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Advent Horizon posted:Not sure if anyone saw this, but a turbine-converted Otter crashed and killed 10 people in Soldotna yesterday. 5x the deaths, small fraction of the coverage. Yes but is there footage of the crash as it happened? Also our viewers 1) don't live in Alaska 2) don't fly on twin otters and we can't imply their children will die while flying in them story canned. Go with reporting what people are saying about the SFO crash on twitter instead
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Jul 9, 2013 17:41
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holocaust bloopers posted:Eh. The horn would come on in the AWACS often if the pilots dropped flaps 25+ without the gear down or if the #3 throttle was retarded w/o the gear down as well. Need to get Boeing to put this feature on the C-17.
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Jul 9, 2013 17:42
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vulturesrow posted:I dont know what say man. I mean not having an ILS glideslope available should not be that much of a complicating factor for a pilot with that much experience, even if he didn't have a lot of hours in that particular type. There are plenty of other indicators etc for him besides that. You couldn't have asked for better conditions for a guy new to the aircraft: nice weather day, extra set of eyes in the cockpit. Should a route get scrubbed because a new guy might not be able to hack flying a visual approach without an ILS glideslope to back him up? What conditions should be in place before that is attempted?
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Jul 9, 2013 17:45
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Alereon posted:I'm only suggesting that the approach probably should have been flown by the more experienced training captain once they knew the navaids weren't functional. I absolutely agree that the pilot should have been able to fly the approach safely, I'm focusing on this because I'm suspecting that we'll find that the pilot flying "got behind the aircraft" during the approach, and thus every factor that made things take even a tiny bit more attention or time to complete would have contibuted to that. The decision to have the trainee pilot fly the approach even without the navaids seems like that would have been an opportunity to avoid a situation that turned hazardous. That's exactly why you would have the trainee fly the approach, since he should be able to do it in his sleep, and a trainer should have been able to monitor it in his sleep.
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Jul 9, 2013 17:52
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Alereon posted:I'm only suggesting that the approach probably should have been flown by the more experienced training captain once they knew the navaids weren't functional. I absolutely agree that the pilot should have been able to fly the approach safely, I'm focusing on this because I'm suspecting that we'll find that the pilot flying "got behind the aircraft" during the approach, and thus every factor that made things take even a tiny bit more attention or time to complete would have contibuted to that. The decision to have the trainee pilot fly the approach even without the navaids seems like that would have been an opportunity to avoid a situation that turned hazardous. Do you see how that would result in the new pilot encountering the same situation without the supervision of an instructor when it happens to him again? Eventually he's going to have to do it, it's usually best that it happens for the first time under supervision.
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Jul 9, 2013 19:12
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Nebakenezzer posted:Yes but is there footage of the crash as it happened? It was a single Otter. They're cool planes. If you live in Seattle you'll see one about every 10 minutes doing a scenic tour.
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Jul 9, 2013 20:01
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CharlesM posted:It was a single Otter. They're cool planes. If you live in Seattle you'll see one about every 10 minutes doing a scenic tour. Those aren't all otters, theres some cessnas too.
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Jul 9, 2013 20:02
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Nebakenezzer posted:Yes but is there footage of the crash as it happened?  People just can't get behind a good murder-mystery anymore, it's all blockbuster shoot-em-ups.
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Jul 9, 2013 20:14
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The Ferret King posted:Do you see how that would result in the new pilot encountering the same situation without the supervision of an instructor when it happens to him again? Eventually he's going to have to do it, it's usually best that it happens for the first time under supervision. A pilot becoming overwhelmed by workload during a critical phase of flight is an extremely hazardous condition that requires immediate corrective action to prevent an accident. That corrective action didn't happen here, which is a big deal, but it's also worth exploring the factors that increased the pilots workload and may have caused the pilot to become overwhelmed (if that is indeed what happened).
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Jul 9, 2013 20:56
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Alereon posted:Another way of looking at it is that when the pilot eventually has to do it later, he will be experienced in this type of aircraft so it won't be as stressful. The problem isn't that the pilot doesn't know how to fly an approach without the aid of the glideslope, it's that trying to do that adds workload at a time when an inexperienced pilot already has his hands full flying a "normal" approach. If he can't hand fly a visual approach without VASI, PAPI, glide slope, RNAV, etc. he needs to kindly take his rear end out of a heavy jet and get back into a Cessna 150 until he learns this most basic of piloting skills. Hand flown visuals are performed seamlessly all over the world from turf strips to international airports. Reliance on automation has killed plenty and will continue to kill.
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Jul 9, 2013 21:26
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Alereon posted:Another way of looking at it is that when the pilot eventually has to do it later, he will be experienced in this type of aircraft so it won't be as stressful. I think then we'd just be asking ourselves why this was the pilots FIRST visual approach without navigational aid backup in this aircraft. How could we allow this training deficiency to go unchecked? EDIT: This really doesn't even matter. Many MANY airports have heavy aircraft operations all day long without an ILS, or an ILS with insufficient category to allow auto-lands. These pilots are hand flying the last 1/2 - 2 miles of the approach anyway, a LOT (CAT I and II ILS approaches). This accident happened during a phase of flight where many aircraft would be in a manually controlled state anyway. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jul 9, 2013 |
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Jul 9, 2013 21:33
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Alereon posted:A pilot becoming overwhelmed by workload during a critical phase of flight is an extremely hazardous condition that requires immediate corrective action to prevent an accident. That corrective action didn't happen here, which is a big deal, but it's also worth exploring the factors that increased the pilots workload and may have caused the pilot to become overwhelmed (if that is indeed what happened). Yeah, this is pretty much the approach you take in any industrial accident investigation. Outright blaming someone, aka, "they should have known/done better" and stopping there misses a significant opportunity for the development of safer and more reliable practices. Sometimes there are unknown factors that contribute to the accident after all. Additionally, approaching the investigation from the perspective of "who do I need to blame" tends to make folks very reluctant to give complete information. Negligence or malice may still play a role, but you figure that out once the situation is understood and changes (if any) are made. Even in cases where someone is just a complete gently caress up, it's still useful to know how or why they hosed up.
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Jul 9, 2013 21:41
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Polymerized Cum posted:If he can't hand fly a visual approach without VASI, PAPI, glide slope, RNAV, etc. he needs to kindly take his rear end out of a heavy jet and get back into a Cessna 150 until he learns this most basic of piloting skills. Hand flown visuals are performed seamlessly all over the world from turf strips to international airports. Reliance on automation has killed plenty and will continue to kill. I would bet money that it was the fact that they didn't hand fly this approach that was a significant factor in what happened. Automation can hamper but it can also harm.
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Jul 9, 2013 21:58
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How do jets that big land automatically? Is it inside the plane only like an autopilot or is it in function with a navaid/something on the ground? I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around it.
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Jul 9, 2013 23:51
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Bob A Feet posted:How do jets that big land automatically? Is it inside the plane only like an autopilot or is it in function with a navaid/something on the ground? I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around it. ILS is the most common, but WAAS/LAAS-assisted GPS-guided approaches are the probably the future. They're already widely used for non-precision approaches.
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Jul 10, 2013 00:05
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So the pilot was in training with 10 flights on the 777, the IP was on his first flight as IP. They apparently both thought they had the autothrottles engaged, but they didn't. I...I just don't even. There's not a :facepalm: big enough.
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Jul 10, 2013 00:49
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Bob A Feet posted:How do jets that big land automatically? Is it inside the plane only like an autopilot or is it in function with a navaid/something on the ground? I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around it. Currently it's a combination of aircraft avionics, ground based navigational aids (category III ILS) and aircrew training and certification. It's available at the larger airports in the US.
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Jul 10, 2013 03:35
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I know combat drop chat was last page, but I remember my first time going into Iraq and combat dropping on a C-17 into Balad. I had no idea what the gently caress was going on and was pretty loving nervous.
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Jul 10, 2013 07:50
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white privilege posted:I know combat drop chat was last page, but I remember my first time going into Iraq and combat dropping on a C-17 into Balad. I had no idea what the gently caress was going on and was pretty loving nervous. Is there a good video I could see that shows the differences between a combat drop and a regular landing?
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Jul 10, 2013 08:20
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkCpnGMyGw Seriously: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=lUUU-C-7o98
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Jul 10, 2013 14:34
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NTSB quote of the day: "The airplane was airborne prior to its impact with the ground". http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/20130709/few-new-details-emerge-soldotna-plane-crash-investigation
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Jul 10, 2013 16:26
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Advent Horizon posted:NTSB quote of the day: "The airplane was airborne prior to its impact with the ground". Well, it was a sea plane, it normally impacts the water not the ground. edit: welp all otters aren't float planes, there goes that idea
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Jul 10, 2013 16:33
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In non-SFO chat news, this just came up on my Facebook feed. It's an Aviation Week review of a book called Project Terminated. The book is about all the pants-on-head crazy canceled aerospace projects from the Cold War. Looks pretty rad. Project Terminated
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Jul 10, 2013 18:14
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CroatianAlzheimers posted:In non-SFO chat news, this just came up on my Facebook feed. It's an Aviation Week review of a book called Project Terminated. The book is about all the pants-on-head crazy canceled aerospace projects from the Cold War. Looks pretty rad. This looks really interesting and will go together nicely with the other Cold War book I have my eye on, The Dead Hand, which was recommended by someone over in the AIRPOWER/COLD WAR thread in TFR I believe. Now I just need to find the time to read them.
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Jul 10, 2013 18:48
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Random question for the thread: Why does the P-8A use raked wingtips rather than the customary blended winglets from the 737 it's based on? Or should I be asking why raked wingtips aren't on the current/NG/MAX 737s?
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Jul 10, 2013 20:38
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Solkanar512 posted:Random question for the thread: Why does the P-8A use raked wingtips rather than the customary blended winglets from the 737 it's based on? Or should I be asking why raked wingtips aren't on the current/NG/MAX 737s? The P-8 is a 737-800 body with -900 wings, which are raked. edit: they're winglets actually. bloops fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jul 10, 2013 |
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Jul 10, 2013 20:44
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Solkanar512 posted:Random question for the thread: Why does the P-8A use raked wingtips rather than the customary blended winglets from the 737 it's based on? Or should I be asking why raked wingtips aren't on the current/NG/MAX 737s? Raked wingtips would extend the wingspan out past normal limits for clearance at airports. They would have to use different gates to avoid any conflict with aircraft next to them. The Navy doesn't have to worry about gate space so raked wingtips it is.
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Jul 10, 2013 20:57
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Mobius1B7R posted:Raked wingtips would extend the wingspan out past normal limits for clearance at airports. They would have to use different gates to avoid any conflict with aircraft next to them. The Navy doesn't have to worry about gate space so raked wingtips it is. Also, raked wingtips are inefficient for short trips so intercontinental and aircraft that will loiter for forever will want them while shorter ranged 737 variants will not.
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Jul 10, 2013 21:18
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hobbesmaster posted:Also, raked wingtips are inefficient for short trips so intercontinental and aircraft that will loiter for forever will want them while shorter ranged 737 variants will not. Is this because short range flights spend a larger portion climbing and descending than long ranged flights?
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Jul 10, 2013 21:20
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Jealous Cow posted:Is this because short range flights spend a larger portion climbing and descending than long ranged flights? Yes. Its a trade off between climb performance (winglets) and drag (raked wingtips).
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Jul 10, 2013 21:27
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Thanks for the info folks! I guess that explains why the hypothetical 787-3 had blended winglets.
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Jul 10, 2013 21:27
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USA Today posted:Federal crash investigators revealed Wednesday that the pilot flying Asiana Airlines flight 214 told them that he was temporarily blinded by a bright light when 500 feet above the ground. What.
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Jul 11, 2013 02:17
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^ Yep, a single pilot being blinded by a light totally explains why you were 40 knots underspeed and way too low. Also, if you were so blinded why did't you scream out in panic in a way that the black box picked up. It's like a drunk driver who plows into a school bus full of kids explaining that he was trying to avoid a squirrel in the road. Anyway, I've done a couple hikes in the Cascade Mountains, east of Seattle, on weekday mornings that last two weeks and both times I've had pretty close flybys by military jets. Last week it was a pair of F-18's (presumably EA-18's stationed at Whidbey) and today I never got a visual, which was weird given I had a wide open view of the valley it sounded like it was in that went 10 miles. Is it pretty common for them to do regular runs low through the mountains like that?
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Jul 11, 2013 02:26
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They do low, fast passes through the mountains here all the time in Virginia, i imagine they have similar routines out west, probably even better training since you have real mountains. Had the pleasure of seeing an F-22 do a low banking pass while swimming in a local river last year, that was pretty cool.
Terrible Robot fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 11, 2013 02:34
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How many F-35's are out now? I was flying alone the shoreline yesterday and flew over what looked like two in formation on a long final to a runway at Eglin. I know there is at least one of them out there because I've seen it land in formation, one time with an F-15 and one time with an F-16, and NAS Pensacola
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Jul 11, 2013 02:49
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Terrible Robot posted:They do low, fast passes through the mountains here all the time in Virginia, i imagine they have similar routines out west, probably even better training since you have real mountains. Had the pleasure of seeing an F-22 do a low banking pass while swimming in a local river last year, that was pretty cool. There's some pretty cool videos on youtube of pilots doing terrain following in the Sierra Nevadas down in CA and I saw a ton of them when I climbed Mt. Whitney a few years ago. I imagine the guys out of Whidbey are doing the same.
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Jul 11, 2013 04:42
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BeastOfExmoor posted:^ Yep, a single pilot being blinded by a light totally explains why you were 40 knots underspeed and way too low. Also, if you were so blinded why did't you scream out in panic in a way that the black box picked up. It's like a drunk driver who plows into a school bus full of kids explaining that he was trying to avoid a squirrel in the road. Absolutely. Their are multiple VR routes in Washington and honestly the best ones in the United States are those. I'd almost guarantee the route you saw them on was the VR-1355 which is the best one of the lot. Prowler / Growler guys fly them a lot. All the Navy Prowlers and Growlers (with the exception of the reserve squadron) are based in Whidbey along with the FRS (training squadron) so those routes get used a lot. You might also see them if you do any hiking on the Olympic peninsula as their is MOA over that area that is used a lot.
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Jul 11, 2013 06:29
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In non-plane crash news (with no chance of human pilot error  ) the Navy's X-47 UAV completed its first carrier landing recently.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPaH8CCtRVU
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Jul 11, 2013 06:34
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Frinkahedron posted:In non-plane crash news (with no chance of human pilot error Now let's see it do that trick in less-than-ideal seas.
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Jul 11, 2013 07:15
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Bob A Feet posted:How many F-35's are out now? I was flying alone the shoreline yesterday and flew over what looked like two in formation on a long final to a runway at Eglin. I know there is at least one of them out there because I've seen it land in formation, one time with an F-15 and one time with an F-16, and NAS Pensacola The Marines have a bunch, and I think Eglin is getting the next few, or maybe the Marines are bringing some over, something like that.
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Jul 11, 2013 15:41
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