Clockwork Empires 1.0 - Having A Roanoke Time!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Clockwork Empires 1.0 - Having A Roanoke Time!

Hagop: May 14, 2012; First one out of the Ranger gets a prize!

nvining posted:

Bit of a late blog post today, but hey! It's about pipes.

http://www.gaslampgames.com/2013/03/13/a-little-something-for-the-pipe-fanciers-out-there/

Welp, I am not going to lie. What you just talked about getting rid of is exactly what I hoped the cog and pipe system would end up being. It sounds like you had good reason for it, but none the less I am disappointed that you managed to come up with exactly what I hoped the system would be, and then threw it away.

I am now very interested in seeing new system in the same level of detail that you should showed us the old system. So that I can properly insult it for not being as good.

# ? Mar 14, 2013 14:22

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 28, 2024 02:52

Triskelli: Sep 27, 2011; I AM A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS

Hagop posted:

I am now very interested in seeing new system in the same level of detail that you should showed us the old system. So that I can properly insult it for not being as good.

It's called Clockwork Empires, not Logistic Pipes: The Videogame. Having this interwoven infrastructure is important, but not the main focus. Yes, it's fun trying to build the densest knots of pipe possible in Buildcraft, but there you don't have to deal with fixed cameras and visibility(though I think I could have handled it)

# ? Mar 14, 2013 15:26

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Good game design must marry together clear, obvious visual cues with the choices the player makes and can make. This is because it is a moving system, with rules, that has to be intuitive. Otherwise people won�t play it.

So while �pipes and gears everywhere going everywhich way� is a great idea for painting a steampunk scene, because it serves as a visual metaphor for man�s project to control the environment, it is not a good idea for a system that has to be interacted with. This doesn�t mean that a steampunk-set city builder is a bad idea, but if it looked like this theoretical painting then it would be a really bad game.

You may as well just play Dwarf Fortress if that is the sort of thing you wanted.

# ? Mar 14, 2013 15:44

Iunnrais: Jul 25, 2007; It's gaelic.

Why not have the pipes and gears everywhere, but with the option to easily hide them? Or hide just types of them, or hide everything except the connections between two or more specific buildings?

# ? Mar 14, 2013 16:09

Wolfgang Pauli: Mar 26, 2008; One Three Seven

I agree with everything said in the blog, but I also don't know what else can really be done about it. As far as complexity goes, there's no real reason that it would have to be anything more than the player dragging lines and scrolling the mouse wheel to change elevation. Visual clutter, though, is a real problem and I have no idea. I don't think there's a solution that doesn't suck in some way.

Iunnrais posted:

Why not have the pipes and gears everywhere, but with the option to easily hide them? Or hide just types of them, or hide everything except the connections between two or more specific buildings?

Then it becomes Simcity 4's underground mode. It's not a gameplay element at that point, it's just a chore.

# ? Mar 14, 2013 16:33

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Somebody will mod it in later anyways.

# ? Mar 14, 2013 16:42

Hagop: May 14, 2012; First one out of the Ranger gets a prize!

rudatron posted:

Good game design must marry together clear, obvious visual cues with the choices the player makes and can make. This is because it is a moving system, with rules, that has to be intuitive. Otherwise people won�t play it.

So while �pipes and gears everywhere going everywhich way� is a great idea for painting a steampunk scene, because it serves as a visual metaphor for man�s project to control the environment, it is not a good idea for a system that has to be interacted with. This doesn�t mean that a steampunk-set city builder is a bad idea, but if it looked like this theoretical painting then it would be a really bad game.

You may as well just play Dwarf Fortress if that is the sort of thing you wanted.

All the confusion and lack of readability in the old system (that we have been shown) seems to be cause by building placement. The old system looks nice and functional, pipes are color coded, gears a large so you visually can tell were the power is being transferred, buildings have very clear attachment points for pipes and gears. All the confusion in the blog post seems to caused by buildings being placed in such away that force confusing pipe laid out.

# ? Mar 14, 2013 17:36

nvining: May 30, 2011; tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Hagop posted:

Welp, I am not going to lie. What you just talked about getting rid of is exactly what I hoped the cog and pipe system would end up being. It sounds like you had good reason for it, but none the less I am disappointed that you managed to come up with exactly what I hoped the system would be, and then threw it away.

Yeah, I know. The long and the short of it is that I was a big fan of the old cog-and-pipe system as well, and I'm sad that it got streamlined; at the same time, there are enough problems working with the new system that it was basically for the best.

A lot of these problems actually have to do with making a game in 3D and not 2D. In Dwarf Fortress, it's easier to see things from a top-down view.

Comparisons to Simcity 4's underground mode are very apt. One of the better things that the new Simcity does is gets rid of all of that, because nobody actually liked it, even the people who said they liked it. But I'm, uh, not supposed to talk about the new Simcity.

# ? Mar 14, 2013 19:18

dbaumgart: May 31, 2011

Regarding the controversy about "simplifying pipes": You'll note that I didn't actually explain anything at all about how anything was simplified. Really, I just kinda trailed off from the subject and talked about how Sean's life is Pain, so I'm not sure what people are assuming about what our current working assumption is. The worst, I suppose?

For example, one aspect of the simplification: We standardized how dynamics lines connect to machines so that there is a single consistent system which doesn't require endless model variations. This makes life easier for the artists making the assets and the programmers who have to make them work together and doesn't mean very much to players except that the visuals will be a bit more elegant and we'll have more time to make Cool Stuff in the game in other places. Apart from that, there are some simple rules about what is allowed to go over top of what and some rules about spacing and letting pipes run through buildings so you don't end up with a city made of tiny alleyways clogged with pipes. (Which, yes, would be a cool aesthetic in a FPS, but it would be incomprehensible in an isometric strategy game. Plus, forcing players to make meaningful choices about how to use the space they are given is part of good gameplay design, in my opinion.)

In short, there's no need to worry about things we didn't even say we weren't doing. Or something like that.

# ? Mar 14, 2013 19:24

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

So how will the people of the colony kick back and relax to avoid going crazy?

# ? Mar 14, 2013 19:27

nvining: May 30, 2011; tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

SeanBeansShako posted:

So how will the people of the colony kick back and relax to avoid going crazy?

Laudanum.

# ? Mar 14, 2013 19:31

Wolfgang Pauli: Mar 26, 2008; One Three Seven

nvining posted:

Comparisons to Simcity 4's underground mode are very apt. One of the better things that the new Simcity does is gets rid of all of that, because nobody actually liked it, even the people who said they liked it. But I'm, uh, not supposed to talk about the new Simcity.

You can talk about Tropico instead. In Modern Times you can plop down metro stations and agents will just warp between them, no underground mode bs required.

On an unrelated note, have you guys read the Siege of Krishnapur? It's probably the canonical example of poo poo Goes Wrong in the Colonies, including two doctors who are so wrapped up in arguing over the best cure for cholera that they never do anything about it.

# ? Mar 14, 2013 20:08

nvining: May 30, 2011; tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Today's largely technical post is about our experiences with three different pieces of profiling software:

http://www.gaslampgames.com/2013/03/20/cpu-and-gpu-run-time-profiling-in-simulation-land/

It does include some unrelated concept art of machines, though.

# ? Mar 20, 2013 19:06

President Ark: May 16, 2010

nvining posted:

The camera rotates freely - but only to one of the four preset angles. Basically, this is because we use a true isometric projection for everything, and isometric projections don't look... right? ... if you don't have the Y axis at 45 degrees to the rest of the world. If you do a perspective projection, or you start free-rotating the camera, a lot of the building stuff becomes a nightmare. You can't judge the relative size of buildings, etc.

You can also zoom in and out, of course. Trust me, it's all fine in action.

Make the things looking wrong bit a feature. As more people in your colony fall to worship of Things From Beyond the Veil of Reality, have the camera start automatically tilting a couple degrees off that perfect 45-degree angle - not a lot, but juuust enough that it nags at the back of the player's mind when they look at their town square and suddenly go WHAT THE gently caress THIS LOOKS HORRIFYINGLY WRONG BUT I CAN'T TELL WHY

# ? Mar 20, 2013 20:01

Deadmeat5150: Nov 21, 2005; OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN

I really love the picture posted in today's update. Any chance of getting more like that? Just as a Teaser?

President Ark posted:

Make the things looking wrong bit a feature. As more people in your colony fall to worship of Things From Beyond the Veil of Reality, have the camera start automatically tilting a couple degrees off that perfect 45-degree angle - not a lot, but juuust enough that it nags at the back of the player's mind when they look at their town square and suddenly go WHAT THE gently caress THIS LOOKS HORRIFYINGLY WRONG BUT I CAN'T TELL WHY

This is a brilliant idea.

# ? Mar 20, 2013 21:00

Volmarias: Dec 31, 2002; EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

President Ark posted:

Make the things looking wrong bit a feature. As more people in your colony fall to worship of Things From Beyond the Veil of Reality, have the camera start automatically tilting a couple degrees off that perfect 45-degree angle - not a lot, but juuust enough that it nags at the back of the player's mind when they look at their town square and suddenly go WHAT THE gently caress THIS LOOKS HORRIFYINGLY WRONG BUT I CAN'T TELL WHY

That generally gets filed under the "these guys suck at graphics" part of your brain rather than the "non-euclidian geometry" part.

# ? Mar 20, 2013 21:44

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Volmarias posted:

That generally gets filed under the "these guys suck at graphics" part of your brain rather than the "non-euclidian geometry" part.

They could add a subtle but ominous bass line when it happens.

edit: or even better, put in some chords taken from Balinese Gamelan

Gamelan usually sounds very discordant and disturbing to people used to Western music. See Secret of Mana: Ceremony

Cicero fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Mar 20, 2013

# ? Mar 20, 2013 21:53

Lprsti99: Apr 7, 2011; Everything's coming up explodey!; Pillbug

Cicero posted:

They could add a subtle but ominous bass line when it happens.

edit: or even better, put in some chords taken from Balinese Gamelan

Gamelan usually sounds very discordant and disturbing to people used to Western music. See Secret of Mana: Ceremony

Wait, you mean somewhere, that isn't considered creepy? :gonk:

# ? Mar 21, 2013 01:54

Wolfgang Pauli: Mar 26, 2008; One Three Seven

Volmarias posted:

That generally gets filed under the "these guys suck at graphics" part of your brain rather than the "non-euclidian geometry" part.

I don't know, it worked really well in Hotline Miami because it responded to your camera movements. If the camera angle starts to drift from its angle in response to the player moving it, I think that would be communicated perfectly. That makes a *ton* of work for the graphics team, though.

# ? Mar 21, 2013 03:46

nvining: May 30, 2011; tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

The musical soundtrack already contains Gamelan. And, uh, a bunch of synths mainly used by Trent Reznor.

# ? Mar 21, 2013 05:33

Wolfgang Pauli: Mar 26, 2008; One Three Seven

quote:

I'm cancelling any and all engagements requiring me to leave my house before July.

quote:

This night of pro coding and amateur whiskey drinking is on its way to pro whiskey drinking and amateur coding.

quote:

vertices = new GLfloat[ ... Wait, am I dead? Is this hell?

quote:

vertices = new GLfloat is going to be the title of my memoirs, and they're going to carve it onto my tombstone.

I see you guys are using Chris Whitman to better observe a worker's descent into madness. I trust you're piping hot and cold running laudanum into his house.

# ? Mar 21, 2013 08:17

Smart Car: Mar 31, 2011

nvining posted:

The musical soundtrack already contains Gamelan.

That makes me happy after listening to that link above, I love that sound.

# ? Mar 21, 2013 12:14

Dr. Arbitrary: Mar 15, 2006; Bleak Gremlin

I will be really impressed if there's a Kecak inspired song.

# ? Mar 22, 2013 01:34

Daynab: Aug 5, 2008

No real blogpost this week because they're at GDC, have a filler one instead.
http://www.gaslampgames.com/2013/03/27/guide-to-aristocratic-tableswares-etiquette/

# ? Mar 27, 2013 21:54

ScottyBomb: Oct 24, 2005; Cthulhu loves me, this I know, for ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!!

Wait... why does crimble need tongs? Isn't it a kind of pie or something? Oh dear...

Also, the second chart is pure, comedic genius. Please tell me that Stiff Upper Lip is actually a trait in the game.

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:57

Deadmeat5150: Nov 21, 2005; OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN

I actually laughed and snorted at seeing the desert mallet. Mmmmmmmmm tasty.

# ? Mar 28, 2013 04:39

nvining: May 30, 2011; tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Yes, "Stiff Upper Lip" is a real trait.

I am back from GDC. In lieu of any real information, I will note that showing our new PR person the game for the first time produced "That was really cu--OH MY GOD WHAT IS THAT THING IT IS THE STUFF OF MY NIGHTMARES."

# ? Mar 31, 2013 06:32

a nest of hornets: Nov 17, 2012; by Ralp

Why haven't I heard of this until now?! This looks amazing! (Hi I am a refuge from the SimCity thread please don't hurt me)

What are grape scissors for?

# ? Mar 31, 2013 06:46

Triskelli: Sep 27, 2011; I AM A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS

FOLLOW ME BRUH posted:

What are grape scissors for?

Making a small incision to peel the grape of course. It takes a steady and delicate hand.

# ? Mar 31, 2013 06:58

nvining: May 30, 2011; tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

FOLLOW ME BRUH posted:

Why haven't I heard of this until now?! This looks amazing! (Hi I am a refuge from the SimCity thread please don't hurt me)

What are grape scissors for?

If you're a refuge from the Simcity thread, go spread the gospel. If you'll excuse me, I have to go add a FakeUrchinCount() function now.

Grape Scissors are used for cutting grapes, of course! They're a real thing. All of the art in that post was actually remixed from an ancient book we have on Victorian Silverware and Household Goods.

# ? Mar 31, 2013 07:02

Hello Sailor: May 3, 2006; we're all mad here

nvining posted:

Grape Scissors are used for cutting grapes, of course! They're a real thing. All of the art in that post was actually remixed from an ancient book we have on Victorian Silverware and Household Goods.

I thought maybe the mustand snoot was the other correctly-named one. Salad fork was obvious.

# ? Mar 31, 2013 08:18

Zoe: Jan 19, 2007; Hair Elf

It must have sucked eating grapes back in the day when they had seeds in them.

...now explain the purpose of a mustard snoot.

# ? Mar 31, 2013 14:46

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Doesn't surprise me the Clockwork Upperclass would bring their entire dining room with to the Colonies. There is a famous satircal picture from the twenties of some well off British couple having a dinner party in the middle of some African jungle all dressed up to the nines with all the needed wine glasses, forks and tables being served by well dressed valets.

Keep up the good work guys, seriously looking forward to this like I've mentioned before.

# ? Mar 31, 2013 14:48

Triskelli: Sep 27, 2011; I AM A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS

Zoe posted:

It must have sucked eating grapes back in the day when they had seeds in them.

...now explain the purpose of a mustard snoot.

A small shovel for sprinkling the powdered mustard. This is all elementary table etiquette!

# ? Mar 31, 2013 15:13

Zoe: Jan 19, 2007; Hair Elf

Triskelli posted:

A small shovel for sprinkling the powdered mustard. This is all elementary table etiquette!

Of course! How foolish of me! But I'm glad I asked, I rather embarrassed myself at my first fancy dinner party by mistaking it for a mustard snort and taking my mustard powder like cocaine.

SeanBeansShako posted:

Doesn't surprise me the Clockwork Upperclass would bring their entire dining room with to the Colonies.

Didn't the original Jamestown settlers take a perfumer along? 'Cause you know, carving out a niche for yourself in a harsh unforgiving wilderness where most of you will starve...gotta have that perfume! Who needs another farmer? Maybe CE should include some kind of useless profession just to troll the player, kind of like a DF soap maker or fish dissector without the easy solution of sticking them in a squad or reassigning them to another job.

Zoe fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Mar 31, 2013

# ? Mar 31, 2013 16:19

Demiurge4: Aug 10, 2011

I want this game to be open to random poo poo like in Space Station 13, that game is so incredibly brilliant.

# ? Mar 31, 2013 16:31

Sumac: Sep 5, 2006; It doesn't matter now, come on get happy

Zoe posted:

It must have sucked eating grapes back in the day when they had seeds in them.

...now explain the purpose of a mustard snoot.

Nothing beats a good seeded muscadine and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. :colbert:

# ? Mar 31, 2013 19:11

Wolfgang Pauli: Mar 26, 2008; One Three Seven

Zoe posted:

Didn't the original Jamestown settlers take a perfumer along? 'Cause you know, carving out a niche for yourself in a harsh unforgiving wilderness where most of you will starve...gotta have that perfume! Who needs another farmer? Maybe CE should include some kind of useless profession just to troll the player, kind of like a DF soap maker or fish dissector without the easy solution of sticking them in a squad or reassigning them to another job.

Jamestown found the easy solution of telling the nobles to go gently caress themselves and the soldiers took over. Actually that's not a bad description of DF.

MacGyvers_Mullet posted:

Nothing beats a good seeded muscadine and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

To the Pit!

_{Get it? Pit?}

# ? Mar 31, 2013 21:15

nvining: May 30, 2011; tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Zoe posted:

Didn't the original Jamestown settlers take a perfumer along? 'Cause you know, carving out a niche for yourself in a harsh unforgiving wilderness where most of you will starve...gotta have that perfume! Who needs another farmer? Maybe CE should include some kind of useless profession just to troll the player, kind of like a DF soap maker or fish dissector without the easy solution of sticking them in a squad or reassigning them to another job.

... Not saying more, but yes.