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Bovineicide posted:If you can't tell the difference between games with new mechanics and art assets vs. games that are pretty much recycled, you're being willfully dense at this point. Bullshit. There's several new mechanics showcased so far in 3D World, not the least of which is 4-player co-op (which they've never even done with 2 players in a 3D Mario game before). You're making this criteria up as you go along.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:53
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Bovineicide posted:Do you see it moving consoles against the PS4 and XB1 launches, though? You're moving the goalposts now: you said they don't move consoles but what you meant to say was they won't move consoles in as high number in lieu of impending competition, which is a completely different statement. To answer your question, yes, I see it moving consoles BUT not in as high numbers as Nintendo would hope due to more than just a lack of games. There's a lack of a cohesive and focused advertisement campaign, the price is still too high, there's consumer confusion between the Wii and WiiU (like there was with the DS and 3DS), and a lack of consistent and compelling software. I think it'll do much better in Japan due to the XBone having little to no presence but it absolutely will not drive the install base as high as Nintendo hopes due to the other issues I mentioned.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:56
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Bovineicide posted:If you can't tell the difference between games with new mechanics and art assets vs. games that are pretty much recycled, you're being willfully dense at this point. How does 3d world not have new mechanics and art assets? It's the same visual style but there is quite obviously new mechanics and art assets, for example multiple characters each with their own play style. It has more new going on than Super Mario Galaxy 2, and to call that not a "real" Mario game would be crazy.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:58
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Bovineicide posted:edit: even then, I don't think the PSP really gave it a run for its money outside of Japan, did it? Oh it absolutely did. The DS looked DOA for the first year compared to the PSP but then the DS began to get games that moved the hardware and tapped into the 'casual' audience the same way the Wii did. For all intents and purposes, the DS floundered as much as the WiiU is in its first year.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:00
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The_Frag_Man posted:Skyward sword is a good game. The motion controls aren't perfect, but it works pretty well most of the time, and it is integrated with regular gameplay in a way that I found engrossing. Some of the sword fights are really intense and fun. There are some excellent boss fights, and excellent music. It's not perfect though, some times the motion controls get out of alignment and you have to 'center' the wii-mote a few times every play session, but it's no reason to pretend the game is poo poo. Yeah I liked it as well. I wasn't interested at first since TP was disappointing and I went in blind and liked it fine. I just thought the air mechanic was inferior feeling wise to WW's ocean. It didn't feel adventurous enough. Fi didn't bother me like it bothered other people either.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:01
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Wii U is first out the gate, a lot of the current generation 3rd party titles are being released for consoles people already have. Once the PS4 and XBO are released and people have to decide on what console to get I wouldn't be surprised if sales pick up. Look at the system exclusives in the 360's first year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_360_games Perfect Dark, Call of Duty 2, Project Gothem Racing all at launch in November 2005, then nothing that remotely interests me until Saints Row in August 2006. Then Gears of War in November 2007.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:03
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Strange Matter posted:That's a poor comparison because the 360 was never a competitor to the DS and the PSP was an overpriced piece of hardware with no prior userbase to rely on. To think that the WiiU's situation is going to be even remotely similar is ignorant. I remember the PSP getting a lot of hype after how well the PS2 sold, and a lot of skepticism about how well the DS would do because two screens sounded dumb at the time. I never said it'd be the same situation, but to think a new Mario game like 3D World won't sell systems is bonkers. A lot of people don't really give a gently caress about most games and just want Mario, so it'll definitely push a lot of Wii Us this Christmas. More than Xbone or PS4, though? Probably not, but there's nothing to worry about.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:04
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Astro7x posted:Wii U is first out the gate, a lot of the current generation 3rd party titles are being released for consoles people already have. Once the PS4 and XBO are released and people have to decide on what console to get I wouldn't be surprised if sales pick up. If people have to choose and decide on the console to get between the PS4/XBO and WiiU what makes you think that they'll pick up the Wii U first?
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Jul 30, 2013 20:06
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Zomodok posted:If people have to choose and decide on the console to get between the PS4/XBO and WiiU what makes you think that they'll pick up the Wii U first? How else am I going to play Zelda or Mario...
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Jul 30, 2013 20:08
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NSMBU new game features are wholly different than a CoD or BF4 feature, which are more about checking off lists than actually different ways to play. The co-op block mechanic completely changes the game. They even inspired the murph levels for Rayman legends. DK2 looks like it has a really cool way for co-op as well. The Wii U doesn't have games, rushed or otherwise, which is why it's not selling. If it had games, maybe Nintendo would fart out more than a commercial every quarter, as they are doing now. The only other games worth trumpeting on the system, not made by Nintendo, are a critically hated zombie game, another Lego game, and the most obtuse japanese game upported from 3DS.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:13
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DarthBlingBling posted:How else am I going to play Zelda or Mario... Honestly after the latest entries into the Zelda series I think I'll pass. Though my post did say "First". I already have a Wii U because I'm a loving moron but tons of my friends have talked about upgrading their PC then getting either the PS4/XB1 (heavily leaning towards the PS4) and then 'eventually I'll pick up the Wii U so I can play anything interesting I miss' and when pressed for it they always talk 4-5 years from now in regards to the console.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:13
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Bovineicide posted:If you can't tell the difference between games with new mechanics and art assets vs. games that are pretty much recycled, you're being willfully dense at this point. Except we're already seen a number of new abilities and mechanics in SM3D. It has new suits and 4-player Co-Op play in a 3D Mario game and we've seen several new kinds of obstacles level design tricks just in the trailer. If you're not counting that as a new game then Mario's had very few new games. Louisgod posted:Oh it absolutely did. The DS looked DOA for the first year compared to the PSP but then the DS began to get games that moved the hardware and tapped into the 'casual' audience the same way the Wii did. For all intents and purposes, the DS floundered as much as the WiiU is in its first year. I specifically remember wanting to sell my DS for a PSP because what I was playing was like... Mario 64 for ages. It was actually Nintendogs and Brain Training that saved the system if I recall. Zomodok posted:If people have to choose and decide on the console to get between the PS4/XBO and WiiU what makes you think that they'll pick up the Wii U first? If you mean hardcore gamers, they probably won't. I think the best Nintendo can do there is push to be considered the #1 second system, so that someone is more likely to buy a WiiU after their PS4/X-Box One/PC Upgrade than they are to buy the alternate system. To do that they need games (and probably a price cut) but it's not a terrible position if they can manage it. They have absolutely no chance at being #1 unless something completely unforseen happens and they create the next Pokemon. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 20:15
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ImpAtom posted:I specifically remember wanting to sell my DS for a PSP because what I was playing was like... Mario 64 for ages. It was actually Nintendogs and Brain Training that saved the system if I recall. I think Kirby Canvas Curse and Warioware were the first true, unique games that showcased the potential of the system. Brain Age, Nintendogs and NSMB were absolute monsters in driving the IB and opened the way for Mario Kart, Animal Crossing and the like. quote:If you mean hardcore gamers, they probably won't. I think the best Nintendo can do there is push to be considered the #1 second system, so that someone is more likely to buy a WiiU after their PS4/X-Box One/PC Upgrade than they are to buy the alternate system. To do that they need games (and probably a price cut) but it's not a terrible position if they can manage it. They have absolutely no chance at being #1 unless something completely unforseen happens and they create the next Pokemon. So basically they're back to Gamecube era practices due to their attempt to appeal more to the "hardcore" gamer, which they've failed at doing so far. Really they should've stuck with a new Wii Sports/NSMBU launch combo followed up closely by Wii Fit U and Wii Party U with a massive marketing campaign. I know, Nintendo Armchair Analyst blah blah blah but they had an opportune roadmap of what does and doesn't work.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:37
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Louisgod posted:So basically they're back to Gamecube era practices due to their attempt to appeal more to the "hardcore" gamer, which they've failed at doing so far. Really they should've stuck with a new Wii Sports/NSMBU launch combo followed up closely by Wii Fit U and Wii Party U with a massive marketing campaign. I know, Nintendo Armchair Analyst blah blah blah but they had an opportune roadmap of what does and doesn't work. Pretty much. I think the gradual falling out of the Wii made them gunshy which was dumb. They had a strong brand and completely failed to leverage it, and by this point there's no real way they can with the PS4 and One looming over them. They can carve a market for themselves but it's going to put them in a much weaker position. It seems like every time a game company does well with their systems, their brains just fall out for the next generation.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:43
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Louisgod posted:You're moving the goalposts now: you said they don't move consoles but what you meant to say was they won't move consoles in as high number in lieu of impending competition, which is a completely different statement. Sorry about that. I didn't even realize that I did that until after I hit post  I don't think it would hurt if they fired their current marketing department and bought a shitload of ad space, but they're still kind of floating until everything huge releases in March. Louisgod posted:Oh it absolutely did. The DS looked DOA for the first year compared to the PSP but then the DS began to get games that moved the hardware and tapped into the 'casual' audience the same way the Wii did. For all intents and purposes, the DS floundered as much as the WiiU is in its first year. I have to find those numbers again, because I know the DS had a rough launch, but I don't think it quite reached Wii U levels of consumer apathy. I don't remember hearing about fire sales and stores refusing to stock it. I wouldn't mind being wrong, though. ImpAtom posted:Except we're already seen a number of new abilities and mechanics in SM3D. It has new suits and 4-player Co-Op play in a 3D Mario game and we've seen several new kinds of obstacles level design tricks just in the trailer. If you're not counting that as a new game then Mario's had very few new games. I'm still not seeing anything particularly great about 3D World. The co-op seems kind of thrown in there just like NSMB Wii and it still looks like an upscaled 3D Land. Maybe I'm wrong and it winds up being worth getting, but it still doesn't look like it has that "Nintendo Love" in it. And yeah, for the first several months of the DS's life, I was catching up on old GBA games 
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Jul 30, 2013 20:45
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ImpAtom posted:Pretty much. I think the gradual falling out of the Wii made them gunshy which was dumb. They had a strong brand and completely failed to leverage it, and by this point there's no real way they can with the PS4 and One looming over them. They can carve a market for themselves but it's going to put them in a much weaker position. It seems like every time a game company does well with their systems, their brains just fall out for the next generation. That said there's something to be said about being the best #2. The PS4 and Xbone are similar enough that I'd venture few people apart from those with truly expendable income will buy both. Worse case scenario for both is that they effectively split the high end gaming market and each one underperforms. If Nintendo was able to reduce their costs to a sustainable level, they could build a machine that was cheap enough for everyone to own-- so even if the Playstation or Xbox of the future era are considered the go-to console, everyone also will own Nintendo's thing.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:54
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Strange Matter posted:That said there's something to be said about being the best #2. The PS4 and Xbone are similar enough that I'd venture few people apart from those with truly expendable income will buy both. Worse case scenario for both is that they effectively split the high end gaming market and each one underperforms. If Nintendo was able to reduce their costs to a sustainable level, they could build a machine that was cheap enough for everyone to own-- so even if the Playstation or Xbox of the future era are considered the go-to console, everyone also will own Nintendo's thing. That's sort of where I am as a consumer. I like to play my favorite genre of games on the PC. I enter the console world when there's an exclusive title that interests me. I imagine many consumers are like that, where they base their system purchases primarily on exclusive titles, and the availability of multi-platform games serves as a tie-breaker.
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Jul 30, 2013 21:34
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I thought #2 status is what they wanted? Everyone has a Wii, but it's barely used unless the grandkids come over. The Wii was in a class on it's own. Different, underpowered, but efficient." Which is what MSFT is trying to channel into the Xbone.
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Jul 30, 2013 21:41
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bushisms.txt posted:Different, underpowered, but efficient." Which is what MSFT is trying to channel into the Xbone. Could you please explain this? After the huge success MS has had this generation with the bro/frat/madden and the hardcore crowd, I doubt they'll be aspiring to be a #2 or "something nice to play at a friend's house that I'd never buy" (which is what Wii is for me).
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Jul 30, 2013 22:00
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Supercar Gautier posted:But here for some reason you're selectively defining 3D World as "not a new Mario game". Any Mario game that Nintendo fanboys don't like isn't a "real" Mario game. Like all the people saying "Well the WiiU just needs a new Mario game!" when New Super Mario Brothers U exists.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:08
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Cable posted:Could you please explain this? Actually, let's divert that discussion to the XBone thread, not here. e: Assuming you're wanting clarification on MS's strategy. Louisgod fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 22:22
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OLIVIAS WILDE RIDER posted:Any Mario game that Nintendo fanboys don't like isn't a "real" Mario game. Like all the people saying "Well the WiiU just needs a new Mario game!" when New Super Mario Brothers U exists. When people want a new Mario game, they mean the successor to 64/Sunshine/SMG(2). The "New" series is getting increasingly uninspired-looking and will never fill the shoes of the 3D games.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:23
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TaurusOxford posted:When people want a new Mario game, they mean the successor to 64/Sunshine/SMG(2). The "New" series is getting increasingly uninspired-looking and will never fill the shoes of the 3D games. Wow a Mario game is increasingly uninspired. Well I never.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:24
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Cable posted:Could you please explain this? MSFT wants the Xbone in everyone's home. What nobody but Nintendo, and now MSFT are realizing, is that gamers suck. They make up a very small demographic, don't know what they want, and only want certain things. The non-enthusiast market was shown to MSFT in a dream through stock reports and headlines as the Wii slaughtered their clearly superior system. And I was wrong when I said underpowered. Nintendo was right, the graphically ceiling is sort of reached. Yes we can add bells and whistles, but in the end, no one will give a gently caress. You build your system to do what it's supposed to do, and the Boxdog is a high powered "all-in-one entertainment system." In this day and age, it's all about time. Who has your time. Apple and Google do represent a threat, because they are time-havers. They've got apps for you to time your naps on there. Nintendo is trying to be second fiddle to all of that. Which is why the gamepad exists. I sit mine on my lap while I'm on my laptop. Microsft is trying to be more up front and center, trying to disrupt the industry with out really doing any of the work. If they wanted the all digital future, they should have been helping Google wire up the country and the world. edit: Sorry Louis didn't see you. Dropping it.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:27
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bushisms.txt posted:And I was wrong when I said underpowered. Nintendo was right, the graphically ceiling is sort of reached. Yes we can add bells and whistles, but in the end, no one will give a gently caress. You build your system to do what it's supposed to do, and the Boxdog is a high powered "all-in-one entertainment system." Can we talk about this a little bit because there are still a lot more in the technology department we could discuss where they haven't hit a ceiling. CGI said that in the movies in the early 2000's and now look where we are. Why don't we wait a couple years before we go talking about how miniscule the graphical upgrades "will be" because a lot of bullshit has been sacrificed in order to use less than a gigabyte of memory alone and we won't be able to compare until the next-gen shortcuts are pushed to get the most out of a system.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:42
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From what I saw DS had a very quiet launch with ill fitted ports and games and pretty much served as a better GBA player for about half a year. Then Nintendogs Hit, Nintendogs changed the system, my friends mothers started buying them the system and that game. Then a whole year later Advance Wars Duel Strike and Animal Crossing hit. It was after that point that I figured the system getting more quality games was sort of a echo effect of those two releases but in a much more rapid pace.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:44
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Strange Matter posted:^^^DKC Returns 2 looks amazing though and as much of a step up from the first game as DKC2 was from its predecessor. That they're able to get away with releasing something like Pikmin without reviewers calling them on the fact that its just a stunted, way too simple RTS with no multiplayer indicates that journalists use the kid gloves on Nintendo. They are judged way too kindly by journalists. Louisgod posted:On the contrary, they do move consoles so you're flat wrong there, regardless of how unintuitive or genre breaking the game may be. I'm with you 100% on it being more or less a rehashing and melding of past ideas but they absolutely do move consoles. Yes, and NSMBU already moved the consoles. You're telling me there's this vast array of Mario fans who despise the 2D games, but absolutely adore and will instantly buy the 2.5D game? What pool of gamers is 3D world gonna bring in? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 30, 2013 22:46
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TaurusOxford posted:When people want a new Mario game, they mean the successor to 64/Sunshine/SMG(2). The "New" series is getting increasingly uninspired-looking and will never fill the shoes of the 3D games. I disagree with this, when I say I want a new Mario game, I mean I want something in the vein of Super Mario World. Which NSMBU doesn't quite deliver on.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:51
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My roommates and I must have been Nintendo fanatics in comparison to the average consumer. We had the DS at launch and thought it was great. Most of that was Meteos and GBA games for a time, but I didn't feel the general apathy like we're seeing now with the Wii U.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:52
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Fulchrum posted:That they're able to get away with releasing something like Pikmin without reviewers calling them on the fact that its just a stunted, way too simple RTS with no multiplayer indicates that journalists use the kid gloves on Nintendo. They are judged way too kindly by journalists. Have you played Pikmin? I don't recall thinking its simple and that multiplayer features must have been imagined by me. There is a vast amount of children born every day that did not grow up on 2D mario. Its crazy but its true. There are children who have never dealt with 2D only consoles. I think they developed what Mario games they felt like developing. Both have an appeal. Can we just rename the thread "Nintendo Hate in here"?
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Jul 30, 2013 23:06
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Fulchrum posted:That they're able to get away with releasing something like Pikmin without reviewers calling them on the fact that its just a stunted, way too simple RTS with no multiplayer indicates that journalists use the kid gloves on Nintendo. They are judged way too kindly by journalists.
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Jul 30, 2013 23:12
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Fulchrum posted:That they're able to get away with releasing something like Pikmin without reviewers calling them on the fact that its just a stunted, way too simple RTS with no multiplayer indicates that journalists use the kid gloves on Nintendo. They are judged way too kindly by journalists. That would be true if, y'know, Pikmin was an RTS at all. It doesn't have much in common with any given RTS aside from the "you have a lot of things you order around" aspect. It's more of a simple puzzle/platformer. I'm not actually a big Pikmin fan myself (and really don't see it as a system seller) but it has little in common with any given RTS. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 23:15
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Ah, I must have been playing the wrong gamewas a game about assembling units I thoPikmin was a game about procuring units, using them to gather resources, which you in turn use to gather more units, until you have enough units to accomplish your goal. Which is the definition of am RTS. Oh, it is all of those things? Huh. Edit: "its more like a puzzle platformer" yeah, here's an idea. I'm going to play the game without jumping, you play it without pulling up a single unit. We'll see which is a bigger part of the game. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 23:25
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Zomodok posted:Can we talk about this a little bit because there are still a lot more in the technology department we could discuss where they haven't hit a ceiling. CGI said that in the movies in the early 2000's and now look where we are. Why don't we wait a couple years before we go talking about how miniscule the graphical upgrades "will be" because a lot of bullshit has been sacrificed in order to use less than a gigabyte of memory alone and we won't be able to compare until the next-gen shortcuts are pushed to get the most out of a system. What I mean is, right now, it's not cost effective for the kind of graphics push people are wanting. UE4 got gimped because the PS4 and Boxdog were not what Epic requested in terms of power to run their engine. They eventually dropped the features all together, because everyone will be developing for consoles as a baseline. I think the GPU and all that, if powerful enough, can change the AI systems and all that, lighting blah blah, but it doesn't inherently make a game good. Google the top selling games of this generation. Graphics are not the sales grabber people think they are.
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Jul 30, 2013 23:27
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Fulchrum posted:Ah, I must have been playing the wrong gamewas a game about assembling units I thoPikmin was a g By that logic loving Assassin's Creed is a RTS. You can't go "it has this thing in common with an RTS, ergo it's an RTS!" Pikmin features resource collection but otherwise plays significantly differently and doesn't include any of the design decisions that you would see in an RTS. Fulchrum posted:Edit: "its more like a puzzle platformer" Do you actually know what an RTS is? It isn't "a game where you have units." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 23:27
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Really holding out hope, Sega's last exclusive game with Nintendo is Company of Heroes 2.
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Jul 30, 2013 23:29
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ImpAtom posted:By that logic loving Assassin's Creed is a RTS. You can't go "it has this thing in common with an RTS, ergo it's an RTS!" Are 100% of all tasks impossible in Assassins Creed without using your units? No? Then that comparison has absolutely no rational basis.
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Jul 30, 2013 23:34
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Fulchrum posted:Are 100% of all tasks impossible in Assassins Creed without using your units? No? Then that comparison has absolutely no rational basis. Except you keep moving the goalposts at this point. Yes, Pikmin is a game based around using your Pikmin. That doesn't make it a RTS any more than Pokemon is an RTS. After all, Pokemon... what is your definition here? quote:game about procuring units, using them to gather resources, which you in turn use to gather more resources, until you have enough units to accomplish your goal. Which is the definition of am RTS. Right. And to add your new goalpost-moving to it. quote:Are 100% of all tasks impossible in Assassins Creed without using your units? No? Then that comparison has absolutely no rational basis. Hm. Pokemon fits both of those. I guess Pokemon's a RTS? Real-time strategy games have a number of elements in common which Pikmin lacks. They play significantly differently from Pikmin which does feature unit commanding but does not use it in the same way as, say, Starcraft. They're different genres, with different design emphasis, different playstyles, and different mechanics. Pikmin has some elements in common with RTSes, but that is because genres blend a lot, not because Pikmin is, or is trying to be, an RTS. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 23:39
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Fulchrum posted:Yes, and NSMBU already moved the consoles. You're telling me there's this vast array of Mario fans who despise the 2D games, but absolutely adore and will instantly buy the 2.5D game? Hmm, you're right, 3D Land in no way attracted customers and sold over 8 million copies worldwide. Nope, not at all. But yeah, you can put words in my mouth about how I said there's a "vast array of Mario fans who despite 2D", you can say that, why not. As I already said, the WiiU has more problems than just a lack of software.
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Jul 30, 2013 23:39
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In my (worthless) opinion, the graphics ceiling hasn't been reached until we can have models interact with each other without looking like two barbie dolls being rubbed against each other, and curly hair/dreadlocks can be rendered without looking like complete dogshit. Imagine an RPG where characters interact with each other beyond staring and expositing!!!! I completely agree that graphics don't determine success (although style is pretty helpful for longevity, I can still see myself going back to any of the MGS games years from now, or No More Heroes, or Mario, or etc.) though.
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Jul 30, 2013 23:39
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