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Every time Nazis attack a left-winger there's a huge cry about how it MUST be a false flag attack and the leftist MUST be lying and I don't really get it, are some people just that desperate to believe that there are no violent Nazis in Finland and it's all just Sieg Heill Suomi style pratfalls or what?
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Nov 10, 2012 14:01
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Almost in every demonstration in Helsinki, which has anything to do with immigration or something else to irk the far right, there's at least one very suspicious looking young man observing the demo from a distance. Sometimes they have cameras with them and in that case you can check Patriootti the next day for some nice close ups of yourself. They're very easy to spot (on purpose, they want to present a threat) and considering you can see Koivulaakso in many demonstrations, it's not that unbelievable for him to spot a neo-nazi in a gay pride event. There were also a lot of comrades posting about the attack instantly on Facebook but I guess they're also part of the international judeo-marxist conspiracy. Considering Ligur's comments about stürmers and poo poo, and since I don't think he's alone with this image of the neo-nazis in this thread, I'd very much recommend reading the Koivulaakso, Andersson, Brunila book to all interested. The modern far right is modeled after the Italian autonomous marxist movements. The basic idea is to build a base of support as a subculture of sorts. This happens through gigs, parties, reading groups etc. Then with the support of this community you start doing all sorts of direct action, and in case of the far right assaults on any "unwanted persons". Not much anything to do with the nazis of 30s. The Finnish far right is trying to build support in this way, but thankfully the Finnish left and anarchists (very linked together here) have decades of headstart in this strategy. The far right has accomplished very little with this, and since it's all happening on the edges of "legal society" it's easy to hand-wave away completely. I'd also think that there's mutual despise between this kind of neo-nazis and the far right of Homma. The other side sees the other as pussies who you silence by breaking their keyboard in half, and vice versa the neo-nazis are not seen as much better than the anarchists they love to hate on Homma. This last bit is complete speculation, my life is too short to be spent on reading Homma or Patriootti or whatever is used today.
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Nov 10, 2012 14:14
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Stefu posted:Every time Nazis attack a left-winger there's a huge cry about how it MUST be a false flag attack and the leftist MUST be lying I like how pretty much the only false flag thing that has ever happened is that stupid swedehitler carving swastika on his forehead.
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Nov 10, 2012 14:17
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I'm afraid of Finnish extreme right as much as I'm afraid of Nokia Mission turning Finland into a theocracy.
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Nov 10, 2012 19:12
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konna posted:I'm afraid of Finnish extreme right as much as I'm afraid of Nokia Mission turning Finland into a theocracy. But do you have a reason to be afraid of them? In the nineties, skinheads used to patrol outside gay bars in Helsinki with baseball bats for a bit of sport. Skinheads also wrecked a somali-owned cafeteria in Turku at least twice until it closed permanently. While the far right doesn't present an existential threat to society or even a threat to the majority, it certainly is a threat to many people on an individual level.
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Nov 10, 2012 19:31
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I'm a black dude in Finland who grew up in the deepest darkest depths of Savo and I'm afraid of the Finnish extreme right about as much as I am afraid of a Russian invasion.
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Nov 10, 2012 20:43
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DarkCrawler posted:I'm a black dude in Finland who grew up in the deepest darkest depths of Savo and I'm afraid of the Finnish extreme right about as much as I am afraid of a Russian invasion. As a white person of full Finnish heritage I would be horrified at the thought of growing up in Savo. E: not a joke.
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Nov 11, 2012 06:02
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SnowblindFatal posted:As a white person of full Finnish heritage I would be horrified at the thought of growing up in Savo.
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Nov 11, 2012 06:46
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I'm one half savolainen and one half hämäläinen. Racial profile: slow and crooked.
konna fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Nov 11, 2012 |
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Nov 11, 2012 09:45
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Well I never claimed I wasn't afraid of Savo. I get cold sweats and Vietnam-esque flashbacks whenever I have to go back. The extreme far right just didn't have anything to do with it.
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Nov 11, 2012 10:20
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Whether any of us is personally afraid of the finnish far right has no bearing on whether they are dangerous or not. The fact remains that they do and always will represent a potential threat to society and we've been lucky so far that the conditions haven't been right for that threat to manifest in a major way.
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Nov 11, 2012 14:57
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I went to school with some guys who ended up in far-right posses & prison (there's a close connection). The groups might not present an organised threat as such, but there's a lot of people who do a lot of speed, deal a lot of drugs, and are very prone to random bursts of violence in those circles. It's irresponsible to downplay the significance of fascist ideology for biker gangs & a lot of other very awful people.
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Nov 11, 2012 18:54
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Ras Het posted:The groups might not present an organised threat. Bingo. Btw I dislike violent criminals and their warped ideology, too.
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Nov 11, 2012 23:52
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I'm not afraid of people who rape children because I'm not a child.
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Nov 12, 2012 07:50
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I'm not afraid of criminals, traffic accidents or asteroids, because it would sure suck to live in fear all the time.
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Nov 12, 2012 08:29
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Better go check that my kids are indoors because of  stranger danger , brb.
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Nov 12, 2012 11:23
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Good news, everyone! CP youth Helsinki district's chief Alena Santalainen supports legalizing brothels so that each municipality can allow or disallow the activities. I have no doubts that her initiative will be given a heartfelt welcome in her party.
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Nov 12, 2012 16:59
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Kemper Boyd posted:Mind you, what are the fringe groups you're talking about? All I can think of is Vapaa Liikkuvuus or whatever the gently caress it's called and it's not supported by the party anyway. Holding a single fringe opinion doesn't make a person necessarily fringe, but sufficient popularity of any single fringe idea is enough to form a loose fringe group. There might not be official support in the party line for all the ideas mentioned above, but there sure as hell is unofficial kind of support. What should be thought of the fact that Dan Koivulaakso, former chairman of the LA youth organization, has been very much involved in the activities of Vapaa liikkuvuus? All those other things I have myself read KU Viikkolehti write about in a generally positive fashion. Not all of that paper is bad, but every issue comes guaranteed with at least a couple of moments of deep embarrassment. The latest one had a full page story about Eetu "paskaduuni" Viren who thinks that economics departments in general are bastions of neoliberal theory. How delightfully polar opposite to libertarians who think that economics departments in general are bastions of Keynesian statism. On the next page a sociologist of class endorsed a radically social constructivist view on everything, declared that attempting to argue with "objective facts" is not only very pompous but also a male thing to do, and then endorsed smoking and teen pregnancies for the working class as a way to renounce the middle class values imposed on them. Go read it at a library if you don't believe me. Even if I support some LA ideas and policies, I do consider myself left of center and all the parties on the left have some decent ideas, the party as a whole dismally fails to evoke any sense of trust in me. The amount of flirting it does with counterculture crazies and just plain crazies is enough to convince me that it cares more about those people than boring normal ol' me. (And I bet a bunch of Foucault scholars would have a lot to say about how I define myself as normal and others as abnormal! Tsk tsk!) It could actually be pretty interesting to hear if you recognize the problem and what you think about it. Cerebral Bore posted:That's nice. Now you just have to present some reasoning as for why a significant part of radical leftist youth movements today fit into this mold of yours. vuohi fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Nov 14, 2012 |
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Nov 14, 2012 00:22
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They have infinite possibilities to name the new arena and choose 'Helsinki Garden'.  At least they forgot to buy the domain.
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Nov 14, 2012 08:50
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vuohi posted:Vapaa Liikkuvuus folks would be one, yeah. Then there are the people who see basic income as a way to refuse from doing work, harming the (already doomed?) struggle to make our social security system sane again. All the "alternative economic theory" types too. And the people who think that we are obliged to tolerate any bad behaviour in the public space because it is public space. University leftist who seem to have a new fad every six months (how is that "99%" tent revolution doing?). And there are others. I've recently actually talked about stuff like this with some Left Youth activists and at least the people I've met recognize that there's a certain tendency to focus on nonessential issues among at least some of the left. However, inside the Left, that's pretty much on the way out. It's a nineties relic from the general left collapse which led to people joining single-issues orgs and so on to get an outlet for their activism. However, with the resurgence of the Left over the last ten years, for instance, Li Andersson is very much not active in fringe orgs. And why would she, since the Left has made itself relevant again. And the alternative economic theory people, I haven't actually much seen of them in the Left. All I can think of is Talousdemokratia people who seem to congregate in the fringe parties.
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Nov 14, 2012 21:10
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Kemper Boyd posted:I've recently actually talked about stuff like this with some Left Youth activists and at least the people I've met recognize that there's a certain tendency to focus on nonessential issues among at least some of the left. However, inside the Left, that's pretty much on the way out. It's a nineties relic from the general left collapse which led to people joining single-issues orgs and so on to get an outlet for their activism. However, with the resurgence of the Left over the last ten years, for instance, Li Andersson is very much not active in fringe orgs. And why would she, since the Left has made itself relevant again. I don't know much about Li Anderson or the other West Coasters, but yeah, it is no secret that the most capable young leftists are in LA and not SDP. The SDP move of becoming a special interest party for the baby boomers might have interesting repercussions for the Finnish left in the next 10-20 years. (I'm intentionally excluding the Green social liberals from this.) It's not like I don't agree with some LA folks about the desperate need for affordable housing in the cities, basic income, and our need to shun ecologically destructive lifestyles. I'd actually vote the devil himself if he stood for these issues, so I sincerely hope that the search for a direction in the party ends well.
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Nov 15, 2012 00:01
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Guys, you are forgetting the other leftist party that has almost as much representation in the parliament as SDP has. 
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Nov 15, 2012 06:20
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Also:quote:University leftist who seem to have a new fad every six months (how is that "99%" tent revolution doing?). As far as I can remember there really weren't more than a handful (if that) of people active in LA in that saddish affair, it was mostly Verkkomedia, anarchists, Zeitgeisters, Talousdemokratia folks, Muutos 2011 folks, radical environmentalists, what remains of the Communist Party and such.
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Nov 15, 2012 11:06
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Rurik posted:Guys, you are forgetting the other leftist party that has almost as much representation in the parliament as SDP has. Well they are left wing, just not liberal as opposed to conservative. Those on the left often want to think everything they do not like is on or from the "right" so TF becomes right wing or extreme far right when they talk of them. (And right wingers, especially American style conservatives, see socialists and communists infiltrating society or organizations much in the same way.) TF is conservative (as opposed to liberal in the sense the Green Party is, which is why the Greens styled themselves as an anti-TF power and got their asses kicked), but does that make them a right wing party? Or can we just decide what is left and right wing as it suits us? Just contemplating this, please CB and some others who read my posts through a weird translator of their own with the accompanying hidden, open to interpretation secret meanings, don't bother throwing a fit. I'm not trying to attack anything in this message. I'm not not posting this because anti-left agenda. I wouldn't care any way. Kemper Boyd posted:http://www.radiocity.fi/uutiset/oulun-seutu/north-pride-hyokkayksesta-kuulusteltu-mies-vapautettiin/32/5164 Whoa, I stand corrected. Though, that's the only source I've seen this far and apparently Kansan Tahto (a publication which supports Koivulaakso's agenda). We'll see at some point if someone is prosecuted, and what for. By the way I never thought Koivulaakso gassed himself or invented everything. Something obviously happened. It's just that Koivulaakso sees "extreme right wing" dangers lurking everywhere, so it would not be far-fetched for him to "interpret" things to fit whatever issues he has a little, or a lot. I still wouldn't style the altercation as a dangeous national socialist attack, as in Koivulaakso being ambushed by jackbooted skinheads. AFAIK the "attacker" was trying to leave and Koivulaakso followed him, not the other way around. Ligur fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Nov 15, 2012 |
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Nov 15, 2012 15:15
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Ligur posted:TF is conservative (as opposed to liberal in the sense the Green Party is, which is why the Greens styled themselves as an anti-TF power and got their asses kicked), but does that make them a right wing party? Well traditionally distinction between left wing and right wing has meant the difference between progressives and conservatives. With their conservative and nationalistic streak, I don't see it too contoversial to talk about TF as a right wing party. Economically they are on the left, and I understand that for many today it is the only thing that matters. I just don't think that there is any hidden agenda with people using right wing in more traditional sense of the word. I have always thought that even TF themselves don't like to categorize themselves as a left wing party, see for example Soini's spiel about TF being a workers party without socialism.
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Nov 16, 2012 07:55
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I always thought the left was traditionally more interested in social equality and the role of the state in having that come about, and socialism in all it's forms instead of just being progressive, as in thinking only through reform will anything good come about. I'd consider progressives more as a spinoff. Progressivism seems to be very popular here in D&D though (almost any political or economical thread is rife with demands of wiping the slate clean, destroying the neocons, imperialists and/or just the rich and starting anew). Much like third-worldism for some reason that remains somewhat mysterious to me. Here I allude to the habit of many D&D posters seeing imperialism behind many of the evils they read and discuss about. But this might be an issue of semantics more than anything else. Left-wing liberals will probably continue to call things things they do not like right wing. In Nordic and West European politics it is used as a label of "watch out, these people are dangerous and right thinking social democrats should stay away from them". I also suspect a nationalist party will be labeled (extreme) right wing, partly because both the international socialist (very much alive in a sense) and anti-war streaks of the Left see nationalism as an enemy.
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Nov 16, 2012 09:43
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I don't see a big distinction between progressivism and social reformism but regardless we are talking about the same thing. (EDIT: when talking about progressivism I don't mean what you see as D&D progressivism but more classical tradition, ie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism) Anyway I don't think that TF are seen as a right wing party just because left-wing liberals label them as such. Nationalism, conservatism, anti-socialism (and anti-capitalism as in attacking business elites or extreme neo-liberalism!), and populism based on those things have been seen as right wing ideas for a long time. And TF doesn't shy away from these labels but instead they embrace them. Look for example what they say about their values: http://www.perussuomalaiset.fi/arvomaailmamme/ But you are right that these are murky issues of semantics. And like label of left wing, right wing can be used and is used as a rhetorical weapon. I just happen to think that the label fits when thinking about greater context of western political history. Not to go all Godwin here (and TF sure as hell aren't nazis), but do you Ligur see fascism as an example of left wing politics or right wing politics? Glah fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Nov 16, 2012 |
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Nov 16, 2012 11:51
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Glah posted:Not to go all Godwin here (and TF sure as hell aren't nazis), but do you Ligur see fascism as an example of left wing politics or right wing politics? I think Fascism combines both left- and right-wing ideas. Nazism is more clearly "far-right" as they took the master race idea further. Both combined state controlled and private economy. Fascist and Marxists share similar views about the necessity of revolution. Fascists and Nazis wanted to do away with classes as well. They just went about it differently. Fascists wanted a proletarian revolution and a single proletarian class. The Nazis wanted to get rid of everyone not of the master race and combine the rest, cherry picking what Hitler perceived neat things from both the left and the right. The Fascists and especially Nazis were radicals and revolutionaries, not conservatives by any means. What can you say? Why being "extreme right wing" later became such a curse and the Left affiliated most political movements they did not like as some form born out of the Right was probably caused by a few things: The fascists lost the war, at the time it seemed the socialists won (along with the capitalist West of course) and in the 60s and 70s the Left became very prominent among the intelligentsia and in colleges and universities. It was only natural to call what they did (and do) not like simply as right-wing. Ligur fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Nov 16, 2012 |
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Nov 16, 2012 12:59
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Ligur posted:The Fascists and especially Nazis were radicals and revolutionaries, not conservatives by any means. Yes, fascists are revolutionaries and therefore opposed conservatism as a political ideology. But the objective of fascism of classless society was based on conservative view of shared culture and traditional values from which the national spirit or whatever sprouts from. While the main reason conservative politicans often allied with fascists was the fear of radical socialism, they also shared the same conservative values regarding culture. These right wing ideas within fascism, like social conservatism, nationalism, idea of homogeneous singular culture, anti-socialism etc. are the same ideas embraced by TF. Now this doesn't mean that TF are fascists or even extreme right, far from it. But it does mean that there is some point in calling them right wing party other than left-wing liberal fear mongering or random labeling of nasty things. Unless you don't see those ideas as right wing?
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Nov 16, 2012 13:52
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Glah posted:I have always thought that even TF themselves don't like to categorize themselves as a left wing party, see for example Soini's spiel about TF being a workers party without socialism. I think modern SDP might be closest to a "workers party without socialism", because of their flirtation with neoliberalism and of their role as protector of the achieved benefits and their beneficiaries (and consequently not so good a party to people who don't have a fulltime job). And I don't think SDP is something TF wants to be. Ligur posted:anti-war streaks of the Left see nationalism as an enemy.
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Nov 16, 2012 14:54
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Rurik posted:This is somewhat amusing considering that biggest leftist power in world history, the USSR, was by no means anti-war. Had they succeeded in implementing communism, all war would have ended!
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Nov 16, 2012 15:00
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Rurik posted:And I don't think SDP is something TF wants to be. Funnily enough the reverse at least seemed to be true with all the populist "maassa maan tavalla" poo poo the social democrats tried to pull. Actually the whole "worker's party without socialism" is a rewording of NC's "työväen puolue" shtick and both seem to be working really well.
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Nov 16, 2012 16:24
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Lately I've been trying to pay more attention to the politics of this here country I was born and am living in so I skimmed through this thread and read some articles and I am now strangling myself with an USB cord. Is this supposed to happen?
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Nov 16, 2012 17:24
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Rurik posted:This is somewhat amusing considering that biggest leftist power in world history, the USSR, was by no means anti-war. Yep. The anti-war streak is just a streak, but both the US and European Left (and left liberals) have their anti-war.. ists. They sort of don't care or do not care to notice that USSR was anything but. Because those drat warmoning right-wingers! Or because USSR wasn't really, like, REAL Left or real socialism (I actually read that from D&D - this supposedly nullifies any criticism towards socialism or big, angry leftists powers.) And changing what Jerry Cotton writes a little, without the capitalist sabotage of communism all wars WOULD have ended 
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Nov 16, 2012 18:24
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The anti-war and anti-nationalism "streaks" of the Left date back to Marx himself and the realisation that wars are fought between nation-states and workers are part of an international class, not a nation. Also in every war it's the working class which does the dying and the ruling class which gains the benefits. So workers fighting against each other makes no sense in the greater context of a class war. Revolution is of course a different beast, and anti-war in this case doesn't mean pacifism. In the USSR this international and anti-nationalist tendency prevailed at first but when Stalin started promoting straight-up nationalism in the 30s it disappears completely. What the USSR has to do with the modern European Left of course still remains a mystery.
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Nov 16, 2012 20:00
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How do you guys feel that the European Left in general think about the European Project? (In Finland both SDP and KOK are very much in favour.) It's hard to determine what the "European Project" exactly is, but the EU-commission wants to remove powers from national parlaments and centralize decision making to Brüssels and the unelected commissars. Infact Barrasso (a former firebrand Maoist in the 70s) and his ilk consider national parliaments an unnecessary nuisance. The EFSM is extralegal, only taking money but never responsible for anything they do to anyone. The EU is trying to crush the Greek people into permament dependence on ECB. Well, they already have, much like the Portugese, and Greece is simply not allowed to default by their political masters who are much married to the "European Project" and are probably the sole Greek gainers. Much of the EU machine is staffed with former politicians so unpopular nobody votes for anymore in their own countries. More or less irrelevant issue because just can't happen, but lately the commission thought it would be a nice idea to completely ban anonymoys internetposting, too. They sound like totalitarian, powermongering monsters, if anything. But at least everything would be centrally controlled by unelected former unpopular politicians! I used to laugh at the EUSSR jokes, but not after what has gone down after 2011. They (let's say "they" are the Eurocrats) also want to create a permament monetary union, abolish borders and whatnot. Does this not sound like the USSR? It appears they consider any nationalist party as a serious threat, and no wonder, because that sort of thing is certainly against everything the Eurocrats are seeking to establish for good. One of the arguments for is that when we're all in the same federation, no nations no nothing, it prevents us from starting wars with each other. The new Homo Eurocraticus will be born, all brothers across (former) borders. Kinda like all the countries through history with a single party or same political system but with very distinct ethnic groups who share the same border never bloodily fight or have fought... but anyway.
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Nov 17, 2012 12:04
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Ligur posted:How do you guys feel that the European Left in general think about the European Project? (In Finland both SDP and KOK are very much in favour.) It's hard to determine what the "European Project" exactly is... Revalvaatio has published some very apt analysis of the failings of the European Project and the Euro Crisis: 1, 2 and 3. The European Project is a neo-liberal one and does indeed approach totalitarianism in some ways. Link 2 has some insight on just how undemocratic the whole process is. So opposing the "party line" gets you beaten up and thrown in jail, but I think the similarities with the USSR end about there. I think the opposition with nationalists comes more from the fact that the populist parties base their support on people who are getting hosed by the crisis. The abolishing the borders is kinda secondary thing, and is only true for some. Preventing wars is also kinda ridiculous. I don't know enough about the European Left to say anything about the whole of it (and this is the Finnish Politics thread...), but I think it is responsible for the current situation (not alone of course) and hasn't accomplished anything in solving the crisis. I'm not that hopeful that they ever will, though the LA has shown some very little signs of taking responsibility. I assume by the European Left you mean the leftist European parties who are getting meaningful support and have been part of the political processes in the EU. For instance in Finland I think all of the communist parties have always been against the EU, but it's not like they get any votes, and then there's of course lots of leftist people outside of parties alltogether who also have been very critical of the European Project.
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Nov 17, 2012 14:01
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quakster posted:Lately I've been trying to pay more attention to the politics of this here country I was born and am living in so I skimmed through this thread and read some articles and I am now strangling myself with an USB cord. Is this supposed to happen?
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Nov 17, 2012 19:28
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Glah posted:These right wing ideas within fascism, like social conservatism, nationalism, idea of homogeneous singular culture, anti-socialism etc. are the same ideas embraced by TF. Now this doesn't mean that TF are fascists or even extreme right, far from it. Why not? Aside from not being totalitarian, TF has always struck me as being somewhat, if not essentially, fascist (as has SD in Sweden). It is certainly a much better description of them than whatever nebulous “populist” label they've adopted for themselves, I think. I mean, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... ? Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Nov 17, 2012 |
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Nov 17, 2012 21:59
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Benito Hitlerstalin posted:I mean, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... ? You can compare TF to some real fascists, the Greek Golden Dawn. Has thundering rhetoric? - TF: no. - GD: yes. (Scroll to 3:05 to see what Soini misses.) Has uniforms or black shirts? - TF: no. - GD: yes. (Look at 3:34 in the video.) Holds parades? - TF: no. - GD: yes, if I understand correctly. Wants to have a one-party totalitarian state? - TF: no. - GD: yes. (4:00 in the video.) Has expressed concern for and valuing of racial purity? - TF: no. - GD: yes. (4:00 in the video.) Has expressed interest for genocide? - TF: no. - GD: yes. (4:00 in the video.) And, perhaps most importantly, is going around the streets in gangs beating up immigrants, minorities and other "undesirables"? - TF: no. - GD: yes. TF aren't fascists, they're rednecks. One reason I'm tired of the endless "are TF fascists or not" discussion is because it diverts the attention from what they really are and even though rednecks are miles better than fascists, they can be troublesome people as well. Speaking of TF, there's discourse about the possibility of Soini being replaced as chairman and the person who's asked about being interested is none other than Halla-aho.
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Nov 18, 2012 07:51
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