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Jonny Angel posted:VODs are here. It's definitely a more uneven scene than NA or EU, so many 4-0 series sweeps there. Wow, TPA looks to be the absolute #1 team. Only 1 match lost out of 28. They are considered worlds best team, right?
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May 7, 2013 08:03
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Nope, or at least not definitively. They've been schooling Southeast Asia, but their international performance has been far less dominant since Worlds. At IPL 5, they lost 4 straight games to Fnatic without winning any, and at Starswar they went 0-2 to World Elite (who are really, really good) and Positive Energy (who are much less known, currently ranked 4th out of 8th in China's LCS equivalent). Like I mentioned in my previous post, Southeast Asia just seems really really uneven in skill level, with no real equivalent competition for TPA. They're still very strong, but not as strong as a 27-1 record seems to indicate. As for Brazil, it sadly looks like they're just not up to snuff with the rest of the world. At IEM Sao Paulo, there were 4 Brazilian teams, 3 second-string European teams, and 1 second-string Korean team. No Brazilian team made it out of the group stage, and out of the 8 games that Brazilian teams played against non-Brazilian teams, they won 1. At IEM World Champs, they brought the top-ranked Brazilian team along anyway, and they went 1-4 in the group stage (against some admittedly impressive opponents). It'd definitely be cool to see more international tournaments that include Brazil, or other ways for them to get exposure to top competition and evolve their scene. But if you put them in Worlds right now, they'll just flounder and be easy wins for far more established teams.
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May 7, 2013 08:24
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Also note the second best team in southeast Asia is TPA's sister team, TPS, who formed too late to qualify for Garena. Every other team in the entire region would probably be the worst in a 16-team world championship. TPA's big problem is their elite support player, who was also their shotcaller, went to TPS when they formed. They've not really replaced that shotcalling and have been struggling ever since. Plus WE and IG caught up big time; they're probably the best two in the world right now, though it's hard to say definitively. Especially as form seems to be pretty fleeting in League -- take, for example, TSM, who were in the biggest rut at the end of season 2 and beginning of season 3, and then went 7-0 to finish the regular season, came top of the group stage and won the playoffs of the LCS.
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May 7, 2013 08:44
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Additionally, despite there being very good reason to consider IG and WE the two best teams in the world, they're actually not 1st and 2nd place in the Chinese LPL right now. At least for the moment, OMG is showing they can absolutely hang with those two.
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May 7, 2013 09:09
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I would caution against crowning anyone best in the world atm. Top 10 or 12 maybe, but getring specific... It's tough! Atm the top 8 teams in OGL are all brilliant and very closely matches (with probably KT B, Sword (depending on the day) and SKT #2 as the standouts). It's incredible to see how much the skill level has surged in Korea in the past 5 months during S3; champions winter was amazing but spring is a whole new level. I'm excited to see All Stars (although I'd prefer a mini-worlds where the top ranked teams compete over allstars)
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May 7, 2013 09:22
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Brazil is still pretty new, they just got their own server so you have to give them time to start forming their own teams. Even though they've always played on NA anyway, having their own server will help push things along. Getting a Korean server really helped their scene too. I really hope the SEA teams get better because they all have awesome names and great logos.
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May 7, 2013 09:35
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So, realistically, who from outside Asia could hang? I honestly could only see m5, Fnatic and, if they got their collective heads out of their asses, EG, do it. TSM, SK and CW would all go in the "maybe" column for me. CW are a bit weird for me because a couple of their players (mainly Bjergsen, but also Svenskeren) are absolute top-tier and could go head-to-head against anyone, but they have some weak spots too (Goodbro if Shen and Singed are banned, TheTess whenever he's not far ahead). Contrast this to TSM and SK who, to me, seem mostly homogenous in skill levels across the team, and as a result, in a way have less room for improvement. Ocelote varies a lot from game to game, but I wouldn't rank him a top mid personally. He has too many bad games. If Goodbro learns 1-2 more champions and TheTess learns to right-click dudes, I think Wolves are gonna be able to compete with fnatic and m5 for the top spots this summer. As for EG, I really don't know what the gently caress. Wickd is overrated and Froggen needs to play more aggressive champions and try to make plays, because he's a lot better at it than people think.
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May 7, 2013 09:56
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The Mash posted:So, realistically, who from outside Asia could hang? I honestly could only see m5, Fnatic and, if they got their collective heads out of their asses, EG, do it. is NA so far behind that their best team only falls into the "maybe" column? I always thought Curse was a pretty good team, but after the playoffs, I gotta admit they looked pretty bad, and not as a team at all. Mostly Sct initiating at times where the team was not ready to follow up and then losing teamfights.
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May 7, 2013 10:00
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Allyn posted:TPA's big problem is their elite support player, who was also their shotcaller, went to TPS when they formed. They've not really replaced that shotcalling and have been struggling ever since. That, plus many fans say that TPA's jungler (Lilballz) has been struggling given S3's jungle changes. He's been trying out a lot of support junglers (mostly Alistar and Taric jungle) but was essentially unable to make plays. There have been rumors that the team plans to kick him out for some jungler off TW ladder. During the S2 championships, TPA (iirc) had dominating laning phases. I've watched a couple games in S3 where they lost, and they were slipping behind in farm in every lane, which was unusual for them. Is it the jungler's fault? I'm too much of a scrub to be able to tell, but that's one telling sign, I guess. In any case, TPA has definitely been struggling of late.
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May 7, 2013 10:53
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Da Monk posted:is NA so far behind that their best team only falls into the "maybe" column? I always thought Curse was a pretty good team, but after the playoffs, I gotta admit they looked pretty bad, and not as a team at all. Mostly Sct initiating at times where the team was not ready to follow up and then losing teamfights. The better teams (at the moment only TSM, sometimes Dignitas/CLG/Curse) look decent in events featuring only American teams but for the last year and a half, more or less, they've gotten shitstomped whenever they've come up against good Asian and European teams. I literally cannot remember m5 ever losing against an American team. They've lost about 50% of their games against CLG.EU and have had the occasional blunder against other European teams, mainly Fnatic, and they've lost close games against the best Asian teams (2-1 against TPA at worlds IIRC), but never against an American team. That's my memory of offline tournaments anyway. Online tournaments for $50 and an RP card are different, but they generally dick around and use subs and weird champions in those. E: And looking at all the tournaments they participated in, I could only find that solitary Best of 1 group stage loss to Curse. That's their only loss to an American team, ever. E: Here's m5s tournament record: 2012 January 22nd, 1st place at IEM Season VI - Global Challenge Kiev. (beat Dignitas and TSM) January 31st, 2nd place in Kings of Europe. - Lost to CLG.EU March 10th, 1st place at IEM Season VI - World Championship. (beat TSM and Curse in group stage, CLG and Dignitas in knockouts) May 24th, 2nd place in ESL Major Series Season IX. - Lost to Team Alternate June 18th, 2nd place at DreamHack Summer 2012. - Lost to CLG.EU July 29th, 1st place at European Challenger Circuit: Poland. August 19th, 1st place at Season Two European Regional Finals. September 25th, 3rd place in ESL Major Series Season X. - Lost to what I think is now GIANTS October 10th, 3rd-4th place in Season 2 World Championship. - Lost to TPA December 2nd, 4th place in IGN ProLeague Season 5. - Lost to WE in winner's bracket and TPA in loser's bracket. Beat Curse and CLG as well as Azubu Blaze 2013 January 20th, 1st place at IEM Season VII - Global Challenge Katowice. Lost to Curse in group stage (!) but shat on both Azubus in knockouts to win it. March 9th, 3rd/4th place at IEM Season VII - World Championship. Lost to Frost. April 28th, 2nd place at LCS Europe Season 3 Spring Playoffs. Lost to Fnatic. Essentially, m5 are a pretty good measuring stick between regions because they have been arguably the most consistent team in the world since they introduced us to Shyvanna in early 2012 and they play quite a few cross-continent tournaments. Based on their record vs NA teams, all the American teams are rubbish and would get trounced by the Asian teams as well as Fnatic/EG. As they also do. The Mash fucked around with this message at 11:44 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 11:29
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Da Monk posted:is NA so far behind that their best team only falls into the "maybe" column? I always thought Curse was a pretty good team, but after the playoffs, I gotta admit they looked pretty bad, and not as a team at all. Mostly Sct initiating at times where the team was not ready to follow up and then losing teamfights. The general consensus is yes. I think they can do better this time around though. The NA scene is playing a lot better since LCS and unlike last year, foreign games are easy to find and study. Now, the million dollar question is, "will they study and do the work?" and even if they do, can they perform? Depending on how Summer LCS goes I guess we will find out. They will all probably get knocked out first round. 
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May 7, 2013 11:59
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Damiya posted:It's incredible to see how much the skill level has surged in Korea in the past 5 months during S3; champions winter was amazing but spring is a whole new level. Even the worst Korean teams would give most of the NA teams fits. AHQ Korea, for instance, who isn't going forward in the OGN, would thrash most NA teams I think. EU is a lot stronger, or at least a lot deeper. The top 5 EU teams could probably all at least compete with the Korean teams. TheMash posted:So, realistically, who from outside Asia could hang? I honestly could only see m5, Fnatic and, if they got their collective heads out of their asses, EG, do it. Fnatic, M5, EG, (maybe SK and CW) could all compete with Asian teams. Don't sleep on EG - they are way better now than they were at the beginning of the season.
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May 7, 2013 12:58
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Da Monk posted:Wow, TPA looks to be the absolute #1 team. Only 1 match lost out of 28. They are considered worlds best team, right? Here is a list of pro teams in the world that are ranked by this site: http://www.lolportal.net/Teams Not definite or set in stone, but pretty much overall looks at full body of work in the last 18 months (also looks like the site records/ratings haven't been updated in one month or more for most teams).
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May 7, 2013 15:05
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Libertine posted:Here is a list of pro teams in the world that are ranked by this site: I'd be interested to see what their rankings look like if they just look at season 3. I imagine it would be pretty different. Rolster B, for instance, would look much better.
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May 7, 2013 15:10
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Sexpansion posted:I'd be interested to see what their rankings look like if they just look at season 3. I imagine it would be pretty different. Rolster B, for instance, would look much better. Yeah that's a pretty big criticism I would levy at the site. Since the game has changed completely since S2 and most teams have played a big sample of games since then, you'd think they'd eliminate those parts of the record, but I'm not sure. This is the only site I've found that even attempts a ranking statistically.
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May 7, 2013 15:12
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Da Monk posted:is NA so far behind that their best team only falls into the "maybe" column? I always thought Curse was a pretty good team, but after the playoffs, I gotta admit they looked pretty bad, and not as a team at all. Mostly Sct initiating at times where the team was not ready to follow up and then losing teamfights. Problem with NA is they all seem to have a player who is mechanically weak. Reginald on TSM, St Vicious on Crs, Hotshotgg on CLG. NA also seems to have a very limited champion pool with the same usual suspects coming out: Rumble, Karthus, and TF come to mind. You also notice compared to EU's top teams they have trouble closing out games. Either they extend laning too long or stalling becomes a very good tactic against NA teams. Occasionally you'll see a really tight game where they can close it out sub 30 minutes but often it comes down to who wins the team fights in the NA scene and less about who is pressuring and controlling the map better. Which just seems a whole lot more random on whether they win. The real reason TSM is dominant is cause they are good at closing down a game after they gain an advantage if they are on the Backfoot they really suck on coming back.
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May 7, 2013 15:29
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Sexpansion posted:Even the worst Korean teams would give most of the NA teams fits. AHQ Korea, for instance, who isn't going forward in the OGN, would thrash most NA teams I think. Someone didn't mention Froggen earlier and he's definitely still a world class mid imo. Also IIRC there was some respect for DoubleLift from players/spectators in some Asian scene (Korean i think?).
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May 7, 2013 15:50
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Zoness posted:Someone didn't mention Froggen earlier and he's definitely still a world class mid imo. I still think Froggen is the best mid in the world.
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May 7, 2013 15:55
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I think Froggen has dropped down a notch recently. I think he really gets outplayed on the regular from Alex Ich, xPeke, and Bjergesen. I think he's solidly 4th in the Europe, which doesn't make him world class in my mind. I don't know how much that is him and how much that is EG just not fully clicking this season. He wasn't even in the running in All-star voting, so it's not just my perception that he's behind at least Alex and xPeke.
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May 7, 2013 16:03
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Libertine posted:I think Froggen has dropped down a notch recently. I think he really gets outplayed on the regular from Alex Ich, xPeke, and Bjergesen. I think he's solidly 4th in the Europe, which doesn't make him world class in my mind. I don't know how much that is him and how much that is EG just not fully clicking this season. He wasn't even in the running in All-star voting, so it's not just my perception that he's behind at least Alex and xPeke. The All Star voting also has a lot to do with how the team is perceived and EG is not as popular anymore. As far as overrated players go though I have to say I think Diamondprox is overrated. He's good but he also plays selfishly regarding KDA instead of trying to give his ADC or Top the kills he'll take them and yet because he's a jungler he will build tank. Also don't think his jungler pool is as large as the new upcoming junglers on the EU scene. Damien and Genja seem to get a lot of blame for throwing Gambit's games but I think it's more of an effect if they can get strong despite Diamondprox taxing their lanes and taking their kills.
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May 7, 2013 16:26
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IBentMyWookie posted:The All Star voting also has a lot to do with how the team is perceived and EG is not as popular anymore. As far as overrated players go though I have to say I think Diamondprox is overrated. He's good but he also plays selfishly regarding KDA instead of trying to give his ADC or Top the kills he'll take them and yet because he's a jungler he will build tank. Also don't think his jungler pool is as large as the new upcoming junglers on the EU scene. Damien and Genja seem to get a lot of blame for throwing Gambit's games but I think it's more of an effect if they can get strong despite Diamondprox taxing their lanes and taking their kills. Diamondprox gets a lot of credit for how much he innovated in season 2. Is he that good now? I don't know. What I do know is that no one is better than InSec; none of the NA or EU junglers come close in my opinion.
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May 7, 2013 17:16
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I hear that a lot about Diamondprox innovating. I missed Season 2 completely. What is he credited for?
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May 7, 2013 17:39
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IBentMyWookie posted:I hear that a lot about Diamondprox innovating. I missed Season 2 completely. What is he credited for? He was the first person to counter-jungle extensively.
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May 7, 2013 17:40
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IBentMyWookie posted:I hear that a lot about Diamondprox innovating. I missed Season 2 completely. What is he credited for? Just off the top of my head: 1) First person to successfully play Shyvana in pro games and also heavily counter-jungling enemies all over the map, basically established his team's style of jungle dominance with that strategy. 2) First person in pro scene to successfully jungle both Nasus and Volibear in Season 3 and you can see how the entire world from pro to casual players has copied that verbatim. In those LCS games where he started that, the announcers were absolutely shocked he was rolling that out when he first picked them, and then literally a week later it was FOTM. 3) First jungler to realize the cost effective strength of the standard rush a Locket/Aegis build which is pretty much been adapted on everyone in the pro scene as the standard jungle build now in S3. 4) His play of Lee Sin, Udyr and Xin Zhao is also world class and he's pretty much known as among the best in the world at all of those champions.
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May 7, 2013 17:51
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I think Svenskaren's xin zhao play could give diamondprox a run for his money by now, honestly.Failboattootoot posted:The general consensus is yes. I think they can do better this time around though. The NA scene is playing a lot better since LCS and unlike last year, foreign games are easy to find and study. Now, the million dollar question is, "will they study and do the work?" and even if they do, can they perform? Depending on how Summer LCS goes I guess we will find out. I think NA actually has a much better chance now that new teams and players are moving into the upper echelons. Crs, CLG, and Dignitas are amazingly stale, with long term players that haven't improved in years, and the only reason I'm not including TSM in this is their decision to add Wildturtle to the roster and step things up. If any team has a chance to bring something to the international stage, I'd say it's GGU.
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May 7, 2013 17:58
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IBentMyWookie posted:As far as overrated players go though I have to say I think Diamondprox is overrated. He's good but he also plays selfishly regarding KDA instead of trying to give his ADC or Top the kills he'll take them and yet because he's a jungler he will build tank. Also don't think his jungler pool is as large as the new upcoming junglers on the EU scene. Damien and Genja seem to get a lot of blame for throwing Gambit's games but I think it's more of an effect if they can get strong despite Diamondprox taxing their lanes and taking their kills. First off, Darien almost always builds tanky, so it's not like he's "stealing" kills there. Second, I looked at the stats for he final 3 weeks of LCS and, the percentage of kills on the jungler was abnormally high for Gambit, at 20.2%. But Copenhagen Wolves had a statistically identical number for Svenskeren, at 20.8%. Svenskeren gets rightfully praised too. It's not about them dragging their teams down, it's about a combination of different styles of play and just not wanting to let kills go (or not being able to coordinate "who gets this?" in the heat of a gank/teamfight). When Diamond gets fed, he doesn't just sit on his rear end, he makes big plays and is an unkillable beast wrecking the enemy back line.
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May 7, 2013 18:51
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Sexpansion posted:Diamondprox gets a lot of credit for how much he innovated in season 2. Is he that good now? I don't know. What I do know is that no one is better than InSec; none of the NA or EU junglers come close in my opinion. The Korean teams used to think Diamond was the best anyway, you can't really compare Insec to others because his team give him so much lane farm.
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May 7, 2013 19:01
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Donald Duck posted:The Korean teams used to think Diamond was the best anyway, you can't really compare Insec to others because his team give him so much lane farm. Here's the thing you have to consider though - not only can InSec play all the standard junglers, he also jungles almost every champion his midlaner plays. This gives Rolster B so much flexibility in champ select, it's ridiculous. They win a lot of games at champ select because of InSec's huge pool.
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May 7, 2013 19:38
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I know it's been a little while, but I think GGU could be up there amongst the best international teams given some time. A couple iterations ago, as Team Dynamic, in their first month or so of existence they took down M5 in a bo3. They're incredibly erratic, but if they fix that I genuinely think they could be pretty drat good.
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May 7, 2013 19:55
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RIP ZEEZ
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Sexpansion posted:I still think Froggen is the best mid in the world. At his height in S2 Froggen had a serious claim to being the best player in the world period, the way he carried his team back then was incredible. He's definitely lost a bit of his mojo from back then though, his lapse in form is a fairly big reason for EGs late season slump I think. They need him to be the big playmaker, and he was struggling to win his lane let alone roam and make plays during their big losing streak.
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May 7, 2013 20:06
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The mid laner for Sinners Never Sleep chimed in on the EU Mid lane discussion today: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1dvi7g/we_are_team_sinners_never_sleep_and_recently/c9u8fqw
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May 7, 2013 20:55
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If you want to see Azure Cats and how they play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86F05zB3D9M OR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzEB2WDSvCw Spoiler alert: they are loving good. e: also one of the casters is awful semicolonsrock fucked around with this message at 22:53 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 22:08
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Zahki posted:At his height in S2 Froggen had a serious claim to being the best player in the world period, the way he carried his team back then was incredible. He's definitely lost a bit of his mojo from back then though, his lapse in form is a fairly big reason for EGs late season slump I think. They need him to be the big playmaker, and he was struggling to win his lane let alone roam and make plays during their big losing streak. During S2 championships, Toyz posted about his opinions on other mid laners, as translated by some redditor (I'm a TPA fan, can't you tell?). But essentially, this: TPA Toyz, as translated by some redditor posted:The team has provided him so much support and coordination that exceeds an oridinary mid lane usualy has. Consider a level 1 karthus getting wraiths, wolves and blue, leaving nothing for snoopeh and it caused trouble for him. Of course I know that the core of the team is around froggen. There's no question Froggen's a dominant midlaner, but he does have a ton of support from his teammates just so that he can carry harder. But anyway Froggen essentially looks like that gross kid in 5th grade who still eats his boogers and so I'm obligated to hate him.
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May 7, 2013 22:28
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In Season 3, Diamond pretty much pioneered the whole tanky aura jungler adaptation and introduced Nasus and Volibear, among other champs. He's pretty much without peer in terms of jungling innovation.
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May 7, 2013 22:31
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The casters on that Azure Cats game both seem awful, one seems like he's trying pretty hard to get himself over and the other is way too mumbly. vvv Here are kinds of games that actually provide good evidence of "this team is really good": - Complete preposterous stomps, like the one 19-minute Dig vs. Col game in LCS. - Clawing back from a ridiculous deficit through sheer teamfight dominance, like Quantic vs. Curse Academy in the last LCS qualifier tourney. - Outshining the opponent in every teamfight, keeping everyone on your team alive with slivers of health while you ace them, like KTRB vs. Gambit at MLG Dallas. Completely agree that that Azure Cats game is none of those. Jenny Angel fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 22:31
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semicolonsrock posted:Spoiler alert: they are loving good. After taking the early lead 4-1 in a somewhat lucky gank (this would never happen vs a good team), they lose their advantage by giving up 3 deaths and letting their opponent back in it. Anyone can snowball after an early victory like they had.
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May 7, 2013 22:37
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Ninkobei posted:After taking the early lead 4-1 in a somewhat lucky gank (this would never happen vs a good team), they lose their advantage by giving up 3 deaths and letting their opponent back in it. Anyone can snowball after an early victory like they had. Yeah the casters are terribad. That's probably not the best example (though I think that even though strategically a better team might not do that, beating them in the fight mechanically was impressive too). Watch some of the other games linked, that was probably one of their worst. In the finals of that qual tourney (vs an arguably better team) they get a 20 minute surrender the first game and then have a 37:12 kill game the second game on their way to a 2-0. I would not be surprised at all if they knocked out CLG.
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May 8, 2013 06:53
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RE: Brazil They got their own in-country server all of what, two months ago? I think by winter we'll have some legit pro Brazilian teams. Not necessarily SEA quality, but definitely enough to give most of NA and a bunch of EU a run for their money. RE: USA NA needs to stop the roster changes and start practicing more. Curse fell a bunch because Rhux sucks at support. WildTurtle on TSM is still in the air, and some people say Dig made a poor choice with Kiwikid. At the same time, the fall of all of these teams is showing that the old guard is starting to crumble. Whether this is due to hubris or an inability to compete mechanically with newer players is yet to be seen. Overall though, until the various "scenes" are forced to play each other more, the regions with stagnate. We need Worlds twice a year and the IEMs or whatever to bring all the teams together and force them to get better (and in the case of NA, get themselves to EU and then SEA levels). I think each team in the LCS is better than they were when the season started, but without the cross competition, they're not going to innovate like they could.
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May 8, 2013 21:06
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Schiavona posted:RE: Brazil If Brazil dominates the world scene at some point I think that would be the funniest outcome possible. Them dominating NA would also be epic considering the amount of hate brazilians got on NA servers. NA is just mentally weak. The amount of trash talking and infighting drama that goes on inside the pro network of teams is not a healthy way to build a strong competitive scene. They really could use some coaching on just general teamplay attitudes and sportsmanship. It's like none of these kids ever played on a team in any other sport before. Not destroying your teammate's confidence or morale is like team play 101.
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May 8, 2013 21:16
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I watch the Brazilian Pain Gaming guys whenever they are on stream on Twitch. Both brTT and Espeon (their ADC and Support players) stream a lot, and they are both extremely good. I don't know what high ELO games are like in BR ladder vs. NA ladder, but they pretty much always dominate. I'd also like to see more of them in Int'l competitions.
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May 8, 2013 21:21
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