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Vernii posted:Yea one thing the thread seems to be whitewashing is the FSA seems perfectly fine with battlefield and extrajudicial executions of prisoners. There was a video a few days ago where they captured a shabiha, had him call his father and tell his father that he captured a few FSA soldiers and asked him what to do with them, when his father said he should kill them, they took the phone back and said that because of that, they're going to execute his son.
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Jul 19, 2012 19:41
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They've still got a long way to go to catch up to Assad in the brutality department, however.
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Jul 19, 2012 19:46
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Vernii posted:Yea one thing the thread seems to be whitewashing is the FSA seems perfectly fine with battlefield and extrajudicial executions of prisoners. That's not really fair, there's been plenty of concerns voiced for the treatment of Alawites in Syria, and concerns about extra-judicial executions of detained Syrian soldiers. There were a few pages focused on the treatment of captives where it was told that the FSA had no choice but to execute detainees in droves because they didn't have the facilities to hold them. There hasn't been any whitewashing at all and the view that Syria will only descend into anarchy, chaos and ethnic cleansing after the fall of Assad is a common one. Syria has the potential to be the most violent and bloody post-dictator nation of the Arab Spring.
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Jul 19, 2012 19:46
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Xandu posted:There was a video a few days ago where they captured a shabiha, had him call his father and tell his father that he captured a few FSA soldiers and asked him what to do with them, when his father said he should kill them, they took the phone back and said that because of that, they're going to execute his son. That's like Old Testament or Greek myth 'justice'. hosed up. Jesus.
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Jul 19, 2012 19:47
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:
Uh...
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Jul 19, 2012 19:53
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Xandu posted:There was a video a few days ago where they captured a shabiha, had him call his father and tell his father that he captured a few FSA soldiers and asked him what to do with them, when his father said he should kill them, they took the phone back and said that because of that, they're going to execute his son. loving hell, that one got by me. That's the biggest obstacle that Syria is gonna face coming up. In Egypt especially, it was a very unanimous decision about what Mubarak should be replaced with. All these different group's with different cultures, agendas, and political views have the potential to collide in some mighty lovely ways after the fall of Assad. All the same, I think a decade from now, Syria is going to be in a much better position moving forward than it would had Assad continued to keep control unopposed. I just hope the time until stability isn't bloodshed on the level that Assad was already creating. VVVV Brown Moses would have a far better grasp on this than me, but I'm betting the FSA lacks that kind of firepower in the sniper department. As a former .50 M2 gunner, I don't think that the similar dushka would be capable of that with one shot by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not sure how AA weaponry works, but I assume a round from one of those would produce a similar effect to the explosion in that Syrian video. That one you linked is from at least a $20k sniper rifle. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 19:56
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Zeroisanumber posted:Maybe a recoilless rifle, .50 sniper rifles aren't exactly common and a hit from one wouldn't fling you like a rag doll. Actually, it can. I don't think that the other video in question was actually a mortor round. I am thinking high caliber explosive round. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nUZaAESv6k
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Jul 19, 2012 20:02
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Xandu posted:There was a video a few days ago where they captured a shabiha, had him call his father and tell his father that he captured a few FSA soldiers and asked him what to do with them, when his father said he should kill them, they took the phone back and said that because of that, they're going to execute his son. Chilling, but I could give a gently caress about what happens to any of those bastards after what they did in Houla and Al-Qubair.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:03
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Aliquid posted:Uh... Note I said post-dictator. Libya's uprising was equally bloody, but it had a relatively peaceful outcome once Gadaffi was ousted. The same appears unlikely to be the case for Syria. Zeroisanumber posted:Chilling, but I could give a gently caress about what happens to any of those bastards after what they did in Houla and Al-Qubair. Down this path lay madness. Escalation is the worst thing that can happen in war. Zedsdeadbaby fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 20:06
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Wow, gonna tell my dad to always answer with, "give them cake, and take them to the movies!" if he gets that kind of call. But that's sad, I wish they would have done something more New Testament to teach the dad: "And that's the difference between you and us -- we will treat your son humanely."
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Jul 19, 2012 20:08
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Zeroisanumber posted:Chilling, but I could give a gently caress about what happens to any of those bastards after what they did in Houla and Al-Qubair. It's interesting to note that this is a pretty common Western position, it was especially common during WWII. Suspension of the ethical because gently caress those fucks. Islamically though, its non-negotiably reprehensible.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:10
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Xandu posted:There was a video a few days ago where they captured a shabiha, had him call his father and tell his father that he captured a few FSA soldiers and asked him what to do with them, when his father said he should kill them, they took the phone back and said that because of that, they're going to execute his son. Have you got a link? I'm collecting that sort of stuff for human rights groups at the moment. I'm thinking that the border crossings may have been captured by the FSA groups who have had people come over from Iraq, and are of a more Jihadist persuasion. I think one problem post Assad Syria will face is a lack of strong political leadership, and you'll see the 5 or 6 main FSA battalions taking control of different regions, with their own style of doing things. It'll be like what the most paranoid anti-imperialists predicted for Libya.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:14
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Nova Bizzare posted:It's interesting to note that this is a pretty common Western position, it was especially common during WWII. Suspension of the ethical because gently caress those fucks. Islamically though, its non-negotiably reprehensible. Well, in Christianity also -- perhaps even more explicitly: Jesus, Luke 6:27-36 posted:"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you. Of course, practically nobody does it because it's a lot harder than judging people while ignoring your own faults. zero alpha fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 20:15
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Brown Moses posted:Have you got a link? I'm collecting that sort of stuff for human rights groups at the moment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-GvyQ9EO_I I haven't seen any evidence of that from the videos.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:16
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Zeroisanumber posted:Chilling, but I could give a gently caress about what happens to any of those bastards after what they did in Houla and Al-Qubair. It's a great idea to let the people with the nerve gas know it's better to take everyone down with you than get captured. e: I can't stop laughing at this loving title every time I post.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:16
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Golbez posted:Russia is its own region. They have a 140 million people. They can live without influencing even MORE people and area. They only care about their "influence" due to Soviet nostalgia and having NATO to focus against. Maybe the US, Europe, China and the gulf states should do the same then... but sadly, having the ambition of a slug makes other states punt you around and make conditions worse for your country/government. If you have the power to influence politics in your favor you will do that, and Russia still has that power. And as I dont think anyone has brought this up, a consequence of Russia being that big is that it has a lot of internal problems with various minorites and ethnic groups that want autonomy or independance. To actively encourage this behaviour in one of their few close allies might also give fuel to similar internal conflics in Russia.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:19
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zero alpha posted:Well, in Christianity also -- perhaps even more explicitly: Jesus, Luke 19:27 posted:But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. So I guess it's a little confusing
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Jul 19, 2012 20:20
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The Entire Universe posted:It's a great idea to let the people with the nerve gas know it's better to take everyone down with you than get captured. Assad already knows that the stakes are either death, imprisonment, or exile. I can't imagine that this story changes much.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:22
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truth masseuse posted:Actually, it can. I don't think that the other video in question was actually a mortor round. I am thinking high caliber explosive round. This compilation appears to actually be a collection of varmint hunting videos. Explosive rounds are relatively rare and expensive, and would not have the explosive power demonstrated in the video without also lighting the target on fire.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:27
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Friendly Factory posted:So I guess it's a little confusing Yeah, that's part of The Parable of Ten Minas -- it's Jesus telling a story about a King and his crooked/lazy servants, not Jesus giving a command for his followers to bring him people and kill them. It starts like, "[Jesus] went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.' .... " and so on. The intended lesson of the metaphor is about being faithful servants to God and using what you're given to do good -- if you don't, the King (God) will have your head. You can make it sound pretty scary out of context, I guess. This is a derail, though. zero alpha fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 20:29
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Zudgemud posted:Maybe the US, Europe, China and the gulf states should do the same then... but sadly, having the ambition of a slug makes other states punt you around and make conditions worse for your country/government. If you have the power to influence politics in your favor you will do that, and Russia still has that power. Something like 30% of Russian civilians believe that the revolution is a terrorist movement against a legitimate government, and another 40% are undecided. Doing what amounts to backing off on supporting Assad's regime because of pressure from the West, despite substantial approval among the Russian people, is far more damning to Putin's government than allowing a revolution to take over an ally. Russians can still expect a very heavy-handed response to any attempts at a revolution, and what happens in Syria won't change that. The issue is Putin becoming so despised that the people revolt anyways. He's already got a couple strikes as it is. Brown Moses posted:I think one problem post Assad Syria will face is a lack of strong political leadership, and you'll see the 5 or 6 main FSA battalions taking control of different regions, with their own style of doing things. It'll be like what the most paranoid anti-imperialists predicted for Libya. This is very similar to the situation in South Sudan. With these different factions controlling different sections, and many minor civil wars off and on, it creates huge problems for a fledgling government to assert itself. The biggest problems are the battles for the resource rich areas between the warring clans, which often has resulted in the winners reaping the benefits while the locals starve, the government not having the resources to oppose warlords and gangs of thugs from rising up, and what would be unique to Syria, foreign countries attempting to sway the development of the nation in a way that benefits them. It's a scenario where the people of the country really dictate whether a common government that the majority of the people support gains control. It's also a potential breeding ground for genocide. Edit: Also, loving landmines EVERYWHERE. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 20:34
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5er posted:Lebanon is considered unstable? I thought they were pretty okay? seriously? lebanon has shown time and again in the last 60 years that it only runs in two speeds: "calm before the storm" and "oh god it's all gone to poo poo jesus christ why is literally everything on fire" e: drat didn't notice it was two pages ago. sue me
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Jul 19, 2012 20:37
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Friendly Factory posted:So I guess it's a little confusing
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Jul 19, 2012 20:39
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Young Freud posted:Supposedly, these are in the al-Qasiuun mountains, near the Presidential Palace. About three miles away according to the Google maps, but still close.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:43
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Nova Bizzare posted:It's interesting to note that this is a pretty common Western position, it was especially common during WWII. Suspension of the ethical because gently caress those fucks. Islamically though, its non-negotiably reprehensible. That's not really a Western moral position, that's just a universal 'that's how war works' position. There's no mainstream Western moral philosophy that works on the basis of 'gently caress those guys'. War is about the application of force. The more force you can apply to your opponent, the more likely you are to win. There are some applications of force that might make you more likely to win, but are effectively neutered by reciprocity and meanwhile have terrible consequences for non-combatants. The Geneva conventions aren't supposed to be dependent on reciprocity but that's really just a bluff that's never survived any serious test - no combatant can seriously be expected to tie his own hands while his opponent escalates and nor should he be considered moral for doing so. It's not nice what happened to that guy, but he was on the side that opened that particular Pandora's box and the consequences that flow from that. tl;dr: talking about 'the ethical' in war is a conceit of people in cozy western democracies who will never face the prospect of actually losing one. The essence of war is not ethical. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 20:50
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Volkerball posted:Something like 30% of Russian civilians believe that the revolution is a terrorist movement against a legitimate government, and another 40% are undecided. Doing what amounts to backing off on supporting Assad's regime because of pressure from the West, despite substantial approval among the Russian people, is far more damning to Putin's government than allowing a revolution to take over an ally. Russians can still expect a very heavy-handed response to any attempts at a revolution, and what happens in Syria won't change that. The issue is Putin becoming so despised that the people revolt anyways. He's already got a couple strikes as it is. A big chunk of Americans believe(d) that Saddam Hussein and Osama were sitting by a pool in Baghdad trying to build a DIY nuke with Iranian support. Policy based on what uninformed citizens think is bad policy.
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Jul 19, 2012 20:55
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Alchenar posted:The essence of war is not ethical. This does not mean it's ok to kill detainees. We have the Geneva Conventions for this sort of thing. I loving hate it when people say anything goes in war, when that's just simply not true. Why do so many people find it difficult to comprehend that ethical actions can be undertaken in times of war too?
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Jul 19, 2012 20:55
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:I loving hate it when people say anything goes in war, when that's just simply not true. Yet here are are, with a detainee being executed and absolutely zero repercussions for those who did it.
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Jul 19, 2012 21:00
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It is because war is inherently immoral. It is where reason ends, and might makes right begins.
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Jul 19, 2012 21:04
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Young Freud posted:I don't speak Russian or Syrian, so I don't know what's going on here. Is this a rally for Assad or a protest? There was a small protest in Bucharest today too.
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Jul 19, 2012 21:08
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On the one hand, I understand, even if I don't agree with, the view that ethics is only a luxury of peace, and that as soon as the other guy starts doing nasty poo poo all our ideas of moral justification fly out the window. The problem is that the minute you accept this view, you no longer get to claim the moral high ground. You lose your right to the moral outrage you would otherwise be due for the bad things the enemy does. It's a kind of hypocrisy to say, on the one hand, 'well our enemies are engaging in wartime brutality, so we have to escalate and do the same or else we will not be competitive,' and on the other hand, 'look at the wartime brutality our enemy is engaging in! Clearly we are on the side of righteousness, and are due international moral support!' You really need to pick one or the other. Edit: Alchenar posted:You are in a civil war where the other side have taken to murdering the families of people they even suspect of taking part. At any time the army could swoop on your position with superior equipment and weaponry. At any moment you and your friends could be killed or captured and subject to horrific torture. The guy leading the other side has stockpiles of chemical weapons that he's threatened to use and his main way of securing the loyalty of the bulk of his supporters is through oppression and terror. See, your first paragraph consists of doing exactly what, in your second paragraph, you say you can't do. Juffo-Wup fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 21:09
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:This does not mean it's ok to kill detainees. We have the Geneva Conventions for this sort of thing. I loving hate it when people say anything goes in war, when that's just simply not true. Why do so many people find it difficult to comprehend that ethical actions can be undertaken in times of war too? The problem with applying the Geneva Conventions to this particular conflict (and many others) is that they were originally written with large, state on state conflicts in mind. In those situations, both parties have established governments and infrastructure that can be used to house and care for PoWs, who are uniformed and carry some form of military identification (Dog tags, for example.) In irregular conflicts such as this one, however, the rebels hardly have the resources to care for and supply their own troops, let alone PoWs (Who aren't exactly following the Conventions themselves.) Now, does this make it moral to kill captured detainees? Of course not! But there also aren't many other options available, and even if the prisoners weren't immediately killed there's no guarantee they would be treated humanely (Andersonville, I'm looking at you). To put it bluntly, it's somewhat unreasonable to expect the FSA (Which itself isn't a unified fighting force to begin with) to adhere to the Geneva Conventions when they lack the resources to do so, especially when the Syrian Army almost certainly isn't adhering to it either. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 21:10
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:This does not mean it's ok to kill detainees. We have the Geneva Conventions for this sort of thing. I loving hate it when people say anything goes in war, when that's just simply not true. Why do so many people find it difficult to comprehend that ethical actions can be undertaken in times of war too? You are in a civil war where the other side have taken to murdering the families of people they even suspect of taking part. At any time the army could swoop on your position with superior equipment and weaponry. At any moment you and your friends could be killed or captured and subject to horrific torture. The guy leading the other side has stockpiles of chemical weapons that he's threatened to use and his main way of securing the loyalty of the bulk of his supporters is through oppression and terror. Human beings are creatures of their environment. I can't condemn someone living in circumstances I can't begin to imagine from wanting to redress the balance of fear. e: my main point though is that in any war where one side didn't just have total military supremacy (ie. the US) it's pretty much a given that when one side escalates the level of violence, that escalation will be matched by the other side. On that basis, moral responsibility for what follows has to rest with the side that makes the decision to escalate. Even then, the reaction of the US to the war on terror even with a superpower level of military disparity speaks for itself. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 21:10
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truth masseuse posted:Actually, it can. I don't think that the other video in question was actually a mortor round. I am thinking high caliber explosive round. This video is a falsely labeled video of someone shooting prairie dogs or a similar animal.
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Jul 19, 2012 21:12
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FSA claim many suburbs, have video of sacking a political building in Al Tal neighborhood.
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Jul 19, 2012 21:12
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I think at this point the situation is such a shitshow that the idea of any FSAs being held accountable for war crimes is laughable. The Iraqi border incident is particularly disturbing and really brings a lot of questions and soul-searching to a pro-revolution Westerner watching from his cushy sidelines.Grayly Squirrel posted:It is because war is inherently immoral. It is where reason ends, and might makes right begins. Exactly. This does not make atrocities write-offable, just inevitable, at least at this point in our evolution. People inherently act crazy, especially when they feel they and their community's lives are threatened.
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Jul 19, 2012 21:16
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sooo is this the endgame or what? all of a sudden the FSA is in control of the iraq/syria border and making gains in damascus
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Jul 19, 2012 21:18
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I can understand the FSA's rage at these soldiers who, in light of everything going on, still support Assad. They tried being peaceful in the beginning, and were met with the deaths of their neighbors and families. I don't condone it, but I understand it.
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Jul 19, 2012 21:24
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SexyBlindfold posted:sooo is this the endgame or what? all of a sudden the FSA is in control of the iraq/syria border and making gains in damascus Perhaps, once they figure out where Assad is. There were pictures of him a few hours ago shown with his new defense minister but no one knows if he's still at the palace or hiding somewhere else.
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Jul 19, 2012 21:27
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Lammy! posted:I can understand the FSA's rage at these soldiers who, in light of everything going on, still support Assad. They tried being peaceful in the beginning, and were met with the deaths of their neighbors and families. I don't condone it, but I understand it. Exactly. It is easy to arm chair expert this poo poo but I imagine if soldiers killed my kid/wife/etc I would be cutting arms and legs too.
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