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escape artist posted:I just wonder-- do you think in 20 years we'll look back on Louis CK and Daniel Tosh and whomever else, and think the same thing we do about Eddie Murphy now? And not to demean Jezebel or Salon for this specifically, but truthfully the internet has a way of magnifying a thought or idea of a movement to appear as if it's widely-reaching offline, when in reality most of this stuff is never really brought up or addressed face to face when not on a computer. That's why a good chunk of articles dealing with the subject usually involve the writer hearing something, being shocked that they heard it, and then cutting to them writing about it on the internet. While a writer can certainly spread their ideas to more people using articles and social media, it has hardly ever translated into any tangible, real-life results as far as these subjects go.
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Jun 3, 2013 06:52
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escape artist posted:Serious chat, incoming. There are plenty of people who already dislike CK and Tosh's jokes in that field. Like already said I guess I fall on the Chris Rock scale, there are some funny jokes about really taboo things, but they have to actually be jokes. Like you can't just be like CK and say 'man I like saying friend of the family, it's just fun to say, like AIDS' there's no joke there he's just saying friend of the family and knowing that his audience will go 'oh man that's a naughty word'. Same with the Carlin 'Porky Pig' rape joke already mentioned, but on the other side of the scale. That's a joke because he's taking the concept of a rape joke to the most absurd, completely out of reality, extreme. I think, at the end of the day, comics really need to stop hiding behind 'I'm just a comic'. Like, we're not talking about ancient jesters who were the only people in the court allowed to mock the king, you don't really get to hide behind 'hey it's just a joke' when someone says 'that was a lovely thing to say'. It doesn't make the thing you said not lovely to them, all it does is attempt to summon the Internet Free Speech Brigade. It needs to be accepted if you're going to do taboo stuff people aren't going to like it, and you just kinda have to eat that. You have the free speech to say whatever oval office and rape jokes you like, but people also have the free speech to say you're an rear end in a top hat, the two aren't in competition.
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Jun 3, 2013 07:39
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Like already said I guess I fall on the Chris Rock scale, there are some funny jokes about really taboo things, but they have to actually be jokes. Like you can't just be like CK and say 'man I like saying friend of the family, it's just fun to say, like AIDS' there's no joke there he's just saying friend of the family and knowing that his audience will go 'oh man that's a naughty word'. Anyway, keep the responses coming, this is a thoughtful discussion, and I'm enjoying it.
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Jun 3, 2013 07:46
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I had a joke in my set that used the word rape when I was younger, and I still feel pretty lovely about it. I think comics should be allowed to tell jokes about whatever they want, but if more of them knew just how many people in the audience had been victims of sexual assault, they'd think twice before using it as a shock punchline. 1 in 5 women have been raped or sexually assaulted, and I really can't imagine what I'd think if I were sitting in an audience and someone brought it up as part of a joke. I think the discussion in the community's healthy because now, if you really want to keep your rape jokes, you're forced to think twice about it.
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Jun 3, 2013 09:23
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Any comedian that gives up a funny joke in order to not offend or to satisfy a few people with megaphones is never going to be a 'great' comedian. If history is any indicator, this seems to be an absolute. This trend of overblowing everything and histrionics at every perceived slight will eventually go away. It's a very new phenomenon amongst young people. In the 80s it was solely the realm of 78 year old catholic widows and politicians because it took more than a modicum of effort to bask in the glory of reflected persecution without the internet.
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Jun 3, 2013 11:12
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escape artist posted:I never found Louis CK's stuff to be gratuitous. God, you're awful. Why would you bring up this boring, tired loving subject again? You can look a few pages back and find all the same answers there.
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Jun 3, 2013 14:59
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I, personally, am lucky enough to have a choice to not watch things I do not like. It must be very hard being a feminist blogger and being forced to watch all that poo poo.
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Jun 3, 2013 15:15
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jyrka posted:I, personally, am lucky enough to have a choice to not watch things I do not like. It must be very hard being a feminist blogger and being forced to watch all that poo poo. Their points are usually not that they have to hear it but that telling rape jokes can perpetuate the already lovely rape culture.
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Jun 3, 2013 15:17
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jyrka posted:I, personally, am lucky enough to have a choice to not watch things I do not like. It must be very hard being a feminist blogger and being forced to watch all that poo poo. Are you mistaking the phrase "victim of sexual assault" with "feminist blogger"? That seems like a pretty lovely way to belittle the actual topic of conversation. thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 15:17
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thexerox123 posted:Are you mistaking the phrase "victim of sexual assault" with "feminist blogger"? No, not really. The average "victim of x" doesn't have the means to publicly pressure artists into changing their work simply because the topic of said art touches on however they were victimised. nerve posted:Their points are usually not that they have to hear it but that telling rape jokes can perpetuate the already lovely rape culture. Of course if stand-up comedy that mentions rape causes rape, then of course rape jokes are bad. I agree.
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Jun 3, 2013 15:46
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nerve posted:Their points are usually not that they have to hear it but that telling rape jokes can perpetuate the already lovely rape culture. If there was any proof that this was true in any way or that the way it's dealt with was helpful in any way then we wouldn't be having this boring rear end conversation again. It's all conjecture based on feelings. As long as people on the internet's idea that 'shouting down' any idea that they disagree with is productive, there will never be an honest discussion and nothing will ever happen. Edit - this guy right below is exactly what I'm saying. I don't mean I agree with him, he's just exactly the caricature I was talking about. Ariza fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 15:47
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jyrka posted:Of course if stand-up comedy that mentions rape causes rape, then of course rape jokes are bad. I agree. They perpetuate rape culture. A work that has a callous approach to a subject, left unchallenged, is implicitly accepted into the status quo. As a concrete example, prison rape is borderline institutionalized in the US, and is often used as a punchline ("federal pound-me-in-the-rear end prison", etc). It's of course a different situation because people have so little concern for prisoners to begin with, but an unsympathetic environment like that is the worst case scenario that those mean ol' feminist bloggers are trying to prevent.
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Jun 3, 2013 19:21
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Ariza posted:If there was any proof that this was true in any way or that the way it's dealt with was helpful in any way then we wouldn't be having this boring rear end conversation again. It's all conjecture based on feelings. As long as people on the internet's idea that 'shouting down' any idea that they disagree with is productive, there will never be an honest discussion and nothing will ever happen. Ehh. You don't want to shout down any avenue of discussion, because talking about an issue is always healthier than ignoring it. On the other hand, I remember a thread discussing the Avengers movie devolving into a horrible three page discussion about whether or not ScoJo having tits and the existence of high heels is mysoginistic or not, and I was all "man, you guys ruin everything can't we just talk about the Hulk punching stuff". Its annoying high wire act, but I'd much prefer people talk about stuff and scroll past the obvious chaff than people not talk at all. It's kinda the adverse of the one guy not catering to the angry megaphone crowd. It's pretty easy to recognize the stuff you're not interested in within three words and ignore it. Also, I think the discussion was better than average until the internet started shouting it down.
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Jun 3, 2013 19:56
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I really hate it when people call this topic boring or tired or whatever. It comes across as very "Discussion about privilege is boring," says white male on the internet-y.
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Jun 3, 2013 21:40
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Ugh. Has anyone been following Amy Schumer's show? I watched the first three episodes and started to find it tedious, despite loving her standup. Does it get any better? I do like Comedy Central giving all the funny comics out there shows. I'd say it ranks thusly (new shows): The Kroll Show>Nathan for You>Legit>Inside Amy Schumer>Jeselnik's thing>The Ben Show(I really tried, I like him)>Jeff Ross' dumb show.
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Jun 3, 2013 23:37
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escape artist posted:Serious chat, incoming. The general idea being I might be the hardened, broken jagoff who can laugh at anything and everything, it doesn't mean the people in the audience are the same way.
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Jun 4, 2013 00:13
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Ariza posted:This trend of overblowing everything and histrionics at every perceived slight will eventually go away. It's a very new phenomenon amongst young people. In the 80s it was solely the realm of 78 year old catholic widows and politicians because it took more than a modicum of effort to bask in the glory of reflected persecution without the internet.
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Jun 4, 2013 00:42
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This comment is not directed at anyone in particular: In the aftermath of the West/Norton thing the other day, West has been getting dozens/hundreds of "you're too fat to rape" / "maybe a good raping would shut you up" comments on her blog, Twitter, etc. If that doesn't indicate a societal problem to you, I think you are nuts
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Jun 4, 2013 02:01
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Past Tense Ragu posted:God, you're awful. Why would you bring up this boring, tired loving subject again? You can look a few pages back and find all the same answers there. Asterios posted:I had a joke in my set that used the word rape when I was younger, and I still feel pretty lovely about it. I think comics should be allowed to tell jokes about whatever they want, but if more of them knew just how many people in the audience had been victims of sexual assault, they'd think twice before using it as a shock punchline. What if said male comic has been a victim of sexual assault themselves? I can name several off hand. Ariza posted:Ugh. I'm really loving bummed out by it, frankly. It seemed so promising, and some of the sketches were great, and I actually know one of the writers on the show... every writer on there being brilliant in their own way. But god it's just not enjoyable to watch. I took it off my DVR after last week. escape artist fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 02:09
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You can say oval office as much as you want as long as you're Jim Jeffries.
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Jun 4, 2013 02:48
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escape artist posted:I'm really loving bummed out by it, frankly. It seemed so promising, and some of the sketches were great, and I actually know one of the writers on the show... every writer on there being brilliant in their own way. But god it's just not enjoyable to watch. I took it off my DVR after last week. I just looked it up and it seems her show was renewed too and it premiered number one with males 18-34 and kept good numbers. So it's only The Ben Show in the new crop of Comedy Central shows that didn't get renewed. I listened to some interviews/podcasts with him and I wouldn't be surprised if he killed himself in the next year or so. I'll try it again next season and hope they find their footing.
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Jun 4, 2013 03:04
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Ariza posted:I just looked it up and it seems her show was renewed too and it premiered number one with males 18-34 and kept good numbers. So it's only The Ben Show in the new crop of Comedy Central shows that didn't get renewed. I listened to some interviews/podcasts with him and I wouldn't be surprised if he killed himself in the next year or so. I'll try it again next season and hope they find their footing. Yeah I know it's doing really well, and I fall in that demographic but... It's just not doing it for me. Feels like the show doesn't know what it wants to be. One part stand-up, one part sketches, one part interviews on the street, and then those awful one on one interviews at the end of each episode. It's a shame because the 6 writers for that show is like a comedy all-star lineup. I had such high hopes.
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Jun 4, 2013 03:49
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My girlfriend was interested in it so we watched about three episodes. We watched one that had a long sketch where the punchline was just fart noises over and over again. I think that was the last one we watched.
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Jun 4, 2013 04:15
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Regardless of how you feel about the Norton/West thing, I really liked this particular moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtUb_E1qUHA&t=522s
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Jun 4, 2013 05:14
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:You can say oval office as much as you want as long as you're Jim Jeffries. Who pointed out that people tend to not get offended until the subject of the joke is them, a group they perceive themselves to be a part of, or somebody they know personally.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:03
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What did Lenny Bruce say? Something like "the suppression of the word is what makes it so vicious." The Berzerker posted:My girlfriend was interested in it so we watched about three episodes. We watched one that had a long sketch where the punchline was just fart noises over and over again. I think that was the last one we watched. Did you see the perm sketch? It was... I don't know how that made it to air.
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Jun 4, 2013 06:18
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I think as a minority, but a straight male I still feel like I get 'outrage fatigued' at times because people are ready to blow poo poo up to bigger proportions. And since I follow a lot of comedy people on internet sites like facebook and twitter it can feel like an echo chamber. This isn't just related to rape jokes but it crosses in to joke stealing, what is good, bad, and so on. So it becomes this non-stop chorus of people making a flippant remark on twitter and then people saying "YOU KNOW THAT'S loving SEXIST" and me seeing retweets and articles on multiple sites and then another thing comes up where people are angry at an Onion article and so on. Which is not to say these complaints aren't valid. Or that some people are or are not out of line. Its just a matter of getting sick of it and thinking, "Can't we just loving laugh about something please?" Now I think the important thing to realize is that language is fluid but it is not an open market. As much as you want to argue about everyone can say what they want its just not true. And you have to not only be good at deconstruction but also be extremely talented. I say this in regards to prominent comedians saying "Its just language/words." Words have power. It's why you don't see a lot of white comedians dealing with a lot of race related jokes. I honestly think people are pretty dumb when they get bent out of shape saying "WHY CAN CHRIS ROCK TALK ABOUT THE BLACK EXPERIENCE and I RANDOM DUDE WHO IS WHITE CANNOT?" I mean its obvious. Words have power and are loaded so if you're going to delve in to complicated racial, sexual, and political jokes you have to be good or know how to massage them in to a crowd. By and large I do agree with some who think that shocking humor/blue humor for going blue sake is often lazy. Now funny insightful stuff can be raunchy as hell but these are just my tastes. On a side tangent, its often brought up about "right wing comedians" not being funny or why can't their be a conservative answer to The Daily Show. And this does tie back in to language....and the thing is a lot of comedy today that is popular is self deprecating and internally filled with conflict. Comedy is often derived from being disenfranchised or playing ones self up as a fool and a goof. And speaking from purely an American perspective the status quo and general perception of the right wing in America is of stodgy old white guys. And this does remind me of how some major comedians have talked about the difficulty of crafting new stand up sets after they've reached a high level of success. If you're Dave Chappelle and you walk in to a comedy club people are going to be primed to laugh because you're dave chappelle. Your jokes might not be good. And also when you hit a peak in your career its not as fun to talk about all the money and success you've had. It's more fun to hear about struggles and stupid life issues. Which is one reason why listening to Adam Carolla's podcast can be hilarious because he is forgetting about where he has come from. High points include when he was complaining about his maid cleaning up while he was home trying to have coffee...THE HORROR. This was a long rambling incoherent mess. I'm sorry.
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Jun 4, 2013 08:58
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Dip Facial posted:Regardless of how you feel about the Norton/West thing, I really liked this particular moment: It's not really fair to put a longtime radio personality and stand up comedian who talks all day for a living up against a person who doesn't. That was like watching one of those evolution debates on YouTube.
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Jun 4, 2013 12:05
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soggybagel posted:This was a long rambling incoherent mess. I'm sorry. I didn't want a graduate dissertation on the issue; I wanted to hear your opinion. So I thank you for sharing them. Sincerely. Comedy's Central's "Half-Hour Stand-Up" series -- this second season of it -- has been tremendous. Dan Soder, Nikki Glaser, Dan St. Germain and Jonah Ray were all spectacular. I still have to see Joey Roses and Gabe Liedman and some other ones but I'm just blown away by how many "new" great comics there are. Ones that won't even show up on your Vulture.com Top 50 Comedians You'll Soon Know lists... there are too many to list. Being a stand-up fanatic is like being a kid in a candy shop right now. By the way, screw those lists. This is the only one worth reading: http://tynandelong.tumblr.com/post/50021915590/chucklebucket-coms-10-comedians-you-should-and escape artist fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 12:29
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Ariza posted:Ugh. The couple episodes of Ben Show I watched seemed like they were halfway into the creative process and then were all of a sudden made to film what they had. Also, isn't Legit an FX show?
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Jun 4, 2013 21:12
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To clarify my late night incoherent rambling. 1. Right wing/conservative comedy often fails because what the right wing often represents (I'm talking in the widest swaths possible) the status quo. The status quo is old white men who have traditionally been in a position of power. The same reason why a sketch or improv scene where a powerful person constantly denies or belittles a person who is of lower status rarely is funny is the same reason why a stand up comedian who represents the more conservative ideals often fails. Now there are tons of hacky awful "liberal" comedians too. Funny is funny, but in particular social issues are often examined in stand up and sketch and the social issues that the right wing in America represents right now often feel regressive or restrictive. SO to broadly stereotype, if you're a liberal slanted comedian and you want to attack social issues you come from the minority (in this case I mean the non status quo) or persecuted view. The opposing view even if you are a more conservative person is to not attack the position but point out the absurdity of the issue in it of it self. The long and short is that status matters and people just don't like to see people mercilessly beat up on a person of low status unless its handled in a deft manner. 2. The language fluidity issue is something I kind of dropped. When Louis CK says that its just words he is right and wrong. Hurtful/hateful language can hurt. And I think the most salient example is when a joke takes on a life of its own. Chris Rock's "friend of the family or nigga" one is a prime example. Dave Chappelle has also broached this point when he pointed out that he was no longer sure if the people were in on the joke...in that were they laughing at the joke or were they just laughing at him? I love comedy. I love standup, improv, and sketch. But I sometimes have an issue with comedians saying that this is a freedom of speech issue. Because often it puts the argument in to a "You're either for freedom of speech or you are against it." Which isn't usually true. It's not about quashing a discourse they disagree with. It's that some issues should be handled with more nuance. Race is often a minefield and as I said before anyone who says "comedians should be able to say anything" are absolutely right. But if you fail or do something stupid you should expect fallout and also blowback even if you are just working out material. 3. I'm going to sound extremely sexist/racist/whatever right now but sometimes I get tired as I pointed in my former post about the echo chamber that happens. I get fatigued by the constant articles that pop up on Slate, Jezebel, Gawker, Twitter feeds, Splitsider, and so on when some comedian says it. Then we get links to blogs about rape culture, why women comedians are/aren't funny, why rape jokes are okay, why BLAH BLAH BLAH. It's somewhat self perpetuating. And I think its important that people do get called out on this poo poo, but its also exhausting sometimes. I know, such a loving lame excuse. I'M EXHAUSTED OVER READING ABOUT THIS CIRCLE JERK IN THE COMEDY WORLD. But sometimes I do get that way. Sometimes I genuinely think people get so worked up about stuff they forget they have to laugh...at jokes and AT THEMSELVES. It reminds me of that Joan Rivers story which I can't remember where I listened to it, but was about her I believe making a joke about someone being blind and then an audience member informing her that she had a child (I think) that was blind and that its not funny. And its times like that, that you have to remember there is always someone who will find something to be upset about. I'm adopted. You won't believe how many times there are jokes where the punchline is basically "Well at least you aren't adopted" or "You find out you're the adopted one." And often they're very funny. But it is personal at the same time. Not literally personal talking about me but it is something that informs my existence in a way that people who are not adopted will never know. But at times I think people need to learn to roll with the punches sometimes. BUT othertimes I think people do cross a genuine line and its why getting upset is about it. I'd rather have people making all those tweets and blog posts than them not.
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Jun 4, 2013 21:35
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Beef Jerky Robot posted:The couple episodes of Ben Show I watched seemed like they were halfway into the creative process and then were all of a sudden made to film what they had. Yeah Legit is on FX, that's why I put new shows in parentheses though looking at it now that didn't make any sense. I'm not real sure why I included it because it's not really anything like the others. Ben Show had some good bits. I loving loved the Yobitchuaries! and the cartoon crack stories from Todd Bridges. He did a lot of the 'cringe worthy' interviews with people where he's subtly making fun of them, but those usually just made me uncomfortable, though I can see why people would like them.
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Jun 4, 2013 22:05
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I really like Amy Schumer's show, I didn't much care for the ep that had the scary movie/extended fart sequence, but it was just the least funny out of all of them and it's no big deal because I've really enjoyed the rest. MY GIRLFRIEND is *really* liking her show, and I can understand why, because it resonates.
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Jun 5, 2013 12:20
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Yeah, Inside Amy Schumer's pretty good in my book, as Kroll Show was. But I don't get the hate Jeselnik Offensive and Jeff Ross's show get. They were both absolutely hilarious, in my book. I re-watch all the episodes of both of them quite frequently, because I still find them absolutely hysterical. I guess different strokes for different folks.
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Jun 5, 2013 14:36
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The problem I have with the Kroll Show is that it feels like enjoying it requires pop culture knowledge of things that I just don't pay attention to or care about, like celebrity gossip and reality TV shows. And if I don't have any knowledge of Annoying Celebrity X then Kroll's parody of them won't be funny social parody to me, it'll just be a really annoying person that I'm watching do a really annoying thing and I'll end up annoyed rather than amused. The same goes for Jeselnek: I don't pay attention to the things he talks about outside of his show because they bore or annoy me, I don't want to hear about them on his show either. Inside Amy is great, though. There's an occasional dud, but some of the bits are funnier than any other sketch show on TV outside of Key & Peele. Edit: On another note, does anybody have any favorite slightly lesser-known comedy albums that are on Spotify? I've already gone through the big ones and I want more free comedy. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jun 6, 2013 |
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Jun 6, 2013 00:54
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I get that some people are burned out on the rape joke thing, so if you are, skip my post. Jim Norton has an article up today about people sending rape threats to Lindy West after their debate on Totally Biased the other night, I thought it was pretty good. Also, apparently Kurt Metzger started making fake Facebook/comment accounts for Lindy West and then decided to have a meltdown about it? 
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Jun 6, 2013 02:54
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Kurt Metzger is the worst.
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Jun 6, 2013 04:45
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Was Metzger the guy who went off on the UCB Theatre without understanding what their ethos was?
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Jun 6, 2013 05:16
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Groucho Marxist posted:Was Metzger the guy who went off on the UCB Theatre without understanding what their ethos was? yeah he was mad that he wasn't getting 20$ for 10 minutes of his act.
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Jun 6, 2013 06:44
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Yeah he was talking out of his rear end.
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Jun 6, 2013 07:56
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