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Jerusalem posted:Flair is the biggest for me, that time period still feels recent to me but he looks "young" and strong and energetic. The funny thing being, when he was in WCW at the very end, I used to think of him as a washed up old man, but looking back he was in really good condition. Just think, in 2017 when he looks like a white Abdullah the Butcher, we will look back at how great he looked in 2009 on the Hulkamania tour
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Dec 24, 2009 08:44
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Jerusalem posted:THE CONSORTIUM.... WAS ME!
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Dec 24, 2009 09:07
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What year exactly did Flair's look fall off the cliff into "old man" territory? Was it the jump to HD that caused this? He looks great in 2001. With Evolution in 2004, he's looking good. Older, but not terrible. Then he just plummets quickly over the next few years, and looks like death when he came back to the Jericho build-up for Wrestlemania this year. Sure, he's been out of action since the previous Wrestlemania, but he looked pretty rugged then, too. Seriously, watch the consortium clip, then just 8 years later, look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPD489DZ4ow
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Dec 24, 2009 09:20
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AKA Driver posted:What year exactly did Flair's look fall off the cliff into "old man" territory? Was it the jump to HD that caused this? He looks great in 2001. With Evolution in 2004, he's looking good. Older, but not terrible. Then he just plummets quickly over the next few years, and looks like death when he came back to the Jericho build-up for Wrestlemania this year. Sure, he's been out of action since the previous Wrestlemania, but he looked pretty rugged then, too. poo poo, who knows exactly what did it? Maybe it was the stress of his divorces. Didn't he get divorced like twice within 4 years or something? Or if he was constantly going out with Orton and Batista in Evolution, that's gonna take a toll a lot quicker on a 55-year-old man than the 30-year-old Ric Flair in the 4 Horsemen. But it is a huge difference between Flair in 2001 and Flair in 2009.
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Dec 24, 2009 09:26
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Honestly the best thing about the inVasion was post-9/11 Kurt Angle. Can anybody find a video of the whole crowd stood up and did the Pledge of Allegiance with him?
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Dec 24, 2009 09:28
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Web Jew.0 posted:Honestly the best thing about the inVasion was post-9/11 Kurt Angle.
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Dec 24, 2009 09:31
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Jerusalem posted:That reminds me, Austin's severe paranoia over RVD having equal or greater crowd support than him was a loving fantastic little element of the Invasion and I was always confused as hell why we didn't get Austin vs RVD out of it. Then again, I also loved the "Tazz doesn't understand how to kiss up to Austin properly," bit. Austin/RVD would've been awesome and drawn one gently caress-off buyrate. It would have been a white-hole of heat. Pitting RVD against Austin is the only way I can think of to ensure Austin gets booed. Jerusalem posted:It means whatever the hell Ric Flair wants it to mean!
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Dec 24, 2009 10:47
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dusty udder smoker posted:That PPV was one of my favorite ones the WWF has ever put on. I'd kill for it on DVD. Survivor Series 2001? ...yeah, it is on DVD. However, like a lot of 2001 DVDs, it's hella expensive. It would probably be cheaper just to wait for that part of the anthology to come out, but they'd probably butcher it.
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Dec 24, 2009 16:04
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Jerusalem posted:That reminds me, Austin's severe paranoia over RVD having equal or greater crowd support than him was a loving fantastic little element of the Invasion and I was always confused as hell why we didn't get Austin vs RVD out of it. Then again, I also loved the "Tazz doesn't understand how to kiss up to Austin properly," bit. I also loved both angles. The only thing is that I'm pretty sure Austin yelling at Tazz for not kissing up to him properly was the origin of "What?" which is still going on all these years later to annoy all of us.
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Dec 24, 2009 16:24
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oldpainless posted:poo poo, who knows exactly what did it? Maybe it was the stress of his divorces. Didn't he get divorced like twice within 4 years or something? Or if he was constantly going out with Orton and Batista in Evolution, that's gonna take a toll a lot quicker on a 55-year-old man than the 30-year-old Ric Flair in the 4 Horsemen. But it is a huge difference between Flair in 2001 and Flair in 2009. Coming out with Orton and Batista kinda started emphasizing how old he was on it's own.
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Dec 24, 2009 16:43
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Deranged Hermit posted:Survivor Series 2001? ...yeah, it is on DVD. However, like a lot of 2001 DVDs, it's hella expensive. The extras of Survivor Series 2001 have both Heyman getting fired by Vince AND "THE CONSORTIUM...WOOO THE CONSORTIUM WAS ME!" 
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Dec 24, 2009 17:05
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Speaking of Flair, why is he the Nature Boy, and where did WOOOOO come from?
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Dec 24, 2009 17:10
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He mimicked 'Nature Boy' Buddy Rogers, I believe - but I'm not sure about the Woo, I reckon it was just part of his hyped-up promos that became iconic when catchphrases came to the fore...
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Dec 24, 2009 17:12
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Shadow225 posted:Speaking of Flair, why is he the Nature Boy, and where did WOOOOO come from? It's in one of the extras to his wwe collections. He attributed it to Jerry Lee Lewis' Great Balls of Fire as he was finishing a promo and had that song in his head and just goes WOO!
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Dec 24, 2009 18:44
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Well, let's ask the man himself (it's pretty much the Jerry Lee Lewis thing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdABlGoar9g Bonus JBL smoking a cigar and drinking a beer for really no apparent reason.
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Dec 24, 2009 20:06
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AKA Driver posted:Well, let's ask the man himself (it's pretty much the Jerry Lee Lewis thing): That is a wonderful video. I especially like JBL's "I've always wanted to do that" line. And just seeing how many people they get to do it. And Al Snow's face at the end is priceless.
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Dec 24, 2009 20:14
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battlemonk posted:That is a wonderful video. I especially like JBL's "I've always wanted to do that" line. And just seeing how many people they get to do it. And Al Snow's face at the end is priceless. That really is great. Brought a big smile to my face.
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Dec 24, 2009 21:57
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battlemonk posted:That is a wonderful video. I especially like JBL's "I've always wanted to do that" line. And just seeing how many people they get to do it. And Al Snow's face at the end is priceless. That was a sweet video. I think Goldust does the next best Woo! Also, it should become standard operating procedure that from now on, whenever a wrestler chops another across the chest, he should Woo! with the crowd.
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Dec 24, 2009 22:07
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AKA Driver posted:Well, let's ask the man himself (it's pretty much the Jerry Lee Lewis thing): Lance Storm's "WOO!" followed by him immediately turning serious after was fantastic.
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Dec 24, 2009 22:10
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Burrito posted:Lance Storm's "WOO!" followed by him immediately turning serious after was fantastic. Yes. Also, Ivory chopping Al Snow was adorable. I miss Ivory.
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Dec 25, 2009 07:05
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So, we talk periodically about match styles, the one that comes to mind being "Face in Peril". There's also obviously the "Squash" match. There have to be other styles, and since there are, are any others named like that, grouped in any way, or are they just sort of a more generic group of "face wins clean", "heel wins clean", "heel wins dirty", etc.? If you're feeling extra-helpful this holiday season, and you felt like listing some styles with match videos to illustrate, I'd be grateful.
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Dec 25, 2009 07:45
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battlemonk posted:So, we talk periodically about match styles, the one that comes to mind being "Face in Peril". There's also obviously the "Squash" match. There have to be other styles, and since there are, are any others named like that, grouped in any way, or are they just sort of a more generic group of "face wins clean", "heel wins clean", "heel wins dirty", etc.? Well, it sounds more like you are asking about match structure rather than style. Pretty much any match with a standard structure is going to have a "face in peril" since that will be the heat segment where the heel takes control of the match and works over the face. Realistically, every match outside a squash will use the same structure: Shine - Heat - Comeback - Finish. Longer matches will see a minor shine, minor heat, shine, heat etc. There are many styles, "King's Road" (The All Japan Style, pretty much dead today replaced by the NOAH Main Event Style of lots of head drops) "Strong Style" (Popularized by 1990s All Japan) "Main Event Style" (The WWE style of the Attitude era through today) "Memphis Style" (Used in Memphis in Lawler's hey day, lots of blood, brawling, heel antics and gently caress finishes to get the crowd back the next week.) and many others that you see like shoot style, lucha variants, European style etc. MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Dec 25, 2009 |
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Dec 25, 2009 07:51
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AKA Driver posted:What year exactly did Flair's look fall off the cliff into "old man" territory? Was it the jump to HD that caused this? He looks great in 2001. With Evolution in 2004, he's looking good. Older, but not terrible. Then he just plummets quickly over the next few years, and looks like death when he came back to the Jericho build-up for Wrestlemania this year. Sure, he's been out of action since the previous Wrestlemania, but he looked pretty rugged then, too. It's not "just" 8 years...that's almost a whole decade, which means a hell of a lot. Especially when you go from 52-60. Flair spent the next 8 years of his life working pretty much a full WWE road schedule, which he really shouldn't have, and it took its toll on his body. There's not really a year you can pinpoint, but I do remember him starting to look really haggard when I came back to watching wrestling in 2003 or 2004.
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Dec 25, 2009 08:24
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Pneub posted:Coming out with Orton and Batista kinda started emphasizing how old he was on it's own. Being called the best of the past didn't help much either. I loved how the woo video featured so many stagehands who probably just love wrestling and finally got to appear in something.
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Dec 25, 2009 08:34
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AKA Driver posted:Well, let's ask the man himself (it's pretty much the Jerry Lee Lewis thing): King and Goldust had the best WOOs, but Storm's and JR's were hilarious.
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Dec 25, 2009 08:52
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CM Junk posted:King and Goldust had the best WOOs, but Storm's and JR's were hilarious. What about the dude that Meowed?
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Dec 25, 2009 09:07
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MassRayPer posted:Well, it sounds more like you are asking about match structure rather than style. Pretty much any match with a standard structure is going to have a "face in peril" since that will be the heat segment where the heel takes control of the match and works over the face. Realistically, every match outside a squash will use the same structure: Shine - Heat - Comeback - Finish. Longer matches will see a minor shine, minor heat, shine, heat etc. That's exactly what I mean. I'm trying to build a sense, in my head, of how these various segments are put together, because as a stage combat director, that sort of thing is what I need to be able to put together more; as much as it is intuitive to an extent, wanting to draw the crowd in and show the struggle of two equal/unequal combatants, I guess what I'm looking for is a little more of a breakdown of exactly how the pros tend to put it together. quote:There are many styles, "King's Road" (The All Japan Style, pretty much dead today replaced by the NOAH Main Event Style of lots of head drops) "Strong Style" (Popularized by 1990s All Japan) "Main Event Style" (The WWE style of the Attitude era through today) "Memphis Style" (Used in Memphis in Lawler's hey day, lots of blood, brawling, heel antics and gently caress finishes to get the crowd back the next week.) and many others that you see like shoot style, lucha variants, European style etc. For the not WWE-style ones, does anyone feel like finding a particularly good example?
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Dec 25, 2009 09:31
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battlemonk posted:That's exactly what I mean. I'm trying to build a sense, in my head, of how these various segments are put together, because as a stage combat director, that sort of thing is what I need to be able to put together more; as much as it is intuitive to an extent, wanting to draw the crowd in and show the struggle of two equal/unequal combatants, I guess what I'm looking for is a little more of a breakdown of exactly how the pros tend to put it together. One of the most better later examples of Kings Road: Misawa vs Kobashi from January of 1997: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9FNCKVD6 This isn't the best example of Memphis, but it is from my favorite feud in Memphis history: Lawler vs Bockwinkel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu0k-4HOgfA from the legendary $500 Dollars a Punch Feud. Feud History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL3LJMQmKpA Bockwinkel worked mainly for the AWA and would come into Memphis often to defend the AWA title, but you get an idea of the face/heel structure of Memphis. There's probably a better example out there, probably in Austin Idol vs Savage or something like that but I can't think of the right match off the top of my head. Shoot Style: Sano vs Suzuki http://www.megaupload.com/?d=X81JN5UT from July of 91. Probably not the best example of strong style, but Hashimoto vs Regal for the IWGP title should be more accessible http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZLWWY8DN Lucharesu a fusion of lucha and Puro found mainly in Dragon Gate today: Magnum Tokyo, Dragon Kid & Ryo Saito vs CIMA, SUWA and Fuji vs Mochizuki, Kanda and Darkness Dragon http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BPK6YDMU from August of 2001. MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Dec 25, 2009 |
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Dec 25, 2009 09:46
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Kentucky Shark posted:It's not "just" 8 years...that's almost a whole decade, which means a hell of a lot. Especially when you go from 52-60. Flair spent the next 8 years of his life working pretty much a full WWE road schedule, which he really shouldn't have, and it took its toll on his body. There's not really a year you can pinpoint, but I do remember him starting to look really haggard when I came back to watching wrestling in 2003 or 2004.
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Dec 25, 2009 13:07
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MassRayPer posted:Probably not the best example of strong style, but Hashimoto vs Regal for the IWGP title should be more accessible http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZLWWY8DN Regal is a loving dick. And to me, that's a match which shows the difference between king's road and strong style, by favouring the big long match less, and being closed to MMA.
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Dec 25, 2009 13:33
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The best example for Memphis style that might help you is a WWF match between Shawn Michaels and Jeff Jarrett. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlYW8df_K1A part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnm9eAl76JE part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyfsXv6JCN0 part 3
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Dec 25, 2009 16:50
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Cool. Thanks guys.
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Dec 25, 2009 18:40
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Kentucky Shark posted:It's not "just" 8 years...that's almost a whole decade, which means a hell of a lot. Especially when you go from 52-60. Flair spent the next 8 years of his life working pretty much a full WWE road schedule, which he really shouldn't have, and it took its toll on his body. There's not really a year you can pinpoint, but I do remember him starting to look really haggard when I came back to watching wrestling in 2003 or 2004. I have to imagine that, coming from the era he did, there was probably a not-inconsiderable amount of substance abuse in his background.
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Dec 26, 2009 00:34
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How did Hardcore Bob Holly have the career that he did?
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Dec 26, 2009 23:29
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ColeM posted:How did Hardcore Bob Holly have the career that he did? He was willing to job, he looked decent doing it, he wasn't a bad wrestler by any means, just not particularly charismatic—he was solid and reliable and only sometimes was a total rear end in a top hat. Also probably didn't get paid too much either.
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Dec 26, 2009 23:33
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ColeM posted:How did Hardcore Bob Holly have the career that he did? He was pretty good* *Compared to Bob 'Sparkplug' Holly
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Dec 27, 2009 00:02
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battlemonk posted:He was willing to job, he looked decent doing it, he wasn't a bad wrestler by any means, just not particularly charismatic—he was solid and reliable and only sometimes was a total rear end in a top hat. And he was a name, so while beating him wasn't as impressive as beating, say, Triple H, it was more impressive than beating Funaki. Battlemonk hit it on the head. He was a reliable hand, jobbed pretty much without question, could be trusted to act as a ring general if he needed to and was around long enough that his name was worth at least something.
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Dec 27, 2009 00:25
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Were he to join the company now in his prime, he wouldn't last nearly as long. He just happened to join when the worst booker in history was having his only good ideas.
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Dec 27, 2009 00:32
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LividLiquid posted:Were he to join the company now in his prime, he wouldn't last nearly as long. He just happened to join when the worst booker in history was having his only good ideas. I don't know about that. Holly was never the subject of good booking (minus the Holly Family, which was pretty hilarious), but he lasted pretty damned long. He's the shittier 90s equivalent of what Finlay is now.
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Dec 27, 2009 00:35
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To Holly's (and WWE's) credit, as silly as it was to have him compete with Lesnar for the WWE title, 13-year-old me took him pretty seriously and thought he made a pretty credible run at the title.
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Dec 27, 2009 00:38
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