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Alereon posted:Bonus Edit: Even Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701, which was an egregious case of unprofessional behavior, may not have occurred if the pilots had received adequate training in the high-altitude performance of their aircraft so they knew exactly how stupidly dangerous what they were about to attempt is. In short, you can call out the pilots for doing something stupid, but you need to call out their airline for not making sure they knew how stupid it was. I've never heard of this but I'm glad you posted it. It sounds like the most expensive "HOLD MY BEER AND CHECK THIS OUT" ever.
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Jul 9, 2013 00:52
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 13:44 |
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VikingSkull posted:Also, how hosed is that crew going to end up from this? Just run of the mill hosed? Or soooooo fuuuuuucked? Since the crash happened at KSFO... hella hosed
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Jul 9, 2013 00:53
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slidebite posted:Aren't a lot (most?) of the alarms off when you're set up for final though? Eh. The horn would come on in the AWACS often if the pilots dropped flaps 25+ without the gear down or if the #3 throttle was retarded w/o the gear down as well.
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Jul 9, 2013 00:59
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I guess other than their stupid low airspeed, presuming their sinkrate in itself wasn't crazy, what else would you get for an alarm before a shaker? Honest question.
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Jul 9, 2013 01:02
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slidebite posted:I guess other than their stupid low airspeed, presuming their sinkrate in itself wasn't crazy, what else would you get for an alarm before a shaker? Honest question. Low airspeed could very well mean crazy rear end sink rate. I figure they got a stick shaker as well. Those guys weren't flying; they were falling. With their descent profile and low speed, the guy flying must have been trimming nose up like a madhouse. Then again, they did smash into a sea barrier so maybe trimming wasn't a thing they did either?!?!
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Jul 9, 2013 01:08
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Polymerized Cum posted:Since the crash happened at KSFO... Eh, it'll take at least two years for any official verdict. The pilots will be shuffled off to running short hops on 737s with no chance of advancement, and slowly forced into leaving voluntarily. slidebite posted:I guess other than their stupid low airspeed, presuming their sinkrate in itself wasn't crazy, what else would you get for an alarm before a shaker? Honest question. I would think you'd get an altitude warning, but I may be mistaken in thinking some aircraft disable that on approach.
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Jul 9, 2013 01:11
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slidebite posted:I guess other than their stupid low airspeed, presuming their sinkrate in itself wasn't crazy, what else would you get for an alarm before a shaker? Honest question. The controls would start to buffet and scare the crap out of you (hopefully) If this is full on pilot error only, maybe they were in Flight Level Change (FLCH) following the guidance with the engines at idle and the autothrottle in Thrust Hold. Disappointing that 4 pairs of eyes let this happen though. Here is part of the AOM on stall protection: Note: When the pitch mode is FLCH or TOGA, or the airplane is below 400 feet above the airport on takeoff, or below 100 feet radio altitude on approach, the autothrottle will not automatically activate.
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Jul 9, 2013 01:12
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YF19pilot posted:I would think you'd get an altitude warning, but I may be mistaken in thinking some aircraft disable that on approach. Radar altimeter if it were bugged to whatever altitude they use as a "committed" point.
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Jul 9, 2013 01:13
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holocaust bloopers posted:^^^^ PURR UP! PURR UP! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 9, 2013 01:35
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Godholio posted:PURR UP! PURR UP! Racism aside that might be why they stalled.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:03
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If his plan was to drop like a rock until he hit glide slope and stabilize at the very last minute, he would have consciously tuned those warnings out. If he underestimated the power needed, the stall warning would come too late. It's a really bad plan. All I know is simulators and I'm not a pilot, but I have to start working on my glide slope at like 4,000 feet or else I always bone the landing. Fun fact: I flew an approach to 28L after I heard about the accident in FSX and I literally made the exact same mistake and hit the sea wall. The first time. Then I did it successfully a few times and determined that I am an awesome pilot and that other guy is a lovely pilot.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:18
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Wait, so I can't boogey into a field at 400 from 20k and drop gear and flaps, cut throttle, and do S turns to scrub speed like I do in Aces High II?
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Jul 9, 2013 02:20
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VikingSkull posted:Wait, so I can't boogey into a field at 400 from 20k and drop gear and flaps, cut throttle, and do S turns to scrub speed like I do in Aces High II? Uh you can. Nellis AFB has a heinous arrival that's suited to fighters really. ATC had a bet if one of the top E-3 pilots could shack the approach. That motherfucker combat descent dropped into the airfield, leveled out a few miles out, and planted that poo poo. ATC got him a case of beer.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:22
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hobbesmaster posted:Racism aside that might be why they stalled. If you watch the video, the nose seems like it's angled up more than I've usually seen. It was one of the first things I noticed, and I'm assuming with idle throttles, it's why the plane stalled.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:23
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holocaust bloopers posted:Uh you can. Nellis AFB has a heinous arrival that's suited to fighters really. ATC had a bet if one of the top E-3 pilots could shack the approach. That motherfucker combat descent dropped into the airfield, leveled out a few miles out, and planted that poo poo. ATC got him a case of beer. Did he get vulched by a Russian bang and zoomer on touchdown? That's usually my result.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:27
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holocaust bloopers posted:Uh you can. Nellis AFB has a heinous arrival that's suited to fighters really. ATC had a bet if one of the top E-3 pilots could shack the approach. That motherfucker combat descent dropped into the airfield, leveled out a few miles out, and planted that poo poo. ATC got him a case of beer.  This is awesome.Edit: V They're pretty cool on the inside too. Getting pushed down in your seat in a loving airliner. Godholio fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jul 9, 2013 |
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Jul 9, 2013 02:41
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Combat drops are the coolest poo poo ever. I've seen a bunch of fighters do some Top Gun poo poo at Stewart, but a C-5 or C-17 literally falling out of the sky tops any of it.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:45
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Colonial Air Force posted:If you watch the video, the nose seems like it's angled up more than I've usually seen. It was one of the first things I noticed, and I'm assuming with idle throttles, it's why the plane stalled. The plane being at too high of a pitch compared to the flight path is the definition of a stall.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:46
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VikingSkull posted:Combat drops are the coolest poo poo ever. I've seen a bunch of fighters do some Top Gun poo poo at Stewart, but a C-5 or C-17 literally falling out of the sky tops any of it. I've done one where we pegged out the VVI at 6 grand a minute. Jesus Christ terrain comes up fast. It was with the guy who did the Nellis approach. Sensing a trend with him.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:48
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hobbesmaster posted:The plane being at too high of a pitch compared to the flight path is the definition of a stall. Yeah, I could've worded that better. I meant the high angle up for an approach was fairly obvious in the video, at least I think it is.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:49
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Not sure if anyone saw this, but a turbine-converted Otter crashed and killed 10 people in Soldotna yesterday. 5x the deaths, small fraction of the coverage. http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/20130708/ntsb-arrives-investigate-deadly-alaska-plane-crash Polymerized Cum posted:Since the crash happened at KSFO... Considering it's San Francisco... :bigtran: or  ?Edit: 
Advent Horizon fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Jul 9, 2013 |
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Jul 9, 2013 03:15
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Alereon posted:I never suggested that the existing rules or navaids were inadequate, I suggested that perhaps it wasn't prudent to have the trainee pilot fly the approach knowing that the navaids were not functioning. That's making a choice to unnecessarily compound risk factors. Since you mentioned it though, a fancy HUD showing critical flight data does seem like it would be an essential safety-enhancing feature on new airliner models, though I don't see how it would be worth it to retrofit existing aircraft. Maybe I am stupid and this actually is a bad idea for some reason, but it seems to offer compelling safety advantages by reducing instrument scan workload especially during the critical phases of flight. I dont know what say man. I mean not having an ILS glideslope available should not be that much of a complicating factor for a pilot with that much experience, even if he didn't have a lot of hours in that particular type. There are plenty of other indicators etc for him besides that. You couldn't have asked for better conditions for a guy new to the aircraft: nice weather day, extra set of eyes in the cockpit. Should a route get scrubbed because a new guy might not be able to hack flying a visual approach without an ILS glideslope to back him up? What conditions should be in place before that is attempted? I mostly agree with you, I just think you are attributing way too much importance to this whole glideslope OTS issue. I fly every day with guys who fly visual approaches just fine without any kind of instrument glideslope or any whiz-bang cockpit gadgets and they do it just fine every time. The real issue here, which I think we are in agreement on, is that there was apparently some really lovely CRM going on in there.
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Jul 9, 2013 03:37
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I'm not a pilot, but I'd like to assume that ILS is a backup to visual in all situations where visual is prudent, i.e. good weather, daytime, etc. Laying this on a lack of ILS seems like the weakest of excuses.
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Jul 9, 2013 03:43
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slidebite posted:I guess other than their stupid low airspeed, presuming their sinkrate in itself wasn't crazy, what else would you get for an alarm before a shaker? Honest question. Depending on how the GPWS was set up, there are several audio warnings they might have been given. If the system saw the seawall as an obstacle or terrain (I have no idea if it would be in that database), it would have started giving warnings 30-60 seconds before predicted impact, and there are also warnings for excessive sinkrate or terrain closing rate.
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Jul 9, 2013 03:49
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VikingSkull posted:According to GBS, you can only speculate if you know nothing about the industry. If you have an inkling of the practices of air travel, you're just a sperg and your opinion isn't worth anything more than the average poster. Could it be something as simple as... They are so used to automated approaches that they "thought" the auto-throttle was engaged, and were just waiting for the airplane to do it's thing, rather than actively flying it? I don't know the rules around the auto-throttle, but I know that improper assumptions about the auto-throttle has caused more than a couple of crashes when the crews failed to recognize it wasn't doing what they thought it was.
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Jul 9, 2013 04:23
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VikingSkull posted:I'm not a pilot, but I'd like to assume that ILS is a backup to visual in all situations where visual is prudent, i.e. good weather, daytime, etc. I would guess 95%+ of Widebodies are doing ILS approaches, even if they take the visual they will be flying the actual glidepath. I haven't done anything but an ILS in the past 18 months that I can think of. It's not the cause and any pilot should be able to fly a visual approach, but it's just another hole that lines up in the swiss cheese. Autothrottle would have protected the speed on the plane if an ILS was flown using automation.
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Jul 9, 2013 04:23
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The Locator posted:Could it be something as simple as... They are so used to automated approaches that they "thought" the auto-throttle was engaged, and were just waiting for the airplane to do it's thing, rather than actively flying it? You don't let an airplane get low and slow on an approach. Stall warning happens, push up the throttles, call a go-around. It's a no brainer. These dudes somehow let a lovely approach go way bad only to call a GA 1.5 seconds before high fiving a sea barrier.
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Jul 9, 2013 04:30
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What's sad is, that with the vast majority of the fuel burned off flying across the Pacific, that 777 could have probably climbed like a rocket-ship if they'd reacted 10 or 15 seconds earlier.
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Jul 9, 2013 04:46
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One of the guys at work mentioned, which I'd forgotten about, that even without a radio glideslope, there should be a visual one (lights and/or colours) they can see that tells them whether they're above or below it. The thing about egpws is it uses all the sensors and computers it has access to to calculate what's happening. If there were systems not functioning (ils, for example) it may not be able to give commands. Without knowing the 777 egpws though, I can't really say for sure. CVR will be critical; they should have been getting "minimums", "sink rate", and "don't sink". "Don't sink" could be misinterpreted though, I suppose... http://youtu.be/yR0lWICH3rY
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Jul 9, 2013 05:33
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"Don't sink" is for departures though.
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Jul 9, 2013 05:38
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This is almost straight from out of Airframe.
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Jul 9, 2013 05:52
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hobbesmaster posted:"Don't sink" is for departures though. Dammit, I went all that way for such a corny joke!
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Jul 9, 2013 06:08
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holocaust bloopers posted:^^^^ It's also something you can't fail. You just have to attend and be awake. VikingSkull posted:118 knots at 200 feet, 106 upon impact. YF19pilot posted:How the hell was that thing still even in the air SCOTLAND posted:The controls would start to buffet and scare the crap out of you (hopefully) Tsuru fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jul 9, 2013 |
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Jul 9, 2013 06:23
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Advent Horizon posted:Not sure if anyone saw this, but a turbine-converted Otter crashed and killed 10 people in Soldotna yesterday. 5x the deaths, small fraction of the coverage. I did notice that. It's a bummer.
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Jul 9, 2013 06:26
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Linedance posted:Dammit, I went all that way for such a corny joke! Maybe they misunderstood sink rate and turned off their brains? 
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Jul 9, 2013 06:35
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Jul 9, 2013 07:43
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The trailer for Planes is mind-breaking. The presence of Hellcats and aircraft carriers strongly implies that the attack on Pearl Harbor did happen. You wouldn't have warplanes, aircraft carriers, and carrier escorts if there wasn't actually warfare. Come to think of it, the ships don't appear sentient.
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Jul 9, 2013 12:05
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RandomPauI posted:The trailer for Planes is mind-breaking. The presence of Hellcats and aircraft carriers strongly implies that the attack on Pearl Harbor did happen. You wouldn't have warplanes, aircraft carriers, and carrier escorts if there wasn't actually warfare. Come to think of it, the ships don't appear sentient. If you think about the world where Cars/Planes/(hopefully)Boats/etc. exists as our world roughly a thousand years after the machines rose up and killed all living things, it makes the setting go down a little easier.
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Jul 9, 2013 12:55
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And yet they continue to make the same mistake their human masters made.
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Jul 9, 2013 12:59
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Well, of course they do. There's no learning in this world.
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Jul 9, 2013 14:19
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