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Shoeless posted:Oh cool, I'm glad to see you picking this up again. I still remember your previous one, and I look forwards to getting to see more ASL. If you really need more help with those... jesus, those monster campaign maps I can try to learn the game and help out. Appreciated  . At worst, its not like I can't organize some sort of newbie day.On top of that, the scenario list includes Starter Kit scenarios. The Starter Kits (3, 2 Expansions, and 1 Bonus Pack) do away with some of the more complex rules (iirc Concealment is not a thing) and streamlines the process a little for the sake of easing players into the ruleset. Those will be a good starting point for comparison between "Full" ASL and the Starter Kit ASL.
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Jan 3, 2021 01:09
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Jobbo_Fett posted:I don't believe so. It might be factored into the 6-2-8's higher morale, but that seems unlikely. And so my dream of a Warhammer 40K conversion dies. Jobbo_Fett posted:[I have never played this one so I don't know how fun it is] Would you mind telling what some of your favorite scenarios are and what makes them good and fun? Conversely what makes for a bad scenario in your estimation?
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Jan 3, 2021 01:27
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White Coke posted:Would you mind telling what some of your favorite scenarios are and what makes them good and fun? Conversely what makes for a bad scenario in your estimation? This is tough because I've only played a small fraction of the available scenarios out there. I had a really bad 3 times playing an Operation Merkur scenario "Morning's Peril" where the German player starts offboard and arrives by glider, into the open arms of multiple AA guns and plenty of defending infantry. I'm sure we didn't play it correctly, but his guns always rolled well, and I'd typically see half my forces deleted before the end of my first turn. Felt like an exercise in futility, but could just have a set of hot dice  As for favourites, I've been a sucker for the campaign games. I had a fun scenario, CtR-8 A Deadly Tide, where as the Americans you're stuck in foxholes while Japanese troops come running out of the ocean, and others coming from the opposite direction, with DC Heroes throwing themselves at you to blow you up. Another fun one is FrF 52 Dying For Danzig, a German vs Russian action in 1945, Russians have a lot of Flamethrowers (all of mine promptly blew up or broke down) and you're trying to perform one big encirclement of the Germans. Edit: As for what makes a bad scenario, I think anything where you have to rely on really good (or bad) dice to get you the V. There are some scenarios that come to mind that require you to place Smoke via Artillery, and its possible to not get it because of dice. From those that have played it, they argue that, if the smoke SHOULD come in on the first turn, then it should be automatic, as some feel too skewed towards the defender on those occasions. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jan 3, 2021 |
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Jan 3, 2021 02:03
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Jobbo_Fett posted:DC Heroes throwing themselves at you to blow you up. Oh cool, can I play as the Flash or Superman counter for that one? :V On a more serious note, how do you see this thread going in terms of games played? Like, you've got this relatively small, uncomplicated scenario to start with but what comes next? Will you do a series of scenarios, working in mroe and more complex terrain, unit types and rules, and eventually do a full campaign, or just jump around to whichever scenarios catch your fancy, or something else?
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Jan 3, 2021 03:05
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Shoeless posted:Oh cool, can I play as the Flash or Superman counter for that one? :V Literally gonna go in chronological order from 1908 to 1978 or whatever it is
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Jan 3, 2021 03:27
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Literally gonna go in chronological order from 1908 to 1978 or whatever it is Follow up question, is there an ASL scenario for the Battle of Berlin that includes the two Mark V Males the Germans reactivated?
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Jan 3, 2021 03:35
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Shoeless posted:Follow up question, is there an ASL scenario for the Battle of Berlin that includes the two Mark V Males the Germans reactivated? Hmmmm... If it doesn't its because nobody created the counters for them.
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Jan 3, 2021 03:38
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I don't think there's been any conclusive evidence they actually got used in the battle of Berlin, but it must have been a poo poo job if so!
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Jan 3, 2021 11:04
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Tias posted:I don't think there's been any conclusive evidence they actually got used in the battle of Berlin, but it must have been a poo poo job if so! On the flipside there is a scenario or 3 about hero KV-1s or KV-2s stopping German divisions dyring Barbarossa.
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Jan 3, 2021 15:14
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Pretty sure the luftwaffe panzer division had an IS-2 or three, nicknamed 'Görings Stalins', because of course they were.
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Jan 3, 2021 15:56
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Tias posted:Pretty sure the luftwaffe panzer division had an IS-2 or three, nicknamed 'Görings Stalins', because of course they were. According to the only scenario that features them, that I can find, it was 2 and a pretty hasty thing. So yeah that's included eventually.
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Jan 3, 2021 16:13
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FT-116: Meet The Madsens (PART 2) As the Chinese squads make their slow advance towards my lines, the Mongolian units make a slow, calculated retreat towards the buildings on Board 8. The goal, as always, is to delay, delay, delay. Once my cavalry reinforcements come in, I may consider some offensive action, but for now its the slow and steady route. Turn 2 - Mongolian  Current state of the board Shooting anything with my concealed units would only serve to drop their concealment, consequently exposing them to lots of potential firepower, so I opt to go straight into my Movement Phase. Numerous stacks use assault movement to stay in cover and remain concealed. On the left flank, with a tough decision between staying in the woods of 44O8, next to the Chinese 3-3-7, or moving back towards my lines and braving any incoming fire. The Partisans almost make it to friendly ground before LMG fire forces them to ground. Now broken, I'll have to hope they survive until the Rout Phase.  The only other notable actions are some shots by the Chinese that strike at ? stacks in 44M9 and 44B7. Each strong enough to force them to reveal, showing off that they were, in fact, dummy units. These did their jobs, absorbing attacks that could have been made against my real units! Turn 3 - Chinese Weather roll sees no change. No rallies are possible, and my opponent refrains from any shots, so we go straight to movement.  A juicy shot presents itself, again against a pair of squads moving as a stack. Unfortunately, my Partisans roll doubles, which causes them to Cower. The shot was 3 doubled to 6 for being adjacent, with a -1 DRM for First Fire Non-Assault Movement, and a +1 DRM for the terrain, which in this case is an Olive Grove (by Special Scenario Rule). Because I cowered, I shoot on the 4 FP column instead of the 6 I should've had. Had my men been Conscripts instead, they would have shifted down 2 columns.  Its been a busy turn for the Chinese. My opponent is moving a lot, which is good on their part, they need to get to the buildings ASAP. Clearing out buildings is always time consuming and deadly. He shoots at my lone Partisans next to the hill (Hex 44F7), but his Firepower being Halved due to it being the Advancing Fire Phase mitigates any possible damage.  The Advance Phase sees two Conscript squads rush 44F7 and a Close Combat will take place during that phase. (This is one of the few times that a unit can enter the same Location as an enemy unit.) How Close Combat Works Using the above image, the first thing you need to do is determine if anyone is ambushed. This is due to a player advancing units into a Woods hex, but this also applies to Building hexes. There are some modifiers based on unit types and current conditions (Pin, Broken, etc.) Each player rolls 1 dice and an ambush occurs if one player rolls at least 3 lower than their opponent. If I roll a 2 and my opponent a 5, I ambush them and vice-versa. Ambush is very important, as it allows the Ambushing player to attack AND resolve first. Under normal circumstances, both players roll their CC die rolls (attacker first), recalculate numbers if necessary, and then both results are applied at the same time. So, back to the image. No ambush occurs. The Chinese player has two options available to them. They can attack as a single group, or in multiple groups. They have two 3-3-6 squads versus my singular 3-3-7, and odds only use a unit's firepower for calculation (Leaders count as 1), therefore the Chinese player can attack at a 6 to 3 (Or 2 to 1) ratio or as two separate 3 to 3 (1 to 1) ratio attacks. On the other hand, my Partisans can choose to attack the entire enemy stack, for a 1 to 2 ratio, or against a singular squad as a 1 to 1 ratio attack. Close Combat is deadly, and I want to maximize the Partisan's effectiveness, so I go for a 1-1 attack. Neither of us were lucky, so the Close Combat devolves into a Melee. None of the 3 squads can do anything until the next Close Combat Phase! Turn 3 - Mongolians I roll snake eyes for the Weather Roll! This changes the wind from a North-Easterly breeze to a North-Westerly breeze! Exciting!! (Not so much here, but it can be quite the interesting development in some scenarios)  After an attempted rally, which didn't succeed, I shy away from taking any shots, if only so that I don't reveal any units. I also want to move my entire line rearwards, as pictured above. The Chinese are definitely in the area en masse, and the buildings provide better defensive ground than the olive groves I currently reside in. Of note are that I had to drop concealment for the two visible Partisan squads in the upper right near the buildings, due to LOS from the 6+1 leader and stack in 44C7. Lt. Altangerel (My 7-0 leader) in 8M2 also had to reveal himself after dashing into the building from the woods. His objective is to rally those broken Partisans. Sadly, the Melee with my Partisans ends this turn, but not without them taking out a Chinese squad in the process! Turn 4 - Chinese  Another failed rally on my part, and plenty of movement for the Chinese player. My ? stack in 44J7 is basically stuck now, not being able to retreat much of anywhere without potentially taking shots and breaking. Shots ring out against some of my concealed units nearer to the buildings, but nothing of value happens. Turn 4 - Mongolians Reinforcements arrive!    Reinforcements have to be setup offboard (unless otherwise stated) at the start of a turn. Forget it, and they aren't allowed to come in. (This is sometimes overlooked, so watch out!)  Prep Fire Phase sees a lucky shot against a large stack. This could be really good for me, because that Leader HAS to apply his +1 modifier is he passes. Meaning that if the Leader gets lucky and survives, everyone else with him get a +1 to their MC/TC. Sadly, it was only a Pin Task Check, but...  That's still two squads that will be rather ineffective if they choose to shoot back.   Not much else to shoot at or with, so the movement phase begins and cavalry gallops their way to various locations. Half of my reinforcements show up in the Chinese starting area. These will be purely for harassing attacks, and to cut off rout paths. Its important to note that routing (which I'll get a post about later) is a very important part of ASL, and preventing a unit from being able to rout eliminates it. You don't always have to shoot to kill! As for my other cavalry, they come in via the railroad tracks, dismount and enter various buildings to shore up defenses. (The CX counters on the horses are for them Galloping, allowing extra Movement Factors)  Later in the turn, the Chinese finally start shooting some more, letting my poor ? stack in J7 have it. At first the half squad pins, followed by the squad breaking on a subsequent attack.  I have to pull out the broken squad, and they can't surrender since No Quarter is in effect (Glad I killed those guys!), they have to take an interdiction roll for moving in the open ground as a broken unit in the Rout Phase, but they pass, enter the nearby woods, and back to K0. Captain Gansukh advances into their Location as I will be trying to rally them next turn. Turn 5 - Chinese  Victory Hexes have been marked, if only because the 15 CVP (Casualty Victory Points) that my opponent requires may be out of reach at this point, thus building control will now be required. Squads move up, shots go out, some finding their targets and others missing completely.  And lots of action finally becomes the norm! Chinese squads swarm up the left flank, attempting to overrun my squad in the woods in 8N0/44N10, and enter the building as well. Additionally, the right flank appears to be turning towards the middle, completely ignoring the ? stack in the far right building complex. Of note, the Chinese have 3 broken squads now, and I re-pinned the units in 44F8. It should be noted I rolled low a few times. Definitely helped on the left flank.  The solo half-squad next to the three stacks of Chinese units, in the woods adjacent to the railroad, could not survive the onslaught of fire. First they broke, then they were eliminated.   By the end of the turn, another CC takes place on the left, and a Chinese squad makes it into a building for the first time. Sadly for my opponent, I rolled well enough to ambush, declared Hand to Hand fighting (which increases the minimum roll required for a kill) and quickly dispatched the aggressors. Another 2.5 Game Turns remain, and while the Chinese are certainly far from their objectives, all is not necessarily lost. The dice gods can be tricky masters to deal with. To Be Continued...
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Jan 3, 2021 18:59
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I once tried to learn that game a few years ago. But I still had to stare at the close combat pic for a bit before remembering that it isn't actually happening all the way between hex 6Ǝ and hex 4Ⅎ.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:36
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VictualSquid posted:I once tried to learn that game a few years ago. But I still had to stare at the close combat pic for a bit before remembering that it isn't actually happening all the way between hex 6Ǝ and hex 4Ⅎ. Yeah... its particularly annoying because the VASSAL module doesnt allow you to rotate bpards, so youre always stuck viewing the maps from a specific direction.
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Jan 3, 2021 22:50
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What does the berserk rule do? I was reading about the different nationalities and the Chinese have Dare Death squads and from what I could find it allows them to make some of their units berserk.
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Jan 4, 2021 09:09
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White Coke posted:What does the berserk rule do? I was reading about the different nationalities and the Chinese have Dare Death squads and from what I could find it allows them to make some of their units berserk. So there's three main stages of existence for a Berserk unit. Pre-Movement Phase Berserk status  You're thinking about running. You can't stop thinking about running up to the first imperial bastard you find. You fiddle with your gun so much you forget to shoot during the Prep Fire Phase (You're not allowed to as a Berserk unit). Movement Phase Berserk Status  You're a heat-seeking missile that targets the closest enemy and you just gun it towards them. Not only are you so impulsive that you have to move before anyone else (barring late-activation Berserk), but you don't care what it takes to get to your target.  You're so committed to being a human cheekseeking missile that you don't even care that you're in the same Location as an enemy unit. In fact, that's your ONLY goal. Post Movement Phase Berserk Status  You get to attack in the Advance Fire Phase, provided you survived everything thrown at you. Since you're in the same hex as an opponent, you fire at TRIPLE POINT BLANK firepower. Any and all survivors are now in Close Combat. Some notes about Berserk Any unit that becomes Berserk has their Morale raised to 10. This is the highest any morale can be. A Berserk unit has 8 Movement Factors, must target the NEAREST enemy in Hexes (Not MF), and must move before all other units. Any infantry unit can become Berserk providing it triggers a Heat of Battle result and subsequently die roll that makes it go Berserk. A unit loses berserk status if they successfully eliminate all Known enemy unit in their Location, using TPBF (or a Flamethrower), or as part of Close Combat, or if at the end of their Charge there is no Known Enemy Unit in their LOS. A broken unit that goes Berserk automatically rallies. A leader that becomes Berserk can lead to a cascading effect where units stacked with that Leader also go Berserk. While the DEFENDER, Berserk units act like normal infantry. There are a few exceptions and such, as is always the case in ASL, but that's the meat and potatoes of it. A possible sequence of events  It is the Russian side's Movement Phase. The Germans have a squad in S6 and T4. The Russians have a squad in V5.  The Russian squad moves into U5 for 1 MF, non-assault movement. The German 5-4-8 fires and breaks AND ELRs the Russian 1st Line squad. They are now conscripts.  5 Morale is a juicy target, as its hard to roll less than that to save them. The conscripts in T4 also shoot (because we're still at "Russians moved a hex" despite them having broken). The 4-3-6 squad shoots, forcing the Russians to roll... Heat of Battle (*die rolling noises) and they go Berserk! The Berserk Russian Conscripts now have 8MF (-1 for having moved from V5 to U5) and must continue moving.  The Russians move into T4, which forces the German 4-3-6 Conscripts to use Final Protective Fire. Essentially its a must-use ability that symbolizes a unit desperately trying to eliminate a unit that has enter its Location. Its reasonably powerful, employing TPBF.  Did I mention that it also acts as a Mandatory Morale Check against the firer as well? These German conscripts rolled him, and they are now broken, with the Russian Berserkers set for an easy kill in the AFPh or in CC.
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Jan 4, 2021 13:28
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Cool. So the Chinese can make units intentionally go berserk?
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Jan 4, 2021 22:06
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White Coke posted:How does the game model Italians needing extra water for pasta? Or to be more serious, are there special rules to representing things like doctrine that can't just be expressed by different equipment, or numerical values like morale? Jobbo has answered this in part, but there are dozens of little things that affect how a side fights. Ones outside what you can see on a Squad counter that relate to more doctrinal things include the availability number for off-board artillery, the average number of leaders per squad, the probability that a leader will be higher quality, the probability of good and bad results on the Heat of Battle roll, the the availability of certain types of support weapons, sniper availability, vehicle engine quality, Experience Level Rating modifiers, and a number of special rules exceptions. An abridgedlist of national qualities include: Americans: The US Army is characterized by troops with high firepower and range but low unbroken morale. This makes them good at laying down fire but awkward at taking it. When broken, the typically rally like elite units, making them quick to rejoin the fight. They’re also well-equipped with infantry smoke and white phosphorous grenades, support weapons and vehicles, as well as having plentiful and accurate off-board artillery. The USMC have overall high morale, range, and firepower, making them some of the toughest units in the game. British: The British and Commonwealth armed forces are characterized by average firepower, range, and morale. On average they have more leaders than the Americans, and in Heat of Battle they have a -1, giving them more Heroes and Battle Hardened troops. They’re typically thin on MMG/HMG, reflecting the lack of organic machine guns at lower levels of organization. Finally, their discipline under fire is represented by immunity to Cowering (where doubles on the IFT roll gives a negative column shift and ends that fire group’s ability to fire for that turn) on most troops. ANZAC have Stealthy (bonuses on ambushes in close combat), Gurkhas are even nastier in close combat, and most of the non-British white commonwealth and Free French/Free Poles are Elite to represent national spirit and/or a high degree of volunteer forces. Germans The German mainline squad merely has high range, but they’re supported by excellent and typically plentiful machine guns (with HMGs and MMGs that can fire like LMGs when disassembled for transport), their 2nd-line troops fight as well as many 1st-line troops, and once the later years of the war comes around basically every squad carries around panzerfuasts and anti-tank magnetic mines. They have the best bonuses to Heat of Battle and lots of leaders. The Waffen-SS are all super-elites in line with bad 80s historiography (and will never surrender when fighting Russians), and German assault engineers have the single highest firepower rating in the game. No, I’m not bitter or anything. Russians Russians have average firepower and morale but poor range, forcing them to fight up close against the longer-ranged Germans. They have special automatniki troops armed with submachine guns in the form of 5-2-7 squads, which are brutal up close. To compensate for their lack of range they can launch the aforementioned Human Wave attacks to close gaps. They tend to have few and poor leaders, and the Heat of Battle rolls prioritize Berserk and Surrender heavily. They can use commissars up to November 1942 (which rally your troops quickly but execute half the squad if they fail!  ) and have generally decent vehicle availability once the early disasters of Barbarossa are over. Russian troops can often take advantage of night fighting and have bonuses to digging foxholes. Their machine guns are shoddy and often break on a roll of 11-12 instead of only 12. Where Germans have Panzerfausts and Americans have White Phosphorous, Russians can often but not always throw Molotov cocktails.Japanese: Poor range, average firepower and morale. However, instead of breaking when they fail morale checks, most Japanese squads will become “reduced”, making them weaker but still able to move and fight. Reduced squads break into half-squads, which do break normally. This allows Japanese troops to close distances without fear of breaking, allowing them to neutralize enemy range advantages or even get into close combat, where they’re exceptionally brutal. They can also launch Banzai Charges, which are like Human Waves but easier. They have decent leader generation numbers but poor leaders, which allows them to banzai often but generally not get many of the other advantages of leaders. Japanese troops are generally immune to surrender, and Heat of Battle rolls lean towards Berserk, for maximum close-to-the-enemy-and-fight-ness. They can generally set up much of their forces concealed or hidden, and can place caves where they want to on maps (and are the only people who can even use those caves). Any unit with a Demolition Charge equipped can try to create a Tank Hunter Hero who will grab the DC and attempt to suicide the nearest tank. They have bonuses to Sniper Activation.Their support weapons and equipment is often quite shoddy. Allied Minor (Belgium, Denmark, etc.) Allied Minor generally have average troops all-round, but take penalties when their infantry attack vehicles in close combat and are often poorly equipped with support weapons, vehicles, and leaders. Axis Minor (Bulgaria, Croatia, etc.) Some of the worst troops in the game, with their elites barely exceeding Russian 1st-lines in capability. Some of the better-equipped Hungarian and Romanian troops can use special 5-3-7 squads to compensate, and may be equipped with Panzerfausts and anti-tank magnetic mines like the Germans. Chinese (KMT): A lot like Axis Minor, complete with special 5-3-7 and atrocious leader generation numbers. However, they have access to Human Wave to compensate for their terrible range, and Elite troops may become Dare-Death squads that can go berserk at will to charge into close combat. Partisan: Partisans have poor firepower and range and low morale, but their morale is underscored, allowing them to retain their force and experience even with terrible rolls. Otherwise they’re pretty poorly equipped, though Partisans sometimes get to use Soviet 5-2-7 counters to represent well-equipped troops. Their main advantages lie in that underscored morale, having set up the scenario to begin in a situation they might win, and in facing off against shoddy rear-line troops. Chinese (Communist) The Communist Chinese are Partisans with Commissars that don’t shoot their troops, and are immune to the detrimental effects of doubles on IFT rolls. Italians: In many ways worse than Axis Minor, with 6 being the typical morale, few and not very good leaders, and Heat of Battle rolls that tend to favour surrendering. Finns: Finns are poorly equipped with vehicles but tend to have very high firepower and morale, exemplified in their 6-4-8 squads. Winter War troops can often rally with a leader present, making them able to return to a fight and fight effectively while dispersed. To compensate, they have somewhat poor leaders, which leaves the Continuation War conscripts somewhat wanting. LatwPIAT fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jan 5, 2021 |
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Jan 4, 2021 22:46
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LatwPIAT posted:Jobbo has answered this in part, but there are dozens of little things that affect how a side fights. Ones outside what you can see on a Squad counter that relate to more doctrinal things include the availability number for off-board artillery, the average number of leaders per squad, the probability that a leader will be higher quality, the probability of good and bad results on the Heat of Battle roll, the the availability of certain types of support weapons, sniper availability, vehicle engine quality, Experience Level Rating modifiers, and a number of special rules exceptions. France: A middle-ground between the British and Italy. They sometimes have access to good units, and the latest reprint of the French module gave players "Regular" French, Vichy French, and Free French counters. They have squads that reflect British units, but they don't get the same bonuses and they use worse numbers on the To Kill table (for guns/vehicles). By the time you've got Free French troops, you're also getting tons of American equipment. As well, not sure how frequently it will show up, but there's another major difference between a lot of nationalities in the form of Artillery. You see, to use artillery you have to draw from a chit pile to see if you have access to that battery. (Lest it be called for duty at some other point on the front, you see!) The Americans have one of the best Black (good) to Red (bad) chit pile ratios of 10/3. The British have 8/2, whereas the Germans sit at 8/3; the Russians have 5/2. On the flipside, the Russians typically get rocket artillery a lot more, which is less accurate but slightly more deadly.
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Jan 4, 2021 23:41
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Are artillery chits put back in the pile after drawn, or are they one use only?
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Jan 5, 2021 02:27
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White Coke posted:Are artillery chits put back in the pile after drawn, or are they one use only? They are, with one exception, removed from the pile. This means that there's a limit to the number of successes (and failures) you can have in calling for off-board artillery, and the probability to getting an artillery strike increases once the first red chit is removed (drawing a second means you lose access for the rest of the scenario).
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Jan 5, 2021 02:48
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Man, a lot of those factional bonuses/deals sure seem like a lot of ahistorical pop culture/bad history stuff. Especially the russians, germans, and japanese.
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Jan 5, 2021 03:08
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Nea posted:Man, a lot of those factional bonuses/deals sure seem like a lot of ahistorical pop culture/bad history stuff. Especially the russians, germans, and japanese. it’s an old hex based war game, after all.
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Jan 5, 2021 03:39
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Nea posted:Man, a lot of those factional bonuses/deals sure seem like a lot of ahistorical pop culture/bad history stuff. Especially the russians, germans, and japanese. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It feels like historical analysis on the same level you’d get from a pamphlet somebody handed out for free at a gun show.
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Jan 5, 2021 03:48
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Nea posted:Man, a lot of those factional bonuses/deals sure seem like a lot of ahistorical pop culture/bad history stuff. Especially the russians, germans, and japanese. There is absolutely no reason the Russians shouldn't get access to 4-5-7s after 1942 and have regular leader generation number and average if not Hero/Hardening-leaning Heat of Battle with immunity to surrender starting 1942. At this point the RKKA has been almost completely remade with a new and more meritocratic junior NCO and officer structure and better training, and the news of the German genocide by exposure and starvation of Soviet POWs had made surrender unthinkable. (See Ivan's War by Catherine Merridale) The Commissars and Human Wave attacks are ahistorical at best outside of certain desperate attacks in the early months of Barbarossa and could definitely be gotten away with. The Germans need a serious case of the Modern Historiography Bat, especially the Waffen-SS who if anything were just as if not more prone to wasteful "human wave" tactics that left the majority of their pre-war experienced personnel and veterans in shallow graves slightly west of Stalingrad rather than distributing their experiences to new recruits. There's absolutely no reason ethnic German Hungarians press-ganged into Waffen-SS service and other desperate conscripts from 1943 should be better troops than, say, the British Airborne. The 6th SS mountain division was terrible, breaking and routing twice in combat against the Soviet Union during the massive successes of Barbarossa. The 2nd SS division, one of the better trained divisions that can possibly lay claim to the title of 'elite', lost 60% of its combat strength and 40% of its officers fighting in the Soviet Union in November 1941. (Link 1, Link 2)
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Jan 5, 2021 04:12
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The Soviets also had huge amounts of artillery available, especially at the end of the war they'd have at least five times as many pieces as the Germans, and I think they'd sometimes have 10 times as many in certain areas.
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Jan 5, 2021 05:03
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Nea posted:Man, a lot of those factional bonuses/deals sure seem like a lot of ahistorical pop culture/bad history stuff. Especially the russians, germans, and japanese. Natty Ninefingers posted:it’s an old hex based war game, after all. Pirate Radar posted:Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It feels like historical analysis on the same level you’d get from a pamphlet somebody handed out for free at a gun show. So, I have to go to bat for the game but not for the reasons you may think. Stuff like the Human Wave was a real thing. Certainly not to the extent of "Hordes of Russians blocking the sun" and whatever garbage some of the pop history groups promote. The 8-3-8 Assault Engineers is also pretty rough, because yeah that's a lot of firepower, and it should probably be more of a 7 or something, however, it should be noted that these sorts of discrepancies between units are mitigated by two major factors: First, just because there are German 8-3-8s doesn't mean you'll see many in 1945 when Germany is relying on 2nd line troops and Conscripts to hold the line against monstrous 6-2-8 SMG squads. Secondly, many SSRs are in place to add or detract from the regular rules to bring the scenario's action more in line with reality or, at the very least, a fun experience for both player. For example, I'm almost 100% certain there are at least 2 scenarios where the SS units are forced to conduct a Human Wave. White Coke posted:The Soviets also had huge amounts of artillery available, especially at the end of the war they'd have at least five times as many pieces as the Germans, and I think they'd sometimes have 10 times as many in certain areas. Yeah by the end of the war the Germans are in shambles, and you see it reflected in the OOB and the SSRs
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Jan 5, 2021 05:09
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Random Scenario OOB - March 24, 1945 I pulled this at random, but its indicative of how designers get around ubermensch and whatever dumb poo poo nazis spout. Germans have 6 squads, 4 are conscripts. 1 good leader, a lovely infantry gun, vs 7(!) 6-6-7 Elite squads. Add 2 Tank Destroyers for additional death and chaos. Victory conditions: Americans have to exit a number of VP off a board edge.
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Jan 5, 2021 05:24
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I can understand how the designers said “human wave attacks happened, let’s model that” and sure, during the period of initial focus it makes sense (I’m guessing the first scenarios were built around German/Soviet battles from Barbarossa?). But in other stages of the war, or other stages of history, it stops seeming correct. Similarly you mentioned that the Chinese troops here can make suicide attacks (Dare to Die) but that comes from the decades of warfare during the revolutionary period->warlord era->Sino-Japanese war->civil war part of Chinese history, so in 1908 we’re a little early for that. But of course the rule makers were thinking of the later period and not the earlier one when they wrote the rules; it was some other scenario designer who came along and wrote this one. Maybe it would make more historical sense if human wave attacks were something that could be enabled or disabled for any side to reflect the conditions that side found itself in during the scenario itself.
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Jan 5, 2021 06:01
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Pirate Radar posted:I can understand how the designers said “human wave attacks happened, let’s model that” and sure, during the period of initial focus it makes sense (I’m guessing the first scenarios were built around German/Soviet battles from Barbarossa?). But in other stages of the war, or other stages of history, it stops seeming correct. Similarly you mentioned that the Chinese troops here can make suicide attacks (Dare to Die) but that comes from the decades of warfare during the revolutionary period->warlord era->Sino-Japanese war->civil war part of Chinese history, so in 1908 we’re a little early for that. But of course the rule makers were thinking of the later period and not the earlier one when they wrote the rules; it was some other scenario designer who came along and wrote this one. Agreed. Only thing I can restate is that that's the power of SSRs and other designer tools, they can rectify misconceptions held by popular opinion, or allow for non-standard use of rules seen with other nations. The Italians are a nation that also get screwed, with scenarios that feature elite troops treated as 2nd line and conscript troops, and one of the major Third Party Publishers mentioned that a fix would be a straight +1 morale to all units of particular divisions. Just adds to the tapestry of ASL, where you can incorporate as much or as little chrome as you want. Also nazi scum can gently caress off and suck my poo poo through a straw. (I might as well get the jump on that one before we get to warcrimes o'clock that is possible in 193X+)
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Jan 5, 2021 06:08
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Yeah by the end of the war the Germans are in shambles, and you see it reflected in the OOB and the SSRs That, and the Soviets prioritized building lots of artillery (although a lot of it was 76mm guns) and they were very good at concentrating units at the point of attack while concealing them from the Germans.
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Jan 5, 2021 09:28
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White Coke posted:That, and the Soviets prioritized building lots of artillery (although a lot of it was 76mm guns) and they were very good at concentrating units at the point of attack while concealing them from the Germans. The Soviets prioritized mass concentrations of artillery at the point of attack because they knew that was the best way for them to use it. They lacked the communications and expertise to use it in a dispersed way and the soviet artillery effectiveness fell way off after the beginning of operations once things got into mobile battles. I'm all for not looking at the Soviets stereotypically, but they had problems that lasted throughout much of the war. LatwPIAT posted:There is absolutely no reason the Russians shouldn't get access to 4-5-7s after 1942 and have regular leader generation number and average if not Hero/Hardening-leaning Heat of Battle with immunity to surrender starting 1942. At this point the RKKA has been almost completely remade with a new and more meritocratic junior NCO and officer structure and better training, and the news of the German genocide by exposure and starvation of Soviet POWs had made surrender unthinkable. (See Ivan's War by Catherine Merridale) The Commissars and Human Wave attacks are ahistorical at best outside of certain desperate attacks in the early months of Barbarossa and could definitely be gotten away with. Ehhh- if you look at MTOEs in the Red Army, they tended to go toward favoring more and more SMGs and close combat as the war went on. The officer staffing and NCOs improved, but the ballooning of the army and heavy losses meant they never really got a chance to rebuild everything in an ideal way. The way they meticulously planned operations got them far, but they very much tended to suffer in chaotic encounter battles for a variety of reasons. That being said, as people have said, this is a tactical game system, and much rests on the scenarios.
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Jan 5, 2021 11:45
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FT-116: Meet The Madsens (PART 3) The attacking flank from the Chinese on the left has floundered, with only one active squad in O2 and broken squads in various hexes in between them and the main body of the Chinese force. If they make a decisive push out the middle, it may still prove dangerous for my troops, provided they don't stack as much either. Turn 5 - Mongolians  State of the board as of the start of this turn. My 9-1 leader rallies the squad, while the Chinese have poor rolls.  A shot in the Prep Fire Phase knocks out a stack of Chinese troops hiding in the forests (the 3rd conscript squad breaks too).  A few shots back and forth between both sides feels more like the typical exchange at this point and I was starting to feel this skirmish wind down between the two of us. In all honesty, with that one big stack crumbling, its impossible for the Chinese player to get into enough buildings for the victory conditions. Since I steal the building at the bottom edge of our view of the map, they would have to take control of 5 entire buildings in this shot, and the only easy one is 8L3 because its 1 hex. Turn 6 - Chinese  The 6+1 Leader couldn't make his self-rally roll, and I have nothing serious to deal with.  As my opponent prep fires a few times, it then devolves into chaos as they move stacks of units ever-closer to my main line. Sgt. Ganbold reveals himself and the accompanying Partisan squad and rips into the 1st Line Squad on the hill, breaking one and pinning the other.  In what appears to be a desperate move, the Elites are then sent in, but a follow-up shot by the Sgt and his men prove even more devastating. Not only does half a Chinese squad perish, but both squads break as well.  Which seals the deal for the battle. The Chinese leadership is in shambles, their men are either caught out in the open, isolated, or broken. Both players agree that the scenario has run its course, the Mongolians have carried the day, and now it is off to make preparations for the next fight. But how did this go historically Aftermath posted:The Mongolians were not going to be "taken care of" by any Chinese military force. However, the Mongolians found out about machine guns when Chinese Guards opened fire. Mongolians were driven from their homes. Chinese forces took control of the region but the Mongolians now looked to Russia for help. The Tsar of Russia, always looking for more land, started sending arms and advisors to the Barga Mongolians. The days of the Manchu Dynasty were fading to a close. And with that, so ends the first scenario in this crazy run. Full disclaimer, I only learned this was my opponent's first ASL game ever after we played, and all in all it could have been a lot worse, so pretty commendable to have played the attacking side. The "moving as a stack" part really screwed them over, but that's a learning phase for all players. I have to say as well that I feel like I diced my opponent. Rarely did I roll over an 8 or a 9. As well, of the possible 4 sniper activations available, all 4 were duds; they seemed to be pre-occupied with something else. Oh, and there was a mixup in how to calculate Dare Death Squads so my opponent thought they only had 1 when they should've had 3. Growing pains, it'll get better. All in all, I enjoyed this scenario. Could be a good training scenario since the rules are relatively simple, there's good potential for Dare Death squads and the cavalry can be put to good effect. Decent amount of replayability too, with how the map looks and the two victory conditions.
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Jan 5, 2021 16:58
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Panzeh posted:Ehhh- if you look at MTOEs in the Red Army, they tended to go toward favoring more and more SMGs and close combat as the war went on. The officer staffing and NCOs improved, but the ballooning of the army and heavy losses meant they never really got a chance to rebuild everything in an ideal way. The way they meticulously planned operations got them far, but they very much tended to suffer in chaotic encounter battles for a variety of reasons. The use of submachine guns leaned heavily towards concentrating them in special assault companies, which is where you get the 5-2-7 and 6-2-8s. (The German 8-3-8 and Romanian 5-3-7 represent a similar pattern of SMG-armed assault troops. Romanians can shoot further than Russians for ~reasons~.) The main body of rifle-armed troops would still be equipped primarily with rifles, though I guess some would have a decent allotment of SMGs (which should probably be reflected in some access to Assault Fire capability, but I can see why that'd be tedious to include). It's more that range is supposed to represent leadership, aggressiveness, and the ability to lay down lots of firepower as much as accuracy, and I'm a bit ambivalent on whether it's accurate that this should be represented only through a greater number of 4-5-8 Elites. Nea posted:Man, a lot of those factional bonuses/deals sure seem like a lot of ahistorical pop culture/bad history stuff. Especially the russians, germans, and japanese. There's an article by John Hill, who designed Squad Leader and Advanced Squad Leader, about the differences between German, British, and Soviet infantry during WWII that justifies the way things are represented in ASL. And it's very... Germans getting to write the history of the Eastern Front. See, when you're German and attack the same vulnerable point in the enemy lines over and over again until it breaks is attacking the schwerpunkt with a tactical concentration of forces until you achieve local superiority and break through. But when you're Russian, attacking the same vulnerable spot in the enemy line until it breaks is throwing bodies at the problem in human waves until sheer numbers wear the enemy down. All this said I love ASL. I play a scenario basically every time I visit my parents and my dad's collection of boards and counters. It's great fun and as someone who does game design as a hobby it's amazing how well and mechanically elegant some things are done in this game. With a single roll the game determines, when shooting a cannon, whether you: a) Hit b) If hit, if it was a hull or turret hit c) If the loader and gunner work fast enough to justify a second attack this turn d) If the volume of fire was large enough to justify roll-twice-pick-highest on the to-kill roll e) If it was a critical hit f) If the cannon malfunctioned g) If you're trying to fire special ammo, whether the loader was able to find any in time Getting this big a possibility space out of 2d6, so you don't have to roll many dice on big, elaborate tables, is not an easy task.
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Jan 5, 2021 20:24
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LatwPIAT posted:It's more that range is supposed to represent leadership, aggressiveness, and the ability to lay down lots of firepower as much as accuracy, and I'm a bit ambivalent on whether it's accurate that this should be represented only through a greater number of 4-5-8 Elites. Rulebook posted:2. 1.22 RANGE: Range is far more than simply a measure of the distance a unit's weapons can shoot. It is also an abstracted measure of the unit's discipline, fire doctrine, training, and willingness to engage an enemy. The player who assumes that his units will fire at any enemy they can see is giving them the benefit of far more heroic and aggressive tendencies than they usually possessed. Fire draws fire in return, and more units sought to duck a fight than to seek one.
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Jan 5, 2021 20:36
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Yeah, kinda my point: I think the mid-late-war Red Army possessed more of that than they did in '41, because they're better trained, better motivated, better led, and more able to engage the enemy.
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Jan 5, 2021 20:42
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LatwPIAT posted:Yeah, kinda my point: I think the mid-late-war Red Army possessed more of that than they did in '41, because they're better trained, better motivated, better led, and more able to engage the enemy. That's why you see more Elite squads in late war scenarios. Its a solution that's already been fixed by having different squad types and versatile OOB designs.  Those are the available Russian squads. What else should they get and why?
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Jan 5, 2021 20:58
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Jobbo_Fett posted:That's why you see more Elite squads in late war scenarios. Its a solution that's already been fixed by having different squad types and versatile OOB designs.
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Jan 5, 2021 23:55
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FrangibleCover posted:They should get access to a 5-3-7 and a 6-3-8 representing the Soviet units that vault the lofty bar of being better than the Romanians. Would it not make more sense to properly represent the Soviet Army as it existed late 42-45 and then special rule them being useless for the first year of the war instead of representing the mess at the start of the war and then having to bodge them into competence? I dunno, seems to make sense to me that SMG armed Soviets would have 2 range .
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Jan 6, 2021 00:17
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Aloha! I'm Jobbo's current partner in this insanity, the one handling the Chinese horribly. Not horrific for my first ever ASL game, but there's obviously lots of room for improvement. We're starting the next scenario later this week, so we'll see if there's any improvement. Thoughts as an ASL noob so far: * It's fun. I'm not sold yet on whether it's a reasonably accurate simulation of squad warfare or not, but it's at least enjoyable to push counters around. * A plan is necessary. The scenarios are sorry enough that you need to have a pretty concrete idea what you're going to do from the get-go: see me being too timid initially and thus unable to get to grips with the Mongolians soon enough. * The rules are actually pretty simple as far as my experience with wargames goes, but the organization leaves something to be desired, which hampers things a bit. There's a lot of flipping back and forth trying to make sure you're catching all the rules interactions sometimes. I hope the next version tries to address this but I highly suspect they won't due to inertia and resistance from the ASL grog community. The layout could also use some work, while I'm wishing for ponies. * I'm looking forward to seeing the development of weapons and vehicles as we go. It's neat seeing stuff get introduced slowly. I'm happy to answer any questions or whatever, but I'll be checking out of the thread while we're playing a scenario to avoid seeing Jobbo's side of things.
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Jan 6, 2021 01:06
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