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Thulsa Doom posted:Ultimately, if a figure like Superman showed up in the (or a) real world, no one would believe him.
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Dec 17, 2012 00:13
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GazChap posted:Surely that would only last until such time as they demonstrated their awesome powers, though?
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Dec 17, 2012 00:15
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As Mark Waid eloquently put it in his introduction to All-Star Superman: what sets Superman apart is that he has more faith in us, than we have in ourselves.
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Dec 17, 2012 00:28
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Magic Love Hose posted:As Mark Waid eloquently put it in his introduction to All-Star Superman: what sets Superman apart is that he has more faith in us, than we have in ourselves. I hope the childhood stuff shows some of this development.
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Dec 17, 2012 00:47
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Baron Bifford posted:I think he means his sincerity. They wouldn't believe a man with that much power could avoid becoming a dick. I'm not massively up on Superman stories (was always more of a Batman guy) but are there any stories (other than the terrible Superman III) where he goes bad for any period of time? Presumably one of the weird crossovers deals with it? Batman vs. Superman or something, probably.
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Dec 17, 2012 01:24
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Is this a thing now? Just adding weird... panels... to costumes?
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Dec 17, 2012 01:47
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penismightier posted:Is this a thing now? Just adding weird... panels... to costumes? Yup. 
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Dec 17, 2012 02:16
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Rhyno posted:Yup. Oh cool that's really good. I like pants that are clearly delineated into zones. That's excellent.
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Dec 17, 2012 02:18
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penismightier posted:Is this a thing now? Just adding weird... panels... to costumes? It's a Jim Lee thing, yeah. It's part of what makes him a bad artist.
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Dec 17, 2012 02:18
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Hmm yeah better make Superman look like he's wearing body armor. That's very Superman. Classic.
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Dec 17, 2012 02:20
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Farbtoner posted:That happened in the original Donner movie, and I really liked it: Superman may be the most powerful being on the planet, but even he can't stop his adoptive father of keeling over from a heart attack. 
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Dec 17, 2012 02:21
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All Star Superman is great and it definitely deserves all the praise it gets, but Superman Beyond 3D is a lesser known miniseries by the same author and it may be even better. Like look at this: Superman works better as a character and an engine for stories when the Silver Age pure imagination ethos is dialed up to 11, instead of ignored, along with his inspirational aspects. It's a shame we'll never see a movie of that version of the character.
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Dec 17, 2012 02:38
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Rhyno posted:Yup. I like how they decided to give Wonder Woman the dignity of wearing pants, but those 38DDD breasts are still just completely exposed.
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Dec 17, 2012 02:40
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GazChap posted:Gotcha. The second or something season of JLU dealt with the fear of Superman (and the League) going too far with their godhood over the human race, and exerting too much control. They went to an alternate universe in an earlier season where their Flash died, causing them to become more assholish and go overboard with control, and then gradually started going in that direction themselves as the show continued. So, for instance, when Justice Lords Superman fought Doomsday, he just lobotimized him. It was actually really good, because it showed that the line between doing good and taking it too far was actually very, very thin with Superman.
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Dec 17, 2012 02:50
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The Born Approx. posted:I like how they decided to give Wonder Woman the dignity of wearing pants, but those 38DDD breasts are still just completely exposed. The pants didn't even make it to the actual book. There was too much bitching from fanboys about her costume changing. Look at this one  A year and a half before the big relaunch, DC did a story where Wonder Woman was rebooted in her own reality and that was the costume she was given. Drop the stupid gold straps and you have a pretty good modern Wonder Woman costume. But it was met with complaints and belly aching from the fanboys, complaining about the tradition and history of the costume and so she went back to the original.
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Dec 17, 2012 03:03
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As a comic book reading kid I always avoided Superman because he seemed boring and indestructible. Then I started watching the Bruce Timm animated series and really enjoyed it. I think the main reason I liked it so much was that they toned down Superman's powers a lot. He seemed to really be struggling to lift heavy objects and when super powered guys punched him it looked like it hurt. I'd honestly love to see that taken to the big screen: a more action movie oriented Superman where the moral questions are there but don't take over the whole story and there's a lot of trading punches and being thrown through buildings by Metalo or Mongul or something. This obviously isn't that movie, but it does look really promising. I loved the recent animated All Star Superman movie, which managed to make boring indestructible Superman interesting.
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Dec 17, 2012 03:20
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Blastedhellscape posted:As a comic book reading kid I always avoided Superman because he seemed boring and indestructible. Then I started watching the Bruce Timm animated series and really enjoyed it. I think the main reason I liked it so much was that they toned down Superman's powers a lot. He seemed to really be struggling to lift heavy objects and when super powered guys punched him it looked like it hurt. Well the trailer has Superman coughing up blood so we're going to see some limits. Is Lex in this at all? I'd love to see a morally gray Lex introduced in this one, even if it was brief.
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Dec 17, 2012 04:30
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ghostwritingduck posted:Well the trailer has Superman coughing up blood so we're going to see some limits. Is Lex in this at all? I'd love to see a morally gray Lex introduced in this one, even if it was brief. There's speculation that Snyder is treating Lex the same way they treated Moriarty in the first Sherlock Holmes, only in a shadow if at all. But this is all fan speculation so we know nothing as yet.
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Dec 17, 2012 04:39
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Darko posted:The trunks are kind of a non issue, anyway, since they took his trunks out in the comics as well: penismightier posted:Is this a thing now? Just adding weird... panels... to costumes? Oh come on, he's a hero of the people, the common man, and what about high military collars, body armour, and jack boots doesn't say hero of the common man? I mean, what don't you love about it? You want love? Heck, his shirt cuffs are rocket-powered heart-shaped Super-Daggers!
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Dec 17, 2012 05:05
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I think a quick glance at DC shows that the people in charge have absolutely no clue what they are doing with the bulk of the properties. The rebooting of the universe and not putting Clark and Lois together shows an incredible lack of insight into who Superman really is. To me the idea of hooking Superman and Wonder Woman up is just an excuse for Jim Lee to draw them making out and I hate it. I hate everything about Superman and Wonder Woman getting together. It furthers the notion of Superman being a God so he needs a God-like partner. The modern depiction of Superman (since 1986 anyways) is that Clark is the real person, Superman is the mask. First and foremost he thinks of himself as a human, he was raised by one, he thinks like one, he wants to be accepted as one. And that's why Lois Lane is so important to the equation, she grounds him in his humanity. The deletion of the Lois and Clark relationship is foolish and I really hope it leads to Dan Didio's eventual ousting from DC.
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Dec 17, 2012 05:16
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That over-busy Jim Lee design isn't so bad once it's drawn more simply. But earnestly, out of all the "no shorts" costume variants, this might be my favorite:  No shorts, but it keeps the color balance roughly the same with the belt, and the costume satisfies the "simply enough for a kid to draw" requirement that the Jim Lee costume does... not.
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Dec 17, 2012 05:22
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Magic Love Hose posted:That over-busy Jim Lee design isn't so bad once it's drawn more simply. That Smallville cover is terrible but your point is still valid. Who thought anything related to Smallville would end up being good? Also they've adopted the Returns S which I love. I only own a few Superman shirts that I actually wear and two of them are the SR symbol.
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Dec 17, 2012 05:23
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It's a Jim Lee thing, yeah. It's part of what makes him a bad artist.
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Dec 17, 2012 06:36
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Rhyno posted:A year and a half before the big relaunch, DC did a story where Wonder Woman was rebooted in her own reality and that was the costume she was given. Drop the stupid gold straps and you have a pretty good modern Wonder Woman costume. But it was met with complaints and belly aching from the fanboys, complaining about the tradition and history of the costume and so she went back to the original. They pretty much have to listen to horrible nerds now because those are the only people left that still buy comic books for the most part.
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Dec 17, 2012 06:47
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ten dollar bitcoin posted:They pretty much have to listen to horrible nerds now because those are the only people left that still buy comic books for the most part. I don't know, what are the horrible nerds going to do, not buy comic books? That seems unlikely.
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Dec 17, 2012 06:51
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The idea that Superman, everyday, all day, is unconsciously listening to the heartbeats of his loved ones, no matter where he is, is actually pretty great. I mean, if some one had super-hearing all their life, it would be gut-instinct natural to always listen to your loved ones heartbeats, like a security blanket. That last panel is terrible, but I like everything else about that. And I do like the idea of the government apparently being not just unnerved, but openly willing to arrest Superman. Superman having to earn everyone's trust, and having people just be unnerved by his abilities is something I want to see him overcome.
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Dec 17, 2012 07:15
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Gyges posted:I don't know, what are the horrible nerds going to do, not buy comic books? That seems unlikely. Who do you think writes comic books?
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Dec 17, 2012 07:16
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Blastedhellscape posted:As a comic book reading kid I always avoided Superman because he seemed boring and indestructible. Then I started watching the Bruce Timm animated series and really enjoyed it. I think the main reason I liked it so much was that they toned down Superman's powers a lot. He seemed to really be struggling to lift heavy objects and when super powered guys punched him it looked like it hurt. The trouble is that people consistently avoid the idea that Superman is a metaphorical character. Why does his suit not burn up? Because he's a loving cartoon - the impossible ideal self that the Clark Kents of the world wish they could be. Superman operates according to dream logic, or cartoon logic, or whatever you want to call it. What's bullshit is when people come up with these pseudo-scientific explanations for this stuff, like he has a quantum-particle midichlorian aura that keeps his suit laundry-fresh. Everyone should just say "how can he do that? it's impossible" and leave it at that. Superman's 'one weakness' is kryptonite, but what good films like Superman Returns understood is that kryptonite is just a metaphor for nihilism. Keep in mind that it's radioactive, and first appeared in comics around 1949 - not long after Hiroshima, in other words. Superman's weakness, given that he is a cartoon, is the blunt horror of reality. He's like Tinkerbell in the sense that he can only live if you clap your hands and believe in him 'irrationally' - and it's cynical disbelief that defeats him. Superman isn't powered by midichlorians - kryptonite is. Zod is an interesting character because he is an evil cartoon. So while Superman 'is' American idealism, Zod 'is' fascism (or something along those lines). So, while there will undoubtedly be much punching in this movie, the punching merely represents a more abstract philosophical argument. The course of the battle is determined by which argument is more compelling, with the characters becoming dirtied and bloodied accordingly.
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Dec 17, 2012 07:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The trouble is that people consistently avoid the idea that Superman is a metaphorical character. Why does his suit not burn up? Because he's a loving cartoon - the impossible ideal self that the Clark Kents of the world wish they could be. This is also why so many people think Superman is boring. They limit him to realistic conflicts, because they try and put Space Moses in the same box as SWAT Zorro. Superman works best as a legendary character, where he is a living metaphor. He IS Truth, Justice, and the American Way. Good superman stories treat him as a mythological figure. This is the main reason Returns fell flat for a lot of people. Watching this god fight what is basically a stupid real-estate scam feels cheap. Superman needs BIG threats, to match him. In Superman stories the Mob gets hover-tanks and proton cannons. Alien overlords, living suns, interdimensional imps, actual gods, those are what Superman fights. A Superman needs a Superworld to live in.
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Dec 17, 2012 07:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The trouble is that people consistently avoid the idea that Superman is a metaphorical character. Why does his suit not burn up? Because he's a loving cartoon - the impossible ideal self that the Clark Kents of the world wish they could be. That's what's terrible about the "costume as armor" aesthetic of the new comic book design. Superman is invulnerable, his costume has no practical use except being iconic. It's big, loud and flashy and when you see that blue streak you know not to worry because whatever horrible deathray Lex Luthor cooked up, or whatever weird unknowable cosmic horror is invading, Superman is on the job and we'll be saved. Putting him in armor defeats half the purpose of Superman.
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Dec 17, 2012 07:59
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GazChap posted:I'm not massively up on Superman stories (was always more of a Batman guy) but are there any stories (other than the terrible Superman III) where he goes bad for any period of time? I think what you're looking for is Red Son:  It's an Elseworlds, where Superman's pod lands in the Ukraine. It's every bit as awesome as it sounds.
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Dec 17, 2012 09:25
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The trouble is that people consistently avoid the idea that Superman is a metaphorical character. Why does his suit not burn up? Because he's a loving cartoon - the impossible ideal self that the Clark Kents of the world wish they could be. I prefer to just think his bifurcated anus generates a clothing shield.
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Dec 17, 2012 09:53
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The trouble is that people consistently avoid the idea that Superman is a metaphorical character. Why does his suit not burn up? Because he's a loving cartoon - the impossible ideal self that the Clark Kents of the world wish they could be. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Superman's 'one weakness' is kryptonite, but what good films like Superman Returns understood is that kryptonite is just a metaphor for nihilism. Keep in mind that it's radioactive, and first appeared in comics around 1949 - not long after Hiroshima, in other words. Superman's weakness, given that he is a cartoon, is the blunt horror of reality. He's like Tinkerbell in the sense that he can only live if you clap your hands and believe in him 'irrationally' - and it's cynical disbelief that defeats him. Superman isn't powered by midichlorians - kryptonite is.
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Dec 17, 2012 10:39
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Baron Bifford posted:Oh come on! Coming up with pseudo-scientific explanation for superpowers is one of the great joys of reading and writing superheroes! God no. Categorizing and 'explaining' superheroes and their abilities in cold, patently fake, calculated 'scientific' terms is the most absurd and illegitimate train of thought to ever approach a comic through.
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Dec 17, 2012 11:02
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It's what distinguishes a true comic nerd from the new legions of mainstream superhero fans who think they're one of us just because they liked The Dark Knight and The Avengers.
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Dec 17, 2012 11:09
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Baron Bifford posted:Kryptonite was just a plot device the radio show came up with to allow the voice actor to take time off. Superman would be disabled by kryptonite for the duration of an episode while the supporting cast carried the story. Then they introduced variant colors that had amusing effects. That's all it is: a plot device. Yes, but what does that plot device represent? What does it mean? It's a sinister radioactive substance that removes his super powers and brings him down to a human level. This has more ramifications than just him not being able to punch dudes as hard, now he has to deal with the universe in the same way as everyone else. Any inspirational power he has is gone. Reality intervenes. Baron Bifford posted:It's what distinguishes a true comic nerd from the new legions of mainstream superhero fans who think they're one of us just because they liked The Dark Knight and The Avengers. If that's the case then "true comic nerds" sound really lame, though you're kinda doing a 'No True Scotsman' thing here.
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Dec 17, 2012 11:15
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Baron Bifford posted:It's what distinguishes a true comic nerd from the new legions of mainstream superhero fans who think they're one of us just because they liked The Dark Knight and The Avengers. Comics are the loving worst.
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Dec 17, 2012 11:18
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I don't quite understand why so many insist that Superman absolutely needs a credible threat to challenge him. There are some issues and threats out there that can be solved by a megaton one-two punch that absolutely should not ever threaten Superman. You look at, I don't know, human trafficking, use of child soldiers, organ trade, or whatever cosmic-scale metaphor you can come up for them, and you have to be able to go "yep, Superman is going to come in and solve this without fail," because the alternative is generally too horrific to imagine. Superman is the absolute hope for salvation. He's the walking And They Lived Happily Ever After - what kind of rear end in a top hat wants to see that sort of thing bruised and beaten?
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Dec 17, 2012 11:26
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Fightest posted:You look at, I don't know, human trafficking, use of child soldiers, organ trade, or whatever cosmic-scale metaphor you can come up for them, and you have to be able to go "yep, Superman is going to come in and solve this without fail," because the alternative is generally too horrific to imagine.
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Dec 17, 2012 12:29
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Baron Bifford posted:I read newspaper stories about these things and always think "man I wish I was Superman so that I could beat these bastards up and expose them in the Daily Planet." But they'd rather give us Superman fighting powerful aliens who want to knock him down. Check out early Superman. He fought mostly corrupt politicians, slumlords, and evil businessmen. He originally started as the Great Depression's revenge fantasy, to take the fight to all those asshats that made normal peoples life hell.
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Dec 17, 2012 13:38
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