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Regen remains unchanged, out of combat timer is still 1.5 seconds. I like that they didn't change it with all of the other alien nerfs.
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Nov 20, 2012 05:31
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Splicer posted:Is there a need for it though? I think it's important for both teams to have a viable harassment option later on in the game that doesn't require 3 or 4 guys moving in a clump, especially in smaller games. Why is this important? Harassment tactics are really important for both sides to have access to because they are a way to create pressure and force the enemy team to make ugly decisions. If there's two skulks backdooring your main base power, how do you deal with it? Do you beacon? Do you risk leaving the chair and 1v2ing them? How many guys do you ask to phase back if that's an option? Can it wait until someone respawns? If you ask people to come back, is your offensive push going to collapse? These are all good questions to force a commander and a team to answer because it promotes gameplay depth. As aliens move up the tech tree they become more and more mobile to the point where "lone guy on foot chopping up harvesters with an axe" ceases to be viable because celerity skulks can cross the map and kill him in the time it takes him to drop them to half. By mid-game you're meat unless you're working with squadmates. This is a good thing because, strangely, marines are built more on cooperation and teamwork than aliens and benefit more. Being built on teamwork doesn't mean that solo harassment options should disappear completely because that removes depth from the game. Without the ability to JP/Flame, humans lose the option of creating big problems in the enemy rear for minimal resources to force alien reactions. Pulling a Fade or a Lerk out of the frontline to come deal with a jetpacking burner guy can mean your main offensive pushers can break through when they otherwise could not. Having that option means the aliens have to be prepared for it, which means they have more to think about and react to, which means a deeper game. Asymmetrical gameplay doesn't have to mean "one side does this, the other side does this, and ne'er shall the two meet". It also encompasses gameplay where one side may specialize at something to be better than the other guy, but can *still do other stuff* in the right situation. In NS2, marines are designed to work closely together in squads and support each other. An exo with 3 jetpacking special weapons welders supporting him is one of the deadliest things in the game, and the faction is built to specialize in close teamwork. That doesn't mean that aliens can't pull a similar but less synergistic teamwork gimmick with an onos/gorge/umbra lerk combo. Both teams have access to this sort of tactic, even if they're not perfectly equal. Harassment is similar. Aliens are tailor made for fast harassment strikes and backdooring, with four incredibly fast, mobile, and deadly options that excel at maintaining themselves independently in the field to apply constant pressure anywhere on the map. They don't need resupply and can get from point A to point B quickly. Humans are not as good at it, but with jetpacks they gain some of the mobility and survivability to make solo harassment possible. Much like the exo blob/onos blob comparison above, aliens are way better at harassment but it's important that humans can still do it. Wow, this is a lot of words, but I really like theorizing about game design. 
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Nov 20, 2012 05:32
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Garfu posted:Regen remains unchanged, out of combat timer is still 1.5 seconds. I like that they didn't change it with all of the other alien nerfs. That's good. Regen was fine, it was only with the onos that it became ridiculous, so I hope it's only the onos that got hit with the nerf stick.
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Nov 20, 2012 05:34
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I'm glad they didn't put in the lerk HP changes, that would have made it completely OP. I don't know if anyone has pubbed with me in the goon server while I lerk but drat, 100 more effective HP would be retarded, I already don't die. The proposed change would have given lerks only 75 less effective HP than fades.
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Nov 20, 2012 05:38
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Just had the most amazing game (Kha team). The game was completely shot. For some reason everyone voted out the commanders such that noone could commander. Marines were taking their sweet loving time sniping kills. Then, plan gorge was formed. All 9 of us went gorge, all 9 of us went to their base constantly heal spraying along the way. Level 3 weps? Don't give a gently caress. We went down to their bases, popped down 27 hydras in a small area, and wiped them out. Then did it again. And again. We clogged hallways with clogs and pushed on. Gorge rush took the whole map with no commander, no resources, and one hive on our side. The commander doing his phase retreat whatever was what killed him, we camped out the infantry portals and sniped everything with the hydras. The most glorious and most rage inducing game I have ever played. This game alone is my $30 well spent.
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Nov 20, 2012 05:38
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Build 230 changelog: http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/11/build_230_is_now_live_on_steamquote:Balance
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Nov 20, 2012 06:29
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Not really sure I get the changes to shifts and welders. Glad they're not doing that "let's list everything but the balance changes" poo poo, though.
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Nov 20, 2012 06:45
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Pollyzoid posted:Build 230 changelog: http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/11/build_230_is_now_live_on_steam Wow, that's quite the list of changes for the aliens. Nothing terribly disagreeable there though. The shift change of eggs makes me sad as a comm however, instantly spawning hordes of eggs was my favorite silly strat.
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Nov 20, 2012 06:50
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Brackhar posted:Wow, that's quite the list of changes for the aliens. Nothing terribly disagreeable there though. The shift change of eggs makes me sad as a comm however, instantly spawning hordes of eggs was my favorite silly strat. One game the exos were stomping through our hive and NOT killing it (Last hive, they were being dicks), but there was a shift still up. We still had tons of tres, so the comm just spammed eggs, and the entire right side of the screen was filled with soandso kills egg messages, since exos stomp them to bits. I say it should be 2 for 2, with a cooldown, not 5 for 2. 
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Nov 20, 2012 06:56
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What should I be using a Fade for? It feels like if I want to do hit and run shenanigans I could just as easily (if not moreso) be Lerk. What's their role?
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Nov 20, 2012 06:58
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quote:Changed combat timeout to 4 seconds.
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Nov 20, 2012 07:01
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Ciaphas posted:What should I be using a Fade for? It feels like if I want to do hit and run shenanigans I could just as easily (if not moreso) be Lerk. What's their role? I personally can't kill three marines at a lerk, but I can as a fade. If you can accomplish this and similar feats as a lerk then feel free to just play them.
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Nov 20, 2012 07:09
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Garfu posted:I'm glad they didn't put in the lerk HP changes, that would have made it completely OP. I don't know if anyone has pubbed with me in the goon server while I lerk but drat, 100 more effective HP would be retarded, I already don't die. I'm watching your videos on twitch and I'm staggered by how good your aim is with lerks. I wish there was some secret other than 'steady hands, a wider mousing area than I have room for, and practice'
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Nov 20, 2012 07:20
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AgentF posted:Anyone know what this means? Probably time after you are considered not in combat when not attacked/attacking. So this looks like indirect Regen nerf to me.
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Nov 20, 2012 07:21
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I don't know whether it's my computer at fault or something but the game is totally hosed for me right now after this patch. The server browser will display no servers and if I attempt to refresh the list it will freeze. If I try and kill the process the screen will go black and won't allow anything to be brought in front of it forcing a restart. If I just start it up and exit, it'll freeze up and I will still be unable to kill the exe. Also, I can't seem to join the servers through the console either, with the connection just failing. The game was fine earlier today too. Unknown Worlds!
Homeless Friend fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Nov 20, 2012 |
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Nov 20, 2012 07:36
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Homeless Friend posted:I don't know whether it's my computer at fault or something but the game is totally hosed for me right now after this patch. The server browser will display no servers and if I attempt to refresh the list it will freeze. If I try and kill the process the screen will go black and won't allow anything to be brought in front of it forcing a restart. If I just start it up and exit, it'll freeze up and I will still be unable to kill the exe. Also, I can't seem to join the servers through the console either, with the connection just failing. The game was fine earlier today too. http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showforum=108 Go there and looks at the very helpful stickies, there's a good chance someone has run into the same issue as you. If not, post a thread, the devs look at that forum very actively.
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Nov 20, 2012 07:43
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.wintermute posted:Probably time after you are considered not in combat when not attacked/attacking. It's also, as I understand it, a celerity nerf (probably a good thing, adrenaline doesn't seem great compared to celerity), since the celerity boost cuts out when you get into combat.
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Nov 20, 2012 07:44
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I like the ARC changes, and the 3 hive onos egg. Not sure how I feel about dropping the gore range, but it is only .5 meters.
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Nov 20, 2012 09:17
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P.S. STILL COMPLETELY DEVOID OF MERIT
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I am really sad that they nerfed the out of combat time again, I guess it's crag first forever considering how badly it impacts celerity + egg drop being really bad now and totally unsuited to early pushes. I hope "uber regen nerf" is talking about hive regen or something because 10hp/tick is going to make regen pretty lovely for higher lifeforms again.
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Nov 20, 2012 09:49
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Just had my first commander win, as Aliens. I love that creep tumors have ears. I'm constantly flitting around the map checking my chain and I saved a hive by hearing a buttload of footsteps that turned out to be a 5 flamethrower desperate rush into Cargo on Veil. Two fades and an Onos later, we'd pretty much broken them  Someone actually said "I like this commander!" mid game. It was only the third time I've ever done it  :edit: The best part was at the end, I was daisy chaining creep through the entire map following a 5 Onos game ending push, they all got a laugh as I dropped our third hive and our sixth resource node literally seconds after the marine's equipment in those spots got destroyed. Creep laying is so fun! TheSpiritFox fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Nov 20, 2012 |
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Nov 20, 2012 10:00
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AgentF posted:Anyone know what this means? It used to be 1.5 seconds out of combat until your regen kicked into high gear. Everything in this patch sounds great. I am excited.
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Nov 20, 2012 10:12
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Puistokemisti posted:So basically only role GLs have is "once defenses have been removed, you can use GL to destroy hive slightly faster than Flamer". Flamers cannot shoot the hive around a corner, from next to an armoury. GLs allow you to engage stuff in complete safety. The GL is artillery. Don't expect it to work well as anything other than artillery.
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Nov 20, 2012 11:30
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RadicalWall posted:It used to be 1.5 seconds out of combat until your regen kicked into high gear. Kanos posted:I think it's important for both teams to have a viable harassment option later on in the game that doesn't require 3 or 4 guys moving in a clump, especially in smaller games. Why is this important? Harassment tactics are really important for both sides to have access to because they are a way to create pressure and force the enemy team to make ugly decisions. If there's two skulks backdooring your main base power, how do you deal with it? Do you beacon? Do you risk leaving the chair and 1v2ing them? How many guys do you ask to phase back if that's an option? Can it wait until someone respawns? If you ask people to come back, is your offensive push going to collapse? These are all good questions to force a commander and a team to answer because it promotes gameplay depth. Aliens can have three different harassment attacks operating simultaneously at different parts of the map, but Marines can deploy the same group of three marines to harass three different parts of the map in rapid succession. By comparison, sending three Aliens to attack a base in a 6 v 6 means that half your team is committed to that side of the map and god help you if you need them somewhere else. Secondly, Phase gates and Beacon give Marines considerably more defensive mobility too. If a lone Onos is charging their base then Marines can use Beacon to send the entire team to defend it, no matter where they were or what is in the way. Thanks to Phase Gates a single Marine repairing damage in Command location A can instantly become a defensive unit in Command Location B. If there's a skulk in A and B then two marines can tag-team the ones in A and then redeploy to B to tag team the second. While Marine defence of supplementary locations (isolated harvesters etc) is weaker, Marine defence of key locations is extremely strong. By comparison, if you have an Onos in one section of the map and you suddenly need him at the other, your only option is to walk or die and respawn as a Skulk. If there's an Exo between you and the place you want to be then walking is off the table. So the game need "Harassment distractions" is already filled by the first section. It's OK for Marines to need two or three guys to form a decent harassment team because said squad can harass multiple locations in quick succession. The distraction squad and the en-mass attack are the same guys. So there's no "need" for the flying pyro. Whether or not the flying pyro is a problem falls under the second section, and the answer is yes. Aliens just don't have the capability to defend key locations to flyby strafes that Marines do. Sure Marines lose more structures, but a defensive Marine with a flamethrower in one base is a Marine with a flamethrower in every base, and is also building poo poo for you. A Fade camping out in your Crag hive is useless against a Marine in your Shift hive, a Lerk attacking the enemy base has to fly back to protect it, and a Gorge speed-building your Celerity hive can't suddenly start chucking grenades everywhere. Aliens just don't have the tools to deal with rambo Marines that can take down a hive in <1 minute. So you either need to remove the problem mechanic or introduce an effective counter. Kanos posted:Wow, this is a lot of words, but I really like theorizing about game design.  
Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Nov 20, 2012 |
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Nov 20, 2012 11:42
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Garfu - your lerk video has inspired me to try it out. To all the poor aliens on my team - sorry, this is gonna be rough for a while.
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Nov 20, 2012 14:19
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I thought Celerity was just a flat boost. How does the out-of-combat nerf change it?
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Nov 20, 2012 15:41
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Splicer posted:A key factor that you haven't mentioned are phase gates and beacon. While a late-game Alien can quickly run from its spawn hive to wherever it wants to harass, late-game Marines can teleport instantly from their spawn point to their nearest forward base. If Marines send a large group to attack a Hive location and the Aliens respond en-masse then the Marines can (near) instantly teleport them back to base and redeploy them halfway across the map. Phase Gates are extremely fragile, fixed structures that are terribly vulnerable. They're extremely important to a successful marine offensive, but to act like they erase the team's mobility issues is wrong. Your mentioning of the "beacon everybody back to main to deal with a harassing Onos and then phase back to the front" defensive strategy is actually a point I was going to make *against* marines having good mobility because in most public games reacting this way is usually the easiest way to get your phase network cut off at the knees; you are all but guaranteed to lose one or two forward phase gates the instant the aliens are aware that you hit distress beacon and the fact is communicated because they can arrive at your forward bases from theirs far faster than your marines can stop shooting at the Onos which is killing them/your main and disseminate through the phase network. The fragility of the phase network, which drops the moment either the gate *or* the power node goes down which can be accomplished in seconds by a pair of skulks, is a huge dent in mid-lategame mobility and requires constant vigilance by the entire marine team. Celerity does not. Marines needing two or three guys to form a decent harassment team late-game would be a good thing to balance around if there were no practical limits to team sizes, but you only have so many guys to work with on a team. Given that marines are reliant on groups to even function at a basic offensive level, demanding they divert a substantial percentage of their 8 man team to the basic act of economy/tech harassment leaves them at a substantial numerical disadvantage on their actual frontline. As one marine with a jp/flamer is assuredly not going to rambo a hive and its constituent buildings down in <1 minute and is certainly not going to do so faster than a lerk or fade with celerity can literally cross an entire map to reach him, I fail to see the issue with marines having a spendy personal pres solution to solo harassment. It's basically marines having access to a far slower, fatter, non-regenerating Lerk with limited ammo but better damage.
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Nov 20, 2012 15:56
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I think it's also worth noting that beacons are a completely telegraphed form of transportation (if you die to a beacon it's your own fault), and phase gates are both disorienting and put you in a predictable spot. If there are 3+ Skulks chewing on a phase gate, they're going to rip you to shreds the instant you phase through. Regarding flying pyros, 40 seconds is more than enough time for a Lerk or Fade to traverse the whole map and be home in time for dinner. Not to mention that a single crag can stop the guy dead in his tracks - pop heal wave to heal the hive for a thousand hp at the cost of 3 tres. It's not that expensive to throw a crag at each hive come lategame.
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Nov 20, 2012 18:25
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Flamers cannot shoot the hive around a corner, from next to an armoury. GLs allow you to engage stuff in complete safety. Also if you get swarmed, shooting at your feet is a good way to take 2-3 people with you and your GL can be picked up by someone else. quote:I thought Celerity was just a flat boost. How does the out-of-combat nerf change it? The out of date wiki says this: "Celerity is an Evolution which allows Kharaa lifeforms to gain a speed boost after moving for several seconds. Celerity can be nullified by taking damage, using any attack abilities (except alternate attacks such as Leap, Heal Spray, Spore, and Blink), or simply not moving." Someone earlier in the thread said they changed it to a flat speed boost but I can't confirm it either way. I really wish they would surface all this stuff or at least keep the wiki up to date. RadicalWall fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Nov 20, 2012 |
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Nov 20, 2012 18:30
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Magres posted:*Phase gate stuff* Speaking of phase gates. Has anyone had their dead body phase through a gate? I've had it happen a few times, and I don't know if it's just that I'd phased through before the game registered I died or that actual bodies phase through the gates. It's kind of hilarious to see though.
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Nov 20, 2012 18:58
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Since no one replied, ill ask again: how do I turn on the server option so people can't use "turn skulks white" workshop mods and what not.
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Nov 20, 2012 19:10
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FYI the out of combat timer wasn't changed, that's an incorrect note, it's still 1.5 seconds....which I think is a good thing, keeps regeneration and camo viable. It would have been too big of a nerf to make it near its old value. The regen nerf only really effects onos anyway, but with all the other alien changes I think we're in a good spot now. It was only really a problem with the onos to begin with. The max regen/s was changed from 110 to 60.
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Nov 20, 2012 19:11
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MC2552John posted:Since no one replied, ill ask again: how do I turn on the server option so people can't use "turn skulks white" workshop mods and what not. Sorry about that. Just to clarify, none of that stuff is in the workshop, it's all done through directly modifying DDS files in Photoshop. That said, this is what someone said was the solution: quote:{ This will however keep any legit mod users from joining as well. RadicalWall fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Nov 20, 2012 |
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Nov 20, 2012 19:18
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Garfu posted:FYI the out of combat timer wasn't changed, that's an incorrect note, it's still 1.5 seconds....which I think is a good thing, keeps regeneration and camo viable. It would have been too big of a nerf to make it near its old value. The regen nerf only really effects onos anyway, but with all the other alien changes I think we're in a good spot now. It was only really a problem with the onos to begin with. The max regen/s was changed from 110 to 60. Honestly, the major shift towards alien victory probably had a huge amount to do with fresh newbies figuring out how easy it is to counter an exo push. I'm not sure the slight armor increase on exos really did much to avert that and I anticipate that win/loss will still favor aliens a bit since new players are in that midway point where marines still aren't generally good enough to win games with sane strategies like organized jetpackers and still rely a lot on exos. It will probably continue to even out later as people realize how good JP+shotgun is. speng31b fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Nov 20, 2012 |
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Nov 20, 2012 20:03
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Garfu posted:FYI the out of combat timer wasn't changed, that's an incorrect note, it's still 1.5 seconds....which I think is a good thing, keeps regeneration and camo viable. It would have been too big of a nerf to make it near its old value. The regen nerf only really effects onos anyway, but with all the other alien changes I think we're in a good spot now. It was only really a problem with the onos to begin with. The max regen/s was changed from 110 to 60. Are there any other undocumented / incorrectly documented changes, aside from the new walljump code? Exactly how much was crag healing nerfed by? Was hive healing changed at all?
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Nov 20, 2012 20:53
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I got a jet pack, grenade launcher and kept buying mines, it was great, I stayed alive for like 5 minutes and got about 10 kills. I've been alive in an EXO for about as long as it took me to walk into combat.
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Nov 20, 2012 20:57
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Jetpacks really ought to be 15 res. Maybe 20. I'd consider a JP+SG on par with an exo in terms of usefulness.
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Nov 20, 2012 23:34
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Man, I haven't seen a good marine commander in like 4 days. They all either don't talk, build sentries everywhere, or are a combination of the two. As soon as I say that I am on a team that kills the enemy hive in 2 minutes. wolfman101 fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Nov 21, 2012 |
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Nov 21, 2012 02:39
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wolfman101 posted:Man, I haven't seen a good marine commander in like 4 days. They all either don't talk, build sentries everywhere, or are a combination of the two. They are using the sentries to spell out their commands.
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Nov 21, 2012 02:51
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Can't wait til Steelseries ships me out a new headset. Broken mic on this one, and I just refuse to command with no voice comms. But I want to command so bad! I think this might be the most fun I've had with a game all year. It's pretty drat close with Chivalry, but man this game is a shitload of fun.
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Nov 21, 2012 03:03
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Patch 231 is now live on Steam, I'm not sure what the changes are, there's no patch notes.
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Nov 21, 2012 03:27
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