people first, that you're just doing it because it makes you feel good and that that's ultimately selfish too? Because that argument is dumb and you're dumb if you think that hth
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Dec 10, 2017 17:39
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phasmid posted:Yeah, I hear occasionally the whole "state capitalism gives way to communism" argument. I think they should append it to say "...as long as the people who gain all the power are willing to lay it down lol". Well they sure have no qualms seizing private assets from powerful people (that are not Xi Jinping) under the name of state capitalism/Chinese socialism. Probably will take a lovely coup d'etat for Xi to release his hold on power he's been hoarding lately, and I'm sure the resulting communist state run by a junta will be functional.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:40
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China hasn't been communist since Mao died and Deng Xiaoping basically said "well now that he's gone I can say without fear of being killed for it that his ideas were bad and we're gonna try capitalism now, but stay 'Communist'. Special Economic Zones baby! Also, jail Mao's widow." And then money happened.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:42
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It's meaningless to talk about good or bad people, it's more useful to ask if humans are cooperative or if they compete. We do both, but it's necessarily as a group and at the expense of some other group. So we need to start thinking of everybody as part of our group.
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Dec 10, 2017 17:44
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uncop posted:I would say that the real pressing reason was a military one, the commie bloc put together was fairly self-sufficient and the true arena of economic competition with the west was in military capacity. A big military requires a big economy, which required rapid industrialization through intensified exploitation, which required a political authority opposed to the workers rather than by and for them, invalidating any basis for a self-sustaining movement away from capitalist relations. And like every single one of those regimes was born out of some international military conflict. During the 1920s/1930s, the Soviet Union was absolutely not self-sufficient and ran a giant trade deficit. One reason workers were pushed so hard was to try to basically produce exports to pay for all the imports the country needed. There was no way for the Soviets to isolate themselves fully from the rest of the world, especially since they needed basic machinery they couldn't build themselves (admittedly so would have a capitalist Russia). The only things the Soviets could re-ably export during most of this period was grain, eggs, and oil. (Also, there really was no sane choice but to produce a large military from the 1930s through the Cold War.)
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Dec 10, 2017 17:45
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 06:24 |
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King Vidiot posted:Is this where you say that if you do good and put other people first, that you're just doing it because it makes you feel good and that that's ultimately selfish too? is this where you keep making up arguments for other people to shoot down?
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Dec 10, 2017 17:47
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