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jonjonaug posted:Makishima is looking for interesting criminals. While Oryou's murders were evocative and daring, ultimately she was a copycat killer (in more than one way) who was unable to put her own spin on her work. Ah thanks, I wasn't entirely sure. Good episode, it felt like a proper investigation show here with a dash of Sherlock.
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Dec 1, 2012 22:45
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jonjonaug posted:Makishima is looking for interesting criminals. While Oryou's murders were evocative and daring, ultimately she was a copycat killer (in more than one way) who was unable to put her own spin on her work. He did actually provide her with the chemicals she needed to preserve the bodies. I can't imagine, then, that the copycat nature of her murders was either a surprise or disappointment. I think the problem was how she used the same themes her father used in his work. Would've been nice if he'd explained it to her before killing her. That art dealer/collector was pretty awesome.
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Dec 1, 2012 23:35
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Dan7el posted:I don't know if there is any single answer to that question. I think your answer is good, but I also thought it was more that her murders were thematically similar to her father's art style and therefore led directly to the police investigating her -- much sooner than he expected. Seemed to be pretty clearly about ~Originality~. I don't know if the speed of her capture has much to do with it, he could've helped her escape if he wanted to keep her.
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Dec 1, 2012 23:43
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Good episode this week. Light on the action, but heavy on the character development. Happy to see Akane grow some backbone, too. Though at this point I think I'll be more surprised if Masaoka somehow doesn't end up being Ginoza's father.
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Dec 6, 2012 23:26
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I actually found how Akane acted while being lectured refreshingly unclichéd in general. That was a positive surprise ...I'm most intrigued how they came up with the architecture of the house in the episode. I wonder if it's an actually existing one? I find it somewhat to difficult to believe that they'd come up with something like that just for the show. v Impressive, my thanks for confirming my suspicions! Dessel fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 00:27
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I have to get me one of those pipes.
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Dec 7, 2012 01:29
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Dessel posted:...I'm most intrigued how they came up with the architecture of the house in the episode. I wonder if it's an actually existing one? I find it somewhat to difficult to believe that they'd come up with something like that just for the show. It's definitely based on some Frank Lloyd Wright house, possibly Fallingwater.
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Dec 7, 2012 01:41
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So is everyone just wearing sweatpants the whole time or something under their holo clothes? What's the point in fashion if your nice clothes aren't more expensive than anyone else's? It seems like as a person's outward appearance became meaningless, society became more obsessed with what was going on in everyone's heads.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:19
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Dr_Amazing posted:So is everyone just wearing sweatpants the whole time or something under their holo clothes? What's the point in fashion if your nice clothes aren't more expensive than anyone else's? It looks nice?
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Dec 7, 2012 02:21
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Dr_Amazing posted:So is everyone just wearing sweatpants the whole time or something under their holo clothes? What's the point in fashion if your nice clothes aren't more expensive than anyone else's? Who says they're not more expensive? Have you seen costume-based DLC for games?
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Dec 7, 2012 03:35
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Dr_Amazing posted:So is everyone just wearing sweatpants the whole time or something under their holo clothes? What's the point in fashion if your nice clothes aren't more expensive than anyone else's? I thought they did a good job of keeping the cyborg guy just a tiny bit into the uncanny valley.
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Dec 7, 2012 04:18
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I feel like her personal AI concluding she was going on a date based on her behaviour patterns and started recommending her products based on that was a little close to home what with facebook's smart ad system etc. ESPECIALLY that it happened despite her protests.
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Dec 7, 2012 05:11
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Paracelsus posted:Some clothes flatter certain figures more than others. Some evoke or broadcast a particular mood. Some people simply like x more than y. I'm being somewhat sarcastic. But I do think it's an interesting parallel. We judge people a lot by what they wear, what they drive, what their apartment looks like. This is a society where the fancy lawyer in a 3 piece suit could actually be some poor guy with a 2nd hand holo projector. With no easy way to distinguish class or social standing, it's not surprising that those at the top would latch onto a a system that can immediately tell if you are better than someone.
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Dec 7, 2012 06:02
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Paracelsus posted:I thought they did a good job of keeping the cyborg guy just a tiny bit into the uncanny valley.
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Dec 7, 2012 06:18
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Is this a 13 or 20-something episode series? The pacing is starting to seem off to me for a 13 series. I'm kinda now freaked out at the minute possibility of dozens of people who have their brains in jars FOR SCIENCE  to develop that cyborg technology 
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Dec 7, 2012 07:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:Is this a 13 or 20-something episode series? The pacing is starting to seem off to me for a 13 series. 22 episodes. I don't think there's a break either, so it should keep running through the Winter season.
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Dec 7, 2012 07:35
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Knowing this society, doing something that violates human rights like that so that people in the future can live better is unacceptable. You are only allowed to violate human rights in a slow, continuous process that doesn't hold any hope of changing human nature for the better.
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Dec 7, 2012 07:37
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Gino's hair looked about 80% less terrible than usual this week, but it seems like the tradeoff was the animators forgetting how to draw Shogo's face correctly. I guess you can't win 'em all.
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Dec 7, 2012 08:17
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This show really feels like it should have more implications that the psycho-pass system is flawed. Everyone lives under this Orwellian surveillance network that checks for thought criminals and no one ever questions the validity of their "hues" as a measure of character. There was a bit of that in the first episode with the victim temporarily freaking out but it really hasn't been mentioned since. My prediction is that the white-haired bad guy, for whatever reason, registers as completely normal on the psycho-pass.
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Dec 8, 2012 01:07
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organism posted:My prediction is that the white-haired bad guy, for whatever reason, registers as completely normal on the psycho-pass. I'm expecting that and the fact that MC has a flawless Psycho-Pass to come into play when debunking the Sibyl system.
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Dec 8, 2012 01:19
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Am I the only one getting the impression that Akane is a deliberate favorite of the Sybil System- to the point where her scores and hues are falsified?
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Dec 8, 2012 06:53
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I'm willing to think that the system is likely 99% successful and is probably good at distinguishing criminals from people having a bad day. The checkups strike me as a societal overreaction that they never fully adjusted to the system. Having a bad day with a cloudy hue? Well take a chill pill and sleep it off... Which is fine. In moderation, but most people don't it seems. Which strikes me as likely that was the original point. A stress/mental health detector that was found to also accurately work with finding people likely to be criminals and it snowballed from there. What's obviously troubling is its inability to distinguish a "good" person whose mind is capable of 'thinking' like a criminal without being a criminal themselves. A judgement I'm not entirely surprised at considering how many 'dirty harry' cop types there are in fiction; like that film with Nickolas Cage that took place in New Orleans? But what is to me surprising is that while they seem to have some slightly humane system in place to make such people useful to society the margin is razor thin. Whathisface's life was shitcanned from the get go right because of it? Why wasn't there a few years of careful therapy and close monitoring to see if he improves? Zero effort to distinguish between people who can occasionally have unhappy thoughts but still be productive so okay give them a pass versus actual latent sociopaths seems odd but we wouldn't have our dystopian thriller without it I guess. I wonder if there's any exception system in place, like a chronic painful injury that spikes your hue but otherwise perfectly normal (or what he wants you to think?). Something tells me Canada is probably the best place to live in this society. Kinda wished I avoided the thread originally because dammit, either the ending has to be as as Danzel predicts or even more awesome or I'm going to be disappointed.  Don't let me down Urubuchi, lets go for a 4:0 win streak. The whole thing kinda strikes me as the potential 'dark side' of the social contract.
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Dec 8, 2012 08:07
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Raenir Salazar posted:Whathisface's life was shitcanned from the get go right because of it? Why wasn't there a few years of careful therapy and close monitoring to see if he improves? Zero effort to distinguish between people who can occasionally have unhappy thoughts but still be productive so okay give them a pass versus actual latent sociopaths seems odd but we wouldn't have our dystopian thriller without it I guess.
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Dec 8, 2012 08:42
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Job Truniht posted:Am I the only one getting the impression that Akane is a deliberate favorite of the Sybil System- to the point where her scores and hues are falsified? I think overall, though, it's pretty clear that there is a direct relationship where people get over-involved in bad things and turn out bad themselves. I feel fairly safe in the assumption that it is, in fact, true that if an Inspector gets too involved in a case, that Inspector will turn and become an Enforcer. They've already given us at least two examples of this happening. Likweise, in this last episode, there is an additional example of people learning how to profile criminals and turning bad also. Also, while it's easy to assume the Sybil system is basically flawed, I choose to assume it is not. Let's just say, for argument's sake, that Sybil truly can detect when someone crosses the line between dreaming about pulling a bank heist and actually being willing to do so. Somehow, Sybil has proven itself more than a few times to society in general as capable, and now society has handed Sybil their reins. With that as it is, then we can stop second-guessing Sybil. What we can do is wonder about Akane. She seems to be the odd-ball here. I think that Shougo Makishima is going after Kogami but will find his true nemisis in Akane. Ultimately, she'll be able to defeat him because she's critically flawed and a complete anomaly herself. She'll be able to act and do things that would turn a normal person into a Sybil-criminal but not become one. That's my new theory. Honestly, if she goes bad and becomes an Enforcer, I'll be disappointed. Too easy.
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Dec 8, 2012 13:33
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Dan7el posted:
Isn't the whole point that it can't do this? It's the entire reason they have enforcers. If you spend to much time thinking "Hey that camera has a blind spot. I could totally sneak in here." it's going to rate you the same. Even thinking too much about what motivates a criminal gets you cloudy. Which results in a police force afraid to even show empathy.
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Dec 8, 2012 14:33
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Dr_Amazing posted:Isn't the whole point that it can't do this? It's the entire reason they have enforcers. If you spend to much time thinking "Hey that camera has a blind spot. I could totally sneak in here." it's going to rate you the same. Even thinking too much about what motivates a criminal gets you cloudy. Which results in a police force afraid to even show empathy. With that said, I think we are focusing on the wrong things here if we're discussing whether or not Sybil is a correct-system. These people in the story live under the assumption that it is. Now, we all know that's very unlikely that any system would work as described, but the story has such an incredibly incredible system that is touted as working, etc. I choose to believe that it works as described in the story. That way, I'm not focusing on whether or not Sybil is actually a good and decent system, but on other stuff -- like okay Sybil works -- what does that mean for our protagonists? Let's say that the things that have happened are legitimate? With that, we can move on to further and, I think, more interesting speculation. ...actually, I'm not sure what you mean about it being the entire reason they have Enforcers. They have Enforcers because these folks are rated as latent criminals -- people with the real potential to do wrong -- who are willing and able to track down and apprehend other actual or latent criminals. Enforcers do the dirty-work so the Inspectors can have a clear hue and low crime coefficient. Are we saying the same thing? I don't see how that relates to whether or not Sybil is flawed. If Sybil is not flawed, then the Enforcer/Inspector relationship makes sense. If Sybil is flawed, then people are still acting as if it isn't, and the Enforcer/Inspector relationship still makes sense. However, if Sybil is flawed, then the people who are forced to become Enforcers are being unfairly punished. That's the only difference. It's not significant to the relationship, though. I think. The show makes it obvious that a large portion of the society is able to avoid hue and coefficient detection through various means. We have people secluded in private schools, working in government-jobs that don't get regular checkups, etc. Plus, like you said, there are known detector locations that people can avoid. A person might be checked once as an adult and never be checked again. They turn criminal and then are only apprehended after the fact. This is why the public safety bureau exists to begin with. What I'm interested in is this: If Sybil does work, what does this tell us about Akane? She's far more interesting now. Her friends envy her hue. Kagomi tells her that he thinks she can undergo the profiling training without damage, and she's willing to take significant risks. We're all sitting here (at least I am), biting our nails and assuming that Akane is going to be totally hosed if she gets too involved with the cases she's working with. It's already quite obvious she has every intention of doing far more than her senior Inspector does. She's shown an overly unhealthy interest in Kagomi, and as of this past episode she told her senior Inspector to lay off the advice and that she'll involve herself as she sees fit. Either she's going to turn into a latent criminal herself (which is what I originally predicted), or Akane is something far more than we expected. I am starting to suspect that she is somehow going to be able to beat the odds here and remain clean thoughout. Now, for me, that's the real interesting story here. Maybe the Sybil system is deliberately scoring her hue incorrectly? I suspect it will be something specific to Akane herself. She's like some kind of mutant (not really though), who can do things others can't and still keep a clean hue. Either that or she's actually insane to the point where she's doing stuff that should logically cloud her hue, but because she thinks she's doing good stuff, it doesn't. That's why I think the story is going to be where Makishima targets Kagomi and finds a young Inspector named Akane following him around like a puppy dog who, surprisingly, is the real challenge for Makishima. Or Makishima will destroy both Akane and Kagomi. That would still be an interesting enough story. The anime started out poorly, but I think it has a lot of potential and we're just now starting to hit stride. I have high hopes.
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Dec 8, 2012 15:21
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The question isn't whether the Sibyl system itself is "good" or not; it's an inanimate object, it doesn't have motivations or moral agency. And I think it's probably quite accurate at measuring the qualities it's designed to measure. The problem comes when people, whether the system's designers or the society that uses it, attempt to find meaning in those measurements, and do so in manners that are self-serving, fearful, or just plain mistaken, resulting in society warping itself around meeting standards for the measurements like a show dog line bred to maximize certain qualities until the dogs can't walk or reproduce naturally.
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Dec 8, 2012 17:45
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That's certainly true, I agree with that. But I feel that forms a basis of the surface level of satire crafted into the story to make it more relevant to its intended audience but in a way to get them more 'immersed' into the story. I put maybe only 1-10 odds that the story actually tries to break that way, its just juggling too much. There's details that serve as world building to add depth and then there's fully fledged plot hooks, I don't think there's enough yet to get into the meat of the matter. Gotta say, Akane telling off Gino was probably the most satisfying anime example of female empowerment in anime in a decently long while that didn't "cheat" by letting a gun or brute force do the talking. I mean sure, that works too but there's this insidious grey area of where such empowerment is its own form of male gaze that while I don't mind that either , I am forced to admit its existence. I like Denzel's interpretation, Sybill is a 'black box' plot element thingy, you have a known input for an expected output and it drives the story. As disturbing it is in of itself making it central focus just sorta makes it an inanimate black hole that risks making the characters uninteresting in comparison. We don't need to know if its flawed or not right now, we have good reasons to think so but its not relevant yet.
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Dec 8, 2012 21:00
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Dan7el posted:With that said, I think we are focusing on the wrong things here if we're discussing whether or not Sybil is a correct-system. These people in the story live under the assumption that it is. Now, we all know that's very unlikely that any system would work as described, but the story has such an incredibly incredible system that is touted as working, etc. This is kind of what I was getting at but viewing it outside the context of the show and applying my own expectations to how the story was written. Like, I almost can't believe someone would write a story where the big brother spy network *wasn't* flawed in some way and the fact that the characters in the story haven't really addressed that flaw is distracting me.
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Dec 8, 2012 21:44
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I don't know how you could possibly argue it's not flawed. It flags any cop that's not a blind idiot as a criminal, and lets serial killers into the highest levels of government.
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Dec 9, 2012 03:11
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Dr_Amazing posted:I don't know how you could possibly argue it's not flawed. It flags any cop that's not a blind idiot as a criminal, and lets serial killers into the highest levels of government. That's not strictly speaking true, it seems to be more a combination of trauma and obsession that made Kogami get flagged. Spikey haired kid was flagged when he was young and its not entirely unlikely that the older detective dude was likely flagged simply as a result of years of exposure.
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Dec 9, 2012 03:54
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Dr_Amazing posted:I don't know how you could possibly argue it's not flawed. It flags any cop that's not a blind idiot as a criminal, and lets serial killers into the highest levels of government. Eh, we don't actually know if cyborg-corporate CEO guy actually flags as normal to the system or if he's just found a way around getting properly scanned. The only incidence I spotted where it can be argued a scan was outright wrong was the one in the first episode, and that could be explained away if you take the view that the stun/kill threshold is primarily based around Personally I think Paracelsus view makes for the most interesting interpretation. The show is more interesting if the system itself is accurate at what it sets out to measure but has been implemented in a very questionable way and whoe results are prone to being hijacked for agendas beyond its core function. Edit: Seriously, you can't give me one minute to edit my post? Hit the reply button early by accident. Hidingo Kojimba fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Dec 9, 2012 |
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Dec 9, 2012 03:55
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Eh, we don't actually know if cyborg-corporate CEO guy actually flags as normal to the system or if he's just found a way around getting properly scanned. The only incidence I spotted where it can be argued a scan was outright wrong was the one in the first episode, and that could be explained away if you take the view that the stun/kill threshold is primarily based around Looks like you forgot some words there. E: No excuses, no turning back! 
Syenite fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Dec 9, 2012 |
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Dec 9, 2012 03:56
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Eh, we don't actually know if cyborg-corporate CEO guy actually flags as normal to the system or if he's just found a way around getting properly scanned. The only incidence I spotted where it can be argued a scan was outright wrong was the one in the first episode, and that could be explained away if you take the view that the stun/kill threshold is primarily based around It was mentioned that a politician was able to avoid scanning for years.
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Dec 9, 2012 04:29
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Yeah, it doesn't seem very hard at all to avoid being scanned by the system in the first place, which kind of makes you wonder just how many crazies are flying under the radar.
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Dec 9, 2012 04:33
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There's the logical inconsistency, though. If this thing is so accurate that it will authorize instant death penalties and everyone trusts it implicitly, there would be no practical way to avoid it. The government would have auto-targeting Dominator turrets on every lamp post that instantly kill anyone with a high enough crime coefficient. Everyone would be screened daily at their homes and jobs like walking through a metal detector at an inner-city school. White-haired bad guy couldn't set foot outside without tripping some random sweep. You could argue that the infrastructure doesn't exist for that kind of broad enforcement but if this has been around since Gino was a kid, that's got to be at least 10-15 years. At least the urban areas would have a constant surveillance network.
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Dec 9, 2012 05:15
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There's no logical inconsistency, that's actually a slippery slope argument, your automatically taking it to its worst extreme towards 1984 levels of Orwellian Evil when its clear that this has been far more gradual. The Dominators kill people, no politician would authorize it especially if there's a chance THEY would get killed.
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Dec 9, 2012 05:39
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My point is that the reason we have checks and balances is because there is no mechanism by which to perfectly judge something. As we have seen presented so far, the Sibyl system is portrayed as being perfect. If you trust that a computer can automatically render perfect judgment, there's no reason not to leave enforcement of that judgement to the computer as well.
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Dec 9, 2012 05:44
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Shukaro posted:Yeah, it doesn't seem very hard at all to avoid being scanned by the system in the first place, which kind of makes you wonder just how many crazies are flying under the radar.
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Dec 9, 2012 05:46
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organism posted:There's the logical inconsistency, though. If this thing is so accurate that it will authorize instant death penalties and everyone trusts it implicitly, there would be no practical way to avoid it. The government would have auto-targeting Dominator turrets on every lamp post that instantly kill anyone with a high enough crime coefficient. Everyone would be screened daily at their homes and jobs like walking through a metal detector at an inner-city school. White-haired bad guy couldn't set foot outside without tripping some random sweep. You could argue that the infrastructure doesn't exist for that kind of broad enforcement but if this has been around since Gino was a kid, that's got to be at least 10-15 years. At least the urban areas would have a constant surveillance network. Except that they said that a Crime scan takes an impressive amount of processing power from Sybil, which by result can run a limited amount of scans. The dominators just get high priority on sybil to-do. Why scanners everywhere can't be given high-prio is obvious.
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Dec 9, 2012 05:46
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