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On the flip side, my undergrad numerical methods course was a good balance of theory and coding and it ended up being one of my favourite CS classes in school. That said, my group theory class was my favourite math class in school. So, this advice won't actually help I guess  But, I'd say register for both, show up for the first class, and if the prof or syllabus for one seems markedly better, you've got an easy choice now.
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Aug 27, 2012 14:42
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Q: is it bad to job interview from the m4m section on craigslist?
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Aug 27, 2012 21:06
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shrughes posted:No no, this is a way more important decision, because the choice between abstract algebra and numerical analysis defines you as a person in a way that you can never take back. I really couldn't tell if you were being facetious or not. Your whole response was still very interesting and longer than I expected. shrughes posted:The answer to your question might depend on what other courses you've taken and other things that you've done in the course of your mathematics degree. I go to a fairly average state university so I haven't had too much heavy math thrown my way. I've had the normal Calc sequence, Probability & Stats, and Linear Algebra. I've also had an Intro to Proofs class, and while I didn't take Real Analysis, I did take Graph Theory, which was downright grueling (there were about 5 new proofs presented in every class), but I passed  I have a feeling I should take an extra proof based class just to prove to myself that I can do math as well as a real math major, but that's not required and I don't think anyone would ask. ManlyWeevil posted:Numerical Analysis for me was simply a lot of a "can you apply this formula in a MATLAB program" than any theory, but YMMV for school/professor. This was exactly the impression I got from the first class and flipping through the book in the bookstore. Dijkstracula posted:On the flip side, my undergrad numerical methods course was a good balance of theory and coding and it ended up being one of my favourite CS classes in school. I guess I should stick with Abstract Algebra then. My professor for that is well-spoken and writes abnormally clearly, while my Numerical Analysis prof has a heavy French African accent and writes in cramped cursive. Then again, Abstract Algebra is pretty early in the morning and the room sprung a few leaks over the summer with puddles on the floor…
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Aug 27, 2012 21:34
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it is posted:Q: is it bad to job interview from the m4m section on craigslist?
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Aug 27, 2012 21:49
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Devvo posted:I go to a fairly average state university so I haven't had too much heavy math thrown my way. I've had the normal Calc sequence, Probability & Stats, and Linear Algebra. I've also had an Intro to Proofs class, and while I didn't take Real Analysis, I did take Graph Theory, which was downright grueling (there were about 5 new proofs presented in every class), but I passed Okay you should take abstract algebra. Also, I was being facetious. Otto Skorzeny posted:NumComp was a course that a lot of MechE's and similar were required to take and complained about because they didn't have any domain knowledge. If you understood at the time what a subnormal was or could mentally model how floating point error in a numeric integral approximation will eventually overtake approximation error as the dominant source of error as the number of steps in the approximation approaches infinity, you wouldn't have gotten anything out of the course. There may have been a grad course that covered the topic more usefully. Okay, I remember it being required for aero's and heard from a math major that all the math majors found it easy and most of the aero's found it hard. I now remember (but it could be reconstructive memory) there being some grad-level course named "numerical analysis." Anyway, I've heard of undergrad courses called "numerical analysis" in other schools that were allegedly grueling.
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Aug 27, 2012 21:51
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Devvo posted:]I go to a fairly average state university so I haven't had too much heavy math thrown my way. I've had the normal Calc sequence, Probability & Stats, and Linear Algebra. I've also had an Intro to Proofs class, and while I didn't take Real Analysis, I did take Graph Theory, which was downright grueling (there were about 5 new proofs presented in every class), but I passed Hi, fellow Math/CS major. I'd lean toward abstract algebra. You may also want to reconsider taking real analysis. I've found that for mathematicians, a solid knowledge of real analysis is the difference between what they consider "fellow mathematician with CS background" and "wannabe mathematician who's really just a programmer". Whether or not that matters to you (or is at all fair) is another issue.
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Aug 28, 2012 05:23
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What do you all think of Joel Spolsky's advice for C.S. majors: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CollegeAdvice.html ? Particularly the bit about taking Microeconomics. Since I don't really know anything about Econ, I shoehorned it into my schedule this semester. I'm only taking it because he said it was a good idea to  . Now I can choose between Numerical Analysis or Microeconomics, but I can't take both. For for the guy recommending Real Analysis, I would try but there's no time slot that can fit me.(I'm probably over thinking my schedule, but this is my last semester and I feel my curriculum was kinda lacking compared to other CS or Math majors. I'll end up with minors in English and Philosophy from my first few years, so... at least I'll be 'well-rounded'.)
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Aug 28, 2012 17:57
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I think his advice there is basically good, although I'm not sure how critical it is to know C well these days, especially if you know C++. He's saying to take Microeconomics if you want to understand the business side of things better, so I guess it comes down to whether you care about the business side or not.
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Aug 28, 2012 18:19
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If you pay attention and have a decent professor (and thus, actually learn things), it will probably be useful for a decently sized subset of programming jobs. I'm not really familiar with numerical analysis, but I'm guessing the exact same statement is true for it as well.
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Aug 28, 2012 18:28
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Zhentar posted:If you pay attention and have a decent professor (and thus, actually learn things), it will probably be useful for a decently sized subset of programming jobs.
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Aug 28, 2012 22:47
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God drat it. Got a call the other day saying this awesome job I'm super excited to be interviewing for might not exist anymore. Finished interview 2 and said they'd (they being both the guy I interviewed with, and the hr rep whose been working with me in regards to scheduling stuff) pass me on to the next step. Then a few days later I got a call saying it could be a week+ til I hear from them while they do some sort of internal review on the availability of the job. Is that them secretly saying piss off, or am I just being an insecure ninny and they're legitimately doing some internal working
Sab669 fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Aug 28, 2012 |
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Aug 28, 2012 23:15
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I am a 27 year old English major, with only two programming classes under my belt, who wants to go to grad school in order to hopefully pursue a career in programming. I really liked the programming classes I took, and the degree I have now is barely worth the paper it's printed on, so I figured that one of the computer science master's programs designed for - or at least accommodating of - people with non-CS degrees would be the way to go. Is this the right way to approach this? I know, as it says in the OP, that CS is not programming. Should I look for a different, more programming-focused degree? Basically, I just want to find out what the most straightforward way to pursue a computer programming career is at this point. And assuming that some kind of grad school is the way to go, how do I find the right one? I'm looking for something affordable (cheap) and with decent instruction that is not going to be totally over my head. I am in Baltimore but would consider an online program. Anyone have any advice?
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Aug 28, 2012 23:25
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Sab669 posted:God drat it. Got a call the other day saying this awesome job I'm super excited to be interviewing for might not exist anymore. Finished interview 2 and said they'd pass me on to the next step then a few days later I got a call saying it could be a week+ til I hear from them while they do some sort of review. Is that them secretly saying piss off, or am I just being an insecure ninny and they're legitimately doing some internal working Don't abandon hope, if they hated you they wouldn't call you at all. Maybe the guy that was supposed to do the interview got sick or something.
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Aug 28, 2012 23:26
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Doghouse posted:I am a 27 year old English major, with only two programming classes under my belt, who wants to go to grad school in order to hopefully pursue a career in programming. I really liked the programming classes I took, and the degree I have now is barely worth the paper it's printed on, so I figured that one of the computer science master's programs designed for - or at least accommodating of - people with non-CS degrees would be the way to go. I personally know two non-degree programmers who got into the field by way of just demonstrating programming ability and building a resume. One was by way of web-design/flash/javascript and one was by way of technical-art/MEL-script. In both cases, once they had that first job on the resume that said "programmer" the lack of degree was dominated by having skills in demand and having lots of connections from previous work. Only consider grad school if you have no other way of working your way into the profession (and I guess a TAship that doesn't put you into debt counts).
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Aug 28, 2012 23:30
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Paolomania posted:I personally know two non-degree programmers who got into the field by way of just demonstrating programming ability and building a resume. One was by way of web-design/flash/javascript and one was by way of technical-art/MEL-script. In both cases, once they had that first job on the resume that said "programmer" the lack of degree was dominated by having skills in demand and having lots of connections from previous work. That's an interesting point. The truth is that I am not a "natural" by any means and I am not sure I would be able to teach myself everything I need to know. The structure of school would help me a lot.
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Aug 28, 2012 23:32
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Doghouse posted:That's an interesting point. The truth is that I am not a "natural" by any means and I am not sure I would be able to teach myself everything I need to know. The structure of school would help me a lot. If you like structure, then before you do anything else try your hand at Python the Hard Way. Then maybe go onto Code Academy and follow their Python and Javascript tracks.
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Aug 28, 2012 23:38
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Doghouse posted:I am a 27 year old English major, with only two programming classes under my belt, who wants to go to grad school in order to hopefully pursue a career in programming. I really liked the programming classes I took, and the degree I have now is barely worth the paper it's printed on, so I figured that one of the computer science master's programs designed for - or at least accommodating of - people with non-CS degrees would be the way to go.
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Aug 28, 2012 23:43
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Doghouse posted:That's an interesting point. The truth is that I am not a "natural" by any means and I am not sure I would be able to teach myself everything I need to know. The structure of school would help me a lot. 80% of a good programmer's education during college is self-taught anyway, and you'll have to constantly teach yourself new things after college anyway (it's not like there's a finite set of knowledge to learn and then you're done), so you might as well get used to autodidactism right away. 20% of a good programmer's education (at time of graduation) is from university classes causing them to learn things they wouldn't have otherwise learned, and if you're aware of that, you'll introduce variety into your education along those lines.
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Aug 29, 2012 00:31
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Sab669 posted:God drat it. Got a call the other day saying this awesome job I'm super excited to be interviewing for might not exist anymore. Finished interview 2 and said they'd (they being both the guy I interviewed with, and the hr rep whose been working with me in regards to scheduling stuff) pass me on to the next step. Then a few days later I got a call saying it could be a week+ til I hear from them while they do some sort of internal review on the availability of the job. Is that them secretly saying piss off, or am I just being an insecure ninny and they're legitimately doing some internal working Honestly it sounds to me like they want to hire you, there may be some internal funding issues related to actually being able to fill the position, and they're being proactive by telling you now while they go plead up the chain to be able to extend you an offer. I wouldn't sweat it just yet.
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Aug 29, 2012 00:52
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How much of an issue is there in taking Automata Theory and Algorithms at the same time? I'm currently enrolled in both but am considering dropping the latter. Professors in both classes are recommending against taking Algorithms until after Automata, and I don't need to get Algorithms done this semester and Automata is not a prerequisite for Algorithms, officially. Dropping the class would ease up my load so I could work on side projects, as well as be a TA for the Data Structures class. On the other hand, knocking out Algorithms this semester would mean one less senior level class to take along with the senior capstone. Advice?
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Aug 29, 2012 01:41
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carry on then posted:How much of an issue is there in taking Automata Theory and Algorithms at the same time? I'm currently enrolled in both but am considering dropping the latter. Professors in both classes are recommending against taking Algorithms until after Automata, and I don't need to get Algorithms done this semester and Automata is not a prerequisite for Algorithms, officially. Dropping the class would ease up my load so I could work on side projects, as well as be a TA for the Data Structures class. On the other hand, knocking out Algorithms this semester would mean one less senior level class to take along with the senior capstone. Advice? Talk to other people in your program, not a bunch of strangers on the Internet who don't know jack poo poo about your school's CS curriculum
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Aug 29, 2012 01:47
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Ithaqua posted:Talk to other people in your program, not a bunch of strangers on the Internet who don't know jack poo poo about your school's CS curriculum Sorry, I saw someone asking about class recommendations earlier so I thought it was fine. I was also interested in hearing perspectives from other people outside of the program, something like "yeah, your professors are totally right and one really should be a prerequisite for the other" or "I have no idea why they're warning you away from it, they encouraged us to do that at $other_school." Edit: If it's the case that those courses are taught wildly different at different schools then I'll take their advice and drop it. carry on then fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Aug 29, 2012 |
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Aug 29, 2012 01:55
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They have nothing to do with eachother, but the workload from both will likely kick you in the balls.
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Aug 29, 2012 02:29
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Hard NOP Life posted:They have nothing to do with eachother, but the workload from both will likely kick you in the balls. Unless you're one of those math genius types. Otherwise, what he said.
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Aug 29, 2012 02:34
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Plorkyeran posted:Don't get a Master's if the main thing you want out of it is the programming-related degree, as it's entirely possible to get a junior position without a formal education or much experience, and with most companies the long term career impact is pretty minimal. If you actually find classes significantly helpful then it's not at all a terrible idea, though; certainly better than any of your other formal education options as long as you're willing to work hard and get as much as possible out of it. Really, a degree will probably help getting your foot in the door with the HR department, but otherwise everyone else's advice has been pretty sound.
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Aug 29, 2012 04:49
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Tres Burritos posted:Unless you're one of those math genius types. Otherwise, what he said. I think a better way of putting this is that if you haven't had a proof-based course then it is very likely that both classes will be difficult for you. After taking one the other will most likely be much easier, especially if you do automata then algorithms. Disclaimer: I'm a math guy who had a very easy time with both classes.
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Aug 29, 2012 06:05
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Cicero posted:Here's an actual question taken from a recent interview I did with a big-name software company:
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Aug 29, 2012 06:22
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FamDav posted:I think a better way of putting this is that if you haven't had a proof-based course then it is very likely that both classes will be difficult for you. After taking one the other will most likely be much easier, especially if you do automata then algorithms. Yeah, I haven't had any proofs yet, only induction in a discrete math course that focused mostly on graph theory (the professor's area was combinatorial geometry.) Looks like the arguments are stacking heavily on the side of pacing myself, especially since I know they're both important classes and I'd like to be able to take the time to understand the material. I think I'll wait for next year for algorithms. Thanks everyone for the advice.
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Aug 29, 2012 07:36
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Wow, I'm very surprised that all of the advice given here was to skip grad school and try to teach myself everything. I am highly skeptical - did the people giving the advice also get into the industry without CS degrees? I also "know that one guy that did it without a CS degree," but I also know "that one guy" that did a lot of things that are rather extraordinary and not necessarily doable for your average guy. It seems very encouraging on the one hand, but I just don't know if I would have the discipline and organization to become knowledgeable on my own without any real background.
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Aug 29, 2012 22:48
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Most programmers learned to write code on their own time. We did it because we liked it, the BSc in Computing is just there to prove that you know how to program really. Most schools don't actually teach you much of any programming past the 100 levels honestly. I'm imagining a MSc will be much the same.
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Aug 29, 2012 23:07
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There are some people who only look for CS degree candidates. Fortunately right now demand for competent developers is pretty high so those who skip people because of that reason are only hurting themselves. If you can demonstrate that you can get stuff done, no one really cares.
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Aug 29, 2012 23:17
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KNITS MY FEEDS posted:Most programmers learned to write code on their own time. We did it because we liked it, the BSc in Computing is just there to prove that you know how to program really. Most schools don't actually teach you much of any programming past the 100 levels honestly. I'm imagining a MSc will be much the same. And the code you do learn in school is ugly as gently caress and lots of times very stupid. I can provide my github as proof.
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Aug 29, 2012 23:37
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KidDynamite posted:And the code you do learn in school is ugly as gently caress and lots of times very stupid. I can provide my github as proof. Well that really depends on where you go, and similarly any sufficiently old codebase is going to have demons lurking around. Though god help anybody who has to work with NACHOS.
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Aug 30, 2012 05:40
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(I probably should have mentioned in my earlier post that I was 2/3rds of my way through a B.A. before I, on a whim, took the intro CS class at my school and liked it so much that I switched faculties, effectively delaying my undergraduate graduation for a full four years. So, I know where you're coming from on this.) Doghouse, maybe part of the confusion is that grad school in CS (actual CS grad school, not the aforementioned course-based moneyprinter) isn't like, say, an MFA in creative lit. You don't work on a single large piece of software that you workshop with your supervisor and might then shop around to prospective employers. (Now, that's not to say that you don't necessarily code, but the coding is a side-effect of "doing research". The research paper is the first-class object.) Honestly, I would not suggest grad school as the place to hone your programming chops, not because academics write terrible research code that won't teach you how to write software well (though that's true) nor because most of the competent programmers I and others have mentioned actually got good on their own time (though that's true as well), but because with only two programming courses under your belt, you probably won't be doing any coding in grad school. There are plenty of sub-disciplines of CS that attract folk from the social sciences, say, and the work they do almost has a bit of an applied psychology bent to it. I won't get into value judgements on that branch of CS, but the work they do doesn't really require that they write any programs; the value of that research comes from user studies, feasibility tests, etc. And, this is fine for them; one of my good friends is a pretty successful PhD student in HCI who, by his own admission, hates programming more than anything else in the world, and he can be a successful PhD student because his output is measured in terms of research, not code. But, if you want to code in grad school then your craftsmanship needs to be at a certain level coming in. I guess what I'm saying is, go to grad school for the research, not the programming. Now, for your situation: you're still an English major, yes? Why don't you minor in CS to get the fundamentals down? Or, have you thought about graduating and then doing a B.Sc. afterdegree? My university, for instance, offered a transfer program for people who already have a university degree where you end up with a CS degree in ~two years, which is the length of a Master's program anyway.
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Aug 30, 2012 15:12
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Doghouse posted:Wow, I'm very surprised that all of the advice given here was to skip grad school and try to teach myself everything. I am highly skeptical - did the people giving the advice also get into the industry without CS degrees? I also "know that one guy that did it without a CS degree," but I also know "that one guy" that did a lot of things that are rather extraordinary and not necessarily doable for your average guy. I don't "know a guy". I AM that guy. I went to school for Music Education, taught for a year and hated it. Went full time touring around with a band for about 6 years, then decided to settle down. Got a job in tech support while I taught myself .NET. Did that for a year, and was even allowed to attend some training in the development world. I just got (in July) my first development job. And I'm surprisingly not drowning. It's difficult sometimes, but I'm in a really good environment with a great Senior Dev on my team that's willing to take the time to bring me up to speed (when he can afford to). Between that and COC, I'm set. And now I have the job title on my resume, so every job from here on out will be easier to get.
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Aug 30, 2012 15:16
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KNITS MY FEEDS posted:Most programmers learned to write code on their own time. We did it because we liked it, the BSc in Computing is just there to prove that you know how to program really. Most schools don't actually teach you much of any programming past the 100 levels honestly. I'm imagining a MSc will be much the same. The one big rule of getting a masters degree in anything is never spend any of your own money. Scholarships/paid grad school is awesome. If your company is paying for it - cool. If your parents are paying for it - only get the degree if you don't like them. Otherwise stay the gently caress away, it will not be worth it.
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Aug 30, 2012 15:28
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hieronymus posted:The one big rule of getting a masters degree in anything is never spend any of your own money. Scholarships/paid grad school is awesome. If your company is paying for it - cool. If your parents are paying for it - only get the degree if you don't like them. Otherwise stay the gently caress away, it will not be worth it. ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE WARNING: Every developer I've ever met who has a masters degree has been a lovely coder but thought they were hot poo poo because of the extra degree.
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Aug 30, 2012 15:30
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Ithaqua posted:ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE WARNING: Every developer I've ever met who has a masters degree has been a lovely coder but thought they were hot poo poo because of the extra degree.
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Aug 30, 2012 15:45
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^^^ most of the MS CS people I know came to the US on an F-1 visa to get it. Small sample for sure, but I still thought it was interesting.Doghouse posted:Wow, I'm very surprised that all of the advice given here was to skip grad school and try to teach myself everything. I am highly skeptical - did the people giving the advice also get into the industry without CS degrees? I also "know that one guy that did it without a CS degree," but I also know "that one guy" that did a lot of things that are rather extraordinary and not necessarily doable for your average guy. I was three or four courses away from getting my math BS for just about five years. It's been a while since anyone has asked me about it. Most places don't really care about a degree if you can demonstrate that you can code, and places that do are just reducing their ability to compete for programmers. More importantly, a good masters in CS will not teach you to program. You'll learn computer science, which is a neat field especially if you like math, but you won't learn to program. Johnny Cache Hit fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Aug 30, 2012 |
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Aug 30, 2012 15:48
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Plorkyeran posted:I've known a few exceptions, but they all either got their degree either by dropping out of a phd program or by tacking on an extra semester or two to their undergrad, rather than specifically going to school for a masters degree. How do people feel about that? The tacking a semester or two on? My school has that program and honestly I wouldn't mind doing it if it will actually help. Edit: link to program description KidDynamite fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Aug 30, 2012 |
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Aug 30, 2012 16:04
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