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As the originator of this derail, I'd like to say that being a war criminal and being a sociopath can be mutually exclusive. I was curious about the claim of Chris Kyle being a war criminal; I couldn't care less about him being a racist shitbag with questionable human empathy because those are ancillary to actually being a war criminal. So to put an end to the derail: Chris Kyle is not a war criminal; however, he probably was a racist with questionable morals.
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Mar 20, 2013 18:20
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I agree with that. Here's Eric Bolling saying the Iraq War was the smartest thing Bush ever did and "Restored confidence in America". http://mediamatters.org/video/2013/03/19/foxs-bolling-iraq-war-was-the-smartest-thing-ge/193131 Huh, strange. You'd think a guy who did that would be welcome at his own political parties conventions.
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Mar 20, 2013 18:34
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Aside from the "war is hell" quote, none of these are all that bad and sound like a pretty much required mindset to be on an active battlefield. Obviously the circumstances of that battlefield were wrong and the war is unjust and unnecessary, but none of those really scream "OORAH KILLING SAVAGES" more than "I need to kill survive" and him genuinely believing that. Wow, I don't really even know how to respond to this. How can any rational person take those quotes in a positive light? This wasn't some sort of journalistic switcharoo, these were the man's own words. Is a wanton display of overt imperialist/racist aggression really the only thing that would cause you to elicit a, no doubt, meek rebuke of the man? Its not enough to merely read his words and see his remorseless nature and borderline sadism, you want the full monty? Even if he were to have said plainly "gently caress Arabs" I imagine you'd be jumping in here to his defense purely for the sake of doubling down on an argument. quote:Also are you going to provide context to the "war is hell" quote or just sandwich it in between a bunch of quotes about killing enemy soldiers so people think that it's in reference to killing people? (it isn't) That quote alone given the context of his status as the military's highest body count holder is already a damning indictment of his character. Throwing it alongside the other equally reprehensible quotes was just icing on the cake, I admit. Also technically he was never killing soldiers, only 'enemy combatants'. Not that it matters since both are people. quote:I am anti-military to a degree and you are insufferable. First of all, how the gently caress are you anti-military and willing to give this man a pass for his behavior? I'm sorry that you find me insufferable for judging this man by his own loving words but perhaps you should just get over it? This man was anything but a consummate professional. quote:The hero worship over his death is disgusting. The projecting of a bunch of unsupported and disingenuous bullshit onto a dead person is also pretty disgusting. Unsupported except of course by the quotes I provided from his own book. Which you disagree with on the basis of... "he didn't outright say he had an erection when he shot those fleeing insurgents in the back" yes thats a strawman 
Purgey fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 18:38
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Okay, keep pretending that this isn't a common and arguably even necessary mindset to hold to some degree to emotionally function in a warzone. The guy said several times that he couldn't think of the enemies as humans, and that's probably true. Also, he's referring to that same enemy/terrorist whatever as savages in those quotes. He may not give two shits about Iraqis, he may be a racist piece of poo poo, but you're not making any point by noting him saying things like "those savages that torture and decapitate Americans" like he's making some sort of blanket statement about all Iraqis or all Muslims. Yes, he probably holds those beliefs, but that isn't what those quotes are saying and expanding them to suit your narrative of a person you know relatively nothing about is not productive.
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Mar 20, 2013 19:24
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You know, of all the right wing media I listen to, I can't remember the last time I heard any of them mention the stock market, which is about the only segment of the economy really thriving. Oh...
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Mar 20, 2013 19:41
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I just think he was dumb as poo poo for trying to rehab PSTD sufferers through the shooting of guns. This goes to this pervasive meme embedded in right-wing rhetoric that guns are some sort of cure all for everything ailing society. Like they won't stop at saying "guns are important for these specific reasons" and try to make gun ownership a dusk til dawn lifestyle even when it goes against all good reason and sense. I'd argue that that specific "course of treatment" also owes something to machismo bullshit and the "just rub some dirt on it, be a man!" school of mental health. It's like trying to cure a pyrophobe by setting them on fire.
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Mar 20, 2013 19:43
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zoux posted:I just think he was dumb as poo poo for trying to rehab PSTD sufferers through the shooting of guns. I am sure if you could ask Chris Kyle right now he would also admit it was a bad idea.
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Mar 20, 2013 20:45
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zoux posted:I just think he was dumb as poo poo for trying to rehab PSTD sufferers through the shooting of guns. This goes to this pervasive meme embedded in right-wing rhetoric that guns are some sort of cure all for everything ailing society. Like they won't stop at saying "guns are important for these specific reasons" and try to make gun ownership a dusk til dawn lifestyle even when it goes against all good reason and sense. I'd argue that that specific "course of treatment" also owes something to machismo bullshit and the "just rub some dirt on it, be a man!" school of mental health. I got a bill from the E.R. so I shot it.
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Mar 20, 2013 20:46
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Purgey posted:Wow, I don't really even know how to respond to this. How can any rational person take those quotes in a positive light? This wasn't some sort of journalistic switcharoo, these were the man's own words. Is a wanton display of overt imperialist/racist aggression really the only thing that would cause you to elicit a, no doubt, meek rebuke of the man? Its not enough to merely read his words and see his remorseless nature and borderline sadism, you want the full monty? Even if he were to have said plainly "gently caress Arabs" I imagine you'd be jumping in here to his defense purely for the sake of doubling down on an argument. So, this has come up before and it will certainly come up again. Soldiering is not something that is easy or a given, and the number of people willing to accuse and decide from the comfort of whatever half-understood marxist/gently caress-the-man mindset that anyone involved in the killing of other people is either good or bad is disturbing to say the least. War, or any armed conflict is a messy affair as I hope you all know, and while you might be able to look at the entire picture while you aren't directly involved, those on either side who find themselves on the receiving end of any number of horrible options and scenarios are not so lucky. You can accuse soldiers of any number of things, but don't for a second pretend that they would intentionally put themselves in those situations, or that their actions aren't affected by the larger scenario, the same scenario which they are unable to fully comprehend since they are immersed in to up to their eyeballs. War is terrible because it breaks all the rules that we take for granted, that women and children are not going to try to kill us, that the fellow you just met isn't planning how to kill you, and that we can solve our differences through peaceful means. War is terrible, and terrible things happen during war because the ones doing the dying and shooting find themselves outside of society, asked to do the one thing we are most uncomfortable with, and then asked to then think of themselves positively after committing murder. To hold these people to same standards of someone who has a comfortable life full of the usual hum-drum is both naive and damaging, as it allows the blame to fall on the pawns, where the kings and queens are actually at fault, who manage to escape any damage themselves as the expense of the soldier and sailor. War results in atrocities either because someone in power was already broken, or because it took normal people and broke them. So keep you self righteous indignation to yourself; and if you haven't seen just how bazaar and disturbing warfare is, don't casually throw around judgements that fail to even scratch the surface of how ruinous war is to everyone involved.
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Mar 20, 2013 20:48
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Pretty libertarian sounding guy called into Sean Hannity and said that trying to legislate abortion and gay marriage is an overreach of governmental power and restricts liberty and that banning gay marriage is specifically in violation of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. Sean Hannity (not an actual direct quote but real close): "I don't want to argue this. I don't care what people do in privacy, I don't think most Americans do, but why does that mean we should change the traditional definition of marriage? Hillary Clinton was bringing up gay marriage a lot recently because she wants to run for 2016 and it's all just political expediency, not actual caring." They went back and forth with the caller talking about the Constitution and Hannity saying he didn't want to argue and then eventually he dropped the call. The caller did not even tangentially mention Hillary Clinton, Hannity just brought it up because gently caress Hillary Clinton I guess.
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Mar 20, 2013 22:01
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If it's not too much trouble, could we re-rail the thread and get away from rapists and snipers and poo poo, except as it relates to to right wing blowhards commenting on those things, and take those discussions into those specific threads (which I'm certain exist)? I think it's cool to talk about those subjects, but this thread is for right wing spin and deliberate dishonest reporting on their part. We're getting all over the place here and if we can't back on track, I may as well close the thread. I'm sure some right wing idiot/pundit somewhere had something to say about the rape verdict and the sniper soldier. Let's talk about that, OK?
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Mar 20, 2013 22:06
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zoux posted:I just think he was dumb as poo poo for trying to rehab PSTD sufferers through the shooting of guns. This goes to this pervasive meme embedded in right-wing rhetoric that guns are some sort of cure all for everything ailing society. Like they won't stop at saying "guns are important for these specific reasons" and try to make gun ownership a dusk til dawn lifestyle even when it goes against all good reason and sense. I'd argue that that specific "course of treatment" also owes something to machismo bullshit and the "just rub some dirt on it, be a man!" school of mental health. Shooting guns is fun and relaxing, and if someone suffering from PTSD found shooting guns with other ex-military guys fun and relaxing then it's a good way to get them out in the community and continue the healing process. Obviously, something went horribly wrong and it ended in tragedy, but since the trigger and severity of PTSD varies wildly from sufferer to sufferer, going out and shooting guns isn't a bad idea on it's face like you seem to think it is.
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Mar 20, 2013 22:10
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Zeroisanumber posted:Shooting guns is fun and relaxing, and if someone suffering from PTSD found shooting guns with other ex-military guys fun and relaxing then it's a good way to get them out in the community and continue the healing process. Obviously, something went horribly wrong and it ended in tragedy, but since the trigger and severity of PTSD varies wildly from sufferer to sufferer, going out and shooting guns isn't a bad idea on it's face like you seem to think it is. It seems to me that PTSD in soldiers may quite often be related to the memory of shooting guns.
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Mar 20, 2013 23:09
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BAWRLIN posted:The offensive and stupid part I am talking about is offering his military record as the only necessary proof of his supposed racist bloodlust. That, by extension, claims that anyone doing the same job is also a racist monster. This is the problem, you're arguing against a claim no one made. People are judging Kyle based on his words and actions. Nyyen posted:So, this has come up before and it will certainly come up again. Soldiering is not something that is easy or a given, and the number of people willing to accuse and decide from the comfort of whatever half-understood marxist/gently caress-the-man mindset that anyone involved in the killing of other people is either good or bad is disturbing to say the least. You missed the part where it takes bigoted pieces of poo poo who enjoy killing and gives them the opportunity to do so without consequence. Btw, despite what you might have learned from this thread, using "Marxist" as a catch all insult for anything you regard as too left wing doesn't actually make you look smart or add anything to the point you're trying to make, you bourgeois crypto-fascist. Strawman fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 23:26
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Pretty libertarian sounding guy called into Sean Hannity and said that trying to legislate abortion and gay marriage is an overreach of governmental power and restricts liberty and that banning gay marriage is specifically in violation of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. "Hillary is only supporting gay marriage out of political opportunism for 2016" was on yesterday's list of Republican talking points. God drat it, if the Democrats had their level of media control and unified messaging... America would be a Corporatocracy with slightly more liberal social policies 
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Mar 20, 2013 23:28
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Strawman posted:"Hillary is only supporting gay marriage out of political opportunism for 2016" was on yesterday's list of Republican talking points. God drat it, if the Democrats had their level of media control and unified messaging... America would be a Corporatocracy with slightly more liberal social policies In this very forum we were all snickering the day of about how her announcement was a prerequisite for a potential 2016 run. It's not a controversial statement.
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Mar 20, 2013 23:36
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watt par posted:In this very forum we were all snickering the day of about how her announcement was a prerequisite for a potential 2016 run. It's not a controversial statement. It's also a distinction without a difference if you ask me. If a person says they support a particular position and they behave in a manner consistent with support for it, then their actual personal feelings on the issue, even if they're in opposition to it, don't really mean much.
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Mar 20, 2013 23:44
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I don't doubt she's sincere, she did one of those it gets better vids a couple years ago when that was all the rage. But it's also fair to point out, as was done here, that she has to publicly affirm she's for gay marriage if she's gonna run, as will any future democratic candidate.
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Mar 21, 2013 00:25
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Strawman posted:This is the problem, you're arguing against a claim no one made. People are judging Kyle based on his words and actions. Purgey posted:Anyone who desires to be a 'sniper' in this modern era isn't so much a war criminal as a psychopath. Indeed.
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Mar 21, 2013 01:37
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BiggerBoat posted:You know, of all the right wing media I listen to, I can't remember the last time I heard any of them mention the stock market, which is about the only segment of the economy really thriving. The stock market only matters when it's doing badly because it's all Obama's fault. When it's doing well and nothing horrible is happen well then obviously that's all thanks to the free market righting itself and has nothing to do with Obama so let's just ignore it in case somebody starts raising questions about exactly how the market got back on stable ground.
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Mar 21, 2013 01:44
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zoux posted:I just think he was dumb as poo poo for trying to rehab PSTD sufferers through the shooting of guns. Has anyone dissing this guy for treating PSTD by shooting actually looked at studies on the topic? Some soldiers who suffer from PTSD find playing a violent shooting game like CoD to be a cathartic experience. It helps them dissociate sounds similar to gunfire and explosions (loud bangs) from the immediate reflexive terror of being threatened with actual violence. The experience of killing and being killed without horrible real-world consequences is relaxing. Attempting the same type of treatment with real guns is clearly not worth the risk, but it isn't without merit. Typical Pubbie fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Mar 21, 2013 |
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Mar 21, 2013 03:27
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BAWRLIN posted:Indeed. Nothing in that post suggests that everyone in the army joined because they enjoy killing as much as Chris Kyle.
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Mar 21, 2013 10:51
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Typical Pubbie posted:Has anyone dissing this guy for treating PSTD by shooting actually looked at studies on the topic? Some soldiers who suffer from PTSD find playing a violent shooting game like CoD to be a cathartic experience. It helps them dissociate sounds similar to gunfire and explosions (loud bangs) from the immediate reflexive terror of being threatened with actual violence. The experience of killing and being killed without horrible real-world consequences is relaxing. Attempting the same type of treatment with real guns is clearly not worth the risk, but it isn't without merit. @maiasz wrote an interesting article on it a while ago.
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Mar 21, 2013 12:41
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ufarn posted:Going back to war can actually also mitigate PTSD. Seriously? That sounds like the way drinking can help with hangovers. Does the PTSD come back when you leave war again?
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Mar 21, 2013 12:45
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Crasscrab posted:The stock market only matters when it's doing badly because it's all Obama's fault. When it's doing well and nothing horrible is happen well then obviously that's all thanks to the free market righting itself and has nothing to do with Obama so let's just ignore it in case somebody starts raising questions about exactly how the market got back on stable ground. It was a common conservative talking point before the election that the stock market was doing well only because businesses were betting the Republicans would win the Senate and White House. Watch for more of the same next year.
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Mar 21, 2013 17:27
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Typical Pubbie posted:Has anyone dissing this guy for treating PSTD by shooting actually looked at studies on the topic? Some soldiers who suffer from PTSD find playing a violent shooting game like CoD to be a cathartic experience. It helps them dissociate sounds similar to gunfire and explosions (loud bangs) from the immediate reflexive terror of being threatened with actual violence. The experience of killing and being killed without horrible real-world consequences is relaxing. Attempting the same type of treatment with real guns is clearly not worth the risk, but it isn't without merit. Well in this case it obviously was a stupid idea. People should seek treatment from qualified therapists with experience and combine pharmaceutical and clinical therapy. They should not seek treatment from jingoistic turds who think you can oo-rah your way through shellshock.
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Mar 21, 2013 17:44
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I loving love America and how I don't need to give a poo poo about the contorted reasonings some ex - soldier dreamed up to justify his sociopathy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 21, 2013 17:47
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BiggerBoat posted:You know, of all the right wing media I listen to, I can't remember the last time I heard any of them mention the stock market, which is about the only segment of the economy really thriving. Pay no attention to the major market indexes behind the curtain!
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Mar 21, 2013 17:49
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Radbot posted:I loving love America and how I don't need to give a poo poo about the contorted reasonings some ex - soldier dreamed up to justify his sociopathy. What is it with this thread that every angry, wannabe black-flagger pops in to tell us how black and white their world view is and how much a true believer they are in any number of emotional and shallow ideas about political and global issues? Are you jealous of the rights monopoly on unthinking zealotry? Are you worried the left might try to understand the complicated nature of issues and actually try to deal with their social and cultural causes? Is trying to see why once innocent and good people can be driven to do bad things by forces outside of themselves too threatening to your idea that you are one of the few "who gets it", or maybe its just too hard to imagine a world where the badguys didn't set out to be badguys, but could have instead just been trying to escape whatever blue-collar shithole they were born into, and found themselves mailed off to a country that wasn't even at war with us when they signed away 8 years of their life?
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Mar 21, 2013 18:43
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I'm pretty sure that there haven't been 8 years of peace in decades. Anyone who signed up did so with the explicit knowledge that they could be deployed and die. It sucks that we lack other vehicles for social mobility but conservatives are theoretically not interested in government handouts anyway.
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Mar 21, 2013 18:49
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Paul MaudDib posted:It sucks that we lack other vehicles for social mobility but conservatives are theoretically not interested in government handouts anyway. Because all soldiers are conservatives...
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Mar 21, 2013 18:53
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prefect posted:Seriously? That sounds like the way drinking can help with hangovers. Does the PTSD come back when you leave war again? When you're back at war, it's not Post anymore, it's active. I'd imagine it would come back once they left the battlefield, but everyone's different.
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Mar 21, 2013 19:44
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So Rush "highlighted government absurdity" by making a hypothetical situation about Netflix raising its prices so that people who can't afford it can use the service and how that would make people angry but they don't care when the government does it. I've been listening for about 15 minutes and so far he's said "once again, Netflix is not actually raising their prices, I was just trying to make a point" about six times. The intelligence of conservative radio listeners. I can't imagine how many outraged e-mails/calls they're getting.
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Mar 21, 2013 19:57
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I apologize for being an angry internet nerd, but I really want to agree with everyone on the left, but its drat hard when people who I would otherwise agree with make a point of making me the villain, especially when I and others like me have to deal with the horrors of warfare while at the same time being demonized by the very people who were smart or lucky enough to avoid that pain and horror, but who also are uninterested in trying to understand why we didn't intend to be evil, and that we are trying to change ourselves and the system so that others don't have to find themselves in a similar situation. On a less derailly note, I have been listening Rush the last few days and he has been banging on about how the new rules about helmet contact in the NFL are ruining the sport and sissifying our manly American culture. Is there any more to this issue other than the usual reactionary clap-trap of political correctness gone wild, or is there some deeper message? It seems like such an apolitical issue for him to focus on. Nyyen fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Mar 21, 2013 |
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Mar 21, 2013 19:57
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Nyyen posted:On a less derailly note, I have been listening Rush the last few days and he has been banging on about how the new rules about helmet contact in the NFL are ruining the sport and sissifying our manly American culture. Is there any more too this issue than the usual reactionary clap-trap of political correctness gone wild, or is there some deeper message? It seems like such an apolitical issue for him to focus on. Conservative men, especially those with power, consider themselves to be a peak form of masculinity. He has to call it sissy because not doing so compromises that belief. Have you ever seen a group of these insecure traditionalist guys trying to one up and out alpha male each other? It's hilarious.
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Mar 21, 2013 20:00
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He used to be an NFL commentator until he got the boot for saying racist poo poo.
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Mar 21, 2013 20:00
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Scorched Spitz posted:He used to be an NFL commentator until he got the boot for saying racist poo poo. And then he tried to be an NFL owner until black players refused to play for him
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Mar 21, 2013 20:02
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Nyyen posted:On a less derailly note, I have been listening Rush the last few days and he has been banging on about how the new rules about helmet contact in the NFL are ruining the sport and sissifying our manly American culture. Is there any more to this issue other than the usual reactionary clap-trap of political correctness gone wild, or is there some deeper message? It seems like such an apolitical issue for him to focus on. Isn't it pretty obvious why Rush Limbaugh of all people would favor a mostly black group of people causing one another permanent brain damage and early death?
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Mar 21, 2013 20:12
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Nyyen posted:On a less derailly note, I have been listening Rush the last few days and he has been banging on about how the new rules about helmet contact in the NFL are ruining the sport and sissifying our manly American culture. Is there any more to this issue other than the usual reactionary clap-trap of political correctness gone wild, or is there some deeper message? It seems like such an apolitical issue for him to focus on. Typically he uses the football head injury issue as an example of how liberals want to make good things not good anymore and then uses it as a jumping off point to explain how liberals make things bad and their motivations for doing so. The following discussion is well reasoned and factually based of course. So basically only liberals care about brain damage and that's bad because...FOOTBALL...and we ain't no pussies!
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Mar 21, 2013 20:25
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I'd like to see Rush take a tackle from someone's helmet or tackle a football player while wearing a helmet. He should put his money where his mouth is and do it.
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Mar 21, 2013 20:36
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