|
Flameingblack posted:Punk and Randy are the two "Adult" guys in the company, that appeal to the older audience. It makes sense that they had so much chemistry. I still expected much more out of that feud. Randy Orton also looks like he stars in Adult Entertainment that caters to a certain community
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 16:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 06:02 |
|
|
DEAR RICHARD posted:Randy Orton also looks like he stars in Adult Entertainment that caters to a certain community Wrestling fans?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 16:38
|
|
Rarity posted:^^^Orton wrestles the exact same match with every single person. And it's ok, I guess. I can count on one hand the number of Orton matches I've seen that go beyond that into good.
|
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 16:39
|
|
|
When you're one of the two most popular, over wrestlers with some of the highest merch sales, why would you take risks at all? Sometimes, fans just don't understand the business side of wrestling.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 16:44
|
|
|
Flameingblack posted:When you're one of the two most popular, over wrestlers with some of the highest merch sales, why would you take risks at all? Sometimes, fans just don't understand the business side of wrestling. You can have awesome matches without bumping all over the place if you know how to work. Randy's just boring.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 16:46
|
|
|
CombineThresher posted:You can have awesome matches without bumping all over the place if you know how to work. Randy's just boring. He's over enough with the fans that he doesn't need to take the risk, or even impress anyone else. I don't enjoy watching him wrestle, but then again; I don't watch the WWE to be impressed by good wrestlers.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 16:49
|
|
|
DEAR RICHARD posted:Randy Orton also looks like he stars in Adult Entertainment that caters to a certain community 
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 17:13
|
|
|
Orton was a great heel because his gimmick was that he was a vicious monster that would do anything to win. He wasn't invulnerable but he could go toe-to-toe with the top wrestlers and was willing to go that extra mile to win, whether it was terrorizing someone's family or committing extreme acts of violence. He was good at selling without making himself look weak, he had underlings to help him cheat so he could sneak wins without just overpowering his opponent, and he was overall a generally compelling character. As a face he's just a superman that throws tantrums in the ring and no-sells at the end of the match. For whatever reason, WWE faces just ignore their injuries and go through the motions of their moves of doom, which is boring as all hell. Face Orton has paint-by-numbers matches and that boring approach is killing his matches (for smarks anyway). He's popular, and he sells merch, but he no longer entertains me.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 17:20
|
|
|
Literally the only reason people don't like Christian/Orton is because Orton won. But people can't just admit that familiarity breeds contempt, it has to become "Orton is boring and uncharismatic, and has been for years and years!" while he has had the crowd eating out of his hand for years. Or better yet, "Orton has slowed down in the ring!" which really marks someone out as being unable to remember a match from before 2010. Now on top of everything else he has never had a good match with anyone but Chris Benoit (his '04 Summerslam match is actually on the low end of his good matches, sorry). He has a really good mind for pacing, I think the last time I saw him screw up a move was like 2003, he's got the best physique in the company, he's had at least one great match with literally everyone he's ever worked with (usually a lot more than one), and he's outstandingly physical in the ring, which counts for something in an era of side headlocks and hammerlocks. Is he naturally better at being a heel? Yes. So is basically everyone in WWE. Even if you don't like him, he's still a million times better than Cena, who it has inexplicably become less cool to hate even though he's as awful as ever, if not moreso since he has stopped kayfabe caring about anything.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 17:27
|
|
|
Beef Jerky Robot posted:Still funny and will never not be funny.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 17:38
|
|
|
Mr. Carlisle posted:That being said it's TNA and that isn't going to happen. It'll be pushed forward for about two weeks and then Hogan will be limping around the ring beating up on a bloody Ric Flair in the main event for 20 minutes on PPV. At the house show I was at, Anderson was talking about that "company up north" that has the same five guys in the main event ALL THE TIME! He had just gotten done wrestling Jeff Jarrett.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 18:33
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:Even if you don't like him, he's still a million times better than Cena, who it has inexplicably become less cool to hate even though he's as awful as ever, if not moreso since he has stopped kayfabe caring about anything. Complaints on Cena are more specific and are 90% the way he's booked (not his fault) and his 5 moves of doom (Orton is also very guilty of this). Aside from that Cena can actually be entertaining/funny from time to time even if you dislike him, is genuinely a very nice guy, and even though he doesn't sell well he's obviously enthusiastic when he performs in the ring. Orton on the other hand doesn't try to be entertaining at all, constantly acts/looks bored to be there, is oppressively robotic in his in-ring performance, and by all accounts that have found their way into the press/online he seems like a pretty huge douche bag in real life. He was never "great" in the ring, what got him over was the unbelievably lovely things he would do/say to get people to agree to fight him. He was better at that than pretty much everyone in the company for years, and they cut that out of him and now there's nothing to really be wowed by.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 18:34
|
|
|
LordPants posted:This is my point, all of which are guys that have been in the company for yonks. I'm talking about guys whom Vince McMahon has said "That guy! He's a champ, right there!" and then made him world champion. You mean like he did with Kurt Angle? Angle's televised debut was November of 1999. Angle won his first world title in October of 2000. If you don't consider that to be Vince pointing at him and saying "That guy! He's a champ, right there!" then I don't know what to tell you.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 18:43
|
|
|
What caused MVP to go from one of the hottest superstars in the WWE to essentially a joke before he finally got future endeavored? I am not saying MVP was ever going to main event but I could of seen him as a lifelong Upper Midcarder that gets a world title reign or two as a thank you for your years of service. Sure MVP wasn't the most technical wrestler but he could put on decent to good matches on a regular basis. He was a great promo as a heel and acceptable as a face. So what happened? How is MVP doing in Japan?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 18:56
|
|
|
A good chunk of his de-pushing seemed to come as a result of attitude. He was a jerk to the guy in charge of collecting samples for the Wellness testing, which won him no favors. Instead of shutting up, putting his head down and letting the heat blow over, he was constantly doing interview or making Twitter posts bitching about his position in the company. That, and he's a little bit older.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 18:58
|
|
|
Chunky Delight posted:What caused MVP to go from one of the hottest superstars in the WWE to essentially a joke before he finally got future endeavored? Don't know about Japan, but from what I understand it was basically the same deal as Shelton: He realized he wasn't getting pushed enough and started to not care outside of his own matches, they didn't like his attitude backstage and it all kinda spun out from there.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:00
|
|
|
Chunky Delight posted:What caused MVP to go from one of the hottest superstars in the WWE to essentially a joke before he finally got future endeavored? He talked poo poo to the guy giving him a piss test, so they gave him a losing streak. Also he didn't get fired, he asked for his release because he wanted to work in Japan because that was always his dream. If you want to know more, check out Dave Lagana's "I Want Wrestling" podcast. He interviews him for almost 2 hours.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:01
|
|
|
Also they took away his inflatable tunnel and the countdown, which killed his chances of ever getting over in the main event, but not really, but kinda according to wrestlehut.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:04
|
|
|
MVP is, as of this weekend, the first-ever IWGP Intercontinental Champion. So he's got that going for him.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:05
|
|
|
LightsGameraAction posted:Complaints on Cena are more specific and are 90% the way he's booked (not his fault) and his 5 moves of doom (Orton is also very guilty of this). Aside from that Cena can actually be entertaining/funny from time to time even if you dislike him, is genuinely a very nice guy, and even though he doesn't sell well he's obviously enthusiastic when he performs in the ring. Cena is actually awful at all aspects of wrestling and the "five moves of doom" (which literally every wrestler ever does) has nothing to do with it. He gets terrible reactions, partially because they have booked him horribly for years and partially because his character is a huge dweeb. He literally does not care if he wins or loses and I'm not sure he's successfully sold a feud in his entire career. He is generally awful at improvising or pacing a match. Cena in control of a match is usually spot/pin/spot/pin, which led to his incredibly over-rated match with HBK in Britain. If he is not in there with a ring general or someone who can come up with a good match plan, the match itself often stinks in a way that doesn't happen with a really great wrestler (i.e. someone who can put something good or at least watchable together with anybody). As an example: Miz/Cena was the worst Mania main event in many years because someone came up with the idea that Cena should sell Miz's underwhelming brawling as Undertaker soupbones and then go into spot/pin one-offs, as well as have Miz get pinned with the ref's back turned a couple of times AND THEN kick out of an AA. It was like the diametric opposite of what would be entertaining and logical and is incredibly awful when we're talking about a guy who has been wrestling main events for six years. quote:Orton on the other hand doesn't try to be entertaining at all, constantly acts/looks bored to be there, is oppressively robotic in his in-ring performance "Randy Orton is bad because I buy his gimmick" quote:and by all accounts that have found their way into the press/online he seems like a pretty huge douche bag in real life. He's BFFs with John Cena and there really hasn't been anything negative reported on him in about five years. Ken Anderson doesn't like him. That's about it. quote:He was never "great" in the ring, what got him over was the unbelievably lovely things he would do/say to get people to agree to fight him. He was better at that than pretty much everyone in the company for years, and they cut that out of him and now there's nothing to really be wowed by. Most of his early career is him getting over on ringwork, the RKO, and the pose. He was a terrible promo for much of that time, especially as a face.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:07
|
|
|
THE GAYEST POSTER posted:At the house show I was at, Anderson was talking about that "company up north" that has the same five guys in the main event ALL THE TIME! Oh god not the north vs south poo poo again.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:08
|
|
|
THE GAYEST POSTER posted:At the house show I was at, Anderson was talking about that "company up north" that has the same five guys in the main event ALL THE TIME! As much as I hate TNA, and I still do hate them, they DO have more fresh faces (for their company anyway) in the main event than WWE does. Anderson only became a main eventer this year, RVD is still only in his second year in TNA, Sting has been gone for a while now, and Jarrett/Angle haven't really been involved with the titles or the top spot on PPVs. Too bad their belts and show means absolutely nothing and none of these guys are draws.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:15
|
|
|
ADRIEN GRODYS FIFE posted:As much as I hate TNA, and I still do hate them, they DO have more fresh faces (for their company anyway) in the main event than WWE does. Anderson only became a main eventer this year, RVD is still only in his second year in TNA, Sting has been gone for a while now, and Jarrett/Angle haven't really been involved with the titles or the top spot on PPVs. Too bad their belts and show means absolutely nothing and none of these guys are draws. Calling Sting (let alone RVD) a fresh face would be a little much even if Sting hadn't been main eventing in TNA for the last five years.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:40
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:Calling Sting (let alone RVD) a fresh face would be a little much even if Sting hadn't been main eventing in TNA for the last five years. Way to not read my post bro.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:53
|
|
|
Does it really count as a main event scene being fresh if the people in it went stale in other companies?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:56
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:"Randy Orton is bad because I buy his gimmick" "Randy Orton is boring because he's supposed to be boring." Jesus Christ, you've literally replaced your multi-quote advocacy of Triple H with multi-quote advocacy of Orton, and deflected the criticism that he works better as a heel with "so does everyone else." I don't care if he's getting mega-pops (though they certainly aren't what they used to be): His promos and his in-ring work are sleep-inducing.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 19:56
|
|
|
ADRIEN GRODYS FIFE posted:Way to not read my post bro. Sting retained the title yesterday bro.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:04
|
|
Timby posted:His promos and his in-ring work are sleep-inducing. "Normal" wrestling fans eat it up. Maybe it's time to admit that WWE doesn't cater to smarks.
|
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:14
|
|
|
Random question: does anyone have a list of the superstars that WH2K ranked for how good they were over the past ~20 years or so? (edit: nvm I found it)
CVagts fucked around with this message at 21:03 on May 16, 2011 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:17
|
|
|
Changing topics I'm interested in the rumours we're see more legends as managers in the WWE This made me think - who are the better managers in wrestling - men or women?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:20
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:He's BFFs with John Cena and there really hasn't been anything negative reported on him in about five years. Very true, in fact Orton's one of the few people in the locker room, besides Cena, who is nice to the lower card/uncontracted guys. And plenty of people here think Cena's ring work and booking are terrible, so get down off your spergbox and take a deep breath or two.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:20
|
|
|
Timby posted:"Randy Orton is boring because he's supposed to be boring." The Randy Orton character is kind of a lunatic with emotional problems who basically does a Clint Eastwood face when he's not wrestling. Nothing has really changed about this fundamental gimmick since 2007 except that he mugs for the crowd a little more. In the ring he's actually doing far more than when he was a heel, because his heel character was designed to bore you and set up the hot finish. "ANOTHER HEADLOCK RANDY?" is not from 2010. I'll just re-iterate that this is what his detractors want him to back to apparently when they say he is "boring now." Rear headlocks and a million Garvin stomps are apparently fascinating. I'll mark that one down. "He looks bored in the ring" is possibly the biggest WHOOSH comment I've ever read about him. Like, how does he change this? By smiling and wiggling his arms more? Maybe wearing a ballcap to the ring and waving it around? Maybe he should hug John Cena more? Having a manic, frothing episode in the middle of the ring (oh wait!). Do you even know what it is you are asking him to do? WWE heels are generally more fun to watch than babyfaces because heels get to do whatever and often have control over the match. What it always boils down to is that he wins and smarks hate babyfaces who win. Otherwise your argument makes not a lick of loving sense.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:28
|
|
|
Wojtek posted:To most smarks, yes. I'm afraid ... that your post ... has missed ... the mark. (It's not smarky to hate robotic promos that go nowhere, and to not be a fan of robotic matches that tell no story whatsoever.)
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:29
|
|
|
Grant DaNasty posted:He talked poo poo to the guy giving him a piss test, so they gave him a losing streak. Also he didn't get fired, he asked for his release because he wanted to work in Japan because that was always his dream. They also gave him the losing streak in order to get fan sympathy for him and turn him face with the idea of giving him a big push (I believe) out of it. Except they forgot about that last part and just turned him into another midcard goof and one of Mark Henry's revolving door of tag team partners.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:42
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:
Pre-07 Orton (back when he was still a cocky douche) was way more emotive and fun to watch. He'd taunt people constantly and genuinely act surprised when an opponent caught him off guard, and he would sell someone trying to lock their submission in on him like death. Voices Randy Orton basically stopped all that, but at least replaced it with him going completely psycho on people. Face-voices Randy Orton is pretty much a generic tough-guy babyface with the commentators talking about how insane and dangerous he is while constantly only goes after heels and hugs John Cena.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:48
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:In the ring he's actually doing far more than when he was a heel, because his heel character was designed to bore you and set up the hot finish. "ANOTHER HEADLOCK RANDY?" is not from 2010. I'll just re-iterate that this is what his detractors want him to back to apparently when they say he is "boring now." Rear headlocks and a million Garvin stomps are apparently fascinating. I'll mark that one down. Orton is now a bland unbeatable mediocre wrestler, instead of a psychopathic mastermind mediocre wrestler. The big change in-ring is that he does a powerslam, an angle slam, and no-sells his opponents offense as soon as he activates Hogan Mode. As a heel he was one of the few that could take out a top face. As a face he is basically unbeatable which is boring as gently caress, far more boring than using a headlock in fact. A huge part of this is admittedly about his opponents - when heel Orton was loving with HHH's family or Cena's family, I was happy because those two are invincible superfaces and now they suddenly became vulnerable. Now he's destroying people that are significantly less dominant, he's doing the aforementioned "baby wants his bottle" ground pounding, and he comes across like a jackass. At this point the only pleasure I get is the RKO out of nowhere, and you could give that to David stupid Otunga and I'd still eat it up.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:49
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:
Many years? It hasn't been that many years since Orton and HHH stunk up the main event with a bafflingly dull and awful main event that seemingly showed no grasp of wrestling psychology from either man.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:58
|
|
|
Manwithastick posted:Changing topics I'm interested in the rumours we're see more legends as managers in the WWE Men generally, because most women in wrestling are usually there for the T&A factor, when a manager's strength is supposed to be generating heat via promos for a guy or team who aren't so good at that themselves. Now, Sherri Martel and Tammy Sytch managed to cross over and were great managers in their own right (and more recently, Vickie's been used as a real manager), but generally women are used as the arm candy valet.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 20:59
|
|
|
MassRayPer posted:Many years? It hasn't been that many years since Orton and HHH stunk up the main event with a bafflingly dull and awful main event that seemingly showed no grasp of wrestling psychology from either man. I would argue that Miz/Cena was actually worse than that by several orders of magnitude, although both were bad. Miz/Cena made me unexcited to see The Rock. I was bored by the loving Rock on account of that shittastic match. Generally what I'm starting to get out of these threads is that Wrestlehut (myself included) should not really watch WWE if they want to really enjoy wrestling, but many would argue that that's been the case for many, many years.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 21:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 06:02 |
|
Timby posted:I'm afraid ... that your post ... has missed ... the mark. I'll come out and say it: I like Randy Orton's character. Sorry you find it dull. This is like watching DBZ and complaining that you hate yellow spikey hair.
|
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 21:07
|
|