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Autonomous Monster posted:And to stop just shutting down whenever she thinks she's lost Eren, good God woman. I'm really glad this and One Piece exist. They're like opposite ends of the same spectrum and they're both really good, it's great.
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May 10, 2013 02:56
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The Lord of Hats posted:It's not entirely unreasonable for him to think that he could get Eren to come around. After all, Reiner did himself (or at least, I think that's the case). When Reiner was having that little rant before transforming, he talked about how they were just kids (that is, he, Bert, and Annie were just kids) and didn't know anything, presumably referring to when they broke the wall. He'd never actually interacted with humans within the wall, and he was likely indoctrinated from a young age to hate them, and then sent to destroy them. He carries out the first part of the mission successfully, because he still isn't really thinking of the humans killed as people. During the infiltration, though, he's interacting with them constantly, and he comes to have a lot of respect for the nobility of their struggle against overwhelming odds (and Eren's sheer defiant idealism probably inspired him in this regard; a class where all the top graduates join the Royal Police wouldn't have had the same influence). Now he's caught between two worlds, where he doesn't really want people on either side to suffer. Eren is similar to where Reiner was before he broke the wall, and he's pretty much the only person who has the opportunity to see what Reiner has, from the opposite direction, and Reiner is hoping that Eren respects him enough to let him explain things, just as Eren likely changed his point of view. There's a lot about the conflict that we don't know, because we have no real idea about The human titans' backgrounds (although what we saw from Annie suggests life isn't too radically different), but I think we can guess Reiner's position reasonably accurately. Unless Reiner watched almost everyone he knew and loved killed either before him or in a hopeless death march, both of which were directly resulting from Eren himself, he's got to be absolutely insane to think this would work. Whether the humans within the walls are giant douchebags to the human-titans outside or not, you're not going to get the guy who you directly caused to watch the torturous death of his mother on your side. I find it highly unlikely that none of Mikasa, Eren, or Armin mentioned the trauma of watching Titans eat your family before your eyes in their years of training where every other sentance out of Eren's mouth was "Kill all titans". I mean, someone had to have asked why this kid is so hyped to bathe in the blood of his enemies despite every other person to ever encounter a Titan being content to just poo poo their pants and never mention it again. Basically anyone other than Eren could reasonably be expected to hear what the Armored Titan and his buddy the Colossal Titan have to say. Or at the very least humor them. Anyone who has spent 5 minutes with Eren knows he's not that guy, let alone people who've trained with him for years and seen the Rage Titan at work.
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May 10, 2013 03:48
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Eren certainly won't, but Ymir might, and in all honesty, she seems much more important in the grand scheme of things.
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May 10, 2013 03:55
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Gyges posted:Unless Reiner watched almost everyone he knew and loved killed either before him or in a hopeless death march, both of which were directly resulting from Eren himself, he's got to be absolutely insane to think this would work. Whether the humans within the walls are giant douchebags to the human-titans outside or not, you're not going to get the guy who you directly caused to watch the torturous death of his mother on your side. I find it highly unlikely that none of Mikasa, Eren, or Armin mentioned the trauma of watching Titans eat your family before your eyes in their years of training where every other sentance out of Eren's mouth was "Kill all titans". I mean, someone had to have asked why this kid is so hyped to bathe in the blood of his enemies despite every other person to ever encounter a Titan being content to just poo poo their pants and never mention it again. Reiner and Bertholdt watched their childhood friend get eaten by Ymir-Titan, and they (Reiner and Bertholdt) are still apparently willing to enter into amicable discussions with Ymir.
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May 10, 2013 04:04
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I think Reiner and Bertholdt were just expecting that their friendship was strong enough to give them a chance to make... whatever their appeal is going to be. It might even have worked if Mikasa hadn't come on all stabby. Still sounds weak, but if their appeal is really spectacular it could be pretty understandable as an approach.
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May 10, 2013 04:48
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So, while rereading I came across these three pages of Annie talking to Connie and Armin during training. And knowing her background, I'm curious if maybe she's talking about her 'mission' from whatever leader ordered her to infiltrate. "If someone tells you to go die, will you go die?" may be some kind of clue as to what she was ordered to do. Then, she looks really troubled when she says "Then you just have to decide on your own." She says she doesn't have a reason for wanting to join the police force, other than "to save [her] hide." I feel like these lines may be foreshadowing what the human-titans' plan is, or at least their orders, but I'm not exactly sure what. Maybe I'm just being paranoid with "everything these three people say actually has double meanings" but still, the emphasis on the last panel sticks out a bit for me. Maybe she was ordered to join the scouting legion to help keep an eye on Eren, but knew it could likely result in her death - so she opted to go to the safety of the inner walls?
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May 10, 2013 05:10
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Gyges posted:Unless Reiner watched almost everyone he knew and loved killed either before him or in a hopeless death march, both of which were directly resulting from Eren himself, he's got to be absolutely insane to think this would work. Whether the humans within the walls are giant douchebags to the human-titans outside or not, you're not going to get the guy who you directly caused to watch the torturous death of his mother on your side. I find it highly unlikely that none of Mikasa, Eren, or Armin mentioned the trauma of watching Titans eat your family before your eyes in their years of training where every other sentance out of Eren's mouth was "Kill all titans". I mean, someone had to have asked why this kid is so hyped to bathe in the blood of his enemies despite every other person to ever encounter a Titan being content to just poo poo their pants and never mention it again. They make a really big point of him not saying anything during a flashback (I think) fairly early on during their training, when they explain why they're even soldiers. If he didn't spill then, he didn't spill at all is my thought. CodfishCartographer posted:Maybe I'm just being paranoid with "everything these three people say actually has double meanings" but still, the emphasis on the last panel sticks out a bit for me. Maybe she was ordered to join the scouting legion to help keep an eye on Eren, but knew it could likely result in her death - so she opted to go to the safety of the inner walls? Or she was ordered to the inner walls as a spy/sleeper agent to some other purpose. I'm not totally sure any of them knew about Eren in advance, I don't think it was until after he went Titan that first time that he became an actual target of interest.
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May 10, 2013 06:41
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:Or she was ordered to the inner walls as a spy/sleeper agent to some other purpose. I'm not totally sure any of them knew about Eren in advance, I don't think it was until after he went Titan that first time that he became an actual target of interest. What's more I'm sure she wouldn't have been so happy to share her hand-to-hand techniques with him if she had any idea at the time. I'm looking forward to the probable flashbacks with Reiner and Bertholdt, wouldn't they have been like 12 years old as well when they attacked wall maria? And I get that people's papers were a mess after the attack, but I just find it too funny that they ended up with at least 5 titans in the same batch of trainees, it makes you wonder how many more there are in the military, or even just the 104th. AndroidHub fucked around with this message at 08:53 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 08:41
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AndroidHub posted:I'm looking forward to the probable flashbacks with Reiner and Bertholdt, wouldn't they have been like 12 years old as well when they attacked wall maria? And I get that people's papers were a mess after the attack, but I just find it too funny that they ended up with at least 5 titans in the same batch of trainees, it makes you wonder how many more there are in the military, or even just the 104th. For that matter, why would they send all of their spies into the same class? Wouldn't it have made more sense to spread them out to different cities and groups, to make detection more difficult? I can sort of understand why Reiner and Bertholdt would be together, since they're needed together in order to dismantle the wall defenses, but why would Annie need to be near them as well? The fact that there are only three of them implies that creating these human-titans is either extremely difficult to do, or extraordinarily taxing on resources - otherwise they could have just sent a pair of colossal + armored to each gate and taken them all down at once. So if they're so limited, wouldn't it be more strategically sound to split them up, so they're not ALL in the same class? Annie obviously isn't part of the strategy utilized to take the walls, so why keep her with Reiner and Betholdt? And who the gently caress knows about Ymir.
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May 10, 2013 09:30
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Captain Invictus posted:Hey man, she's seen some serious poo poo. It's not really surprising that she breaks down whenever she thinks she's lost the one constant in her life, it's the only thing she's got keeping her going. It just shows her significant flaws as a character, she may be a military force, but she's still extremely frail and it only takes a well-placed blow to topple her emotionally. Until Hannes made his rousing speech she was just content to literally curl up in a ball and cry. Sure! It's a perfectly reasonable response for her to have, given her past. It's also the least useful/most dangerous response she could possibly have. If she carries on like this, then somewhere down the line it's going to get her munched.
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May 10, 2013 10:23
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Autonomous Monster posted:Sure! It's a perfectly reasonable response for her to have, given her past. Remember how she reacted when Armin was freaking out because he saw Eren get eaten? 'We don't have time for this right now.' She was really hurt and sad, and she ended up being reckless and careless as a result, but she did what she had to do. The only reason she curled up and cried this time is that, without horses there was nothing for her to do. I guess. Honestly it seems a bit odd that she'd break down when he got abducted like he did, given how she reacted to his actual death.
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May 10, 2013 10:43
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Eiba posted:I don't think she'd have quite the same reaction if there was anything she could do or needed to do at the moment. Just finished reading the manga. My guess would be that when he 'died' she wasn't there, but this time he was kidnapped before her eyes after she failed to kill the two Titans with her pre-emptive strike, berated herself for that, then failed to so much as annoy Reiner in his armoured form. Perhaps she feels it's her fault things turned out this way. On that note, what the heck can anyone do about Reiner? He seems invincible for as long as he can maintain his titan form, and he's not exactly weak if he's fighting as a human. I suppose their objective right now is to retrieve Eren, not defeat the Titans, but god drat. With Annie they at least had some chances to hurt her. Mikasa is a lot of fun to watch. I maintain my initial impression that it'd be better for both of them if she put some distance between herself and Eren, but god drat it we do not have time to unravel that knot of co-dependence, we're too busy being killed by Titans. It was nice to see her being cheered up by Armin and Hannes.
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May 10, 2013 11:01
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Lestaki posted:
Reiner-Titan is not armored at the back of his knees, and he's vulnerable to holds and locks. That was how they brought him to the ground last chapter - one of the soldiers slashed the back of Reiner-Titan's knees and Eren held him down in a neck-lock when he fell down.
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May 10, 2013 11:08
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Autonomous Monster posted:Sure! It's a perfectly reasonable response for her to have, given her past. It wouldn't be much of a flaw if that wasn't the case. It's nice to have actual flaws in the characters and not just the usual lip serviced Hero is too hot headed! (but not really) and Heroine is too timid! (but not really) The character flaws in Attack on Titan are all fatal flaws in that they can get you dead. SirDan3k fucked around with this message at 11:11 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 11:08
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JosephWongKS posted:Reiner-Titan is not armored at the back of his knees, and he's vulnerable to holds and locks. That was how they brought him to the ground last chapter - one of the soldiers slashed the back of Reiner-Titan's knees and Eren held him down in a neck-lock when he fell down.
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May 10, 2013 11:14
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SirDan3k posted:It wouldn't be much of a flaw if that wasn't the case. It's nice to have actual flaws in the characters and not just the usual lip serviced Hero is too hot headed! (but not really) and Heroine is too timid! (but not really) Eren is hot-headed, Mikasa is emotionally brittle, Armin is physically weak, Christa has a martyr complex, Conny is not too bright, Jean is petty, and Hanji is over-enthusiastic about Titan research and reckless about the risks of getting within range of their snapping jaws. I can see how these flaws can lead to them getting killed. I don't see how Rivaille's obsession with cleanliness is potentially fatal, though. And Sasha has no flaws. JosephWongKS fucked around with this message at 11:26 on May 10, 2013 |
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May 10, 2013 11:17
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CodfishCartographer posted:For that matter, why would they send all of their spies into the same class? Wouldn't it have made more sense to spread them out to different cities and groups, to make detection more difficult? I can sort of understand why Reiner and Bertholdt would be together, since they're needed together in order to dismantle the wall defenses, but why would Annie need to be near them as well? The fact that there are only three of them implies that creating these human-titans is either extremely difficult to do, or extraordinarily taxing on resources - otherwise they could have just sent a pair of colossal + armored to each gate and taken them all down at once. So if they're so limited, wouldn't it be more strategically sound to split them up, so they're not ALL in the same class? Annie obviously isn't part of the strategy utilized to take the walls, so why keep her with Reiner and Betholdt? Keep in mind that the entirety of the wall is composed of colossal titans (we are to assume this is the case), which from the looks of it is miles and miles long or a couple thousand colossal titans maybe more. So at one point either everyone gave up their lives to become titans or the remaining humans captured them without telling anyone. Even after what Reiner said about "There no need to destroy humanity anymore" I don't think there ever was a goal to eliminate every last human. As for more undercover titans, there are probably more than we know or the members of the squad don't realize they themselves are mostly human-titans or at least have the capacity to become one.
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May 10, 2013 15:56
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JosephWongKS posted:Reiner-Titan is not armored at the back of his knees, and he's vulnerable to holds and locks. That was how they brought him to the ground last chapter - one of the soldiers slashed the back of Reiner-Titan's knees and Eren held him down in a neck-lock when he fell down. Not trying to nitpick too badly but he was armored fully at 1st then when Eren figured out how to fight him he released?/ dissolved? the armor on the back of his knees to become much faster. That's when Mikasa came in and cut him.
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May 10, 2013 16:00
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JosephWongKS posted:I don't see how Rivaille's obsession with cleanliness is potentially fatal, though. And Sasha has no flaws. Countdown to the pigpen titan. Also Sasha is extremely vulnerable to food shortages.
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May 10, 2013 17:12
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Sasha will fall to the Mr. Potato Titan.
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May 10, 2013 17:17
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Scintilla posted:Sasha will fall to the Mr. Potato Titan. Mr Potaitan?
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May 10, 2013 17:18
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CodfishCartographer posted:For that matter, why would they send all of their spies into the same class? Wouldn't it have made more sense to spread them out to different cities and groups, to make detection more difficult? I can sort of understand why Reiner and Bertholdt would be together, since they're needed together in order to dismantle the wall defenses, but why would Annie need to be near them as well? The fact that there are only three of them implies that creating these human-titans is either extremely difficult to do, or extraordinarily taxing on resources - otherwise they could have just sent a pair of colossal + armored to each gate and taken them all down at once. So if they're so limited, wouldn't it be more strategically sound to split them up, so they're not ALL in the same class? Annie obviously isn't part of the strategy utilized to take the walls, so why keep her with Reiner and Betholdt? I'm not really sure on why Reiner, Bert, and Annie all ended up in the same class together. It does seem to be front loading their spies a little, but maybe it was just the easiest way. They're all about the same age, and this let them cover each other's backs and then go separate ways after graduation. Ymir, though, she was a coincidence. I don't think any of them, even the other Titans, knew she was one of them. I get the feeling she got through the walls somehow and just blended in for her own reasons. She did say she'd gotten a second chance at life, which was likely when she got through the wall. I'm still more curious what ties she has to the first recorded talking Titan that mentioned something about "Ymir's People". It seems unlikely that she's not related to that.
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May 10, 2013 17:43
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:I'm not really sure on why Reiner, Bert, and Annie all ended up in the same class together. It does seem to be front loading their spies a little, but maybe it was just the easiest way. They're all about the same age, and this let them cover each other's backs and then go separate ways after graduation. That and the scout that Titan was talking to looked like Ymir.
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May 10, 2013 18:01
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Breaky posted:That and the scout that Titan was talking to looked like Ymir. A little bit. Maybe Ymir is much, much older than she looks? Come to think of it, we see Titan Ymir eating people in that little flashback from Bert and Reiner but we've never seen any other Human-Titan eat people. That they're content to just kill is even something of an identifying trait for them.
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May 10, 2013 18:31
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I would assume that if you identify as human, cannibalism isn't really that high on your list of priorities.
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May 10, 2013 18:32
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That's my point. Did Ymir transition from being a normal Titan into a Human-Titan, then? That would certainly fit with her "second chance" bit, and the fact that the Titans are basically giant homunculi. Homunculus?
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May 10, 2013 18:40
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:That's my point. Did Ymir transition from being a normal Titan into a Human-Titan, then? That would certainly fit with her "second chance" bit, and the fact that the Titans are basically giant homunculi. Homunculus? Connie's mom went from non-titan to full blown titan, at least she never showed (much) human intelligence, same start as Ymir. Maybe some get lucky and learn to control it.
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May 10, 2013 19:49
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Toadsniff posted:Keep in mind that the entirety of the wall is composed of colossal titans (we are to assume this is the case), which from the looks of it is miles and miles long or a couple thousand colossal titans maybe more. So at one point either everyone gave up their lives to become titans or the remaining humans captured them without telling anyone. Even after what Reiner said about "There no need to destroy humanity anymore" I don't think there ever was a goal to eliminate every last human. As for more undercover titans, there are probably more than we know or the members of the squad don't realize they themselves are mostly human-titans or at least have the capacity to become one. It isn't clear how tightly they are packed in, but the area inside the walls is about the size of France. Only, there isn't just the one outside wall. There are the protrusion cities which are surrounded by walls and the two inner districts. It doesn't really matter how tightly the colossal titans are packed in. At a bare minimum, there are as many colossal titans as there are humans inside the wall. We are talking millions of titans here, possibly titans with human intelligence for all anyone knows. Annie alone was enough to kick the poo poo out of pretty much the entire scouting legion. As for the number of human titan infiltrators, there are too many coincidences. Ymir had jack to do with any of the infiltrators, because she joined with Christa. The one thing every person in that class had in common was age. Either all of the ages lining up was a coincidence, or they joined because of Eren(there are lots of problems with this one), or else there is some significance to how old they are. Perhaps maintaining consciousness as a titan pilot is only possible for the young. If there is a time limit, then that explains why children were sent to knock down the wall.
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May 10, 2013 19:58
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Toadsniff posted:Connie's mom went from non-titan to full blown titan, at least she never showed (much) human intelligence, same start as Ymir. Maybe some get lucky and learn to control it. That's a good point, but then doesn't that imply that all Titans are human? Or, at least, that the state of being human or Titan is fluid? Any human could become a titan, and any titan could become a human, through I assume dark magic.
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May 10, 2013 20:05
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:That's a good point, but then doesn't that imply that all Titans are human? Or, at least, that the state of being human or Titan is fluid? Any human could become a titan, and any titan could become a human, through I assume dark magic. Maybe it's irreversible normally and Eren's dad is one of the ones that knows of a way to control / reverse it.
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May 10, 2013 20:07
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I have a feeling the titan gang is taking Eren to wherever his dad is. I still hold the opinion that his dad is behind everything, too.
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May 10, 2013 20:14
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Breaky posted:Maybe it's irreversible normally and Eren's dad is one of the ones that knows of a way to control / reverse it. Maybe, we'll have to see if any of this gang say anything. That would then make me wonder if the reason he wasn't treating Mikasa was because she's a secret-Titan too. Might explain her monster strength.
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May 10, 2013 20:23
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CodfishCartographer posted:For that matter, why would they send all of their spies into the same class? Wouldn't it have made more sense to spread them out to different cities and groups, to make detection more difficult? I can sort of understand why Reiner and Bertholdt would be together, since they're needed together in order to dismantle the wall defenses, but why would Annie need to be near them as well? I don't think Reiner and Bertoldt were needed together; whichever one destroyed the stronger wall could have destroyed both (although the mental image of the Colossal Titan climbing over the outer wall is pretty funny). I think it's so each can keep an eye on the other. They're kids ho have just done a terrible act, isolated amongst enemies who are being friendly, as they don't know their true identity. It's a stressful situation, so their bosses pair them up so neither is likely to fess up and defect. Annie doesn't have a buddy so they put her in with them. Ymir is the real oddity.
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May 10, 2013 20:30
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:Maybe, we'll have to see if any of this gang say anything. That would then make me wonder if the reason he wasn't treating Mikasa was because she's a secret-Titan too. Might explain her monster strength. Nothing has indicated that being a Titan gives your human form increased strength. Mikasa is abnormally strong and competent in a class that contained at least 5 Titans, 4 of which knew what they were and one who had no idea.
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May 10, 2013 20:36
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Serious Frolicking posted:It isn't clear how tightly they are packed in, but the area inside the walls is about the size of France. Only, there isn't just the one outside wall. There are the protrusion cities which are surrounded by walls and the two inner districts. It doesn't really matter how tightly the colossal titans are packed in. At a bare minimum, there are as many colossal titans as there are humans inside the wall. We are talking millions of titans here, possibly titans with human intelligence for all anyone knows. Annie alone was enough to kick the poo poo out of pretty much the entire scouting legion. The age of the spies could just be necessary for the original plan to work. Breach the walls to infiltrate by blending in with the refugees, be children so you're not sent back out to die like most of the refugees they couldn't feed, join the military as soon as eligible so you can try to join the military police to get access to the inner wall. Eren and Ymir being titans and part of the same class is probably just a coincidence, though. Eren was a genuine refugee and Ymir probably took the same chance to get inside the walls as the spies and has her own reasons to join the military. If they were all roughly the same age when they got inside the walls as refugees and all joined the military as soon as they possibly could it would make sense that they'd end up in the same class.
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May 10, 2013 20:43
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:Maybe, we'll have to see if any of this gang say anything. That would then make me wonder if the reason he wasn't treating Mikasa was because she's a secret-Titan too. Might explain her monster strength. Eren doesn't have monster strength. If he did, maybe he wouldn't have lost fights so much. Mikasa seems to have some weird super strength, as shown by her breaking the knife and floor. But whatever is up with her is different from Eren's deal.
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May 10, 2013 21:22
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I dunno, this is a fairly impressive feat for someone of Eren's size and build, to be able to huck someone who weighs nearly as much such a distance, one-handed, while keeping a titan's mouth pried open. Maybe, like the titan transformation, he just needs the right focus.
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May 10, 2013 22:20
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Gyges posted:Nothing has indicated that being a Titan gives your human form increased strength. Mikasa is abnormally strong and competent in a class that contained at least 5 Titans, 4 of which knew what they were and one who had no idea. At least four titans at the top of the class. Mikasa is abnormally competent. Think maybe there will be an ac dealing with suspicion of her as being a Titan from the government/military, even though the audience may know better?
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May 10, 2013 22:44
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minimalist posted:I dunno, this is a fairly impressive feat for someone of Eren's size and build, to be able to huck someone who weighs nearly as much such a distance, one-handed, while keeping a titan's mouth pried open. Maybe, like the titan transformation, he just needs the right focus. Armin was light and Eren was on the verge of death. That seems like a textbook case of adrenaline allowing extreme feats of strength.
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May 10, 2013 22:50
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minimalist posted:I dunno, this is a fairly impressive feat for someone of Eren's size and build, to be able to huck someone who weighs nearly as much such a distance, one-handed, while keeping a titan's mouth pried open. Maybe, like the titan transformation, he just needs the right focus.
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May 10, 2013 23:00
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