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The music at the start of brightman is from R-type Delta. We're working on the fortress levels little by little, but there's no ETA.
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Dec 31, 2012 16:38
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Dectilon posted:The music at the start of brightman is from R-type Delta. We're working on the fortress levels little by little, but there's no ETA. Just cut and paste spikes. Level done.
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Dec 31, 2012 18:41
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Glenn_Beckett posted:Just cut and paste spikes. Level done. Spikes, 1 tile wide platforms, water and ice physics, toadman rain, and chain chomps. I'll be waiting for my cheque, dectilon.
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Jan 1, 2013 02:20
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senae posted:Spikes, 1 tile wide platforms, water and ice physics, toadman rain, and chain chomps. I mentioned it in the youtube comment, but that also needs quickman death beams and vanishing blocks on the same screen. Try and figure out which "bvooom" sound is which, despair and die. The order you do that in I'll give you the choice, I'm not that evil.
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Jan 1, 2013 02:24
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Glenn_Beckett posted:Just cut and paste spikes. Level done.
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Jan 1, 2013 06:53
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Let's begin 2013 with me not even talking about the level! Level 3 - FORTRESS
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Jan 1, 2013 14:52
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I really like Level 3. It was the first time I thought to myself "You know, there is that 'Double' section on the power meter, maybe I should try that..." So I did, using the Tailgun/Directional load-out, and I was really pleased with the results. Everything died. Except for me. Because I no longer had a blind spot where enemies could ambush me and/or be out of range of my bullets, I was able to concentrate more on dodging and make it through the level. It really sold me on the Double being a useful part of my arsenal, something that no other Gradius game had managed for me, which in turn meant that every weapon I had available to me was good and useful, and that I needed to be on the lookout for areas where it would be beneficial to switch. That's something I wish we saw more of in games. So often, there's one choice that's always the best all the time and the only reason to make any other choice is because you're for some reason unable to make the best one. The most recent example I can think of that gets this right is Xenoblade. The number of different party setups, loadouts, and strategies you can devise is incalculable. You can save anywhere, switch party members/powers anywhere, and death isn't punishing at all, so you're free to experiment to your heart's content. And there's never only one right answer to a problem you're faced with. The result? A very rewarding play experience that makes you feel like your money was well spent. Also? Happy New Year, Hard Games Thread!
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Jan 1, 2013 19:27
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KingEffingFrost, I just want to say I'm really enjoying your Mighty Bomb Jack LP so far. Between being introduced to the game by Game Center CX and then seeing you spell out all of the bullshit buried inside, it really provides a comprehensive look at what makes the game frustrating and yet still pretty enjoyable. I started playing the game last night on a whim and found myself enjoying the all-or-nothing aspect of trying to beat the game with nothing but warps. It's really quite thrilling.
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Jan 1, 2013 20:08
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   Seems the forums update broke the way the images used to work...tough luck, I guess? I don't have much to say mostly because I'm really tired at the moment, so just this: It is most definitely possible to go under the AT-ST at the start, decti even made a video showing me how to do it because that's rubbing in how dumb I am, so I'm just talking out of my rear end and my own ineptness there. Sue me!
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Jan 2, 2013 20:15
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Simply Simon posted:
I have one question from watching the video. Sometimes your shots were bouncing off Speedrun Man but I couldn't tell why. Is it more obvious in actual play or a "shoot and pray" thing?
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Jan 2, 2013 20:38
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He's invulnerable when doing certain things. It shouldn't take very long to figure out when that is when you actually fight him.
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Jan 2, 2013 20:47
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Do those spikes that fall down in the first part hurt you, or instakill you? If they're instadeath, that seems to be exactly one of those "Get killed by it once, before you know that it's there and can avoid it" traps that everyone hates so much. Every spike after the first drops down a little beforehand, so you know where it's going to fall, but that first one has no warning until it's falling, and it falls pretty fast.
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Jan 2, 2013 21:24
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Yup, he's invulnerable whenever he's moving, basically - in the first part, at least; you can only get him when he's revving up. In the second part, bouncy phase is always vulnerable, chargephase only in the small window where he's level with you.Captain Bravo posted:Do those spikes that fall down in the first part hurt you, or instakill you? If they're instadeath, that seems to be exactly one of those "Get killed by it once, before you know that it's there and can avoid it" traps that everyone hates so much. Every spike after the first drops down a little beforehand, so you know where it's going to fall, but that first one has no warning until it's falling, and it falls pretty fast.  .
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Jan 2, 2013 21:27
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For the falling platform at 7:35 you can actually jump off it at the bottom despite its speed. You can also slide off it to reach the bottom platform, which can make the timing a bit easier.
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Jan 3, 2013 00:26
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I used Hack Man's power a lot on Speedrun Man's stage - it was probably one of the best uses I found for it. It also made that difficult jump a breeze. Also I'm not really sure if those spoiler tags are necessary so I decided to be cautious about it.
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Jan 3, 2013 04:36
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I added Stage thoughts for Speedrun Man's stage (and all the other links for the videos) into my "OP"! Oh yeah and I fixed Punch Donkey's image, I guess.Tengames posted:For the falling platform at 7:35 you can actually jump off it at the bottom despite its speed. You can also slide off it to reach the bottom platform, which can make the timing a bit easier.  .
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Jan 3, 2013 23:32
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Question for Dectilon! You'd mentioned that having places where you can't control the character is a bad plan in video games. What about things like Dark Souls? If you haven't played it, Dark Souls makes you be vulnerable for a decent amount of your weapon's swinging-time. This can be mitigated by picking faster weapons (a dagger's going to swing much faster than a longsword, for example) that do less damage. Is this acceptable/good game design, where the character being out of control is player-controlled, and you can mitigate it in return for varying other downsides?
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Jan 4, 2013 01:34
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Valgaav posted:Question for Dectilon! You'd mentioned that having places where you can't control the character is a bad plan in video games. What about things like Dark Souls? What bugs me about how Dark Souls does things is that it 'buffers' any buttons you press. So if you accidentally hit the 'use item' button twice in rapid succession, your character will then use the item twice, which you can't interrupt. I loving hated that, but I'm neither far into or at all good at Dark Souls, so what do I know. However, committing to an attack animation is a common feature in many Action RPGs. The Monster Hunter games come to mind. Not necessarily Action Hack 'n' Slash games as a whole do this, mind. Bayonetta lets you cancel almost every move into a dodge roll; and that game can get hard as BALLS.
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Jan 4, 2013 01:47
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Dark Souls very clearly tells you again and again (by killing your sorry rear end) that if you're not absolutely sure that the button you're about to press won't backfire, then you shouldn't press that button. I think if the rules are consistent and they're not so tight that abiding by them is ridiculous, it's absolutely fair. For the record: I love Dark Souls, it's balls-hard but feels so, so fair. Every death is my fault and that's exactly how it should be.
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Jan 4, 2013 01:54
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Six Of Spades posted:What bugs me about how Dark Souls does things is that it 'buffers' any buttons you press. So if you accidentally hit the 'use item' button twice in rapid succession, your character will then use the item twice, which you can't interrupt. I loving hated that, but I'm neither far into or at all good at Dark Souls, so what do I know. However, committing to an attack animation is a common feature in many Action RPGs. The Monster Hunter games come to mind. Not necessarily Action Hack 'n' Slash games as a whole do this, mind. Bayonetta lets you cancel almost every move into a dodge roll; and that game can get hard as BALLS. Pretty much every fighting game makes you deal with timing your attacks and understanding how you're going to be left vulnerable and for how long. It's part of what gives you and the computer ways to respond to one another's actions. Even in games where you can cancel, you still have to actually execute the cancel properly whether it be for offense or defense.
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Jan 4, 2013 01:54
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I'm not Dectilon, but I'm pretty sure that falls under the same heading as "it's okay for a game to lack air control after jumping as long as the game is designed around it [because the player has total control over the choice to jump]." Responsiveness of control is a very important issue for game design, and it's not as simple as "approach X is always superior." Having greater commitment to your actions - often through a lack of animation cancellation - shifts the type of challenge away from tactical reflex and toward strategic thought. Dark Souls requires little in the way of reflexes, though some are certainly required, while the entire game is built around knowledge. It's easy to beat once you know exactly what to do - the challenge comes from learning it, and especially finding techniques for surviving the learning process. In Dark Souls, a game that privileges knowledge as the most important form of progression, a control system that emphasizes commitment and conscious choice rather than reflex and repetitive drill makes total sense. As a counter-example, I've been playing LotR: War in the North lately with a friend and we've compared it unfavorably to the old LotR hack-n-slash games (particularly Return of the King). The reasons are very easy to spot, and control is a huge part of it. A hack-n-slash brawler like them old LotR games has very little fundamental depth of strategy, so it makes sense to design for reflex rather than thought. I remember that Return of the King, for example, allowed you to cancel practically any animation into a block, instantly. Which was necessary, because the later levels would obliterate you due to how much damage enemies could deal and how many of them would be coming after you at once. In contrast, War in the North requires you to complete any current animation before you're allowed to block. That means commitment... but the game still throws so many enemies at you, with so much health, that the game usually comes down to a battle of attrition rather than a battle of skill - often times you simply have to take damage if you want to deal damage, which wasn't the case in the older games if you were technically proficient. There's still skill in the newer game, but it's just not as satisfying (or difficult) as some of the challenges in Return of the King because the control scheme drastically restricts the sort of reflex challenges that the designers can expect the player to overcome. In this case, Dark Souls-style control commitment was the wrong choice. The design team went halfway between strategy and tactics when designing their game's combat and control systems, making it vaguely unsatisfying on both. The more focused, and thus more responsive, older games gave up any claim on strategic depth... but they did satisfy the player's desire to master tactical reflexes.
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Jan 4, 2013 02:07
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Another example many folks can probably relate to (unless I'm about to feel 50 years old) is Castlevania jumps. The early games had a set jump arc, if you hit the button you're taking a slow hop forwards no matter what. Later games have faster overall movement, double-jumps and air control for a lot more precision. For the most part though the games are built around what the character can do; in original Castlevania games a single Medusa head can cause terror in the heart of a player because they're just hard enough to avoid while dealing with other platforming challenges, while in later ones they throw twelve of the suckers at once and expect you to find/create a safe spot and get to it.
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Jan 4, 2013 02:20
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I love Dark Souls to death. At first I did actually experience some frustration with the inability to cancel swings into roll or block, but that was just me being impatient. Dark Souls isn't DMC. The enemies are perfectly manageable if you just stay cool, block and observe. Like I've said before, don't expect to beat a new challenge a hard game throws at you. You might, but you shouldn't be surprised if you don't. As long as you observed closely, and in Dark Souls this is especially true, the next time through will go much better. Like Corbeau alluded to, if you know you will be vulnerable after a swing/jump then you make sure to only do it when you know it's safe to. Alright! I love Dark Souls, but there are like 5 threads of it already. Let's not make this a 6th.
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Jan 4, 2013 12:16
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Corbeau posted:As a counter-example, I've been playing LotR: War in the North lately with a friend and we've compared it unfavorably to the old LotR hack-n-slash games (particularly Return of the King). The reasons are very easy to spot, and control is a huge part of it. A hack-n-slash brawler like them old LotR games has very little fundamental depth of strategy, so it makes sense to design for reflex rather than thought. I remember that Return of the King, for example, allowed you to cancel practically any animation into a block, instantly. Which was necessary, because the later levels would obliterate you due to how much damage enemies could deal and how many of them would be coming after you at once. In contrast, War in the North requires you to complete any current animation before you're allowed to block. That means commitment... but the game still throws so many enemies at you, with so much health, that the game usually comes down to a battle of attrition rather than a battle of skill - often times you simply have to take damage if you want to deal damage, which wasn't the case in the older games if you were technically proficient. There's still skill in the newer game, but it's just not as satisfying (or difficult) as some of the challenges in Return of the King because the control scheme drastically restricts the sort of reflex challenges that the designers can expect the player to overcome. In this case, Dark Souls-style control commitment was the wrong choice. The design team went halfway between strategy and tactics when designing their game's combat and control systems, making it vaguely unsatisfying on both. The more focused, and thus more responsive, older games gave up any claim on strategic depth... but they did satisfy the player's desire to master tactical reflexes. About War in the North, a couple of friends and I just played through it and are now working on a playthrough of the hard mode that you unlock for beating it. We found that dodge rolling worked better than guarding most of the time, aside from the dual wielding orcs that do nothing but relentlessly attack. You can roll the instant that your animation finishes, and the light attack animations are quite short. Near the end of the game, our tactic was to stun or freeze the enemies as soon as possible using special attacks that do tons of damage (like the explosive bolts or the overhand cleaves) and we were able to come out unscathed in most encounters. I honestly think that the combat in War in the North is really great even if it is extremely simple. Giving every character ranged and melee attacks along with all the co-operative attacks you can do made the game one of the most fun that I've ever played in co-op. I definitely recommend it if you have two friends that are into action RPG games. We are going to milk at least three run throughs out of it easily. To get less off topic, I am working on some videos for this thread of one of my favorite hard games. Should be ready to post soon.
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Jan 4, 2013 12:34
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 Stage thoughts on pastebin!
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Jan 4, 2013 13:09
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Evil Eagle posted:About War in the North, a couple of friends and I just played through it and are now working on a playthrough of the hard mode that you unlock for beating it. We found that dodge rolling worked better than guarding most of the time, aside from the dual wielding orcs that do nothing but relentlessly attack. You can roll the instant that your animation finishes, and the light attack animations are quite short. Near the end of the game, our tactic was to stun or freeze the enemies as soon as possible using special attacks that do tons of damage (like the explosive bolts or the overhand cleaves) and we were able to come out unscathed in most encounters. I honestly think that the combat in War in the North is really great even if it is extremely simple. Giving every character ranged and melee attacks along with all the co-operative attacks you can do made the game one of the most fun that I've ever played in co-op. I definitely recommend it if you have two friends that are into action RPG games. We are going to milk at least three run throughs out of it easily. Not meaning to derail, but after another session of play I've come away from War in the North feeling more positive than before (we're almost through our first playthrough, I think). Not enough to reverse my general opinion, but it's pretty decent for a tie-in franchise game. I've been playing my Dwarf focused on raw two-handed damage, which means maximizing the defensive mechanics. It's definitely possible to avoid most damage if you do it right... but it still doesn't feel as fluid or entertaining as the older games, and it doesn't really gain any depth to make up for it.
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Jan 4, 2013 13:13
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Ashcan Pete posted:Pretty much every fighting game makes you deal with timing your attacks and understanding how you're going to be left vulnerable and for how long. It's part of what gives you and the computer ways to respond to one another's actions. Even in games where you can cancel, you still have to actually execute the cancel properly whether it be for offense or defense. Oh yeah, I have no issue with it in fighting games at all, I think the only reason uninterruptable actions in Dark Souls get my goat is that it also applies to consumable items. Actually to continue Game Mechanics Chat and relate it to the thread a bit more, I've always found my tolerance for hard games to be like, a 'negative correlation' line graph between time/effort of a task and severity of punishment. So a game that's really hard, but will just slap you on the wrist upon death, I'm pretty cool with. The infinite lives in MegaMan Dongs (though I've yet to beat any of it), the frequent checkpoints in Bayonetta, having Infinite lives in Ikaruga are all things I can put up with without complaining. But when the severity of the punishment begins to outweigh the time I'd invest, it's then "Too hard for me". With that Spike Man stage, the long wind section with no checkpoints would be a game-ender for me, even with the infinite lives. The approach towards death penalties in Silver Surfer would have me not touch that game with a 10ft pole.
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Jan 4, 2013 17:06
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It's easy to come off as categorical when talking about this sort of thing. Sometimes I feel games can have terrible systems for checkpoints or learning curve, but the gameplay is fun enough that I keep trying anyway. Actraiser 2 was like that for me.
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Jan 4, 2013 18:03
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Simply Simon posted:spikes I also didn't know how to dodge Spike Man's above ground super fast back and forth attack at first. But I figured out that you can jump over him while standing next to the walls; he bounces away so fast you won't land on him. I felt pretty smart for figuring that out, which I suppose is the point! The pokey attack on the other hand...I've never avoided it successfully.
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Jan 4, 2013 18:06
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That wind section would be fine if it didnt wait so long to get back every time you failed a jump on the top section. At least you can skip it entirely if you useHack man's "weapon" and switch it out before MM hits the top of the screen. seriously that weapon is the best. edit: seems spikeman's ceiling attack is not an instant kill thankfully (or not anymore if it was) Tengames fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jan 4, 2013 |
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Jan 4, 2013 22:03
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Six Of Spades posted:Oh yeah, I have no issue with it in fighting games at all, I think the only reason uninterruptable actions in Dark Souls get my goat is that it also applies to consumable items. I'm curious, what do you think of games like Roguelikes where permadeath is a common feature, but its always intended for fights to be perfectly manageable if you have a general idea of what your character is capable of doing.
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Jan 4, 2013 23:01
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I really like that that first sandfall is required to progress, it lets you know what to expect when your life is on the line later.
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Jan 4, 2013 23:14
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Lilli posted:I'm curious, what do you think of games like Roguelikes where permadeath is a common feature, but its always intended for fights to be perfectly manageable if you have a general idea of what your character is capable of doing. I reasonably enjoy Binding of Isaac, because the play sessions are rather short, even when you're doing well. I've not played any others, mostly for my aforesaid reason of a lack of patience. I think my personal comfort zone for a game's difficulty is one that lets me retry with little effort, and can be broken down into manageable chunks. So each section is struggle, but you can stop after a short while and skill feel like progress has been made. I don't really play games for multi-hour stretches any more, so that might be why!
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Jan 5, 2013 00:10
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Six Of Spades posted:I reasonably enjoy Binding of Isaac, because the play sessions are rather short, even when you're doing well. I've not played any others, mostly for my aforesaid reason of a lack of patience. I love roguelikes. I'm not that good at them but having everything be a struggle for resources and survival is a fun time for me in video game land. If you're willing to try one that can be broken into chunks, give Dungeons of Dredmor a try. It's generally easier than most roguelikes but there's still some variable difficulty and it's readily broken down into floors to measure progress.
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Jan 5, 2013 00:57
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Ah, I only just found this thread! I loving love Gradius V and am really happy that there's finally a proper LP being made for it. I'm actually amazed that you're showing stuff I've never seen before, too. I've beaten Gradius V several times, and I had no idea that bosses would use different patterns if you let them sit long enough. The tentacle-boss, in particular, really wowed me with that attack where it points all of the arms at you and just starts firing like crazy. I really like your commentary, Dectilon. Your insights on hard games are really interesting.  ...I really want them to make another Gradius game, now. It'll probably never happen, though.  Also, been watching the other videos in the thread and those are great too. E: As a random aside, are you going to be showing off some of the harder difficulty boss fights? The very first boss in the game, in particular, adds a pretty nasty trick on Hardest difficulty... BlackFrost fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Jan 5, 2013 |
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Jan 5, 2013 09:45
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Thanks! Yeah, I'll show off a bit of loop 2 at the very end.
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Jan 5, 2013 13:55
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Levels 11-13 (Pictured: Programmer being held responsible for the Stage 6 Warp only opening once. Afterwards, he was assigned to bird-placement duty on 1988's Ninja Gaiden.) If you thought the first Crystal Ball was bad, this one is criminal. The big pile of re-spawning treasures that holds the Sphinx to open the second Crystal Ball room is, for my money, the most frustrating thing in the game, followed closely by actually picking the item up and the final level of the game. I honestly don't even get why the maze is a thing in the first place. The only difference between having the main door in the middle of the fire lake go straight to the Crystal Ball Room and forcing the maze and Big Pile of Bullshit on you is that one of them makes you far more likely to turn off the game without ever knowing that the Crystal Balls were a thing. Regarding the levels seen today, the basic level design philosophy seems to be a demented version of "How to Draw Kirby". First you draw some fire, then you drop some blocks, add a ton of monsters and presto! I actually like this kind of level better than the claustrophobic ones because it maximizes your ability to control your own destiny. In the really cramped levels, sometimes you're just going to die because the game will spawn enemies in the exact correct places to completely pen you in. (Similar things happen in Royal Room 13!) With these fire levels, there's a ton of room to maneuver making it more difficult for the game to drop dudes on your head. Further, the terrain is much better suited to the mechanics of the game than a tiny passageway could ever be. Anyways, we're almost there! Only a few more levels remain!
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Jan 5, 2013 21:21
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 Update Time! After sacrificing a virgin goat to the altar of Beelzebub and selling my soul to Satan himself, I finally manage to finish this game in hard mode. There. It's done. God bless. Not kidding - these last two levels (plus the final boss) are the most bullshit parts of the entire game. No mission briefings, no clear direction, maze-like levels, and a crippling descent into alcoholism awaits us in this final update! Missions 8-9: Youtube Thank you for joining me on this little segue; it was, uh... fun? Yeah, fun!
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Jan 5, 2013 23:48
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MeccaPrime posted:Missions 8-9: Youtube Not only that the whole game looks like it's played like a certain level from Earthworm Jim, no, the sound for shooting is also the same. It is a really horrible concept of moving, good on you for finishing it
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Jan 6, 2013 00:37
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That game just doesn't look like it's made for combat at all. It didn't look like the final boss tested your skills at the game so much as "how long can you sway back and forth at the top of the screen?!". Also I'm disappointed that the boss wasn't a giant pig.
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Jan 6, 2013 00:44
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