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Hemp Knight posted:Plus while the nights watch is sworn to be neutral in events of the 7 kingdoms, does that still apply if they're directly threatened first? Technically the Night's Watch wasn't threatened. Jon gave up all family upon saying his vows. He can't go running off to save them, and it's not a tangible threat unless there is an army actually marching on the Wall. Dude can write all the angry letters he wants, the Night's Watch has a sworn duty to defend the Wall. Anal Volcano posted:I like the idea that the maesters are an order that just wants to end magic once and for all, and do so by running cities and stamping out non-Seven religions. Have we seen any proof that they are actively trying to stamp out any religion? Hollis posted:I kind of got the feeling that greyscale plague may be the answer to the others.. like good zombies and bad zombies. This is stupid.
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Aug 12, 2011 04:17
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gently caress oaths, Jaime Lannister style. Jon was too stupid to pull it off. Two hours of planning my rear end.
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Aug 12, 2011 04:24
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quote:GRRM posted: Well then I want puffy, reddened vaginas, erect nipples and reddened chests and nose/mouth areas. Also gently caress off, Martin, your last book was shite and your editor is colossally unworthy of the name.
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Aug 12, 2011 04:56
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Habibi posted:Yeah, but the problem is that the other possible culprits are also all pretty unlikely - and that includes Ramsay. Why is Ramsay unlikely? Long rear end loving post incoming, apologies, He's shown that he's capable of being deceiving and, in fact, there's a scene in the book where he lies in a letter (when he sends Reek in with his 'peace offer.') People (a couple of people earlier in the thread, but also online elsewhere) seem to be of the mindset that the letter either has to be completely false or completely true and that the author's identity is dependent on whether the contents are true or false. I don't think that the letter is being entirely truthful or entirely false. I also think Ramsay wrote the letter. Mance writing the letter doesn't make any sense. If he was writing it under the guise of Ramsay, it assumes that Mance managed to remain undetected, which presumes that Ramsay (and potentially) the rest of the Boltons are indisposed. If Ramsay is still in control of Winterfell, sending a raven to the Wall with a letter that will almost certainly provoke a reaction from Jon is a huge gamble, reveals too many details to prying eyes and risks blowing his cover if any sort of response via raven is sent back. People are making a big deal of no signet ring on the letter's seal. Not a big deal, as again, earlier in the book, it is established that the Boltons use pink wax as their calling card, not necessarily a signet ring. More to the point, I don't believe Ramsay has a ring, so the presence or absence of one isn't a deal breaker. The letter covers several things, - The defeat of Stannis and his obtaining his magical sword - The capture of Mance - The demand that Jon return Reek and Jeyne Pool - That Jon give up Mance's wife and child Again, Ramsay has shown to be dishonest and has lied about the deaths of important individuals before, most notably with the Stark children. The claim that Stannis has been defeated and Ramsay has claimed his sword is dubious, since we're shown in other parts of the novel that there's a glimmer of hope for Stannis when Tycho and Asha's Iron Men show up. To setup what should be a pivotal scene in Winds of Winter and have it and the subsequent battle all happen offscreen doesn't seem likely. It's possible that the Boltons managed to beat back Stannis' host, maybe even wounding Stannis, but killing him and smashing his host? I'm incredibly skeptical. What we don't see much of is Abel/Mance. I don't have the book handy, but my recollection is that the chapters leading up to the escape from Winterfell exclusively deal with the spearwives and Theon. Mance is mentioned, but his presence isn't shown. His total absence is a nice way for GRRM to avoid any weird plotholes, timing issues or painting himself into a corner. This seems to indicate that something has happened to Mance and, based on the fact that the letter makes a big deal out of mentioning Mance without showing his ultimate fate, I think it's fair to surmise that he, or the remaining spearwives, have been captured and are being tortured. Mance/the spearwives capture would also allow for the explanation as to how the writer of the letter managed to hear about all of this. It would also explain how the writer knows of Stannis' magic sword. I'm fairly certain that Stannis made a big show of waving his magic sword around (more specifically, I think there's some attention given to it in the scene where Stannis passes his sentence on RattleMance) so it's not exactly a big secret. The return of Reek is important to only one person and one person only: Ramsay. Every other character has nothing but contempt for Theon and couldn't be arsed to piss on him were he on fire. That such a huge amount of importance is placed on Reek's safe return is another huge clue that Ramsay is the letter writer and is becoming even more unhinged/unstable than usual. Jeyne's importance should be clear to everyone, but she is only important to the Boltons and their designs. Mance's entire mission was to free 'Arya' and return with her. Why would he write a letter asking for the person he was sent to rescue be sent back into the lion's den? If the writer was a non-Bolton and was a Stark sympathizer, there's again no reason to covertly write a letter demanding for her return when she'd be perfectly safe in Stannis' camp (or elsewhere.) The demand that Mance's child and wife be sent to the letter writer is another strong indicator that Ramsay is the one who penned the letter. Someone mentioned the perceived importance of holding the 'King Beyond The Wall', but I think that Ramsay's reasons are little more base. He simply wants to break Mance and exact some revenge on him. Mance stole his wife and 'pet', so Ramsay is going to do horrible things to his wife and child. Over and over again, we're shown that Ramsay is a sociopathic rear end in a top hat, so this revenge fantasy being written to Jon Snow fits perfectly within the framework of his character. Mance/the spearwives being captured and interrogated would also result in this information being given up, especially given the ultimate fate of the spearwives indicated in the letter. So basically, I believe that Ramsay has captured Mance, learnt as much as he could from him and his conspirators, and is now trying to better his position, either by knowing he's hosed or by having gone into full on psychotic mode. It's possible that some sort of internal power struggle erupted in Winterfell between Ramsay and Roose and Ramsay wrested control away from his father...especially since Roose makes such a big deal about keeping Ramsay's more disgusting activities on the downlow. Ramsay is either hosed and knows it, so his letter is a desperate attempt to get some sort of bargaining power, or he is in a deluded position of superiority, figuring that he once was outgunned and hosed at Winterfell and got out okay, so he could do so a second time. The letter is a mix of bullshit and truth.
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Aug 12, 2011 05:07
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Perdido posted:The letter is a mix of bullshit and truth. I'm of the same mind. I really didn't see anything about the letter to suggest that it's some forgery from another party. The fact is Ramsay is a lying, deceptive bastard. Is Stannis really dead? Probably not. Does it serve Ramsay's ends to make others believe it? Absolutely. Also, I'm apt to believe (or just want to, anyway) that Ramsay may not have Mance, but has gleaned his identity from one of the spear-wives. All the more reason to have his wife and child to lure him out of hiding or, as you say, just to ruin his life. e: Also, as a TOTAL aside, I think it would just be sick as hell if they had a couple of Tormund POV chapters in the next book. I like that dude. Dog Toggle Switch fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Aug 12, 2011 |
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Aug 12, 2011 05:38
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Hollis posted:Out of all the characters in the book I thought Ramsay was the worst written. It's like every Theon chapter is " Ramsay and the horrible things he does to people" . It really was just completely way over the top... Did you miss the Uday Hussian links from a few pages back, or have read about guys like Vlad the Impaler? People like Ramsey may not be common in history, but compared to a number of historical and current people with unchecked power he is very believable.
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Aug 12, 2011 05:39
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Dog Toggle Switch posted:Also, as a TOTAL aside, I think it would just be sick as hell if they had a couple of Tormund POV chapters in the next book. I like that dude.
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Aug 12, 2011 05:47
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Thoguh posted:Did you miss the Uday Hussian links from a few pages back, or have read about guys like Vlad the Impaler? People like Ramsey may not be common in history, but compared to a number of historical and current people with unchecked power he is very believable. I'm not really hung up on Ramsay as a character, but I can see how some people could be put off by him. I mean, the series is punctuated by countless assholes and self-serving pricks, but Ramsay is almost a caricature of a villain , twirling his moustache and callously torturing and killing without any real motivation. I think it's just such a stark contrast to other characters who, although complete fuckers by any right, at least have motives or past history that spur them to committing evil acts. I don't really mind it though. As a nerd cross-reference, Ramsay basically reminds me of Kefka from FF6. And that's all right. Quantify! posted:Make Tormund the Lord Commander. I wouldn't mind if Jon Snow was really dead if this happened. Why not, The Night's Watch Oath doesn't really say anything against banging bears, right? Dog Toggle Switch fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Aug 12, 2011 |
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Aug 12, 2011 05:51
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I shall father no cubs
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Aug 12, 2011 06:32
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Dog Toggle Switch posted:I'm not really hung up on Ramsay as a character, but I can see how some people could be put off by him. I mean, the series is punctuated by countless assholes and self-serving pricks, but Ramsay is almost a caricature of a villain , twirling his moustache and callously torturing and killing without any real motivation. Notes from Underground posted:Both the author of these Notes and the Notes themselves are, of course, fictional. Nevertheless, such persons as the composer of these Notes not only exist in our society, but indeed must exist, given the circumstances under which our society has generally been formed. I don't think it's much of a stretch from raping a woman to forcing a woman to gently caress dogs, the only thing that keeps every rapist from acting on these fantasies is their inability to carry them out. Psychotic people who have the means and self-control to enact elaborate scenarios can be quite inventive with their tortures. It's something they enjoy, why would they not be? King Aerys did just as much hosed up poo poo as Ramsay. Claw marks on his wife's breasts, cooking people alive in their armor... Ramsay is hardly the only psychotic character we've been exposed to, just the one who has had the most page time.
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Aug 12, 2011 06:48
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I also like the character of Ramsay for what he indicates about Roose. Roose has made an effort to downplay some of Ramsay's more outrageous poo poo, but he's made absolutely no effort to control or curb his behavior. He doesn't really care about any of the suffering his lunatic bastard has inflicted on people.
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Aug 12, 2011 07:03
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Well, he gets away with it. I'm pretty sure Roose wants an heir that can, at least, get away with it.
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Aug 12, 2011 07:19
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Quantify! posted:King Aerys did just as much hosed up poo poo as Ramsay. Claw marks on his wife's breasts, cooking people alive in their armor... Ramsay is hardly the only psychotic character we've been exposed to, just the one who has had the most page time. You make a perfectly valid point, but at least in Aerys there was the justification of generations of inbreeding leading to him just being plain old crazy. I think there's a line in the book that said something like, "Every time a Targaryan is born, the Gods would flip a coin to see if they're great or mad" Granted, being an out and out lunatic isn't the best characterization, but at least it does provide a justification for his actions. Basically, I think it'd just be more interesting if they at least showed something of Ramsay's character or past to give some weight to his actions. As it stands, dudes just a dick.
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Aug 12, 2011 07:58
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Dog Toggle Switch posted:You make a perfectly valid point, but at least in Aerys there was the justification of generations of inbreeding leading to him just being plain old crazy. I think there's a line in the book that said something like, "Every time a Targaryan is born, the Gods would flip a coin to see if they're great or mad" I mean I just don't know what people want. Do we really need justification for Ramsay being a monster? It's established early on that the Boltons are quite generally monstrous, and the Starks could be when they were Kings in the North.
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Aug 12, 2011 08:02
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Quantify! posted:I mean I just don't know what people want. Not to read books four and five aka two thousand pages of treading water. There is nothing in this universe that needs two thousand pages of set up. Will there be two thousand pages of pay off? gently caress no.
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Aug 12, 2011 08:07
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As somebody pointed out way back in the thread, Jon dying and then being resurrected (rebirth) fits the Azor Ahai prophecy. Prophecy: When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Jon being Azor Ahai: His wounds smoke while Bowen Marsh cries (salt) and Ser Patrek's star laden heraldry is in the air above (bloody from his death). Melisandre looked into her fires for Azor Ahai and saw only Snow. Jon had a dream fighting others with a red sword burning in his hand. If Melisandre resurrects him and subsequently realizes the prophecy is being fulfilled she could even have Jon kill her with his sword and create another Lightbringer. The original was formed when Azor Ahai did the same to his wife. Edit: Does anybody know what the connection between the Azor Ahai prophecy and the Targeryens are? Besides Melisandre believing it to be Stannis, everyone else seems to automatically assume it is one Targeryen or another. D-Pad fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Aug 12, 2011 |
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Aug 12, 2011 08:27
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If gurm dies before another book is published I am considering it canon that Victarion Greyjoy is AA reborn and will consider him to have saved the day with his fleet of vikings (and davos seaworth). I might do this anyways, depending on how the series goes.
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Aug 12, 2011 08:42
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D-Pad posted:Edit: Does anybody know what the connection between the Azor Ahai prophecy and the Targeryens are? Besides Melisandre believing it to be Stannis, everyone else seems to automatically assume it is one Targeryen or another. Jon lacks dragons. Dany has dragons. The prophecy fits her really well. She reenacts the whole "try three times to make lightbringer" thing with her eggs. Her eggs resembled stone. She sacrifices the one she loves. Jon would have to sacrifice Ghost I guess. He doesn't love Melisandre. It's Dany.
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Aug 12, 2011 09:15
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Quantify! posted:It's Dany. The dragon has three heads. That gets repeated a hundred times, it has to be meaningful.
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Aug 12, 2011 09:26
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Rosscifer posted:The dragon has three heads. That gets repeated a hundred times, it has to be meaningful. One is Jon Snow because he's the only living Targaryen before we found out about Aegon. The other is not Aegon because it's so obvious he'll die. The other is probably Tyrion because he is cool. The pig-riding scenes foreshadow how he will ride a dragon.
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Aug 12, 2011 09:32
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The speed at which Victarion progresses across the narrow sea and captures ships/changes himself ( giving R'hollor sacrifices and super strong arm ) is a refreshing contrast to Danys or jons chapters. Not to mention he is just a badass.
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Aug 12, 2011 09:32
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"Frey Pie" to the tune of "American Pie". Oh my my Let's eat some Frey pie You may bite something squishy But that's just a Frey eye Them good old Freys got baked into a pie Hey Mance sing a song about pies Let's all sing a song about pies Feel free to add more words
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Aug 12, 2011 10:33
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Quantify! posted:"when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." I'm just going to keep daydreaming that the people in Mereen manage to kill one of the dragons. Melisandre resurrects Jon, who also raises the dead (stone) dragon. Dead Jon Snow riding a dead dragon leading an army of Others and wights against Ramsey 
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Aug 12, 2011 12:54
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I really don't want to hear some childhood sob story for every loving sick person in the series. There are some people it enhances, like the Hound which is great. Some people are just crazy assholes though.
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Aug 12, 2011 14:00
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Call me crazy, but I think Patchface is important. I love all his crazy babblings about the underwater world. If Mel's right about the world being divided between R'hllor and the Great Other, the other could just be the Ironborn's Kraken. The underwater world is cold and dark and the Great Other is the lord of cold and darkness. Melisandre’s face darkened. “That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.”
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Aug 12, 2011 14:05
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ineptmule posted:Don't forget that Mance/Abel had been hanging around Winterfell for a while, he probably picked up the whole Reek thing pretty quickly. Yeah that is what I was saying, but my point was how would Jon know or care who Reek was in order for it to convince him it was Ramsay. Unless Mance had reason to suspect someone from Winterfell escaped and made it to the wall. But how ridiculous would it be if someone was like "Yeah, that can't be Ramsay, he doesn't even mention Reek in that letter! Usually he won't shut up about that guy!"
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Aug 12, 2011 14:55
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Just a weird thought, but is there a possibility that Snow planned to fake his assassination for some reason, complete with non-lethal superficial wounds? It's been a bit since I've read it (which means I've forgotten everything), and I am not sure what motivations he could have for doing it, but it could possibly be an interesting "death/resurrection" without needing another magical occurrence. Also, I really hope that the three dragons end up in three different hands. That would make for a lot of good tension and power struggles, and it would be interesting to see how they get trained differently.
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Aug 12, 2011 15:03
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Rosscifer posted:Call me crazy, but I think Patchface is important. I love all his crazy babblings about the underwater world. If Mel's right about the world being divided between R'hllor and the Great Other, the other could just be the Ironborn's Kraken. The underwater world is cold and dark and the Great Other is the lord of cold and darkness. Well, at least the drowned got is part of it somehow. But so far the drowned god and Rh'llor seem to make a pretty good tag team. 
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Aug 12, 2011 18:35
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Cool Ranch posted:Just a weird thought, but is there a possibility that Snow planned to fake his Except that we see the attack through Jon's eyes, and he is genuinely surprised when his brothers turn on him. Also, he doesn't even "feel" the fourth knife wound, which strongly suggests he was on his way to dying at that point.
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Aug 12, 2011 18:49
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Unzip and Attack posted:Also, he doesn't even "feel" the fourth knife wound, which strongly suggests he was on his way to dying at that point. Because it's a retractable stage dagger. 
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Aug 12, 2011 19:06
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Jon also doesn't realize he was drugged.
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Aug 12, 2011 19:23
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Unzip and Attack posted:Except that we see the attack through Jon's eyes, and he is genuinely surprised when his brothers turn on him. Also, he doesn't even "feel" the fourth knife wound, which strongly suggests he was on his way to dying at that point. Or just to blacking out. Or because he was already warging into Ghost.
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Aug 12, 2011 19:44
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Or because his mind, which had been sent into the wildling so he could impersonate himself, was letting go of the wildling's body as he died.
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Aug 12, 2011 19:45
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Or because it was all a dream the entire time. Everything. All of it.
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Aug 12, 2011 19:53
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Jon Snow woke up and walked downstairs. "What's for breakfast, mom?" "Well I've hollowed out a trencher for you" Lyanna Stark replied. "W-what?" Jon asked shocked. "WAKE UP JON SNOW, YOU ARE STILL DREAMING." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXLDv-fUINM
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Aug 12, 2011 19:55
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Quantify! posted:It's established early on that the Boltons are quite generally monstrous, and the Starks could be when they were Kings in the North. At least it seems like Domeric Bolton was a pretty nice and well-adjusted dude before he died I guess. Kainser fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Aug 12, 2011 |
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Aug 12, 2011 20:29
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Guy A. Person posted:Yeah that is what I was saying, but my point was how would Jon know or care who Reek was in order for it to convince him it was Ramsay. Unless Mance had reason to suspect someone from Winterfell escaped and made it to the wall. But how ridiculous would it be if someone was like "Yeah, that can't be Ramsay, he doesn't even mention Reek in that letter! Usually he won't shut up about that guy!" I don't think Jon needed convincing it was Ramsay's letter. He just assumed it was. I like to think Ramsay is just freaking out and has tortured a spearwife/Mance. Mance sending the letter is dumb and doesn't make much sense. I like Mance too but the dude's in some trouble right now, not setting up some masterstroke.
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Aug 12, 2011 20:49
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I am also pretty sure that John is Azor Ahai ; the dragons out of stone can be metaphorical and most certainly is. BTW Dragons out of Stone could refer to Greyscale.
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Aug 12, 2011 21:03
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Shireen Baratheon is a secret Targ. vvv: also that Kainser fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Aug 12, 2011 |
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Aug 12, 2011 21:05
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Nobody is Azor Ahai, all prophecies are poo poo
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Aug 12, 2011 21:10
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