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Monicro posted:I don't normally partake in these discussions anymore since I've already done so a lot, but gently caress it here goes NCR is for me the worst of all factions. It is a big and steaming pile of corruption, incompetence and stagnating poo poo. It Don't get me wrong, there are many good and cool guys all around NCR but the head is rotten and I might be simplistic but when the head is rotten there is nothing to do but chop it. I don't know if it was intentional from Obsidian but I was totally pro-NCR on Fallout 2 and every single time I play New Vegas it pains me to see what a horrible crap it has become. If there was a choice where you join a revolutionary coup from inside NCR I would do it. Check Thomas Hildern, he IS a ruthless and cold motherfucker AND he doesn't give no fucks about anyone. People treat House like poo poo and they are ok with leaving that bastard on charge. I will never side with them. It has everything I despise and I'm supposed to take it and shove it because they have the "good values of society". I might be taking the game too seriously but as a Peruvian (southamerican) I know when I see a corrupt government trying to finger me pretending they are the good guys. It could be worse tho, I could be Arcade. turboraton fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Jan 16, 2013 |
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Jan 16, 2013 09:59
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SlothfulCobra posted:House isn't a wacko libertarian nutjob like Andrew Ryan. He's seen the old ways of democracy lead nations to cause the end of days, and he's not having any of that again. He's basically just decided that everything would be better if mankind just followed his plans. He's really only 'libertarian' because he's OK with all the drug dealing, gambling, and prostitution going on. He can't really stop those vices, because every other town is doing it. The Securitrons can lay down the law when bullets start flying, but beyond that their pretty poo poo. House is setting himself up as a benevolent dictator, which is pretty much the antithesis of most libertarians. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Jan 16, 2013 |
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Jan 16, 2013 10:05
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turboraton posted:NCR is for me the worst of all factions. It is big and steaming pile of corruption, incompetence and stagnating poo poo. It Don't get me wrong, there are many good and cool guys all around NCR but the head is rotten and I might be simplistic but when the head is rotten there is nothing to do but chop it. I don't know if it was intentional from Obsidian but I was totally pro-NCR on Fallout 2 and every single time I play New Vegas it pains me to see what a horrible crap it has become. If there was a choice where you join a revolutionary coup from inside NCR I would do it. Yeah, the vibes of "We are here to save you from yourselves, also we'll help ourselves to any resources you might have thanks" imperialism bullshit are so overt I'm surprised anyone bought into it. Granted, I don't know if corrupt bureaucracy is still worse than brainwashed primitive slave army. quote:It could be worse tho, I could be Arcade. And as it turns out, one of Arcade's happiest endings is when House wins, Arcade gives up on his idealism and becomes a family doctor back west  Throw another point on the House pile.
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Jan 16, 2013 10:10
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Wolfsheim posted:
Man, I really like what they have done with Arcade / The Followers. I also really like the quotes from J.E. Sawyer. "Arcade's endings are intended to reflect that no one is damaged more by reality than the idealist. He does his best to be practical and rational, but there is a strong idealist streak in him/the Followers in general."
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Jan 16, 2013 10:14
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On the topic of sneering imperialists, does "Fight The Power!" give you +2 DT by default or only when facing faction enemies?
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Jan 16, 2013 10:22
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Speedball posted:On the topic of sneering imperialists, does "Fight The Power!" give you +2 DT by default or only when facing faction enemies? According to the fallout wiki, the +2 DT only applies when facing those enemies and those enemies must be wearing the factions' armors.
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Jan 16, 2013 11:17
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Wolfsheim posted:Yeah, the vibes of "We are here to save you from yourselves, also we'll help ourselves to any resources you might have thanks" imperialism bullshit are so overt I'm surprised anyone bought into it. But all the choices bar Yes Man are imperialist. House wakes up 200 years later, takes his three tribes, replaces their culture with his own, and then dumps the rest of the tribes/New Vegas scavengers into Outer Vegas/Freeside, and leaves them to their own devices. He literally takes over the Mojave, already inhabited by a bunch of people and tells them he's in charge now, at the barrel of a Securitron - look what happened to Vault 22. The Legion is literally imperialism/empire incarnate. The NCR is possibly the least bad choice, because at least whoever they'll take over will have some semblance of representation and won't have their entire culture wiped out. I mean, they're all trying to restore some idealistic version of the Old World empires to start with (most of the factions are), at least the NCR picked a good piece to idolize and lionize. House reminds me a lot of The Master actually - same incredibly smart man with a plan for a utopic wasteland hooked up to a computer and unable to leave a pre-war relic.
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Jan 16, 2013 11:28
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Just with a simple still and a modest supply of drugs, the Followers did more good to the communities of Mojave in the short timespan of the game than House with his robots, electricity and whatnot in decades. His failed "economy" based on casinos seems more harmful than beneficial, it produces externalities and conflicts which he refuses to acknowledge and solve. It brought to the Mojave the worst elements of the NCR and marginalized the natives. It's possible he would eventually turn things for the better, but his approach is ineffectual and his priorities skewed. Both the NCR planners and the Followers (the neutral path) have a better idea about how to improve the situation (agriculture as the foundation on which to build industry and services, not vice versa as House imagines), and pooling House's idling resources with those of these factions seems to be the best way forward. That being said, I regretted the only way to overthrow House was to kill him. He wasn't really evil, and he was a brilliant bureaucrat. Wolfsheim posted:Yeah, the vibes of "We are here to save you from yourselves, also we'll help ourselves to any resources you might have thanks" imperialism bullshit are so overt I'm surprised anyone bought into it. The kind of NCR attention House attracted probably speaks more about his ability to grasp impact of his own policies than about the NCR at large. The most apparent thing about its presence is that it works hard on restoring basic infrastructure: Irrigation, power grid, farming. All of which the Mojave population needs urgently. People in the game often bitch about how horrible the NCR is, but there's little obvious evidence that it's true any more. Many of the conflicts between the NCR and the local populace stemmed from the sort of anarchy that flourished under House's rule - and if the Courier decides to use diplomacy and promote cross-faction dialogue, the NCR almost always turns out to be reasonable and willing to negotiate with the locals. They are even able to reflect on the Bitter Springs massacre and so on.
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Jan 16, 2013 12:17
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I think it's really hard to evaluate the efficacy/justice of a society based on its depiction in Fallout: New Vegas, at least in terms of Caesar's Legion and the NCR. This is because it's a frontier society for both groups, and that's not only going to change how they run things, it's going to change how the average person lives in the territory they control. JE Sawyer already provided a pretty detailed post describing life in Legion held territory for the average person. Also, I think its pretty absurd how Obsidian's intent to color the factions with shades of grey results in people translating ambiguity into unorthodox extrapolations of strong good or strong evil. The important point is that things are grey. If people want a faction that's easily and universally good or evil, they should go play a Bethesda game. Another interesting thought I just had, and I'm not sure if its intentional or not, is the nature of conflict in Fallout. Both Caesar and House blame old social orders for conflict erupting, but they were actually resource wars precipitated by the depletion of petroleum. So, I think interesting that the two major power sources in the Mojave are a solar power and a hydro electrical power station-both of which serve as flashpoints for conflict for the emerging societies in the Mojave. prometheusbound2 fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Jan 16, 2013 |
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Jan 16, 2013 14:43
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prometheusbound2 posted:Another interesting thought I just had, and I'm not sure if its intentional or not, is the nature of conflict in Fallout. Both Caesar and House blame old social orders for conflict erupting, but they were actually resource wars precipitated by the depletion of petroleum. So, I think interesting that the two major power sources in the Mojave are a solar power and a hydro electrical power station-both of which serve as flashpoints for conflict for the emerging societies in the Mojave. It's as if War... always stays the same. That's deep, man.
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Jan 16, 2013 16:05
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It's interesting that someone pointed out that "the head is rotten" when it comes to the NCR because IMO the NCR is the one faction that doesn't really have a head. Kimball's political position is actually somewhat precarious at the start of the game- no doubt a Courier who creates an NCR victory reinforces it in spades, but the open-ended nature of the endings combined with the Courier's willingness to use his NCR reputation as a bully pulpit in several different quests that involve it lead me to believe that it would be quite possible to derail some of its worst aspects- I'm not sure people would like to hear that Col. Moore was perfectly willing to throw away the life of one of the NCR's strongest external allies (the Courier) for the sake of an exaggerated Brotherhood threat that turned out to be capable of negotiation and peace efforts in the middle of an existentially important battle at Hoover Dam. Also, the "onerous taxes" thing may need some contextualization. This is a post apocalyptic wasteland, any level of taxation above literally zero is enough to be a pretty significant increase compared with what people were previously paying.
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Jan 16, 2013 16:22
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That DICK! posted:House is pretty perfectly respectful if you just do everything he's asking you to do. I dunno, I got pretty chummy with Caesar.
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Jan 16, 2013 16:56
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2house2fly posted:I dunno, I got pretty chummy with Caesar. gently caress Rawls.
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Jan 16, 2013 18:48
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2house2fly posted:I dunno, I got pretty chummy with Caesar. That DICK! posted:gently caress Rawls. Did you guys share the "Legion" point of view with each other?  
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Jan 16, 2013 18:52
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2house2fly posted:I dunno, I got pretty chummy with Caesar.
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Jan 16, 2013 19:05
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There's a lot of good posts and I'm sure at some point I'll write an entire pro-House essay about it, but for now I'll just mention this briefly:prometheusbound2 posted:Another interesting thought I just had, and I'm not sure if its intentional or not, is the nature of conflict in Fallout. Both Caesar and House blame old social orders for conflict erupting, but they were actually resource wars precipitated by the depletion of petroleum. So, I think interesting that the two major power sources in the Mojave are a solar power and a hydro electrical power station-both of which serve as flashpoints for conflict for the emerging societies in the Mojave. I forget who it was that said the resource wars were actually totally unnecessary, as in the Fallout timeline petroleum was less and less of a valuable commodity at that point. And really, in a society where every car on the street is running on nuclear power, it's hard not to see why. And since the world powers at that point would almost certainly have realized this, it seems that the 'resource wars' were just the result of ideologically-opposed super powers clashing with each other over the closest excuse, an Iraqi WMD situation if you will. With that in mind, House and Caesar aren't far off the mark.
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Jan 16, 2013 19:19
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Nuclear cars were pretty new, petroleum still powered aircraft and war machines, plus they were fighting over oil & uranium. Says so right in the intro to the first game.
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Jan 16, 2013 19:21
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quote:War.War never changes. The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth. Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory. Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower. But war never changes. Yeah, I think you have to take the Resource Wars thing at face value.
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Jan 16, 2013 19:39
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Either way, the old ways of the world propelled the nations towards wasting away more of their resources and believing that they could just walk all over their rival nations, and eventually the old ways led the nations to just provoke the end of days. The reason for the war may have been resource scarcity, but it was still the decision of all the parties involved to respond to it by tossing around bombs that would wipe out everything.
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Jan 16, 2013 20:59
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The Resource Wars were fought in between the European nations over the last remnants of oil over there. American and China were uninvolved, since America had the Alaskan oil fields and China had it's own sources/planned to invade Alaska. American was just barely on it's way to having actually good electric/nuclear cars, though the idea of cars powered by their own nuclear reactors is kinda dumb, I think it was mroe like how the Highwayman worked in FO2: Electric, powered by kickin' rad batteries like Small Energy Cells and Microfusion Cells. Fighting over resources hosed up the rest of the world, but it's also what led to war with America and China, ie, the ground war in Alaska and eventually mainland China. No one knows what really started the Great War proper.
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Jan 16, 2013 21:20
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Yes we do, on Mothership Zeta it's proven aliens start the great war for vague unclarified reasons.
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Jan 16, 2013 21:23
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Even if the NCR is "better", victory is not better for the NCR. It needs to be stopped and forced to accept that other political entities have a right to exist without the Republic stomping all over them while shouting Freedom and sending everything of value back West. House's technological prowess and undisputed genius is just too valuable in the post-apocalypse to snuff it out because he's (rightfully) smug or because the NCR is having a big crybabby fit that they couldn't just roll over Vegas. steinrokkan posted:Many of the conflicts between the NCR and the local populace stemmed from the sort of anarchy that flourished under House's rule - and if the Courier decides to use diplomacy and promote cross-faction dialogue, the NCR almost always turns out to be reasonable and willing to negotiate with the locals. They are even able to reflect on the Bitter Springs massacre and so on. The Mojave isn't under House's rule at the game start; he's only in control of The Strip. House is perfectly reasonable with everybody too. The only exception is the BoS, because they are fundamentally hostile to literally everything he is and will never accept co-existence. Yes Man even tells you you're being an idiot by letting them live, as much as he can anyway.
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Jan 16, 2013 21:25
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Bethesda recently registered Fallout as a trademark for "entertainment services in the nature of an on-going television program set in a post-nuclear apocalyptic world." Source.
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Jan 16, 2013 21:55
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Every time I hear "Resource Wars" I flash back to Phantom 2040. Holy crap I just tried out the Them's Good Eatin' perk for the first time. I am swimming in healing items. This crap is great.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:04
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Upmarket Mango posted:Bethesda recently registered Fallout as a trademark for "entertainment services in the nature of an on-going television program set in a post-nuclear apocalyptic world."
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Jan 16, 2013 22:09
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Byzantine posted:Even if the NCR is "better", victory is not better for the NCR. It needs to be stopped and forced to accept that other political entities have a right to exist without the Republic stomping all over them while shouting Freedom and sending everything of value back West. I can buy that NCR needs to be less hawkish, but I can't buy using that as a reason to put the Legion in charge, and I can only sort of buy that as a reason to put House in charge since the incentives and irritants in the Mojave for the NCR remain (House gets a huge take of NCR gambling money, Hoover Dam electricity.)
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Jan 16, 2013 22:23
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Turtlicious posted:Yes we do, on Mothership Zeta it's proven aliens start the great war for vague unclarified reasons. No shut up that's dumb. achillesforever6 posted:Always thought Fallout would make a good TV show, though it would probably be better if it was on HBO AMC could do it, if they kept it miles away from the Walking Dead people.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:34
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I have to give some massive props to the writers of Honest Hearts. I think it's a fantastic DLC and it should truly be a bullet point in game writing on how moral choices should be written - I calmed down Joshua's inner 'demons' by not allowing him to execute Salt-Upon-Wounds but still purged the valley of White Legs, giving the Sorrows a home again, but unintentionally made them more militant and less spiritual - all while Daniel spends the rest of his life in a near-suicidal state of feeling like a failure. Happy Trails Caravan flourishes and 'civilisation' travels freely through Zion to trade with the New Canaanites due to the lack of White Legs, but tensions between the Dead Horses and Sorrows rise. I couldn't help but think that Joshua and Daniel were two of the best voice acted characters in the entire game - the comparatively verbose dialogue (compared to the rest of NV) did wonders to bring out their individual personalities and gave the voice actors time to shine. That is, so far - I've nowhere near talked to every character in the game. thumbs up. I haven't played any of the other DLC yet, in full - I just hit level 18 after entering Zion at level 12. What is technically the 'next' DLC in terms of storyline?
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Jan 16, 2013 22:35
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Upmarket Mango posted:Bethesda recently registered Fallout as a trademark for "entertainment services in the nature of an on-going television program set in a post-nuclear apocalyptic world." Hosted by Three Dog, no less. And set in Boston, except when that's a lie.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:42
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That DICK! posted:gently caress Rawls. I've watched The Wire three times and only just got that he voiced Caeser. HOLY poo poo.
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Jan 16, 2013 23:14
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Don't forget the Survivalist either. Which was possibly better than the entire rest of the Honest Hearts. And the fact that John Doman voiced Caesar is the main reason I usually listen to his dialog and don't immediately loving kill him.
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Jan 16, 2013 23:22
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Turtlicious posted:Yes we do, on Mothership Zeta it's proven aliens start the great war for vague unclarified reasons. FO3 is also where we got 200 year old nuclear explosion cars from, that somehow hadn't fallen apart or been harvested for weaponry yet although a few "inert" ones had been used to build fortifications. There's a reason people prefer NV.
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Jan 16, 2013 23:26
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Wolfsheim posted:
I want to get back to this because one of my major problems with House is that almost our whole perception of him is through what he tells you, he has a vested interest in portraying himself as basically the best, but nobody else, even people like Beatrix and Raul seem to see him as anything other than a recluse with a robot army. As much as everyone goes on about his technological genuis and being the last best hope for humanity, what does Vegas show to back that up? Its a town that seems like the most amazing thing in the world from afare, but doesn't produce anything and is totally dependant on tourism from the NCR, which it leechs money and resources off of to stay alive. Its an illusion and that's clear enough from the situation in Freeside and all the destitute gamblers heading back to NCR, if this is what House sees as the most incredible city on Earth that he would devote so much time and energy in defending it over the centuries then that says an awful lot about his true nature. To go with House I have to make an awful lot of leaps of faith that he'll totally do all those things hes talking about, but from what I can actually see in Vegas all of the infrastructure, food, water, power and all that was built by the people who lived in the mojave over the years and the NCR, with House just skimming off of them. I'll give him credit for reducing damage to Vegas during the war, but I always get the impression he just has a really good poker face rather actually being the savior of humanity. Also screw his capitalistic bullshit  .Thats just my interpretation but I think it fits pretty well in the Las Vegas setting. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jan 16, 2013 |
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Jan 16, 2013 23:54
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We know House is behind RobCo, but who was behind Vault-Tec? Enclave dudes?
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Jan 16, 2013 23:55
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SpookyLizard posted:The Resource Wars were fought in between the European nations over the last remnants of oil over there. American and China were uninvolved, since America had the Alaskan oil fields and China had it's own sources/planned to invade Alaska. American was just barely on it's way to having actually good electric/nuclear cars, though the idea of cars powered by their own nuclear reactors is kinda dumb, I think it was mroe like how the Highwayman worked in FO2: Electric, powered by kickin' rad batteries like Small Energy Cells and Microfusion Cells.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:05
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Indeed. When I said Mojave was under House's rule, it wasn't a correct statement; but he's a jealous overlord who watches over the region and denies any other actor political agency. His self-centered actions didn't help the inhabitants to organize themselves, to become united / empowered and act as a negotiating party when the NCR arrived. There was anarchy which apparently served Houses's interests well enough, and when the NCR started cultivating and settling the Wastes, he got all pissy about how dare they usurp his piece of land. What Mojave needs is a voice capable of effectively speaking for its various interests (which it found in the Courier), not a parochial dictator who is preoccupied with his narrow projects. House is a cold businessman, not a politician - and there are good reasons why we don't let businessmen run politics IRL.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:07
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Chronojam posted:FO3 is also where we got 200 year old nuclear explosion cars from, that somehow hadn't fallen apart or been harvested for weaponry yet although a few "inert" ones had been used to build fortifications. There's a reason people prefer NV. I know it sucks, but we can't just pick and choose what is canon and wha~  Seriously though, is there books or something that retcons poo poo and tries to create a real canon that isn't retarded.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:30
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turboraton posted:NCR is for me the worst of all factions. It is a big and steaming pile of corruption, incompetence and stagnating poo poo. It Don't get me wrong, there are many good and cool guys all around NCR but the head is rotten and I might be simplistic but when the head is rotten there is nothing to do but chop it. I don't know if it was intentional from Obsidian but I was totally pro-NCR on Fallout 2 and every single time I play New Vegas it pains me to see what a horrible crap it has become. If there was a choice where you join a revolutionary coup from inside NCR I would do it. Check Thomas Hildern, he IS a ruthless and cold motherfucker AND he doesn't give no fucks about anyone. People treat House like poo poo and they are ok with leaving that bastard on charge. But I guess that's not necessarily how things go. And it's not like America's turned out anything resembling perfect. Still, it's a progressive democratic mess, which is a good bit better than a regressive fascist order, or a mad hyper-capitalist utopia.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:35
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The Crotch posted:Look, just let me live this lie where Saskatchewan was the reason for the war between Canada and the US, okay? What war? We gave Canada the privilege of our troops passing through out it and summary executions for anyone not cheering them on. You canucks should be grateful America decided to annex you. Turtlicious posted:I know it sucks, but we can't just pick and choose what is canon and wha~ It starts with, really, the Fallout Bible, which is a compliation of Q&A stuff from back when BIS was around. But what really helps is pretending that FO3 doesn't exist. It helps to remove a lot of stupidity.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:37
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Eiba posted:That's a fascinating perspective. I've always viewed it as something like late 19th century America. Which is to say, really deeply and badly flawed, but built on a system that allowed for progressive reform. It seemed like a country where a mass movement could change the fundamental values of the government without the need for a revolution. Fitting for a pseudo-western setting
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Jan 17, 2013 00:40
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