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green leaf salad posted:Yeah, she saw what O'chul was trying to do and finished the job. She didn't realise that Soon was actually kicking rear end and if she'd helped him out instead the Gate could safely be left intact. So she did what she thought was best, it was just poor judgement and lack of information. I disagree, if what I suggested and Robot Bastard edited to unknowingly agreed with is true, then it isn't just reacting tot he situation and messing up, it's that she now believes it is the gods will the gate be destroyed, and from everything we've seen she is single minded in her pursuit of what she thinks the gods want her to do. Worst case scenario? She becomes convinced that, since this didn't get her powers back, she has to destroy the other gates as well, then they'll restore her paladin hood. Bitch fell off the crazy tree and hit every branch on the way down.
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Jun 7, 2007 06:14
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I honestly can't blame her. She's just a little too focused for her own good. I mean who'd expect some ghost that's never appeared until now to absolutely kick Xykon and Redcloak's respective butts?
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Jun 7, 2007 06:23
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Heeey, the site's down and everyone besides me is a dick!
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Jun 7, 2007 06:24
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bgaesop posted:Heeey, the site's down and everyone besides me is a dick! In our defense it was working fine for a while there until everyone realized he did it on time. Although, while I can't speak for anyone else, I am still a dick.
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Jun 7, 2007 06:27
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I'm beginning to believe that Miko is, in a term from KoDT, lawful stupid. Or perhaps lawful voluntarily deluded. Okay, so... refresh my memory. I was thinking for a moment that Miko smashing the gem would result in an explosion, but I was confusing that with the self-destruct rune from the end of the first arc. She just basically opened a really tiny gate for the Snarl, right?
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Jun 7, 2007 06:37
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Well, since when the first gate was destroyed, it resulted in a massive explosion, I think we can say goodbye to to the castle and possibly the entire city as well. Oh and the hobgoblin army as well since redcloak led them to it. Basically, this is a wipe for the next campaign phase. Also, Miko will evade the explosion and live on to the next stage of the campaign. Which is bullshit but whatever. Since Roy's corpse is intact, Durkon will raise him and the party will continue to the next gate. However, I bet Snarl's influence will be felt through the weakened gates. The barrier could stand losing one gate, but two may provide an opening for the beast.
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Jun 7, 2007 06:46
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clockworkjoe posted:Well, since when the first gate was destroyed, it resulted in a massive explosion, I think we can say goodbye to to the castle and possibly the entire city as well. Oh and the hobgoblin army as well since redcloak led them to it. Redcloak already blew up one of the gates in some dumb forest somewhere.
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Jun 7, 2007 06:48
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Robot Bastard posted:No; I figure we'll learn that she's doing what she thinks she was supposed to have already done. Ah, yeah. That makes sense.
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Jun 7, 2007 06:56
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Endrite posted:Redcloak already blew up one of the gates in some dumb forest somewhere. gently caress
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Jun 7, 2007 06:57
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Wait, was the bit with Zykon and Redcloak about "being close to the prize" a Butch and Sundance reference? Even if it isn't, it did sound like that.
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Jun 7, 2007 06:58
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Do we know that the gem in the throne was a Gate? Or are we just going by what the characters have told us? Remember that we've been lied to before. It might be fun if the next plotline involves Zombie Roy. As in, Xykon and Redcloak grab Roy's corpse on their way by, and reanimate it as some powerful form of Undead. After a bit of pursuit, the Order catches up with Xykon--and are forced to fight their former comrade! Who proves to be even more of a badass dead than he was when alive. And just as all seems lost, Zombie Roy inadvertently breaks the vial and summons his Elf Girlfriend; she kills him. Then Durkon re-animates him. "Wait, where's my sword?!" Turns out Xykon took that nasty green-hilted sword away. Now they have to find it... edit: I'd also like to see Miko die, become a ghost, and then spend the rest of eternity fighting with Soon. He wants to kill her because she's such a dunce, and she wants to kill him for some crazy reason or other. Unfortunately, since they're ghosts they can't hurt each other...
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Jun 7, 2007 07:00
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Wasn't the explosion from Dorukan's gate a result of the rune Elan triggered, rather than the result of the gate's destruction?clockworkjoe posted:Also, Miko will evade the explosion and live on to the next stage of the campaign. Which is bullshit but whatever. I would accept this if it was played as a joke about how occasionally retarded Evasion can be.
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Jun 7, 2007 07:09
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bgaesop posted:Heeey, the site's down and everyone besides me is a dick! Thank you, you beautiful little man.
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Jun 7, 2007 07:13
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Robot Bastard posted:edit: I'd also like to see Miko die, become a ghost, and then spend the rest of eternity fighting with Soon. He wants to kill her because she's such a dunce, and she wants to kill him for some crazy reason or other. Unfortunately, since they're ghosts they can't hurt each other... Ghosts can hurt each other. In D&D at least.
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Jun 7, 2007 07:15
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Haha, great. Xykon escapes, Miko destroys the gate anyway (so there are what? two left?), and we can now get out of this jerk Azure City and get back to adventuring  I wonder, now that Soon has no purpose, will his ghost vanish? Just sort of hang out? Try to attack Miko?
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Jun 7, 2007 07:58
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The Werle posted:Thank you, you beautiful little man. That's the second time a BSSer has complimented me in as many days, I'm starting to get paranoid. 
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Jun 7, 2007 08:09
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Wolfsheim posted:I wonder, now that Soon has no purpose, will his ghost vanish? Just sort of hang out? Try to attack Miko? I hope he gives Miko a good talking-to and she feels REALLY BAD 
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Jun 7, 2007 08:40
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Assuming the ensuing (potential) explosion or rift torn in the space-time continuum or what-have-you doesn't explode/implode Soon, I really feel that he would be well within his Gods-given rights to throw down his daily use of Smite Stupid Bitch. But that would be too easy, Miko will get out of that particular pickle without a scratch, the Order will get in just in time to see everything be over and done with (though a tiny part of me hopes they'll at least wing Xykon or Redcloak during the mad flight-dash out of the throne room), and then, just as I am losing faith in the strip, Belkar will toddle off-panel for an indeterminate amount of time, stab Miko right in the eye, and all will be well with the universe. At least, that is just how I think things will go based on having read the strip up to this point.
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Jun 7, 2007 09:51
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DAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMNNNN... Things take a turn for the decidedly worse. I really hope Roy gets rezzed and gets to be the one to tell Miko how she just aided the ever-nearing doom of existance. He deserves it.
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Jun 7, 2007 10:49
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Yes I guess it was always going to come down to the gem smashing, but it was cool to see how close the badguys came to defeat. I am wondering if the ghost martyrs were a late inclusion, but in any event I liked how things turned out. Now it's just a matter of how big the boom is, assuming one is coming. I'm sure there will be some kind of climax, because this seems like a lead-up to one. I'm really wondering what will be left of the city after this, it's already on fire.Ferrinus posted:But really though, hot-headedness is not a feature of moral alignment. Heck, it's not even a feature of ethical alignment. It's a basic personality trait that any character can have. Good means that you are willing to make personal sacrifices to defend innocents against the depredation of monsters, not that you have good table manners and impeccable judgement. quote:No, I agree with you here, killing Shojo was definitely evil. But your alignment doesn't constantly change to match the last act you performed! quote:Oh, they'd definitely fall. But they'd still be Lawful Good. A single moment of weakness doesn't change your entire alignment if it doesn't change your basic intentions! quote:Well let's say the guy (he's a Ranger or something so leave the Paladin thing out of this) who killed his best friend/adulterous wife develops a huge obsession over the event and refuses to admit that he was in the wrong - but continues living as he did before as a Lawful Good character. He still donates to charity and protects villages from goblins and so on because he believes it's the right thing to do. He doesn't reconcile the wife thing with his other beliefs because he simply doesn't want to due to personal issues, even though it's obviously contradictory. What is he? quote:The point isn't that everyone thinks they're lowercase-g good. The point is that the personalities and motives of some characters are structured in such a way that they honestly want to uphold the details of the Good alignment in D&D, which means altruism and do-gooding and general civic service. Sorry, I missed this particular but of guff when skipping past robot bastard's post: Robot Bastard posted:You know, I think I see the fundamental problem here. Nobody is saying D&D alignment is like real world alignment, but it's not the bizzare impossible premise people claim, either. It's just a set of loving guidelines. There's no reason you can't use it as part of a 'morally grey' scenarion, that's bullshit invented by people who don't know anything about character motivation and ethics (real or fictional) anyway.
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Jun 7, 2007 11:45
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At the very least, if they can hold the city, I suppose this particular gate can probably be reconstructed with difficulty. (And yeah, the explosion at the castle wasn't because of the gate being destroyed, it was the method of destroying the gate) All depends on if the Snarl will try to prevent it from being closed, but it hasn't been too active thus far. I think that the rifts probably need to be given time since their unsealing before they're open to the point where they can cause damage. Remember, they were around for a while before the last gate was finished. I don't think this is as bad a situation as people are making it out to be here. And I think Miko was pretty justified in what she was doing here. She enters, sees the Ghosts getting their arses kicked by Redcloak, Soon locked in battle with Xykon, and O'Chul paralysed whilst trying to destroy the gate, something she knows is a last-resort better than letting it fall into Xykon's hands. Going 'Oh crap better finish what they're trying to do' is a fairly reasonable decision, if a hasty one.
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Jun 7, 2007 11:49
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I can't be the only one who went a little  at the baddie's last moments? That was a neat little moment there.
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Jun 7, 2007 13:41
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Robot Bastard posted:Do we know that the gem in the throne was a Gate? Or are we just going by what the characters have told us? Remember that we've been lied to before. If I remember correctly, when Shojo was telling the story of Snarl, or sometime before the battle began, there was a zoom in on the jewel that showed the gate inside it.
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Jun 7, 2007 13:58
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MikeJF posted:And I think Miko was pretty justified in what she was doing here. She enters, sees the Ghosts getting their arses kicked by Redcloak, Soon locked in battle with Xykon, and O'Chul paralysed whilst trying to destroy the gate, something she knows is a last-resort better than letting it fall into Xykon's hands. Going 'Oh crap better finish what they're trying to do' is a fairly reasonable decision, if a hasty one. I might have agreed with you until I had a 2nd and 3rd look at the strip. Take a look at Miko. Does she even look like she's looking at what's going on? If she'd looked up, she'd have seen Soon about to finish team Evil off. If she'd been concerned about anything but her great destiny, she wouldn't have smashed the gate. Look at the "treasure type O" look on her face as she does it. She may not be evil, but she is self-absorbed to the point of being dangerous. A sociopath, if you will. Did she make the right call when she entered the throne room? Yes. Did she selfishly zoom in on something that would bring her personal glory? Also yes. Ironically, she purposefully did what she called the OOTS criminals for doing by accident. (As has been pointed out.) Even worse, if she'd just looked up, she could have smashed Xykon's phylactery, and been called a hero for stopping him once and for all. Perhaps even atoned. She's still a tragic character, but in an irredeemable sort of way. I don't even WANT to like her anymore.
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Jun 7, 2007 15:14
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BlueArmyMan posted:If I remember correctly, when Shojo was telling the story of Snarl, or sometime before the battle began, there was a zoom in on the jewel that showed the gate inside it. Also, remember that the person who told us that the snarl was in that gem was Hinjo, who is Lawful Good and an unfallen Paladin and so is very much not in the habit of lying about important matters.
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Jun 7, 2007 16:31
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CoolCab posted:I can't be the only one who went a little Nope, I did too. It was a classical 'I love you man' moment.
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Jun 7, 2007 16:50
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Man... I really like this comic. It's great. And yet, part of me is starting to feel disenfranchised with it. Logically I know the villains can't completely lose, as much fun as it would be to see that happen. I'm still getting tired of how predictably Miko fucks everything up though. All in the name of advancing the plot, obviously, but it's such a one trick pony to me. Of course, that might be why I don't care for Belkar either. Ah well, I'll keep reading and see where it goes, it's still miles ahead of most webcomics in my eyes.
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Jun 7, 2007 18:02
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I think the comic shows that Burlew is good at pulling you in to the storyline. I'm pretty sure I don't want Xylon and Redcloak to die, since they're fun villains, but for a split moment, I was super-pissed off at they got away again, because I'd sided with the OOTS so strongly.
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Jun 7, 2007 18:16
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Wanderer posted:I'm beginning to believe that Miko is, in a term from KoDT, lawful stupid. Or perhaps lawful voluntarily deluded. Knights of the Dinner Table did not coin that term, nor did it ever have a single shred of loving worth in its entire goddamn lovely ultra-worthless run. The artist/writer is a talentless piece of dog poo poo whose drivel should have never been produced. No, really; tell me how you feel about Knights of the Dinner Table, Quarex. I actually used to like it a lot, until I noticed that the creator had drawn all of about 5 unique panels in his entire life and seemingly used MSPaint to slightly alter facial features when it was required. It then fell from grace. Bobulus posted:I think the comic shows that Burlew is good at pulling you in to the storyline. I'm pretty sure I don't want Xylon and Redcloak to die, since they're fun villains, but for a split moment, I was super-pissed off at they got away again, because I'd sided with the OOTS so strongly. Well, he is certainly a skilled writer; that is proven time and again. I did not want Xykon and Redcloak to die there, just because it really did not seem like Soon was that much of a badass until this very panel (maybe it was foreshadowed and I just did not pay attention; I am not sure). I thought it was established that Miko was the most powerful Paladin, with goatee-guy being the second most powerful; that does not leave room for Soon to be this awesome, particularly since Miko got bounced across a room with a single slash from Roy's sword, though Roy could not do much of anything against Xykon (even with a sword enchanted against him specifically, right?). But it was still a pretty rad scene.
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Jun 7, 2007 18:39
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Quarex posted:Well, he is certainly a skilled writer; that is proven time and again. I did not want Xykon and Redcloak to die there, just because it really did not seem like Soon was that much of a badass until this very panel (maybe it was foreshadowed and I just did not pay attention; I am not sure). I thought it was established that Miko was the most powerful Paladin, with goatee-guy being the second most powerful; that does not leave room for Soon to be this awesome, particularly since Miko got bounced across a room with a single slash from Roy's sword, though Roy could not do much of anything against Xykon (even with a sword enchanted against him specifically, right?). But it was still a pretty rad scene. Miko is/was the most powerful Paladin alive at that time. Soon is the founder of the order, part of the group that originally contained the snarl, and general badass. Of course he's frigging powerful. He's probably epic or near-epic
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Jun 7, 2007 18:45
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Quarex posted:Well, he is certainly a skilled writer; that is proven time and again. I did not want Xykon and Redcloak to die there, just because it really did not seem like Soon was that much of a badass until this very panel (maybe it was foreshadowed and I just did not pay attention; I am not sure). I thought it was established that Miko was the most powerful Paladin, with goatee-guy being the second most powerful; that does not leave room for Soon to be this awesome, particularly since Miko got bounced across a room with a single slash from Roy's sword, though Roy could not do much of anything against Xykon (even with a sword enchanted against him specifically, right?). But it was still a pretty rad scene. Soon was a member of the original party that made the gates (or something, I forget their involvement) and is the legendary hero and founder of the Sapphire Guards. If anything I'd expect his ghost to be more powerful.
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Jun 7, 2007 18:46
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To be fair if I'd walked in on that scene I'd probably have done the same thing. But Burlew will make sure to make Miko's motivations for this as unsympathetic as possible.
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Jun 7, 2007 18:48
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Quarex posted:Knights of the Dinner Table did not coin that term, nor did it ever have a single shred of loving worth in its entire goddamn lovely ultra-worthless run. The artist/writer is a talentless piece of dog poo poo whose drivel should have never been produced. That's not really a reason to hate it. He manages to arrange his clipart in such a way to tell a story at least. He is not trying to hide that he can't draw. I love dinoasaur comics and it is always the same panels. Then again it is generally much better written than KoDT.
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Jun 7, 2007 18:55
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CoolCab posted:I can't be the only one who went a little I certainly was! It's good to know they'll still be a team. Efreet Saiid posted:There's a huge difference between good table manners and not bareing steel over a petty insult. On the other hand, there's a huge difference between conscious acceptance of the premise "Everyone who insults me must die" and "Aw crap, now I'm holding my sword in the middle of a formal dinner again." quote:But is is weighed towards the substance of your actions and how grevious they are. What? Why? The character's basic personality hasn't changed. His motives and aspirations haven't changed. He just slipped up due to a strong emotional response. This sort of attitude treats alignment as though it were a special privelige to be taken away at any moment. Alignment is one of the ways that a player gets to define his character, and a DM has no more power over your character's alignment than he does over your character's race or background. (Which is to say that he can tell you to take a different alignment because the one you've chosen doesn't fit his game, but he can't tell you you're not allowed to play as a dwarf anymore because you saw some gold and didn't obsessively try to acquire it once.) If I was the DM in a situation like that, I'd ask my player if his character has decided that it's now justified in general to murder people for romantic unfaithfulness, in which case I'd suggest he start calling himself Lawful Neutral because that kind of attitude simply doesn't fit within Good. But if he's instead intent on leaving the episode as something the character himself simply hasn't mentally dealt with yet, I'd leave him where he is. Because, ostensibly, he still wants to fight evil and protect innocents. Really, if any alignment should be strongly restricted by DMs it's True Neutral because that's the only one that leaves you immune to pretty much every alignment-affecting magic there is  quote:Yes but that still doesn't mean they're good, if they aren't. Saying it doesn't make it so. I'm telling you it does! Otherwise everyone who's never had any opportunity to engage in heroic or villainous action is True Neutral, no matter their personalities or motives.
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Jun 7, 2007 19:35
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Quarex posted:Knights of the Dinner Table did not coin that term, nor did it ever have a single shred of loving worth in its entire goddamn lovely ultra-worthless run. The artist/writer is a talentless piece of dog poo poo whose drivel should have never been produced. If it makes you feel better, I will say rather that I first encountered the term there.
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Jun 7, 2007 20:20
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Ferrinus posted:I'm telling you it does! Otherwise everyone who's never had any opportunity to engage in heroic or villainous action is True Neutral, no matter their personalities or motives. Ferrinus, stop making this harder than it has to be. Just look at Miko. If you think she's evil, she's evil. She's an insane king-slaying antagonist who attacks and attempts to kill lawful good paladins while they're doing lawful good things. She's evil man. She was LG for a while, but she went evil. Just apply the alignment tags where they seem fitting. Don't overthink it, or you'll find yourself claiming that Belkar is True Neutral because he follows the law sometimes and hasn't managed to do anything technically evil, even though he tries over and over again.
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Jun 7, 2007 20:28
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Zoolooman posted:Ferrinus, stop making this harder than it has to be. Just look at Miko. If you think she's evil, she's evil. She's an insane king-slaying antagonist who attacks and attempts to kill lawful good paladins while they're doing lawful good things. She's evil man. She was LG for a while, but she went evil. I don't dispute she's evil. I dispute when she became evil. Some say she became evil in 405, and I think that's wrong. She became evil in 409.
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Jun 7, 2007 20:44
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clockworkjoe posted:Well, since when the first gate was destroyed, it resulted in a massive explosion, I think we can say goodbye to to the castle and possibly the entire city as well. Oh and the hobgoblin army as well since redcloak led them to it. The first gate was actually destroyed as a result of the explosion of the castle, triggered by a self destruct rune, the forest gate was destroyed by a large fire, the gates don't seem to do anything corporally apparent when they are destroyed. Zoolooman posted:Ferrinus, stop making this harder than it has to be. Just look at Miko. If you think she's evil, she's evil. She's an insane king-slaying antagonist who attacks and attempts to kill lawful good paladins while they're doing lawful good things. She's evil man. She was LG for a while, but she went evil. Belkar has murdered dozens of innocents just on panel, and probably hundreds more before he joined the OoTS, alignment isn't some numerical scale on which you can move up and down freely, but a measure of intent and psychology, just because a psychopath who would burn the world to cinders if he were free is locked up, does not make him any less evil.
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Jun 7, 2007 22:34
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edit: quote is not edit 
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Jun 7, 2007 22:35
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I don't remember any gate ever being destroyed in a forest fire. When was this? Also how many gates are there? Only 4, right?
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Jun 7, 2007 22:37
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