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Fourth try fighting Margaret. Got her down really low, then fell to Ultra-Supreme Megidoalon. Wasted my drat Enduring Soul earlier in the fight. Back to the drawing board. 
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Jan 14, 2013 23:06
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Larsson posted:Fourth try fighting Margaret. Got her down really low, then fell to Ultra-Supreme Megidoalon. Wasted my drat Enduring Soul earlier in the fight. If you're really having trouble with the fight, there's always the "Retry Battles" option!  Honestly that fight was pretty much a total pushover for me. I stuck to a physically-inclined team with Yosuke/Chie/Kanji and Yoshitsune. Yosuke casts Masukukaja/Wind of Youth and no-one ever gets hit while Chie and Kanji buff the team up Revolution and Matarukaja. On the turns when you're not buffing, Power Charge. Yosuke having Wind of Youth is also really helpful for healing off the HP casted and keeping up Masukukaja. Make ample use of Rise's Full Analysis, so you know when to save your Power Charges for when the boss doesn't resist it in some fashion. I had the boss cast Diaharan when they only had a sliver of health left, but the fight really wasn't all that frustrating or long for me.
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Jan 15, 2013 00:25
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I'll consider it. I stopped leveling Chie past a certain point, but it's nothing adjusted experience and Golden Hand grinding can't fix.
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Jan 15, 2013 00:43
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W.T. Fits posted:Most of the major characters in the story represent the various Arcana of the Tarot. Conversely, their Shadows (if they appear) represent the Reversed form of that Arcana. Mitsuo's Arcana is the Hermit. Normally, in the Fool's Journey, the Hermit represents a wise, old figure who lives in isolation that the Fool seeks out to learn wisdom from. But Mitsuo isn't just the Hermit; he's the Hermit Reversed. A gibbering madman with no real wisdom or insight. A charlatan who just wants recognition and notoriety that, on some level, he knows he doesn't really deserve. That's why the Investigation Team wasn't sure which one was the real Mitsuo and which was the Shadow at first. And it's also why his Shadow claims that it's empty; Mitsuo embraces the dark, negative aspects of himself, leaving nothing for the Shadow to embody. When you defeat it, it fades away because with Mitsuo's corrupted ego willingly embracing his own inner darkness, it has nothing it can use to maintain itself as a distinct, separate entity. That's actually really interesting, is there a way to check what arcana non Slink characters are in game or is it something you are just deducing from logic? Also, I'd like to hear you explanation on why in the November dungeon there isn't a shadow Namatame and he instead gets used as a condom for shadow gearhead jesus to come gently caress the party.
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Jan 15, 2013 03:24
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Another Mitsuo possibility: He's literally mentally unstable and thus unable to master his own ego.
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Jan 15, 2013 03:27
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DeathSandwich posted:That's actually really interesting, is there a way to check what arcana non Slink characters are in game or is it something you are just deducing from logic? Also, I'd like to hear you explanation on why in the November dungeon there isn't a shadow Namatame and he instead gets used as a condom for shadow gearhead jesus to come gently caress the party. You can see a Shadow's arcana when you press the Analysis option. This applies to bosses too, iirc.
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Jan 15, 2013 03:40
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Captain McStabbin posted:This is actually really neat, and I would love it if you could give more explanations as to how each character represents the arcana of the tarot deck. DeathSandwich posted:That's actually really interesting, is there a way to check what arcana non Slink characters are in game or is it something you are just deducing from logic? Also, I'd like to hear you explanation on why in the November dungeon there isn't a shadow Namatame and he instead gets used as a condom for shadow gearhead jesus to come gently caress the party. I'll be honest here, I don't really know much about the Tarot. Most of what was in that analysis I posted can be found over at the Megami Tensei Wikia. 
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Jan 15, 2013 03:47
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About the November dungeon boss, which I will put in spoiler tags for your convenience Namatame and Kuninosagiri: According to the wiki, Kuninosagiri doesn't appear to have an associated arcana, but it most resembles a reversed Justice arcana. If the Justice arcana represents a proper sense of right and wrong and the desire to change things for the better out of the greater good, then Justice Reversed is a warped sense of right and wrong. It is driven to change the world based on this incorrect philosophy, and not out of a need to set things right but instead a need to be recognized and respected/feared. Essentially, believing yourself to be right no matter what evidence appears to the contrary. Namatame believes that he is doing right by "saving" the people he kidnaps, even though he has no idea what goes on inside the TV world, and believes that he is the only one that is able to save and protect people. That's why Kuninosagiri appears as a messiah figure with peace and love symbolism, but is still a dangerous enemy and is able to mind control your party. It is a representation of warped justice, an unfounded sense of right and wrong willing to force its views upon others at all costs. As for Shadow Namatame, his deal is a little different. The Shadow Namatame we see is not Shadow Namatame at all, but Amenosagiri or possibly Izanami. Simple as that. This is why the main character is not satisfied with naming Namatame as the killer: Shadow Namatame and Namatame don't match up. I forget exactly what Shadow Namatame says, but his views are sort of anathema to Namatame's messiah complex, and he does not consider what Namatame is doing as "saving" people. It's entirely possible that what we saw was, in fact, Shadow Namatame, but it gets hijacked (remember how Adachi had been possessed after defeating what appeared to be his shadow self, immediately leading into the fight with Amenosagiri?) and his main issue - the messiah complex - gets pushed back in favor of Amenosagiri/Izanami's point of view. I find this stuff really interesting, and it's one of those things that make the game so compelling and engaging.
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Jan 15, 2013 05:51
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And on the sixth day, Margaret was slain...or she just went back to the Velvet Room. Went all physical for the fight. I knew I had her when she had less than a fifth of her health and hadn't cast TurboMegaDeath yet. She hit me with it, but I had a Rebirth Prophecy equipped in case of emergency. Overstocking on Mecca Leaves and Balms of Life paid off handsomely. Many thanks, friend 
corn on the cop fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 06:02
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Pollyanna posted:As for Shadow Namatame, his deal is a little different. The Shadow Namatame we see is not Shadow Namatame at all, but Amenosagiri or possibly Izanami. It's neither of them. When Shadow Namatame appears, the group is so focused on the idea that he's the killer that they create a false narrative in their minds. This created the image seen on the Midnight Channel at that time, in the same way that Rise's image on the Midnight Channel was sexualized beyond reality. Izanami's "window" shows you what you want to see, not what's actually true. Also, neither Ameno-sagiri nor Izanami had any real reason to interfere with the murder case. Arist fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 06:11
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MrAristocrates posted:It's neither of them. When Shadow Namatame appears, the group is so focused on the idea that he's the killer that they create a false narrative in their minds. This created the image seen on the Midnight Channel at that time, in the same way that Rise's image on the Midnight Channel was sexualized beyond reality. Izanami's "window" shows you what you want to see, not what's actually true. Whoops, you're right. I'm dumb. 
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Jan 15, 2013 06:28
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If anyone else has arcana related information for the shadows please share. Information like this is what makes me love the series even more.
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Jan 15, 2013 07:33
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ShadeofDante posted:If anyone else has arcana related information for the shadows please share. Information like this is what makes me love the series even more.   I don't really expect over 70 S. Links but iunno, it'd be nice to just toss one or two in there, especially if you're going to have a couple of S. Links be plot freebies.
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Jan 15, 2013 07:55
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Chie: Shadow Chie is the reversed Chariot, obviously. It symbolises envy, addiction, and low self-confidence; and in relationships, an abusive and controlling nature. That's the only one I know.
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Jan 15, 2013 08:38
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Spoiler tags for all the bosses and arcana babble. They go in order so from the first boss to the last. Yosuke: Shadow Yosuke is the Magician reverse. A Magician is a card about infinite possibilities that are granted by the Magician's tools. The magician is especially supposed to be a skilled speaker, which works for Yosuke well as he is the most talkative and can be persuasive when the time comes (in the group meetings he's almost always the one leading conversation and is easily the most invested in the case after what happened to Saki). In the Tarot story the Magician is the one who presents the Fool with the tools he needs to start his journey. Reverse magician is about no possibilities and turning speaking skills into ways to manipulate and trick people. Shadow Yosuke exemplifies this well. He talks about how he hates living in the countryside and how he's so bored of everything and how the power of Personas and the TV world have finally given him something to do. He has no possibilities, lacks the tools to create possibilities and instead has resigned to destroying things rather than creating them. Spoilers for after the November Dungeon, but before the December Dungeon: Reverse Magician also works well in the case of Namatame and deciding whether to chuck him into the tv or not. Yosuke is the one who leads that discussion and is eliminating any possibility of finding the truth by accepting that Namatame must be the killer and that he must be killed for his crimes. He has lost control of his emotions and is using his charismatic speaking skills as a way to convince everyone to do what he wants. Chie was already explained so I'll skip it. Yukiko: Shadow Yukiko is the Reverse (High) Priestess. The Priestess is a card that can be compared to the Magician. The Magician is a card about grounded possibilities. Priestess is about secrets and impossible things coming to light, only if the Fool is willing to look past the veil. She is knowledgeable and controlled. Shadow Yukiko is a chaotic shadow who demands a prince come to stay by her side, because she knows she is useless without someone to save her. She uses her secrets not to illuminate mystery, but to take revenge and be hurtful. There is no capability to make decision (like how says she wants three princes instead of one when the team comes to save Yukiko) and so she constantly looks for answers that can never be found. Kanji: Shadow Kanji is the Reverse Emperor. An Emperor is normally a father figure or a man seeking some form of control of his life and the decisions he makes. Kanji fits well in this because his character arc is all about his decision to not let the opinions of others hold him back from what he loves to do, as they have in the past. That while not everyone will accept him, there will be people who do and he has to understand them as well if he wants to be understood in return. Shadow Kanji is the Reverse Emperor because he demands understanding and if those demands are not met then he becomes angry and unleashes his wrath upon others. He is not an emperor to takes time to rule his kingdom, but makes demands of it to his own liking. He has no control, only selfish desires he wants fulfilled no matter what the cost. Rise: The Reverse Lover. Lovers itself is an interesting card. It can be about love, but is also commonly about making a choice about what or who you love. Rise is The Lovers not just because she is flirty, but because her journey is about making a choice with her decision to quit the business and going through the motions of the changes caused by her choice. She has to think on whether she loved being an idol because she liked it, or because it got her attention and fame that eventually began to weigh down on her to the point where she decided to quit. Reverse Lovers happens when you made a choice that was wrong and it starts breaking you apart or you can't make any decision at all. It is also about desire grounded in lust. Shadow Rise wanted to show everyone who she really was and hated how everyone judged her based on "Risette" and that it was impossible to be the real her. She has no choice in how she is looked at and desires that choice more than anything. When Shadow Risette becomes a Persona it is because Rise has understood that "Risette" and "Rise" are two separate entities that need to be balanced, much like how The Lovers is normally pictured with two people. Her Social Link journey reflects this in how she realizes she must join the two entities and not ignore either one because both are part of her in some way. Teddie: The Reverse Star. The Star is a very optimistic card. It represents that there is something out there shining and one day it will grant you help in your time of need (much like wishing under the shooting star). Teddie is the Star because, while he might not always be useful, when the right time comes he truly shines and shows that he can be as helpful as anyone else around him. Stars can grant passage to the future, like how the North Star is a guide to lead travelers like the Fool back on the right path. Shadow Teddie is the Reverse Star because he does not shine and does not present a good future. He taunts Teddie and the others as fools for searching for the truth and sees all life as futile and meaningless. There is only darkness and no hope for a bright tomorrow. Shadow Mitsuo was already explained Naoto: Shadow Naoto is the Reverse (Wheel of) Fortune. Fortune is a card of good luck and is usually known as a karmatic wheel. That good things and bad things happen, but the wheel is always turning and creating new possibility and opportunities from the constant motions. Reverse Fortune is bad because it doesn't just mean bad luck, but it means there is no movement at all. The wheel is not turning and a standstill where no progress is made is created. Shadow Naoto works well in this because she feels herself stuck in a situation where she cannot advance because there is something stopping the wheel from turning. She believes her fortune has stopped because she is being treated like a child, not only by her co-workers but also by Naoto herself. In her mind becoming a boy means the wheel will turn again and she will have fortune once more. When Naoto realizes she does need to change herself and accepts that, while she may be unfortunately treated as a child now, one day she will become an adult like she wants and it is a matter of waiting for the wheel to turn that way. Fortune will come with time, as karma always pays. Kunino-sagiri was also explained Spoiler for the true culprit: Adachi: While Adachi's card is Jester/Hunger depending on how it maxes out, the card is numbered under 0 like the Fool. And Adachi is very much the Reverse Fool. A Fool is a blank slate who begins his journey without knowing where it will take him, but always stays optimistic and open to exploring the world. Adachi has closed off his world and rejected it as boring and meaningless, so he has no future and no chance to even start a journey. In the Social Link there is always an old woman who tries to look after him because she reminds him of her son. Rather than being kind and accepting of the old lady's attempts to be friendly with him, he constantly seeks to avoid her every chance he gets while dismissing her as senile and annoying. The parallel between Adachi and the MC is especially pointed out with his dialogue with after the final battles (if you get to Rank 6 of his Slink before clearing Heaven). In that short dialogue he asks why he failed, while the MC succeeded. No matter what the answer, Adachi says something along the lines of "maybe if I had done what you did, and reached out to others, this wouldn't have happened". He is the Yang to the MC's Yin. Both are Fools, only one was open to the world and the other shut himself out from it. Ok wow that was a lot of text and I might have gotten some things wrong, so correct me if you want I don't have a ton of knowledge about tarot cards, but I did use what little I know to make reasonable explanations.
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Jan 15, 2013 09:42
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There's a story to the tarot cards? poo poo, I must've missed that. Or is it just meant to be the basic progression of 0 to 21? That was pretty awesome, thanks. I might have to think of how the non-party member S.Links work out, as well as (P4A spoilers) Mitsuru, Akihiko, Aigis and Labrys' shadows.
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Jan 15, 2013 10:10
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Having just beaten this I will say I was pleasantly surprised at all the additions ATLUS added, I was pretty weary back when it came out in Japan since everyone only talked about the new s link and ~waifu content~ and in general I didn't think P4 was that great. but I needed a new game to play and picked it up with a gift card and, overall I was pretty happy with it. It didn't change some of the core issues I have with the game itself but they definitely put a lot more effort than I expected in improving the P4 experience, both from a mechanical and story perspective. New Dungeon Spoilers: The new dungeon definitely felt like it could have been alot cooler/more challenging than it ended up being. I felt it was just tedious and not really hard at all, and Marie was an absolute joke of a boss. Cool music though. The new Epilogue was nice too, definitely more satisfying than the old one. Also, the second hot springs scene was pretty eyerolling and fanservicey but I'm not going to count that as a mark against the game or anything. The other new scenes were pretty hilarious, especially the beach one. Overall while I still think P3 had the stronger story and main theme going for it, this port definitely solidified to me that P4 had the stronger cast and group dynamic by a long shot.
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Jan 15, 2013 10:36
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Pollyanna posted:There's a story to the tarot cards? poo poo, I must've missed that. Or is it just meant to be the basic progression of 0 to 21? The non-party member S.Link in Persona 4 generally are reflections of the card they are assigned to in some way. I actually like a lot of the choices they made. Tower is just a teenage boy who feels he must live up to expectations set for him or he will be a failure that nobody likes and Justice is Nanako, who must find a balance and compromise in her life and accept that her father has suffered as much as she has, so she mustn't be against him or think that he doesn't care.
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Jan 15, 2013 11:05
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That's really cool and I'm gonna link a lot of people to it Thanks!
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Jan 15, 2013 11:10
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lotus circle posted:
Interesting thing about Teddie, and I think I heard about it in this thread, but Shadow Teddie is from the Moon Arcana if you scan him during the fight. I can't quite remember the reason behind it, but I remember it was a pretty neat detail.
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Jan 15, 2013 17:05
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That is because There's a good chance Teddie's Shadow was being hijacked by Izanami or Ameno-Sagiri.
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Jan 15, 2013 17:15
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Captain Oblivious posted:That is because Where does the whole bit about Izanami or Ameno-Sagiri taking control of people's shadows come up? I didn't really catch this in my first P4 playthrough, so was it added in P4G or did I miss something between the lines?
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Jan 15, 2013 17:42
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Interesting thing about Teddie, and I think I heard about it in this thread, but Shadow Teddie is from the Moon Arcana if you scan him during the fight. I can't quite remember the reason behind it, but I remember it was a pretty neat detail. Generally speaking Reverse cards mean that something is being blocked or is not being met to full realization. It can be fixed, but Reverse card readings are almost never a positive thing. I can't remember from a story perspective why Moon was chosen instead of Star, but Reverse Star or Moon can work for him (though I still think Reverse Star fits better) lotus circle fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 19:07
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Rascyc posted:Where does the whole bit about Izanami or Ameno-Sagiri taking control of people's shadows come up? I didn't really catch this in my first P4 playthrough, so was it added in P4G or did I miss something between the lines? It's theorized because you can see the Sagiri's eye inside Shadow Teddie's head.
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Jan 15, 2013 19:15
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Shadow Teddie's nihilistic dialogue is also reminiscent of Sagiri, and unlike the other shadows, he directs his speech toward the whole group instead of just Teddie.
CandyCrazy fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 19:38
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What if teddie is one of the gods/goddesses that work under Izanami like Marie was
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Jan 15, 2013 20:11
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Actually, now that I think about it, isn't Amenosagiri a manifestation of the will of humanity? So technically it's both what people want to see and Amenosagiri/Izanami's will at the same time. Or maybe I'm confused. Also, regarding Teddie, the anime shows that part of Amenosagiri was in fact inside Shadow Teddie (seen when Yuu breaks it open).
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Jan 15, 2013 20:16
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lotus circle posted:I can't remember from a story perspective why Moon was chosen instead of Star, but Reverse Star or Moon can work for him (though I still think Reverse Star fits better) I believe that Moon can also represent deception, which makes sense if the shadow is being somewhat hijacked. Heck, this explanation right here shows exactly why Igor drew a Moon at the start off the game. http://www.biddytarot.com/tarot-card-meanings/major-arcana/moon/ Moon is a pretty representative card for the whole game. Nessa fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 20:36
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lotus circle posted:The non-party member S.Link in Persona 4 generally are reflections of the card they are assigned to in some way. I actually like a lot of the choices they made. Tower is just a teenage boy who feels he must live up to expectations set for him or he will be a failure that nobody likes and Justice is Nanako, who must find a balance and compromise in her life and accept that her father has suffered as much as she has, so she mustn't be against him or think that he doesn't care. Tower is probably one of my favorite non-party S. Links in Persona 4. Disaster strikes, sparked by foolish pride. You go from being on top of the world to being cast down and the tower you stood upon comes crashing down around you. And then you have two choices; you can lay there in the rubble and feel sorry for yourself... or you can pick yourself back up, brush yourself off, and learn from the ordeal. Sure, you've suffered... but you've grown stronger for it. A Reversed Tower means that either you didn't learn from your ordeal (i.e. you decided to just lay in the rubble and feel sorry for yourself) or that the disaster was narrowly averted, and you remain unable to advance on your journey because of your pride getting in the way.
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Jan 15, 2013 20:49
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I love you all for all of this Tarot Talk.  I could read this stuff all day. Astrology and Tarot have always fascinated me, so I'm always thrilled when they are used as plot points in media. It may all just be fun and games, but it all makes for a fascinating way to label characters.
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Jan 15, 2013 21:12
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I'm in the November Dungeon right now. I was told that if I beat the boss, time automatically skips to the last day to save Nanako. Is this true? If so, when's the last day? I figure I should spend as many of those days grinding and leveling up social links as I can.
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Jan 16, 2013 02:35
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Detective No. 27 posted:I'm in the November Dungeon right now. I was told that if I beat the boss, time automatically skips to the last day to save Nanako. Is this true? If so, when's the last day? I figure I should spend as many of those days grinding and leveling up social links as I can. I think you might be referring to the December dungeon, actually. I don't think the November dungeon has a time skip.
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Jan 16, 2013 02:37
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Detective No. 27 posted:I'm in the November Dungeon right now. I was told that if I beat the boss, time automatically skips to the last day to save Nanako. Is this true? If so, when's the last day? I figure I should spend as many of those days grinding and leveling up social links as I can. No, the december dungeon skips forward. Save the december dungeon until the 21 or 22.
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Jan 16, 2013 02:37
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Detective No. 27 posted:I'm in the November Dungeon right now. I was told that if I beat the boss, time automatically skips to the last day to save Nanako. Is this true? If so, when's the last day? I figure I should spend as many of those days grinding and leveling up social links as I can. No, it's the dungeon after you save Nanako in Heaven/Paradise that skips. When you finish that dungeon it skips to Dec. 23rd.
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Jan 16, 2013 02:37
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Detective No. 27 posted:I'm in the November Dungeon right now. I was told that if I beat the boss, time automatically skips to the last day to save Nanako. Is this true? If so, when's the last day? I figure I should spend as many of those days grinding and leveling up social links as I can. That's incorrect, there's no timeskip after the November dungeon. There is however, a timeskip after the December dungeon. You should complete that one on the 22nd for maximum social linking. edit: drat, you guys are fast.
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Jan 16, 2013 02:38
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Looks like she got the dungeons mixed up then. Thanks!
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Jan 16, 2013 02:42
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So is it possible to break the hermit quest to catch the guardian? For whatever reason the I've gone through the old man's dialog options like 3 times each and he's never mentioned Inaba Jewel Beetles to me, so I am unable to catch them in the shrine. Am I hosed on this quest or is there some other prerequisite to open up the river guardian?
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Jan 16, 2013 03:20
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DeathSandwich posted:So is it possible to break the hermit quest to catch the guardian? For whatever reason the I've gone through the old man's dialog options like 3 times each and he's never mentioned Inaba Jewel Beetles to me, so I am unable to catch them in the shrine. Am I hosed on this quest or is there some other prerequisite to open up the river guardian? I've been unable to get him to mention either guardian as well, but I am able to catch jewel beetles by de-bugging the garden during winter.
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Jan 16, 2013 03:24
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I can't attest as to whether it can break or not, but he never mentions the bug by name. You may have already done this, but just to safe the process is: 1). Try to fish at the ocean, which fails. 2). Talk to the old man about it, he'll say you need'll to catch the Guardian. 3). Ask about the bait, which I think he says is some sort of "shiny" bug, but never says the bug by name. 4). You should then be able to catch the bugs. Assuming you've done #1-#3, this is the one you can't get right?
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Jan 16, 2013 03:33
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Eek, got a bit screenshot-happy and ended up with about 150 in-game shots. Got some rad ones of the Epilogue though, one of which I'm using as my startup screen. Now that my NG+ playthrough is finished...it's time to shelf the game for a while. 
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Jan 16, 2013 03:37
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