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RentCavalier posted:It should be said that when people say FF13's combat system "opens up and becomes more strategic" they really just mean that enemies become absurd sacks of HP and if you don't beat every battle in the first two minutes you're royally hosed. Also, trying to expand or alter your characters' abilities in any meaningful way beyond the clearly established paths they are intended for is punished with death. I don't think that's what they meant at all, but I appreciate your generous use of hyperbole.
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Jan 26, 2013 23:58
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RentCavalier posted:It should be said that when people say FF13's combat system "opens up and becomes more strategic" they really just mean that enemies become absurd sacks of HP and if you don't beat every battle in the first two minutes you're royally hosed. Also, trying to expand or alter your characters' abilities in any meaningful way beyond the clearly established paths they are intended for is punished with death. Well thank you for speaking for me and stating exactly what I meant, because I'm a complete and total loving idiot who doesn't have his own opinion. Thank you, Something Awful forums member, RentCavalier, truly you have spoken for the entirety of people who enjoy FF13's combat system. Eggie posted:Toriyama story stuff Hahaha, did he really say that? "I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO ENJOY A VIDEO GAME, I WANT THEM TO EXPERIENCE MY STORYCRAFTING!" The irony wouldn't be so great if it weren't for how much poo poo he is full of. Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 00:10
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Speed killing things like this was fun in FF13, so I didn't end up hating the combat system as much as other people in this thread.
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Jan 27, 2013 00:11
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Yeah, I enjoyed the FFXIII system because it encouraged me to kill things quickly. FF battles are short and easy but at least FFXIII had an emphasis on trying to finish them quickly.
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Jan 27, 2013 00:14
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Perhaps it's my desperate need for validation but I always felt like the game was saying I sucked whenever I got little or no stars. That mainly happened on bosses though. The first Barthandalus fight took forever for me. But he kept killing me and killing me and my default strategy in JRPGs is, if I start dying too quickly, I play excessive and obsessive defense. Constantly healing anything and everything. It makes the fights long but before FFXIII, long fights weren't really a bad thing.
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Jan 27, 2013 00:29
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I don't get the 'if you don't beat every battle in the first two minutes you're royally hosed' part. They introduced the wound system in XIII-2 because you could make battles last forever if you were underpowered or just being really bad at it to say 'hey, you're doing something wrong here'.
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Jan 27, 2013 00:35
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Yeah, careful use of Med/Med/Sen and Sen/Sen/Sen paradigms allowed you to prolong a battle almost indefinitely if you really wanted to. If anything was a weakness of 13's combat system I think it was the combination of instant-shifting after the first one and the passive role bonuses stacking making it so that a lot of the time the best strategy seemed to be having 2-3 people in the same role simultaneously. I don't think a single one of my endgame/optional hunt paradigms had all three characters in a separate role. I guess that isn't necessarily a flaw, but I don't feel like switching between Com/Rav/Rav, Com/Com/Com, Med/Med/Med, Sab/Sab/Sab, and Sen/Sen/Sen is really what the designers intended.
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Jan 27, 2013 00:39
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RentCavalier posted:It should be said that when people say FF13's combat system "opens up and becomes more strategic" they really just mean that enemies become absurd sacks of HP and if you don't beat every battle in the first two minutes you're royally hosed. Also, trying to expand or alter your characters' abilities in any meaningful way beyond the clearly established paths they are intended for is punished with death. This is just the biggest pile. I don't remember any battle in the whole game where I went on for more than 2 minutes and lost. Granted, I didn't do much of the post game crap, but in the main game proper? I also don't understand what you mean by absurd sacs of hp because it was exceedingly rare outside of maybe the first 30 minutes of hitting pulse where generic trash fights lasted more than a minute and a half.
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Jan 27, 2013 00:40
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Failboattootoot posted:This is just the biggest pile. I don't remember any battle in the whole game where I went on for more than 2 minutes and lost. Granted, I didn't do much of the post game crap, but in the main game proper? I also don't understand what you mean by absurd sacs of hp because it was exceedingly rare outside of maybe the first 30 minutes of hitting pulse where generic trash fights lasted more than a minute and a half. it's also funny because, for example, the final L'Cie Crystal Mission monster, who is one of the toughest optional enemies, had really, really low HP. But he also had some ridiculous insta-death poo poo and shifted his tactics constantly so you had to stay on your toes. And he could also become invincible and heal, the jerk.
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Jan 27, 2013 01:00
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Blackbelt Bobman posted:it's also funny because, for example, the final L'Cie Crystal Mission monster, who is one of the toughest optional enemies, had really, really low HP.  What metric are you using where 16 million is "really, really low?" Especially when nothing else has that much, or even more. The HP values for enemies gets ridiculously large really fast, to the extent where once fights with regular encounters have maybe 5000+ in total, bosses that come on their own have several hundred thousand (because more time consuming = harder, I guess). And it just keeps rising from there.Lotus Aura fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 02:25
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Dragonatrix posted:
That is pretty low for what you deal in FFXIII. The HP values for enemies get large but so do the values for damage you deal out. If you're playing well it does not take much time at all to go through that HP. That is part of why I liked it. If you play well you buzzsaw through the enemy's HP. I mean the damage cap is 999,999. You probably won't hit that but you're going to be breaking 100,000 damage easily and probably a lot more besides that. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 02:30
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When the standard damage cap is 99,999 and that can be increased to 999,999 a a couple million HP isn't that much.
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Jan 27, 2013 02:34
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I think the biggest time exploit "hard as nails" boss battle was the boss on the top floor in that 101 levels dungeon in Final Fantasy X-2. If you changed jobs mid fight after doing roulette and then went to gunner and had a certain item equipped, Yuna would do a few million damage each turn. Especialy if you had a controller with an autofire button, you wound up destroying a boss that was supposed to take you close to 20 minutes in around 80 seconds.
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Jan 27, 2013 02:39
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WendigoJohnson posted:I think the biggest time exploit "hard as nails" boss battle was the boss on the top floor in that 101 levels dungeon in Final Fantasy X-2. If you changed jobs mid fight after doing roulette and then went to gunner and had a certain item equipped, Yuna would do a few million damage each turn. Especialy if you had a controller with an autofire button, you wound up destroying a boss that was supposed to take you close to 20 minutes in around 80 seconds. That was actually worse in the Japanese version. The exploitable item you could get that allows that was something you could get in like... chapter 2. Really trivialized the entire game.
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Jan 27, 2013 02:41
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Moreso even than the last boss in that dungeon, that item made the fight against some elemental hilariously easy. It had 40k HP and would take like no damage from physical attacks. Unless you had that item in which case Yuna would be doing 9999 damage per attack, and you'd be doing at least 5 attacks within a matter of seconds.
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Jan 27, 2013 03:50
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ImpAtom posted:That was actually worse in the Japanese version. The exploitable item you could get that allows that was something you could get in like... chapter 2. Really trivialized the entire game.
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Jan 27, 2013 03:52
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The White Dragon posted:There was a downside, though, and I'd totally take the Via Infinito US/E Catnip over the Japanese Catnip on account of the latter giving you Berserk, preventing you from ruining everything with Trigger Happy. The Berserk thing was in International, I think. The original pre-English release didn't have it.
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Jan 27, 2013 03:58
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The next FF game needs to have the most damage you can do be like 9,999,999 or something, I want that damage cap go up every game until the screen is filled with 9s.
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Jan 27, 2013 04:02
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I do like needlessly big numbers.
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Jan 27, 2013 04:03
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Failboattootoot posted:This is just the biggest pile. I don't remember any battle in the whole game where I went on for more than 2 minutes and lost. Granted, I didn't do much of the post game crap, but in the main game proper? I also don't understand what you mean by absurd sacs of hp because it was exceedingly rare outside of maybe the first 30 minutes of hitting pulse where generic trash fights lasted more than a minute and a half. Second Barthandelous fight or whatever his name was. Space Pope 2: Electric Boogaloo. Take too long and he casts doom on you and you die. Actually, pretty sure he isn't even the first boss to do so. Listen, you can truss it up all you want, but there's no actual strategy to anything involved in FF13. You allign your pieces, watch them fight for you, scratch your crotch, and either win or lose. Sometimes you tap a button, to reaffirm that you're still playing a game, but you aren't. You're just wasting your time in a flashy way, clicking on options in a never-ending litany of menus while a cast of archetypes tries to assemble words in some pale imitation of human speech. Final Fantasy 13 is a game that actively mocks you at every avenue. It wastes you time, deceives you with false promises, and ultimately leaves you sad, unfulfilled, and with 25 hours of time sunk into an experience that is neither rewarding nor engaging. The battle system is a hack job tacked upon a string of CG graphics and random art assets, stitched together by an incoherent plot and uninteresting gameplay.
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Jan 27, 2013 04:10
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Speaking of big numbers, there shouldn't be a Final Fantasy XV. They should start calling it something else, and it would help with the sequels not being named something weird like XIII-2. ^^ Yeah FF13 was pretty bad, and so far 13-2 is not good either. The story and characters are just so stupid. Maybe I'm getting tired of the stupid outfits and feathered hair and all the ITS MY DESTINY I WILL PROTECT EVERYONE crap.
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Jan 27, 2013 04:11
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After I played XIII I was very confused by the criticism of XII's Gambit system. if any game in the series plays itself, it's XIII. Also Trema is the man. And to think, a random NPC monk model froM FFX went on to become the strongest thing in Spira. (well International has an eve stronger boss I think but I didn't play that game because it's not International as far as i know)
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Jan 27, 2013 04:17
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RentCavalier posted:Second Barthandelous fight or whatever his name was. Space Pope 2: Electric Boogaloo. Take too long and he casts doom on you and you die. Actually, pretty sure he isn't even the first boss to do so. The entire point of the "the boss casts a spell which gives you a time limit" is to let you know, hey, you're taking a small eternity on this boss. Maybe you could do something besides scratch your crotch? Going "I never hit any buttons and just smash auto battle over and over" with "fights take too long" might involve the two being connected. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 04:19
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RentCavalier posted:Listen, you can truss it up all you want, but there's no actual strategy to anything involved in FF13. I can just as easily say this about any other FF game in the series and it wouldn't be any less true. 13 has an awful story, this is not news. The fact that anyone needs to repeat it at this point is astonishing, because you think it would be common logic. However, what I do like about 13 and what made me like it a lot more than most other FFs and to not completely poo poo on it like every nerd who wants another VI, VII, or X is the combat system. It's fast, there's plenty of ways to set up your encounters to benefit you and ensure your victory, lots of spells and special attacks, they did away with the concept of MP, stagger is actually a pretty neat thing and Eidolons are loving awesome. Everything meshes well together, every single addition to the gameplay compliments each other thing very well. The only problem with the gameplay is could be a bit less linear in its development and that more side quests would have been nice, but that's not game-breaking to me. I can just as easily say that FFVI is braindead as gently caress too, because all I need to do is attach an Esper to some jerk on my team and grind the gently caress out of it until I've got all of their abilities, but that's stupid because I'm not trying to play the game to its fullest ability, I'm just doing what's easy and saving myself the trouble so I can see the story that I want to bitch about so much. It is not hard to mash buttons, any idiot with a controller can do that as you've so proven with your wonderful perspective and crotch-scratching, it takes someone who actually enjoys video games to PLAY THE loving GAME. If you don't like the combat system, fair enough, that's your perspective, but don't act surprised and start making GBS threads on the game when people disagree and think you're acting dumb. EDIT: I cannot believe I typed this many words as a response to defending FF13, this is ridiculous. Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 04:36
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I really don't see why people hate auto-battle. For non boss fights it makes pointless grinding into a non-issue. You'd be mashing "Attack" ad naseum anyway to get to the boss battles in any other FF game. Oh, and I forget, apparently setting your teams up, timing your paradigm shifts, switching paradigms at the right times is "brainless mashing attack".  XIII has a lot of flaws but the battle system really isn't any of them.
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Jan 27, 2013 04:41
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I honestly never knew any of the bosses in FF13 casted any instant death spells at all until I read this thread. Do they only do it if your dumb and don't actually use buffs and debuffs and stuff to kill them in a timely matter or something because I've never actually seen it. The only spell I remember being sort of close is the final boss had that one attack where he drops this big fuckoff sword on your party, but that's not really an instant kill or anything as just a big attack that does all of the damage.
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Jan 27, 2013 04:45
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goldjas posted:I honestly never knew any of the bosses in FF13 casted any instant death spells at all until I read this thread. Do they only do it if your dumb and don't actually use buffs and debuffs and stuff to kill them in a timely matter or something because I've never actually seen it. Some bosses cast doom on your whole party if you've been fighting for 20 minutes. IIRC it leaves you with like 3 minutes to beat them. Or 20 seconds. One of the two! I forget. Orphan part 2 has a death spell (single party member), I think.
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Jan 27, 2013 04:47
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Not to say it's bad or anything, but I hate the paradigm system. I don't like being locked out of abilities I may need just because I didn't set a paradigm that has the exact combination I needed at that moment. It's needlessly restraining for a series that had tons of freedom up until that point.
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Jan 27, 2013 04:49
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SpazmasterX posted:Not to say it's bad or anything, but I hate the paradigm system. I don't like being locked out of abilities I may need just because I didn't set a paradigm that has the exact combination I needed at that moment. It's needlessly restraining for a series that had tons of freedom up until that point. It probably helps a bit to think of Paradigms as jobs/dresspheres. You don't get the ability right away, but if you flip over to that specific class you get the ability you want, the difference is obviously that 13's is faster, doesn't get permanent abilities in the menu, and has less guys and girls changing clothes (Well it did until 13-3).
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Jan 27, 2013 04:57
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Francois Kofko posted:Some bosses cast doom on your whole party if you've been fighting for 20 minutes. IIRC it leaves you with like 3 minutes to beat them. Or 20 seconds. One of the two! I forget. 20 minutes? How do you even manage to do those boss fights for that long without keeling over out of boredom? Game's doing you a favor putting you out of your misery.
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Jan 27, 2013 05:24
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It took me half an hour before I beat the final fight of XIII-2, so it's not entirely unprecedented. 
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Jan 27, 2013 05:36
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Final Boss fights, being the last part of the game, are allowed to be a little long, at least in my opinion.
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Jan 27, 2013 05:37
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i was barely chiseling away Orphan's health in the first fight and he kept killing me with the drat status effects + big sword attack. I lasted a long time and did a decent amount of damage but he'd always kill me. I was thoroughly sick of the game by this point though and I just looked up how to beat him. Once I knew to hit him with Poison, the fight was a joke.
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Jan 27, 2013 05:51
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NikkolasKing posted:i was barely chiseling away Orphan's health in the first fight and he kept killing me with the drat status effects + big sword attack. I lasted a long time and did a decent amount of damage but he'd always kill me. So yeah, again, if something is taking too long and killing you, the game is telling you to try something else.
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Jan 27, 2013 06:27
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To be fair, Orphan's first form is a legit rear end in a top hat because of that sword attack and he basically defies the rules of the game just to be an rear end in a top hat, but he's not unmanageable and when you get past the opening attack then there's not much more to him other than him having quite a bit of health.
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Jan 27, 2013 06:53
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Tempo 119 posted:So yeah, again, if something is taking too long and killing you, the game is telling you to try something else. Yeah, it's not as if Final Fantasy as a series has trained people out of using status effects - especially things like Poison - on bosses or anything.
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Jan 27, 2013 07:13
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Kyrosiris posted:Yeah, it's not as if Final Fantasy as a series has trained people out of using status effects - especially things like Poison - on bosses or anything. Pretty much my thinking as well. It never occurred to me I could use a status like Poison on the final boss.
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Jan 27, 2013 07:54
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Single player RPG's, having no multiplayer balance concenrs, will always have deeply broken mechanics, and that's OK. FF13 did a good job of making pretty much every character (except for snow), class, and ability useful in some way, even if it wasn't always optimal. That let players choose how they wanted to approach the battles once the game opened up. While I have not personally done it, there's nothing quite as gamebreaking as there is in FF6 and such. Instead of posting long rants about how people who like FF13 are somehow intellectually inferior for a subjective choice, one can simply say "I did not like the games battle system, and along with the well established narrative issues, made me dislike the game". In the end, how many FF games and encounters revolve around using 1, 2 skills over and over on the same characters? Unless you're doing some crazy, gamebreaking speedrun, pretty much every FF involves just using whatever strongest ability you have at that time and healing when necessary. While they ultimately may not have been total successes, 12 and 13 tried to change things in a series that had very little innovation or change in actual gameplay mechanics from its start in 1990 or whenever it started. Assuming that it will actually happen within a reasonable time period, what do you all even want from an FF15? More random encounters, with your party standing in a line, with a classic ATB system? Some sort of ability to customize jobs and abilities on a group of heroes? Summons in some form? I'm not saying these are bad things, and I enjoy them a lot, but even if FF15 isn't some beautiful HD game with a perfect story (whatever that means) and classic FF mechanics, I'll be ok because there are still plenty of those games to go back to if I want it.
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Jan 27, 2013 08:33
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Kyrosiris posted:Yeah, it's not as if Final Fantasy as a series has trained people out of using status effects - especially things like Poison - on bosses or anything. Usually something silly like poison would be doing negligible amounts of damage to a final boss, if it's not immune anyways. Things like Slow, Blind, and Silence are always better shots.
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Jan 27, 2013 08:35
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Kyrosiris posted:Yeah, it's not as if Final Fantasy as a series has trained people out of using status effects - especially things like Poison - on bosses or anything. Especially since poison had been so utterly useless in past games. I don't ever remember seeing it do noticeable damage in games like FF4 in the rare cases where it'd land. You were better off using Bio or just nuking the poo poo out of whatever you were fighting.
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Jan 27, 2013 08:42
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