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Why is it that whenever a developer of any kind comes on these forums, everyone goes from providing feedback to outright telling them how they should make their own game? It just seem completely unreasonable that we no longer give them the benefit of doubt to produce their own interactive media just because they stop by to say, "Hi." Edit: I've been drinking and playing MechWarrior again.1 Slosh op best op. Edit3: Holy crap, the new internet explorer totally auto-fixed my drunk post. 
Back Hack fucked around with this message at 04:38 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 04:34
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Not entirely! And yeah I'm not trying to tell Kairo how to make the game or anything like that, lord knows I'm a terrible person to solicit opinions from. I just miss when Freespace 2 was new and amazing, FSO can only go so far to scratch the itch 
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May 4, 2013 04:41
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Ciaphas posted:Speaking of which, Kairo, I'm going to express a counter opinion and say the capital ships should have as many noisy death-dealing Oh don't get me wrong, I love that poo poo. It just proves problematic for "Battle of Endor" scenarios. Edit: Oddly enough, the real Battle of Endor only had one mega death laser in it anyways BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 05:05 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 05:02
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beam weapons Freespace 2 style as they can possibly hold. Then a couple more.
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Ciaphas posted:Speaking of which, Kairo, I'm going to express a counter opinion and say the capital ships should have as many noisy death-dealing Y'know, since we're doling out advice, and also projecting our every desire onto this game... I'd also say to be a little free with the physics and such of your ships, their weapons, their vulnerabilities. Take advantage of this opportunity to do something that most of these games don't do. WARNING: I haven't played the venerated Freespace all the way through, sorry if my following description doesn't match it, or if space shooters have advanced past the points I'm making. I've spent a lot of years without a joystick. Ships in sci-fi shooters seem to always have magic bubble shields that you just have to pick apart like hit points, and only then can you crack the individual weak bits of the ship... only to find that HULL = 99%, and that it goes down each time you hit it from any direction, with gouts of smoke and flame appearing at arbitrary points to signal injury. Make a vulnerability system that injects some life and strategy into the combat, optionally making up awesome sci-fi reasons for them existing. Example: Fighters get real skittish with someone attacking at a certain angle, maybe slightly below and behind, because that's where the reactor vents its heat, and is least shielded. Depending on the configuration, larger ships might have "seams" holding them together that are vulnerable to careful shots, and would prioritize defensive fire on ships trying to hit from that angle. Cover fighters might, by default, swarm near the vulnerable engines on a certain model of battleship, and so forth. Give us something to learn and adapt to, something that shifts with each new class of ship, and presents new and weird tactical combinations in missions. Kairo, you cite Blendo as an inspiration, and he added a simple extra dimension to Flotilla by making the undersides of ships super extra vulnerable, and making their tops impenetrable. This forces the player and AI to continually twist and dance for advantage, a bit of clumsy space ballet. I'm not saying that this exact approach would work in an action-packed romp like this, but let's see how someone else did it: Independence War 2 has a point-defense shield technology. On your starting ship, you have two shield emitters, so these can disperse the energy from two shots simultaneously, but any more than that deals hull damage. Also, they drain continually as they are called into action, and need time to recharge. Lastly, shields cannot extend to the drive section of a ship, otherwise they would interfere with the drive, and so that is where every ship is most vulnerable. One final thing: IL-2 Sturmovik. Bear with me here. Some of the most fun I've had with this game is having something on my plane break, and then suddenly having to deal with a situation where I have to fight, run, or crash land with some crucial part of my plane inactive. Maybe the ailerons are out, and I have to use my one functioning flap and a rudder to steer my poor shot up bird home. Maybe the engine took a few shots with the radiators open, and now it's bleeding fuel and oil, overheating and running out of gas. I have to improvise, make it home. Ships in most s-f shooters rarely feel like machines to me. They are magical self-healing things with shields that cover every angle, or at least entire hemispheres of my ship. With IL-2, there's never that doubt, I'm clearly in a machine where unpredictable things can go wrong, and with a little clearheadedness and some luck, I can succeed. Yep, all this sounds pretty easy, doesn't it? I'm not suggesting you implement each and every vague idea I have here, but look at this game as a real opportunity to do something that only a few games have bothered to simulate (I think). doctorfrog fucked around with this message at 05:07 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 05:04
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Man, I dunno, just do what you're doing, keep it as light and arcadey as you want. Designs should not be crowd-sourced and most of that sounds impossibly complex for a one-man team.
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May 4, 2013 05:17
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Yeah I think it looks great as it is.
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May 4, 2013 05:18
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Too many cooks spoil the pot. I only made my recommendation as an idea for a scenario/mission, not a general gameplay design suggestion. Please don't let it change your design plans. 
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May 4, 2013 05:21
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Yeah just keep doing whatever you are doing Mr. Developer, clearly you know what the gently caress is up. I have not seen a single thing about this game, from the tiniest update to the more extended gameplay videos/.gifs that hasn't looked like space sim manna from heaven. Everyone wants this game to be Space Sims Jesus and take all the sins of the genre onto itself to expunge them, but we have Star Citizen for that. Enemy Starfighter can just be whatever Enemy Starfighter is going to be.
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May 4, 2013 05:22
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Dr.Oblivious posted:It just seem completely unreasonable that we no longer give them the benefit of doubt to produce their own interactive media just because they stop by to say, "Hi." Haha, no it's fine. I always like seeing how people absolutely light up when talking about these kinds of games and don't really read it as, "You must do this!" It's also good to see people's perspectives, as with the Battle of Endor syndrome discussion. Kairo fucked around with this message at 05:51 on May 4, 2013 |
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May 4, 2013 05:45
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Kairo posted:Haha, no it's fine. I always like seeing how people absolutely light up when talking about these kinds of games and don't really read it as, "You must do this!" It's also good to see people's perspectives, as with the Battle of Endor syndrome discussion. How deep these discussions get really shows how bad people crave a new, good space game.
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May 4, 2013 05:51
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That's pretty much it. It's a genre starving for attention, and personally, I couldn't help unloading several impossible requests. To echo what others are saying here, stick to your guns if you got em, I like where you're going!
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May 4, 2013 05:53
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tehsid posted:How deep these discussions get really shows how bad people crave a new, good space game.
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May 4, 2013 05:59
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Everything I've seen so far makes me extremely excited for this game. I'm not a fan of the way the ships look now (although I completely understand that they're just early models in an alpha version of the game), but I think you've already nailed the look of the UI and the overall atmosphere already. Rather then try to describe what I'd hope things look like, here is a crappy overpaint:  But yeah, I trust you know what you're doing. I'm just excited is all, for all the reasons the posters above me have elaborated on.
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May 4, 2013 06:27
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faxmaster posted:Everything I've seen so far makes me extremely excited for this game. I'm not a fan of the way the ships look now (although I completely understand that they're just early models in an alpha version of the game), but I think you've already nailed the look of the UI and the overall atmosphere already. Man, that just screams homeworld.
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May 4, 2013 06:31
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Well, given that Kairo said he's a fan of the Terran Trade Authority books, that is likely similar to how they'll look. The artwork of those books is what inspired Homeworld as well. Important features being bright colors, lots of stripes, plus random numbers, letters and other markings. Some examples: Peter Elson   Chris Foss   You can already sort of see it in the current texturing of the capital ship we've seen. Switch the colors to brighter ones and maybe add in a few extra markings/stripes in addition to the cheverons it has, and you're good. 
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May 4, 2013 06:48
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I'm completely in love with what I've seen of this game so far and I really don't understand why Kairo is looking for an artist when he's doing such a good job himself.
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May 4, 2013 15:31
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Just 'cause he's nailed the look doesn't mean he can't have someone help make it easier for him to focus on the rest of the game.
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May 4, 2013 15:41
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This looks so goddamn awesome. The only possible request I have is add as many very high rate of fire weapons as you can logically squeeze into the game. Nothing is cooler than being able to just unload a stream of projectiles at something. Except a Cap ship unloading multiple dozen streams of projectiles at something else (Point in case: Anyone reading this thread who didn't get a hard-on from the first Galactica vs Basestar scene with the walls of Point defense being thrown up is a loving liar). Beams are cool, but a bunch of rapid fire guns are cooler for some reason. I will say though, aside from creating an awesome atmosphere, stuff like beams and streams of very rapid fire weapons always helped me orient myself to the battle spatially. With the original X-Wing, TIE Fighter, and especially early Wing Commander(s) weapons were relatively slow firing, you'd squirt off a few rounds here and there, but most of your shots and the AI's shots were a second or two apart because you wanted to maximize damage. As you maneuvered around you'd see random shots fly by here and there, but it was really just that, random. In Freespace though, you'd see a beam and know immediately there's a huge pissed off ship that hates someone nearby and you'd know where that ship was, and where the target was, all by seeing just the beam itself lance across your screen for a split second. It always helped me keep track of what was going on around me and enhanced the perception of "our side" of the battle vs "their side". Mainly though space machine-guns just look loving cool.
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May 6, 2013 20:48
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Will there be Itano Circus missiles, like from Macross/Freespace? I don't mind either way, I'm buying this no matter what, I love the art and layout.
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May 6, 2013 21:06
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As long as it's easily moddable so users can create their own battles/campaigns and ship designs, I'm good.
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May 6, 2013 21:25
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I post the gameplay video back when it came out in the Star Citizen thread, hover over the official blog and dev's Twitter, waiting - waiting - for every new tidbit of development news... And no one told me there was an official thread here where the dev has posted?!  Keep doing what you've been doing, Kairo. I Can't wait to see more!
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May 9, 2013 00:17
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The boxart really struck me as something from the late 80s or early 90s. Reminded me of when the likes of Frontier Elite II or Wing Commander I/II were sold in giant cardboard boxes, full of quarter inch thick instruction manuals and blueprints of fighters. Needless to say I'll be keeping an eye on this. edit: The very simple yet clean look is really appealing to me. Reminds me of a space game that was a Battlestar Galactica plotline ripoff called "Epic", and that was from the early 90s. Falken fucked around with this message at 13:52 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 13:48
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So, when can we throw money at this? Will there be a playable alpha/beta?
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May 9, 2013 13:57
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Sardonik posted:So, when can we throw money at this? Will there be a playable alpha/beta?
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May 9, 2013 15:23
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doctorfrog posted:One final thing: IL-2 Sturmovik. Bear with me here. Some of the most fun I've had with this game is having something on my plane break, and then suddenly having to deal with a situation where I have to fight, run, or crash land with some crucial part of my plane inactive. Maybe the ailerons are out, and I have to use my one functioning flap and a rudder to steer my poor shot up bird home. Maybe the engine took a few shots with the radiators open, and now it's bleeding fuel and oil, overheating and running out of gas. I have to improvise, make it home. The original Independence War came pretty close to capturing this feeling for me. There were a lot of systems on your ship that could get shot up and only so much a repair crew could work on at once. There were a few points in the campaign where the only option was to turn off the flight assist, manually pilot the ship a safe distance away and wait while your engineering guys got your ship back into a serviceable enough condition to get back into the fight. Basically I'd like moments where it feels like you're only surviving by the skin of your teeth.
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May 9, 2013 16:29
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TychoCelchuuu posted:We do not know the answer to any of these questions yet. If you want a series of diametrically opposed and increasingly virulent opinions then goon testers are always the place to go!
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May 9, 2013 16:34
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Falken posted:edit: The very simple yet clean look is really appealing to me. Reminds me of a space game that was a Battlestar Galactica plotline ripoff called "Epic", and that was from the early 90s. I remember that one, I played it on my Amiga. It went further than just ripping off the plot of Battlestar Galactica, most of the ship designs were borrowed from various other bits of sci-fi media. The clean, flat-shaded polygon graphics did look nice though.
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May 9, 2013 16:39
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Bargearse posted:The original Independence War came pretty close to capturing this feeling for me. There were a lot of systems on your ship that could get shot up and only so much a repair crew could work on at once. There were a few points in the campaign where the only option was to turn off the flight assist, manually pilot the ship a safe distance away and wait while your engineering guys got your ship back into a serviceable enough condition to get back into the fight. Rogue System was supposed to be like this, they pitched it as 'Falcon 4.0 in space' and you had to mitigate battle damage by adjusting your systems. Missed their kickstarter amount by a fair bit, but the developer's still working on the overall concept. http://www.roguesystemsim.com/RogSys.html If you're hankering for something immediate, Disapora is worth a look. Freespace 2 Engine, Battlestar Galactica source material. http://diaspora.hard-light.net
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May 9, 2013 16:47
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Bargearse posted:I remember that one, I played it on my Amiga. It went further than just ripping off the plot of Battlestar Galactica, most of the ship designs were borrowed from various other bits of sci-fi media. The clean, flat-shaded polygon graphics did look nice though.
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May 9, 2013 17:03
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Hav posted:Rogue System was supposed to be like this, they pitched it as 'Falcon 4.0 in space' and you had to mitigate battle damage by adjusting your systems. Missed their kickstarter amount by a fair bit, but the developer's still working on the overall concept. I wonder if Rogue System will make it. I like the complications and realism that they plan on putting in it, but any time I have to use a mouse to hit toggle switches, I start to lose interest. I guess there's a sweet spot. e: To avoid another dogpile: a jump in and go game like this one should not have a ten minute startup sequence. doctorfrog fucked around with this message at 17:48 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 17:43
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Hav posted:If you're hankering for something immediate, Disapora is worth a look. Freespace 2 Engine, Battlestar Galactica source material. Thanks for reminding me this exists!  I was going to play it some time ago but it flipped off my memory and awareness. Just installed this and finished the tutorials and the first combat mission, which was completely awesome. Now I'm also going to be angry about space ship games if Enemy Starfighter isn't going to have flight decks and combat landings.
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May 9, 2013 18:18
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Fewd posted:Now I'm also going to be angry about space ship games if Enemy Starfighter isn't going to have flight decks and combat landings. You guys are hilarious. Also, I'm seconding/thirding/whatever Diaspora's awesomeness and recommending that everyone play it. They did a great job building a complete standalone package. They even have tutorial missions which is a great indicator as to how they went the extra mile with everything.
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May 9, 2013 19:29
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Kara did a great technical job with the tutorial missions but I think they're a little too ponderously designed. They really need to hard sell the excitement of the space sim to the modern gamer; instead they reinforce the old stereotype that it's an impenetrable genre with a billion controls. Really all you need to know to start having fun in Diaspora is how to steer, how to go fast (full throttle/afterburner), and how to shoot. The rest of the controls, even targeting, can be introduced during gameplay. Don't get angry at Kairo if there are no combat landings/flight decks, those are peripheral features. If FreeSpace 2 didn't need them Enemy Starfighter doesn't need them 
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May 9, 2013 19:34
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That's a fair point. Tutorials are notoriously hard to do well so they get bonus points from me. I think I had ~75 seconds to teach the "modern gamer" flight controls in Long Night of Solace, but it was helped by the fact that the controls and combat were pretty simple by necessity. Diaspora had a lot of Freespace control baggage to work around. I doubt ES will have anywhere near that amount of inputs, mostly because my main work environment is mouse/keyboard and 360 controller/keyboard and I like stuff lean like that. That's not to say you can't rebind whatever you want. I have a brave tester who is helping me iron out issues with his Thrustmaster Warthog.
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May 9, 2013 19:43
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Kairo posted:I doubt ES will have anywhere near that amount of inputs, mostly because my main work environment is mouse/keyboard and 360 controller/keyboard and I like stuff lean like that. That's not to say you can't rebind whatever you want. I have a brave tester who is helping me iron out issues with his Thrustmaster Warthog. Thank goodness, because there's no way in heck I'm ever flying a spaceship without a joystick.
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May 9, 2013 20:15
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General Battuta posted:
Freespace 2 had the one mission where you 'launch' from the Aquitaine's flight deck.
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May 9, 2013 20:18
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Kairo posted:
Oh thank god. My joystick broke a while back and I haven't had the money to replace it, and every space sim I have feels like it was made for one.
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May 9, 2013 20:23
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Kairo posted:That's a fair point. Tutorials are notoriously hard to do well so they get bonus points from me. I think I had ~75 seconds to teach the "modern gamer" flight controls in Long Night of Solace, but it was helped by the fact that the controls and combat were pretty simple by necessity. Diaspora had a lot of Freespace control baggage to work around. Holy poo poo, you worked on that Halo Reach level? I had no idea. Ugly In The Morning posted:Oh thank god. My joystick broke a while back and I haven't had the money to replace it, and every space sim I have feels like it was made for one. For what it's worth I've played FreeSpace 2 using keyboard only since '99, and it's still great! Alchenar posted:Freespace 2 had the one mission where you 'launch' from the Aquitaine's flight deck. Sorta, but it was accomplished through the simple kludge of positioning the player's start point just a meter above the Aquitaine's wing - no docking or special code involved. It wasn't even the flight deck proper (the Hecate's fighterbay is in its belly), but it was cool. Sorry if we're turning this into general space sim chat Kairo, and again, the art is gorgeous. Style trumps technical quality any day.
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May 9, 2013 21:16
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All the game needs is for me to be able to control my throttle with one hand and my direction with the other, and maybe support for two hat switches so I can select targets and weapons independently. That second hat switch on my x52 has maybe been used once.
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May 9, 2013 21:25
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doctorfrog posted:I wonder if Rogue System will make it. I like the complications and realism that they plan on putting in it, but any time I have to use a mouse to hit toggle switches, I start to lose interest. I guess there's a sweet spot. Yeah, the ramp start for the DCS A-10 is the gold standard for over-simming, closely followed by Black Shark, but it's worth pointing out that the buttons that you're pressing actually have an effect. Forgetting the EKRAN or autopilot channels on Black Shark before takeoff is it's own reward. I'm with you, and I think that there's space in the market for differing levels of engagement from different projects. In Black Shark you're actually learning to fly a piece of real world machinery complete with mechanical foibles, whereas your starfighter is a vaguely abstract concept. Kairo, you're doing a lovely job and you have vision. Don't let these jerks distract you.
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May 9, 2013 22:43
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