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I'm going to preface this with the fact that I love pitbulls as much as your average other big dopey dog, but: My dog (and I!) was bit by pit/lab(?) mix at the dog park 10 days ago. I keep telling everyone it was "some yellow mutt" because I hate the pit stereotype. But after several checkups for the bitten ear (we're up to our 4th vet visit as of today and had to schedule a 5th for next week), my vet asked me if I knew if it was a pitbull who bit my dog. I kind of played dumb and asked why, and he told me there's some research out there that pitbull bites tend to be worse than other breed bites because there's something either about their saliva or the bacteria in their mouths specifically that make wounds have a tough time healing. My little anecdote makes me want to say "Well that explains it!" but my Googling isn't turning up anything except people allergic to pitbull spit only. Not that peer-reviewed stuff is particularly easy to find in Google, but... Has anyone heard of this? For anyone following my thread, Roger's ear is slowly getting better but the vet took another microscope slide and noted that there's still a bit of white blood cells surrounding some bacteria (or something like that). He's getting another round of pain/anti-inflamatory meds and a new antibotic to take until his next checkup in 10 days. Still has to wear the cone, and hates it. 
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Apr 10, 2013 21:13
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drat Bananas posted:Has anyone heard of this? It's a Pit Bull, not a Komodo Dragon. I think it's bunk.
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Apr 10, 2013 21:18
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^^^That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard and I would love to see the "research" he's referencing because lol.
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Apr 10, 2013 21:18
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Thanks... if it was a guy on the street I'd say the same as yall but I'm inclined to trust that an actual doctor with 30+ years experience isn't just making things up. It's possible it's research that has been debunked since he read it, I was just curious about the idea.
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Apr 10, 2013 21:22
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Sounds like one of a dime a dozen "studies" that didn't make it through any sort of peer review.
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Apr 10, 2013 21:27
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Three incredulous replies but still no serious discussion of why it is a "stupid" idea. Maybe I'm taking it too personally but I came to the tried-and-true animal questions thread instead of random nonsense thread because I was hoping I wouldn't get that kind of response. I've found one article that talks about how saliva varies in pH and mineral content across breeds - though it's all about dental disease and not, like, wound interaction or whatever I'm looking for. Is it unreasonable to think that something in one or more breeds' cocktails could aggravate tissue growth or harbor a specific type or higher concentration of bacteria?
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Apr 10, 2013 21:51
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drat Bananas posted:Three incredulous replies but still no serious discussion of why it is a "stupid" idea. Maybe I'm taking it too personally but I came to the tried-and-true animal questions thread instead of random nonsense thread because I was hoping I wouldn't get that kind of response. I've found one article that talks about how saliva varies in pH and mineral content across breeds - though it's all about dental disease and not, like, wound interaction or whatever I'm looking for. Is it unreasonable to think that something in one or more breeds' cocktails could aggravate tissue growth or harbor a specific type or higher concentration of bacteria? My basic stab at it comes down to that bacteria present in any living creature is more a result of its environment/diet than genetics (within a population of a like species). Its possible that this specific pit had a nasty mouth, or its possible that more dirt/grime/crap than normal got in the wound and made the infection worse. I think the main reason you are getting incredulous replies is that this is a line of reasoning that is so far out there from a critical scientific viewpoint that, well, its hard to respond to politely. Now this gets distorted when you involve other animals, such as cats, who are known to have more/different bacteria, but a cat is a vastly different host than a dog.
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Apr 10, 2013 22:08
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Siochain posted:My basic stab at it comes down to that bacteria present in any living creature is more a result of its environment/diet than genetics (within a population of a like species). Its possible that this specific pit had a nasty mouth, or its possible that more dirt/grime/crap than normal got in the wound and made the infection worse. I think the main reason you are getting incredulous replies is that this is a line of reasoning that is so far out there from a critical scientific viewpoint that, well, its hard to respond to politely. Thank you for at least entertaining my question. But I guess I don't see it as an "out there" line of reasoning if it happens to be true for cats... Even if my reasoning is too basic or downright wrong (yet prompted by a medical professional!) I think there absolutely is a way to politely reply. My degree deals with rocks, but if someone without a background in it asks something I consider obvious based on my schooling I can certainly answer politely. Either way, nevermind, I will try to remember to ask my vet for specifics next Saturday.
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Apr 10, 2013 22:25
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I did a few searches for "pitbull saliva" and "wound healing" on Google Scholar and PubMed and haven't found anything. I have never heard anything about pit bulls having bad saliva at our teaching hospital or in our lectures. I want to say this as respectfully as possible, but... I think you should get a second opinion. I've been following your dog bite story and I've noticed a number of things that are inconsistent with what I've been taught in vet school on proper wound management (e.g. stitching a bite wound closed when we've been taught not to do that because it closes up the infection, using Baytril first line for a wound when it leads to antimicrobial resistance). Obviously I'm only a student and I haven't seen your dog, and I don't know what your vet has said to you, but from reading your story, I don't think it would be wrong in this case to maybe seek a second opinion on managing his wound.
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Apr 10, 2013 22:50
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drat Bananas posted:Three incredulous replies but still no serious discussion of why it is a "stupid" idea. Maybe I'm taking it too personally but I came to the tried-and-true animal questions thread instead of random nonsense thread because I was hoping I wouldn't get that kind of response. I've found one article that talks about how saliva varies in pH and mineral content across breeds - though it's all about dental disease and not, like, wound interaction or whatever I'm looking for. Is it unreasonable to think that something in one or more breeds' cocktails could aggravate tissue growth or harbor a specific type or higher concentration of bacteria? Its is a scientifically stupid and implausible idea, and this is coming from a scientist. Dog mouths may be dirty and gross and have bacteria that will cause infections. Unless somehow pitbulls have evolved super dirty and gross mouths compared to other types of dogs and then a species or strain of bacteria that has negative health effects for bitten dogs evolved to live specifically in pitbull mouths, then this is unlikely. pH is probgably going to be more of an issue during and right after a bite. As long as the other dog's mouth wasn't like pH 2 (very acidic) or pH 13 (very basic) the worst you'd get is mild irritation that would go away eventually. Cat mouths are a different issue all together and given that they are so very different from dogs its difficult to make a comparison. I think your vet was just trying to get a straight answer from you and was inclined to scare it out.
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Apr 10, 2013 22:52
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 I don't think anyone meant for you to take it personally, no one is attacking your reasoning for asking a question.
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Apr 10, 2013 23:08
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Superconsndar posted:
I think most of the stuff is more meant to be directed at your vet.
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Apr 10, 2013 23:12
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drat Bananas posted:Thank you for at least entertaining my question. But I guess I don't see it as an "out there" line of reasoning if it happens to be true for cats... Even if my reasoning is too basic or downright wrong (yet prompted by a medical professional!) I think there absolutely is a way to politely reply. My degree deals with rocks, but if someone without a background in it asks something I consider obvious based on my schooling I can certainly answer politely. Its been said elsewhere, but cats and dogs are totally different beasts - I've got a minor in Geology, so I'll take a stab at an analogy: its akin to saying all sedimentary rocks are identical whether they are lacustrine, fluvial, oceanic etc. Totally different beasts. Bacterial content of different species is vastly different, but within a species, any variations are going to be geographically/environmentally determinant. So all dogs in your area may have dirtier mouths, but no breed of dog (given that a breed is the same species, with very little genetic deviation) is going to have a statistically significant higher/different amount/variety of bacteria in their mouths. Shoot me a PM if you want me to try and get a bit better of an explanation in (I'm currently working and getting distracted by phone calls, but I think I can explain this better.)
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Apr 10, 2013 23:13
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Braki posted:I did a few searches for "pitbull saliva" and "wound healing" on Google Scholar and PubMed and haven't found anything. I have never heard anything about pit bulls having bad saliva at our teaching hospital or in our lectures. Firstly, I've gotten the opposite flack from a (human) med student for my ER doctor not stitching my own wound - the med student says they always stitch dog bites but do not stitch human bites. My doc said he doesn't stitch the dog bites so it allows them to drain. I think it probably comes down to both methods having pros and cons depending on the situation. Roger has big flappy ears that he likes to shake around, and since it was a jagged through-and-through, they didn't want his constant flapping to tear it open further. Or heck, maybe get a toenail stuck in the ear piercing and tear it all the way to the edge. That's just my guess, though. Secondly, Baytril was the second antibiotic, not the first, given by the emergency vet (not pitbull research vet) as treatment for the 104.5 fever he developed 24+ hours after the bite (and Clindomycin prescription apparently not being strong enough). Now that the infection is getting better, regular-vet is switching Roger to a week on Simplicef after the other two have now finished running their courses. However, if he does not show improvement by the time he's due for his (hopefully last) checkup in 10 days, then I will look into other vet options for second opinions. Siochain posted:I've got a minor in Geology, so I'll take a stab at an analogy: its akin to saying all sedimentary rocks are identical whether they are lacustrine, fluvial, oceanic etc. Totally different beasts.   . NEXT! ...I wouldn't have batted an eye.Anyway... someone ask another question or something because I think this conversation has run its course.
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Apr 10, 2013 23:29
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drat Bananas posted:Firstly, I've gotten the opposite flack from a (human) med student for my ER doctor not stitching my own wound - the med student says they always stitch dog bites but do not stitch human bites. My doc said he doesn't stitch the dog bites so it allows them to drain. I think it probably comes down to both methods having pros and cons depending on the situation. Roger has big flappy ears that he likes to shake around, and since it was a jagged through-and-through, they didn't want his constant flapping to tear it open further. Or heck, maybe get a toenail stuck in the ear piercing and tear it all the way to the edge. That's just my guess, though. I understand that there are varying opinions, but human med is not vet med. We are taught by board-certified surgeons and they taught us to never close a bite wound. They state that improper debridement and wound management is a very common cause of infection and delayed wound healing. They state that antibiotics are never a good substitute for proper wound management. I know the ear is an awkward location but I have seen them manage ear wounds and it's possible. A lot of bite wounds here never even have to go on antibiotics because of good wound management techniques. Antibiotics are definitely indicated if your dog develops a fever (although I wonder if he would've if they didn't close his wound), but it's still not Baytril yet. They will regret the Baytril if his ear continues to not do well and they culture it and find that it's resistant to everything (but I hope that doesn't happen). I hope that it all heals up nicely and everything's ok at his next recheck, but after reading your posts I just felt like I had to say something (I even asked Pile of Kittens beforehand because I was pretty hesitant to make my previous post).
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Apr 11, 2013 00:07
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Braki posted:I understand that there are varying opinions, but human med is not vet med. We are taught by board-certified surgeons and they taught us to never close a bite wound. They state that improper debridement and wound management is a very common cause of infection and delayed wound healing. They state that antibiotics are never a good substitute for proper wound management. I know the ear is an awkward location but I have seen them manage ear wounds and it's possible. A lot of bite wounds here never even have to go on antibiotics because of good wound management techniques. Antibiotics are definitely indicated if your dog develops a fever (although I wonder if he would've if they didn't close his wound), but it's still not Baytril yet. They will regret the Baytril if his ear continues to not do well and they culture it and find that it's resistant to everything (but I hope that doesn't happen). I'm right there with you Braki. Where I work we see tons of dog fight wounds, many instigated by the numerous "pit bull" type dogs that are popular here. I haven't found an issue with weird bacterial resistance - I've found that on the dogs with numerous (like three dozen over half the body on a fluffy dog) punctures and lacerations that I'll inevitably miss one or two for antiseptic rinsing and cleaning and when they come back in two or three days for some weird swelling and maybe mild fever (while being on antibiotics) that cleaning out the one (and removing the hair mat plugging the hole) I missed will get it better. Long story short for the anecdotal evidence to back up Braki's teaching (they weren't lying in school!). Cats are different primarily because they have in sharp teeth that puncture deep while not leaving good drainage, thus establishing a safe harbor for the bacteria, however there can be some interesting bacterial species depending on their home environment (grooming!). I have not seen any study (and I have looked) saying that a breed has worse bacteria than others, thus the anecdotal evidence. I would say that diet could be a big part - what is the difference in mouth flora of a dog on kibble, wet food, raw/partial processed, or whole prey diets? That would be interesting.
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Apr 11, 2013 00:24
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To be clear, I HAVE TALKED TO MY VET. My 27 pound pug mix managed to eat an entire sleeve of Thin Mints. I have been pouring as much hydrogen peroxide down her throat as I can (one teaspoon at a time). This has been going on for 90 minutes now and she still hasn't thrown up. She is showing no signs of distress, and what was brutally difficult the first time (getting the peroxide down her throat) is now drat near impossible. She's ridiculously strong and I'm alone. The vet said to give it to her every five minutes until she threw up, but she still hasn't. The vet is closed now of course. I should also mention that this dog has eaten things that would blow your mind and pretty much never has a problem with them. Keep pouring the stuff? Stop but watch her carefully? Take her to the emergency vet?
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Apr 11, 2013 00:29
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How long ago did she eat the thin mints? How much peroxide have you given? If it's actually close to a teaspoon every 5 minutes for 90 minutes, that is a huge amount - enough to make your dog sick (peroxide is very irritating to the stomach/guts) without the chocolate. If it were my dog, I'd go to the emergency vet now based on that amount of chocolate. They have drugs to induce vomiting that work a lot more reliably than peroxide. It's possible the dog will be fine or only have signs of stomach upset, but that wouldn't be worth the risk to me personally. If you're really limited financially, I'd call the emergency vet and seek further advice. You'll get a advice faster by calling them than by posting here anyway.
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Apr 11, 2013 00:57
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Crooked Booty posted:How long ago did she eat the thin mints? How much peroxide have you given? If it's actually close to a teaspoon every 5 minutes for 90 minutes, that is a huge amount - enough to make your dog sick (peroxide is very irritating to the stomach/guts) without the chocolate. If it were my dog, I'd go to the emergency vet now based on that amount of chocolate. They have drugs to induce vomiting that work a lot more reliably than peroxide. It's possible the dog will be fine or only have signs of stomach upset, but that wouldn't be worth the risk to me personally. If you're really limited financially, I'd call the emergency vet and seek further advice. You'll get a advice faster by calling them than by posting here anyway. Going on two and a half hours. No, she has not had that much peroxide (I'm thinking seven or eight teaspoons max, and she was fighting so I doubt that she got anywhere near the full volume of each dose), but certainly enough to induce vomiting in every other dog I've owned. I had a 60+ lb St. Bernard mix when I was a kid that threw up after ingesting much less peroxide. Ok, calling the emergency vet.
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Apr 11, 2013 01:06
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There's a bit of a rain-storm going on now, and I guess now would be a good time to ask this - is there any way to calm down a scared dog during a storm? My one dog turns into a shaking mass of hair and drool, the other one couldn't care less.
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Apr 11, 2013 02:04
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scarycave posted:There's a bit of a rain-storm going on now, and I guess now would be a good time to ask this - is there any way to calm down a scared dog during a storm? My one dog turns into a shaking mass of hair and drool, the other one couldn't care less. No personal experience, but from what I've heard, you just talk to them in a calm voice and distract them with a toy or a game or whatever.
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Apr 11, 2013 02:12
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scarycave posted:There's a bit of a rain-storm going on now, and I guess now would be a good time to ask this - is there any way to calm down a scared dog during a storm? My one dog turns into a shaking mass of hair and drool, the other one couldn't care less. Have you tried a thunder shirt? They're expensive, but you can make your own to try it out before buying the expensive thing. There's a bunch of methods out there, just google dog anxiety wrap DIY. Here's one as an example. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Ed80FVFRo I know it sounds kind of bogus but I swear it works amazingly with some dogs.
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Apr 11, 2013 02:16
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Nyarai posted:No personal experience, but from what I've heard, you just talk to them in a calm voice and distract them with a toy or a game or whatever. Afraid that doesn't work with her - she won't play with toys at all unless she's outside, she won't even take treats. I try to keep her close by and stroke her but she never seems to stop shaking. Meanwhile the other one just plops up next to me and falls asleep.
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Apr 11, 2013 02:18
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scarycave posted:There's a bit of a rain-storm going on now, and I guess now would be a good time to ask this - is there any way to calm down a scared dog during a storm? My one dog turns into a shaking mass of hair and drool, the other one couldn't care less. I have a friend whose dog does really well with the Thundershirt. She would usually howl and drool and generally get freaked out by thunderstorms and fireworks and does a lot better with the Thundershirt. My dog has fairly minor storm/firework fear, and I think it was a little bit helpful for her too, but not as extreme as with my friends dog. But then my friends dogs reactions were more extreme to begin with.
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Apr 11, 2013 02:18
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scarycave posted:There's a bit of a rain-storm going on now, and I guess now would be a good time to ask this - is there any way to calm down a scared dog during a storm? My one dog turns into a shaking mass of hair and drool, the other one couldn't care less. It depends on what is reassuring to your dog and how serious the phobia is. When my dog went through a period of noise phobia whenever there was a storm we would go in a back bedroom and close all the curtains, turn on a loud fan and some relaxing music, put on his thundershirt, and get him settled in on the bed with a stuffed kong. I also played very quiet storm noises during his meals for a while until he didn't have any reaction to the sounds even turned way up. Some dogs really just need a dark place to hide, some benefit a lot from thundershirts or other tight wraps, some need slow desensitization, some need the help of a behaviorist and medication. Here's a couple resources for more info about storm phobias.
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Apr 11, 2013 02:19
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I have two indoor cats and am looking to adopt a dog somewhere down the line. The cats have fallen a bit behind on their vaccines, but I wasn't too worried since they're 100% indoor. I've lurked Pet Island long enough to read about vaccine-associated sarcomas, so I don't want to needlessly risk my cats' lives. At the same time, I figure any rescue would see their not up to dateness as a sign of me being a crappy pet owner. (It might be.) What should I do here?  EDIT: Since the rabies is so important from a legal standpoint, we were going to do that one regardless during the townships' annual anti-rabies clinic. However, this description worries me. quote:The vaccine will be given to dogs and cats age four months or older. If the owner can show proof that the animal has previously received a rabies inoculation, the vaccine will have a three-year duration date. Does that mean they're using the adjuvated vaccine? Nyarai fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 05:00
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Nyarai posted:
Probably, since the recombinant one is only labeled for 1 year.
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Apr 11, 2013 05:08
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Dr. Chaco posted:Probably, since the recombinant one is only labeled for 1 year. Welp, gently caress that. Gonna talk to my vet and see what they recommend. It'll cost extra, but I think the peace of mind is worth it.
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Apr 11, 2013 05:14
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And feline leukemia you can actually drag inside yourself on your shoes or clothes. I would say it's always worth it to vaccinate against FLV. It's a judgment call but it's a nasty disease. The vaccine-caused sarcomas are rare and there's ways to give the vaccine (that everyone trained correctly should do) that means even if your car develops one it should be easy to remove and relatively harmless. It can be sort of a toss up for indoor cats because both getting the diseases to your indoor cats somehow and getting a sarcoma from a vaccine are rare. Personally I'd give them the vaccines to ease my mind in case they got out, and rabies seems like a good cert to keep on hand for rescuing a dog (and after I got a dog I would vaccinate for sure because dogs bring in gross germs and fleas and detritus from outside).
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Apr 11, 2013 17:29
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InEscape posted:And feline leukemia you can actually drag inside yourself on your shoes or clothes. InEscape posted:The vaccine-caused sarcomas are rare and there's ways to give the vaccine (that everyone trained correctly should do) that means even if your car develops one it should be easy to remove and relatively harmless.
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Apr 11, 2013 17:59
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The cats are 5 & 6, so not at high risk for feline leukemia. Leon (my big black cat) did get out once. He hopped out a window with no screen, circled the house, then climbed onto the deck and meowed to be let back in.  He wasn't injured and has since been fine, but since we're moving end of May (prime opportunity for cat escapes), rabies and distemper are definitely on the to-do list before then.(On a funny note, Noel hissed at "Strange Outdoor Cat" with gusto, but acted like nothing had happened once he came back in. Probably because she couldn't smell him.) Edit: Whoops, almost forgot. 
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Apr 11, 2013 18:08
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Instant Jellyfish posted:It depends on what is reassuring to your dog and how serious the phobia is. When my dog went through a period of noise phobia whenever there was a storm we would go in a back bedroom and close all the curtains, turn on a loud fan and some relaxing music, put on his thundershirt, and get him settled in on the bed with a stuffed kong. I also played very quiet storm noises during his meals for a while until he didn't have any reaction to the sounds even turned way up. Thanks for the advice guys, I don't think I can get a thunder shirt right now and were supposed to be getting another storm tomorrow you think putting on her jacket might help her out? We used to have these medications for her that were supposed to help but she wouldn't eat them at all. I remember that she used to wait and a room and wouldn't leave at all during a storm and you had to physically lift her out. She seems to have gotten a lot better now and she'll follow me around or come to me if I call her. Last night she actually ended up behind me so she may just be using me as a human-shield.
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Apr 11, 2013 18:47
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Hi all. I am looking to replace my doggy door. I want to get a cat and I don't want the cat to be able to go outside, but I want the dog to be able to go in and out as he pleases. I'm looking at amazon for the magnetic doors and it seems the magnet only restricts pets coming in but not going out. Does anyone have experience with this? Can anyone recommend a good product? Thanks!
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Apr 12, 2013 20:02
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StarryEyed posted:Hi all. I am looking to replace my doggy door. I want to get a cat and I don't want the cat to be able to go outside, but I want the dog to be able to go in and out as he pleases. I'm looking at amazon for the magnetic doors and it seems the magnet only restricts pets coming in but not going out. You can get electronic pet doors (just use this as a search term and several will come up) that open when a collar is near. I don't know how quickly they'd open/shut though, so it might be possible that the cat could sneak out quickly if he was so inclined.
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Apr 12, 2013 20:09
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I'm curious if anyone's had any experience with cold laser therapy for arthritis in dogs. The vet is into the idea for Balen and it sounds decent enough, so I'm not second guessing her by any means. I'm just curious if anyone's seen it work.
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Apr 12, 2013 20:35
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How often can a kitten/cat go into heat? My roommate's cat is not neutered and she's been posturing and yelling all day. I'm fairly certain it's only been a few weeks since the last one, and it feels like it must be too soon. I'm going to lose my mind hearing poor River scream all day. (Disclaimer: my sister and I have been trying very hard to get him to take her for a spay; our two cats have been since we first adopted them several years ago.)
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Apr 12, 2013 23:04
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Unlike dogs who come into season... seasonally (about every 6 months), female cats come into season every few weeks during the breeding season until they fall pregnant. They can also get pregnant almost immediately after giving birth. Your roommate should get his cat spayed ASAP to prevent both your and the cat's misery. Google low cost neuter clinics in your area and hopefully you can find something.
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Apr 12, 2013 23:09
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Hopes Fall posted:How often can a kitten/cat go into heat? Every 21 days for 7 days until she gets knocked up! Enjoy!
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Apr 13, 2013 00:16
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http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/spayneuter/ Spays are a bit more expensive than neuters, but they're way cheaper than dealing with a litter of kittens.  Get him to schedule her now for once this heat cycle is over. The sooner the better. Nyarai fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Apr 13, 2013 |
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Apr 13, 2013 00:36
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Fluffy Bunnies posted:I'm curious if anyone's had any experience with cold laser therapy for arthritis in dogs. The vet is into the idea for Balen and it sounds decent enough, so I'm not second guessing her by any means. I'm just curious if anyone's seen it work. One of the local clinics here swears by it, but I've never had any first hand experience with it. Afaik, there isn't any good research into how effective it may or may not be - the proponents tend to be really almost born-again evangelical types (not actually religious people, just fanatical-like with this machine) when it comes to this modality which just kinda weirds me out. So far, as long as its done right technically nothing bad should come of it. If the price is right I'd say give it a shot - it's like glucosamine/chondroitin and acupuncture for me. Probably wont hurt, might help.
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Apr 13, 2013 02:17
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