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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Interestingly, this is the subtext of Iron Man 3, with the AI suit. You keep saying "should" as if you're the sole arbiter and gatekeeper in storytelling. Are you seriously so vain that you can't analyze what's presented to you, but rather have to spend all your time crafting this mental SMG-approved re-script, re-shoot, re-premise of a flim?
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Jul 21, 2013 04:01
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jivjov posted:I had the same thought. If it was so easy to confuse this is Transformers, why didn't the movie make gangbusters? I think there actually was a backlash against Transformers that landed square on Battleship. Being on the forums does kind of create a tunnel-vision about popular opinion, but still, I think Transformers became a safe target for "Boy, isn't that stupid!" and then Battleship, being adapted from a narrativeless board game, was seen as an even safer target to make fun of.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:02
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^^^^ Also true- I didn't see that movie for months because it looked like that same kind of big, dumb tiring spectacle movie, but when I finally did see it, it was actually rather enjoyable.Jack Does Jihad posted:People seemed to scoff at it like "Oh, so it's Transformers?" despite the fact that they'd probably see a Die Hard rip-off without thinking twice about it. Yeah, I definitely knew some people that thought it was some kind of cheap knockoff of Transformers and didn't want to go near it for that reason. On the other hand, I don't know what kind of trailer material that was in the movie could have shown otherwise while still sticking to what marketing would want from a trailer.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:03
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Jack Does Jihad posted:People seemed to scoff at it like "Oh, so it's Transformers?" despite the fact that they'd probably see a Die Hard rip-off without thinking twice about it. I knew from all the prerelease stuff that this was going to be like Transformers only in the fact that there were large metal bipeds in it. I seem to recall an over large amount of the Transformers marketing was centered around Megan Fox' boobs, midriff, or rear end, with some pretty dire "jokes" sprinkled in. Pacific Rim's marketing seemed to focus a lot more on the Kaiju (in general, you never got a whole lot of good looks at any one in particular) and the concept of the drift (or at least the motion-capture rig in the jaegar's cockpit). They seem so wildly different in their marketing approaches, but I did hear a lot of "oh pacific rim...that's that one that's like Transformers in the ocean, right?"
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Jul 21, 2013 04:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Interestingly, this is the subtext of Iron Man 3, with the AI suit. Explain to me how they'd go about doing this.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:06
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I remember reading somewhere that Del Toro intentionally made the kaiju to lack redeeming features because he was annoyed with the trend in recent monster movies to humanize the monster (like the King Kong remake?). His motive behind this apparently was that the kaiju are merely weapons, and have no possible correlation to the real world.quote:What I think is you could do nothing but echo the moment you're in. There is a global anxiety about how fragile the status quo is and the safety of citizens, but in my mind—honestly—this film is in another realm. There is no correlation to the real world. There is no fear of a copycat Kaiju attack because a Kaiju saw it on the news and said, I'm going to destroy Seattle. In my case, I'm picking up a tradition. One that started right after World War II and was a coping mechanism, in a way, for Japan to heal the wounds of that war. And it's integral for a Kaiju to rampage in the city. Corek fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 04:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The pilots should turn off their radios and rebel against Stacker's plan to deploy the nuke, working with Newton to free and befriend the kaiju. You can't befriend remote controlled machines. I'm afraid you've tried conversing with RC cars around your neighborhood about the death of the author. Vermain posted:If we actually desire an egalitarian society (and I should hope that people do!), I think it is absolutely necessary for us to critically analyze the constant, relatively unconscious thought patterns ("this horrible problem can only be solved through the killing of individuals") that pervade media, and see if we cannot find different ways of looking at or reframing issues to create a better, more egalitarian mainstream ideology. First, SMG is doing what the guy is claiming he is. Two, these aren't individuals. It's one thing when Liam Neeson kills a dude who was party to his daughter's kidnapping and we dismiss it as "well he's a bad person" even though he's still a human being and we have a justice system -but it's another when this movie shows us giant beasts that are organic war machines that are a direct parallel to the metal constructs we use. As I said in an earlier post, it's like worrying about the feelings of a tank. edit: haha he literally does it two posts down Fuck This Puzzle fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 04:08
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jivjov posted:You keep saying "should" as if you're the sole arbiter and gatekeeper in storytelling. Are you seriously so vain that you can't analyze what's presented to you, but rather have to spend all your time crafting this mental SMG-approved re-script, re-shoot, re-premise of a flim? I've never viewed SMG's analysis as specifically saying, "Oh, the film should have been this way in my perfect vision," or whatever, but that it's pointing to the very real, coherent question of why the film was presented in this way. Why isn't it possible for the kaiju to be reasoned with and, ultimately, saved from oppression? Why is the ultimate solution to the problems (embodied in the kaiju) of global warming a technocratic, non-governmental solution? Why are the kaiju all cloned and female? Answering these questions points to the ideology of the film, and if these questions continue to repeat in most modern media, then we can, perhaps, understand the ideological makeup of our time. If we actually desire an egalitarian society (and I should hope that people do!), I think it is absolutely necessary for us to critically analyze the constant, relatively unconscious thought patterns ("this horrible problem can only be solved through the killing of individuals") that pervade media, and see if we cannot find different ways of looking at or reframing issues in modern media to create a better, more egalitarian mainstream ideology.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:11
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anthraciteDragon posted:Explain to me how they'd go about doing this. Turning off the radio? Hit a switch. Rallying the proletariat? Use their fame to broadcast a message of love for kaiju. Freeing the kaiju is similar: search for a way to block the psychic link between them and their masters. Communicate with them via drifting.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:14
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Vermain posted:Why are the kaiju all cloned and female? Still waiting for some textual justification for this (the latter bit). One kaiju we see has a functioning womb. The kaiju have a lot in common with sea life, what if they're like seahorses, in which the male gets pregnant? What if the kaiju are all transvestites, possessing what we would describe as male and female sex characteristics? What if this one particular kaiju had a womb bolted on as a way of deploying another combatant from somewhere that's not the rift? You're taking after SMG, making up 'facts' to try to prove a point.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:16
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Corek posted:I remember reading somewhere that Del Toro intentionally made the kaiju to lack redeeming features because he was annoyed with the trend in recent horror movies to humanize the monster (like the King Kong remake?). His motive behind this apparently was that the kaiju are merely weapons, and have no possible correlation to the real world. I don't get why he had to put in the smaller alien masters. Just let them be wild then, the amoral, impersonal destruction that comes as the cost of living. It really seemed like the whole "close the throat" idea ties into that, that they're not hunting us out or invading, they're just passing through an accidental connection that needs to be closed. But in this story, we didn't win in any way. They've still got a bigger army than they ever sent through and they've punched a hole through twice now. We just delayed them a while. Again, without going on a read about unity, Christology, or the like, the ending felt underwhelming, and that's because they had a big "THIS IS THE REAL ENEMY!" and followed it up with "BUT LETS SKIP OVER THEM." It psyches you up and then... nothing. Cut them or fight them, anything besides than just shutting the door on them. It's pretty much tied with it's small scope for my biggest problem in the film.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:17
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jivjov posted:Still waiting for some textual justification for this (the latter bit). One kaiju we see has a functioning womb. The kaiju have a lot in common with sea life, what if they're like seahorses, in which the male gets pregnant? What if the kaiju are all transvestites, possessing what we would describe as male and female sex characteristics? What if this one particular kaiju had a womb bolted on as a way of deploying another combatant from somewhere that's not the rift? What is the strongest, most immediate association a living human being will on average make when confronted with the image of pregnancy?
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Jul 21, 2013 04:17
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Turning off the radio? Hit a switch. Rallying the proletariat? Use their fame to broadcast a message of love for kaiju. None of those things are even HINTED at being remotely possible within the established world.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:19
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Vermain posted:I've never viewed SMG's analysis as specifically saying, "Oh, the film should have been this way in my perfect vision," or whatever, but that it's pointing to the very real, coherent question of why the film was presented in this way. Why isn't it possible for the kaiju to be reasoned with and, ultimately, saved from oppression? Why is the ultimate solution to the problems (embodied in the kaiju) of global warming a technocratic, non-governmental solution? Why are the kaiju all cloned and female? Answering these questions points to the ideology of the film, and if these questions continue to repeat in most modern media, then we can, perhaps, understand the ideological makeup of our time. I'm actually really quite grossed out by the forced gender binary that's taken place in this thread that's somehow declared the kaiju as "female" when the logic of the film declares this has nothing to do with gender, and simply developing another way to destroy and terrorize a greater number of humans - by giving birth to another kaiju. This is more asexual than anything else and has nothing to do with gender. It's simply a machine self-replicating, like an amoeba or liverworts. quote:If we actually desire an egalitarian society (and I should hope that people do!), I think it is absolutely necessary for us to critically analyze the constant, relatively unconscious thought patterns ("this horrible problem can only be solved through the killing of individuals") that pervade media, and see if we cannot find different ways of looking at or reframing issues in modern media to create a better, more egalitarian mainstream ideology. This post is creepy, especially since in the above, you are yourself reinforcing bigoted ideology with regards to the gender binary. Also insinuating that everyone that doesn't agree with you isn't for an egalitarian society and thus, a bigot, is a pretty low attempt at performative intellectualism.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:20
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Miltank posted:None of those things are even HINTED at being remotely possible within the established world. They are explicitly shown using a switch to turn a radio on/off.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:21
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Vermain posted:What is the strongest, most immediate association a living human being will on average make when confronted with the image of pregnancy? Your point being? This is a movie in which humanity goes with "giant robots" instead of all number of other more (real-worldly)"reasonably" military solutions to combat Kaiju. The "immediately obvious" is already thrown pretty far out the window long before we reach the pregnant kaiju scene.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:21
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Turning off the radio? Hit a switch. Rallying the proletariat? Use their fame to broadcast a message of love for kaiju. I'm sure the people of the world who live under the fear and threat of the Kaiju would love to hear some Jaeger pilots call for them to stop the hate and love the Kaiju. Ignore Slattern and his buddies chewing on the buildings and squashing people underfoot. They can't help themselves, they're under control of an otherwordly evil, you need to pity them and love them, right up to the point where they eat you and your family, then you can be united with them for the rest of your life!
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Jul 21, 2013 04:21
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jivjov posted:Your point being? When images appear in a film - or in any work of media - they are generally symbolic of something in that they are meant to evoke a certain unconscious response and understanding. The image of a cross, to the majority of Western audiences, will conjure to mind Christianity (and, more literally, the salvation promised therein), while the image of pregnancy will conjure to mind a woman. If a monster is given this very strong symbolic element, what other conclusion should be drawn?
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Jul 21, 2013 04:23
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quote:Communicate with them via drifting. They tried that, then Charlie Day got attacked by a giant monster with a little baby monster booby trap to try and stop them from doing it again.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:25
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Vermain posted:When images appear in a film - or in any work of media - they are generally symbolic of something in that they are meant to evoke a certain unconscious response and understanding. The image of a cross, to the majority of Western audiences, will conjure to mind Christianity (and, more literally, the salvation promised therein), while the image of pregnancy will conjure to mind a woman. If a monster is given this very strong symbolic element, what other conclusion should be drawn? I listed a whole shitload of them, and another poster got one too, self-replication rather than traditional pregnancy. Pretending my points don't exist don't make them go away.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:26
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Miltank posted:None of those things are even HINTED at being remotely possible within the established world. I think that's his point, that the movie is constructed so that the only solution is violent. He's suggesting that it should be constructed differently.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:26
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Vermain posted:When images appear in a film - or in any work of media - they are generally symbolic of something in that they are meant to evoke a certain unconscious response and understanding. The image of a cross, to the majority of Western audiences, will conjure to mind Christianity (and, more literally, the salvation promised therein), while the image of pregnancy will conjure to mind a woman. If a monster is given this very strong symbolic element, what other conclusion should be drawn? This is an idiotic question that declares that all context and everything else in a film should be succinctly ignored for the sake of proving your argument right. The kaiju masters are an alien species from another dimension who move between worlds through rifts and building giant organic monsters to slaughter occupying species, constantly evolving them as time passes. It's not that hard to understand they developed implanting a kaiju with another kaiju to cause more and more destruction in order to wipe the human race.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:28
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jivjov posted:I listed a whole shitload of them, and another poster got one too, self-replication rather than traditional pregnancy. Are any of those something that a typical person is actually going to associate with pregnancy, though? The association of pregnancy with the feminine is ancient and pervasive, to the point where I sincerely doubt that showing someone a picture of a swollen belly today would conjure to mind anything but a woman. If a creature has a baby within it, what is the obvious conclusion that would be drawn?
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Jul 21, 2013 04:28
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A human heart posted:I think that's his point, that the movie is constructed so that the only solution is violent. He's suggesting that it should be constructed differently. Yeah he can't do that. We're discussing the movie as it is not the movie as he hoped it would be. He's also acting as if the movie supports his points. Superstring posted:It's weird how much people are latching onto a Christian reading for Pacific Rim. Y'know, it's source material comes from a place that has other religions, right? But the man who made it comes from a Christian nation. Thus,
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Jul 21, 2013 04:28
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It's weird how much people are latching onto a Christian reading for Pacific Rim. Y'know, it's source material comes from a place that has other religions, right?
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Jul 21, 2013 04:29
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anthraciteDragon posted:I'm sure the people of the world who live under the fear and threat of the Kaiju would love to hear some Jaeger pilots call for them to stop the hate and love the Kaiju. Ignore Slattern and his buddies chewing on the buildings and squashing people underfoot. They can't help themselves, they're under control of an otherwordly evil, you need to pity them and love them, right up to the point where they eat you and your family, then you can be united with them for the rest of your life! The LFest opinions. Not even a burn, there are Carlos Latuff cartoons that hold the exact same sentiments towards American soldiers. Can't find it, cause the dude makes five new cartoons every day (It's the one with a soldier saying "You see, I'm also a victim" to a kid whose parents he just shot), but still, it's a respectable opinion. A message of forgiveness and unity is not universal, but I'd really like to see a film about humanity uniting across all borders to be more radical than just "If we don't unite we die." It's a movie about giant robots, why be crass?
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Jul 21, 2013 04:30
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Superstring posted:It's weird how much people are latching onto a Christian reading for Pacific Rim. Y'know, it's source material comes from a place that has other religions, right? The reading SMG is giving isn't necessarily "Christian" in the sense of "the Lord God exists and we wish to be reunited into the Godhead" or whatever, but it is "Christological" (since the personage of Christ is about personal sacrifice, redemption, and universal love).
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Jul 21, 2013 04:31
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Vermain posted:Are any of those something that a typical person is actually going to associate with pregnancy, though? The association of pregnancy with the feminine is ancient and pervasive, to the point where I sincerely doubt that showing someone a picture of a swollen belly today would conjure to mind anything but a woman. When did we see a swollen belly in Pacific Rim? We see a not-fully-formed kaiju in an organ sac in an abdominal cavity. Until that moment, there's no indication the kaiju is carrying a child (and we still haven't established it is a child. Is it biologically a child of the dead kaiju? Was the fetus [assuming the life cycle of a kaiju has any similarities to humans and thus have a fetal stage] harvested elsewhere or simply assembled by the Masters and put into this particular Kaiju? Would the 'baby' ever fully matured and been viable outside its 'mother'?) and we really only have Newt's word on the matter that 'pregnant' is the most apt word to describe what's happening. I'll again say, there's a million and one ways to interpret that scene. Unilaterally declaring "all kaiju are female" means you've chosen to disregard all points and interpretations but your own. Since that is the case, I kindly ask you to leave the discussion, since you've stopped participating in it in any meaningful manner.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:33
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Superstring posted:It's weird how much people are latching onto a Christian reading for Pacific Rim. Y'know, it's source material comes from a place that has other religions, right? No Jesus, no peace, know Jesus know peace. SMG is a lovely bumpersticker.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:33
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anthraciteDragon posted:I'm sure the people of the world who live under the fear and threat of the Kaiju would love to hear some Jaeger pilots call for them to stop the hate and love the Kaiju. Ignore Slattern and his buddies chewing on the buildings and squashing people underfoot. They can't help themselves, they're under control of an otherwordly evil, you need to pity them and love them, right up to the point where they eat you and your family, then you can be united with them for the rest of your life! Correct. It's people who refuse this message that are the true enemy. It's not about pity, though. It's about freedom and solidarity. Superman doesn't pity humanity. He does what he does, and believes in humanity to make the right choice.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:33
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Popular 2001 film Black Hawk Down has a disturbing tendency towards otherisation and violence. The RPGs deployed to destroy the titular Blackhawks are not reasoned with, only feared and avoided when possible. Despite being complex pieces of machinery capable of detecting an impact and exploding, no characters respond favourably to their presence, and the various equipment such as Humvees and Blackhawks do not even attempt to engage in diplomacy. In fact, one soldier is impaled with a warhead, and despite their intimate relationship the humans' immediate response is to treat it like a threat and attempt to remove it. I can't remember what happens after that but I hope they all died. Also the warheads are female because they're ugly. Skellybones fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 21, 2013 04:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Correct. It's people who refuse this message that are the true enemy. It's not about pity, though. It's about freedom and solidarity. By that logic, WWII was pointless as we could have negotiate with Hitler and forgive Pearl Harbor. See? The Holocaust wasn't that bad! He's just a good guy down at heart.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:37
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jivjov posted:We see a not-fully-formed kaiju in an organ sac in an abdominal cavity. Until that moment, there's no indication the kaiju is carrying a child (and we still haven't established it is a child. Is it biologically a child of the dead kaiju? Was the fetus [assuming the life cycle of a kaiju has any similarities to humans and thus have a fetal stage] harvested elsewhere or simply assembled by the Masters and put into this particular Kaiju? Would the 'baby' ever fully matured and been viable outside its 'mother'?) and we really only have Newt's word on the matter that 'pregnant' is the most apt word to describe what's happening. Again: Why was the "baby" (and it is, very clearly, a smaller kaiju in an embryonic state) present in what is basically a womb? Why does it have an umbilical cord? Why was it not present, say, in a large, cone-shaped growth on the back of the kaiju that explodes in order to release another mostly-formed kaiju? You cannot stuff immense amounts of pregnancy imagery into a scene and then declare it has nothing to do with pregnancy and all of the associated, symbolic imagery that entails.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:39
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7thBatallion posted:By that logic, WWII was pointless as we could have negotiate with Hitler and forgive Pearl Harbor. See? The Holocaust wasn't that bad! He's just a good guy down at heart. Hitler was not a member of the proletariat. He was the leader of the country. Kill Hitler and rally the poor (not necessarily in that order).
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Jul 21, 2013 04:40
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The Kaiju are the way they are because in addition to old Japanese monster movies, Del Toro loves him some H.P. Lovecraft. They're Lovecraftian monsters. The dimension past the Rift was Lovecraftian to hell. I hope if The Call of Cthulhu ever gets translated to film we hear the same complaints about why the characters don't try to make friends with Cthulhu instead of ramming him in the head with a yacht.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:40
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Superstring posted:It's weird how much people are latching onto a Christian reading for Pacific Rim. Y'know, it's source material comes from a place that has other religions, right?  The source material rules, by the way.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:40
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Mecha Gojira posted:
Agreed. But to not take into account the different cultural background seems short sighted to me.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:42
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I am frustrated by my inability to find any classic sentai stuff on Netflix. Could rent the discs but where to start...
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Jul 21, 2013 04:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Hitler was not a member of the proletariat. He was the leader of the country. The gas chambers and gestapo were both manned by the proletariat. You are wrong.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:44
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7thBatallion posted:By that logic, WWII was pointless as we could have negotiate with Hitler and forgive Pearl Harbor. See? The Holocaust wasn't that bad! He's just a good guy down at heart. It's more akin to negotiating with the Tigers and Stukas and V2s. Superstring posted:I hope if The Call of Cthulhu ever gets translated to film we hear the same complaints about why the characters don't try to make friends with Cthulhu instead of ramming him in the head with a yacht. It only makes him take a nap so it's a waste of violence.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:45
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