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jivjov posted:I previously expressed my displeasure with project creators choosing to make their projects too complex for Kickstarter's own tools to handle and instead make their backers jump through hoops and use mandatory external pledge managing tools. as a reductio ad absurdum, maybe
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Aug 7, 2013 00:10
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jivjov posted:I previously expressed my displeasure with project creators choosing to make their projects too complex for Kickstarter's own tools to handle and instead make their backers jump through hoops and use mandatory external pledge managing tools. That certainly is one way to put it. Another is that you steadfastly refused to accept that kickstarters built in survey tool is terrible, that external pledge managers are the norm, have been for most of the life of kickstarter, and that backerkit in particular has a good reputation and isn't a fly by night operation.
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Aug 7, 2013 00:46
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Did Evil Hat actually go through and refund his pledge because of his pernicious stupidity, or was that just something that was put on the table?
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Aug 7, 2013 01:20
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jivjov posted:I don't really care to continue a discussion here, as its not worth a probation or ban if I say something the moderators interpret badly. If you would like to continue a discussion on the topic (Preferably without dragging personal insults into the mix) could we please do it via PM? Seriously how could posting this seem remotely like a good idea? Feel free to post when you get back, dorkwad.
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Aug 7, 2013 02:05
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That whole "nasty poo poo has a right to exist" is so tired and stupid. It makes no sense. I have the right to walk up to a random person and say "You are awful and I hope you get hit by a bus." In that sense, the sentence has a "right to exist." I'm still a piece of crap for doing that. And anyone defending me because I "have the right" to say it, or even more bizarrely defending the sentence's right to exist, is an idiot and perhaps a bad person. Every well-adjusted person over the age of thirteen has figured out that for some actions, you have a right to do that action but if you do it you are an rear end in a top hat. It never fails to amaze me that so many grown-rear end nerds can't figure this out. It turns out humans have the right to be assholes, but this does not justify being an rear end in a top hat. Achmed Jones fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 07:00
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Yea I'm not sure where all these hysterical crazies demanding we gather every copy of Sword Rape The Game Where You Literally Rape A Lady With A Sword This Is A Real Thing That Happens and burn it. People are just saying it's disgusting and terrible.
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Aug 7, 2013 08:04
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea I'm not sure where all these hysterical crazies demanding we gather every copy of Sword Rape The Game Where You Literally Rape A Lady With A Sword This Is A Real Thing That Happens and burn it. People are just saying it's disgusting and terrible. It's disgusting and terrible because the people making it are disgusting and terrible. You could make a psychiatrist's moral lesson game out of TOCS with relative ease: change the sword for another treasure, add some story about the Sorceress losing her powers if she loses her virginity - a common enough fantasy trope - then allow the Thief to choose if he rapes her when they land on the same space, winning if he does and losing if he doesn't. If he does you move to the aftermath phase, where you ask searching questions of the Thief player about why he thought it was acceptable to rape a woman to win a board game - especially if he deliberately moved onto the Sorceress for the easy win instead of trying to dodge her powers and escape, which is harder. But no, we don't want any of that boring worthy poo poo in our games, do we? We're here to have fun, and rape is fun. E: You know what disgusts me most about this thing? That they made an effort to design it for replayability. Jedit fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 08:49
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Gonna be honest man, I'm not sure any game where "rape a woman" is a victory condition, even one set up to ask searching questions of the player who clicked on "y" when prompted, is actually all that worthy. Maybe that's me being shortsighted or something but I think a better game would be one where rape doesn't actually come up at all.
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Aug 7, 2013 08:53
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Kai Tave posted:Gonna be honest man, I'm not sure any game where "rape a woman" is a victory condition, even one set up to ask searching questions of the player who clicked on "y" when prompted, is actually all that worthy. Maybe that's me being shortsighted or something but I think a better game would be one where rape doesn't actually come up at all. I said it could be used as a psychiatrist's game. Those games are different from real games; they're designed to let therapists play through a scenario with a patient to gather knowledge about their pathology and to potentially guide them to understanding why certain actions are wrong.
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Aug 7, 2013 08:56
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea I'm not sure where all these hysterical crazies demanding we gather every copy of Sword Rape The Game Where You Literally Rape A Lady With A Sword This Is A Real Thing That Happens and burn it. People are just saying it's disgusting and terrible. Using this (and what it was responding to) as a jumping off point I think the trap a lot of people concerned about this stuff get into is that they get dumped with the onus to argue that this is a terrible idea when of course, the person making this stuff is, though their work, making the extraordinary claim that this is worthwhile. *They* have to prove it isn't poo poo. By conflating criticism with a challenge to the right to create, they falsely shift the onus on other people. This is basically the Zak S. rhetorical maneuver in a nutshell. "YOU prove robot sperm-thief mamas that make evil babies are stupid monsters!" when it's really the creator's job to demonstrate this isn't dumb.
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Aug 7, 2013 13:24
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea I'm not sure where all these hysterical crazies demanding we gather every copy of Sword Rape The Game Where You Literally Rape A Lady With A Sword This Is A Real Thing That Happens and burn it. People are just saying it's disgusting and terrible. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Aug 8, 2013 |
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Aug 8, 2013 15:01
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MadScientistWorking posted:The problem is that people are conflating relatively normal actions in regards to what Mikan and Gnome with exactly that. I don't get why but it happens so often where but can't understand that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences or freedom from criticism.
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Aug 8, 2013 16:09
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So someone told me to look at the other games and not judge the entire kickstarter based only on one game. One of them has "welfare queens" in the title. Another is about Jews being monsters, and it unironically uses the term "blood libel". I'm not sure I want, or need, to dig deeper.
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Aug 8, 2013 16:19
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I'm amazed how fast people will fall over themselves to defend Misery Index. As a reminder, here's what the people making it have to say about their motivations:quote:At Misery Tourism Games, we design tabletop games about vice, inhumanity and suffering. We make terrible games about terrible people in terrible situations. They're not doing it to explore the human condition or create a meaningful dialogue, they're doing it because they're sick fucks, by their own admission. I'm not sure what else you need to condemn them and their actions, really. I'm sure it's theoretically possible for a game to approach this topic in a way that is respectful of the victims and which treats the subject with the appropriate maturity and level of gravitas, but it's not going to be a game made by the people who wrote the above.
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Aug 8, 2013 16:24
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I'm sure it's theoretically possible for a game to approach this topic in a way that is respectful of the victims and which treats the subject with the appropriate maturity and level of gravitas, but it's not going to be a game made by the people who wrote the above.
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Aug 8, 2013 17:05
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MadScientistWorking posted:Honestly I don't think you need to include incredibly horrible elements in a game to approach the subject of alienation, disenfranchisement, and racism. I've seen writers do it quite deftly without having to resort to things like rape which honestly is a bit of an extreme oddity to see it tactfully done with maturity and gravitas in any medium. Hell, let's talk about a game I feel does it right: Iron Kingdoms roleplaying. It has a very, very thinly-veiled analogue of Roma, or Gypsy, culture. The culture is even non-human. They are "Gobbers", or IKRPG's version of Goblins. They are usually thieves, they are tinkers who are not always trusted, they travel in wagons, the lot. But the game engages in a frank and open discussion of the reasons behind all of them. Gobbers are portrayed as a disenfranchised minority, often unable to find acceptance or work, and are pushed into illegal careers due to the social pressures they face and the prejudices at work against them. Even though they often tend to be thieves, the prejudices are not given justification in the setting: they are not thieves by some kind of inner thieving nature, but because of opportunity and circumstance. Now anyone can be justifiably leery at depicting a real life ethnicity as a non-human species, but it serves in part to underscore the situation rather than try to vilify the Gobbers themselves. The game also avoids some of the more problematically sexist prejudices and depiction thereof in favor of the social angle. Privateer Press isn't a company that started out doing this sort of thing; this is a company whose wargame once opened, on page 5, with the words "play like you have a pair" and emphasized the masculinity of playing with little metal figurines you spend ages making pretty. They're not even perfect or anything now (models with battle-heels and such), or pushing any kind of major agenda. They simply learned better, and then did better.
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Aug 8, 2013 17:22
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Rulebook Heavily posted:One of them has "welfare queens" in the title. I'm going to defend that one - or would if it had something other than Welfare Queens in the title. Something like "Slumming It" or "Common People" or even for meta RPG commentary "Star of the Morning". It's a game about people who have it all and who dive into unnecessary grind and challenges because too easy a life is boring. And they can leave at any time. Or at least that's the alternate universe version where it's actually interesting and the mechanical focus is on the game of chicken to see how long the rich tourists last rather than instilling "learned helplessness" and getting the "welfare avatars" to do things they said "I will never do (Again)". So yeah, on thinking about it although I saw a genuinely good idea there it's a terrible game where the central premise is that poor people are there because they want to be and literally gain confidence from doing bad things they said they would never do. Yes, it is as bad as it looks. And I think the average game of Monsterhearts has more alienation and disenfranchisement than any of these games. And much more interesting things to say about them.
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Aug 8, 2013 18:06
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MalcolmSheppard posted:By conflating criticism with a challenge to the right to create, they falsely shift the onus on other people. This is argument-stopping 101, unfortunately. Crit a piece of visual art, music, writing, whatever and someone, whether the artist or someone from the Peanut Gallery will demand that you produce something better (for them to savage, of course), or invalidate your claim. Happens in geek circles, happens on DeviantArt, happened to Siskel, Ebert and Roeper like clockwork.
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Aug 8, 2013 18:37
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I have to say I appreciate William Duryea's unpleasantries being displayed front and center. It's a nice innovation. After years of games like Cthulhutech, Pathfinder, and Exalted suddenly dropping rape in their books out of nowhere, I am nicely forewarned and know to avoid Misery Index in advance.quote:We don't design games to make a moral point or push an agenda. We don't design games to offend you or your sociology professor or your congressman. We do it because we believe there is fun to be had in exploring tragedy and depravity with your friends in the safety of your kitchen, den or mother's basement. This is loving hilarious. He's perfectly cognizant that he's trying to push buttons, and trying to pretend otherwise is hilarious. It's the equivalent of me deciding Rudy Johnson's nickname is now "Dung Sundae". I mean, I'm not trying to offend Dung Sundae. I just think it's an interesting name. It's a name worth saying out loud. Dung Sundae. I'm not using it for profanity or vulgarity or because he's being a crummy person. I just like the way it sounds. ... but that would be dishonest of me, and it's dishonest of them, too. And that's the last thing art should be.
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Aug 8, 2013 18:49
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Whoa, I must have missed Pathfinder playing the rape card in the welter of terrible character costuming and useless feats. God help me. I've been thinking about this, and it reminds me of White Wolf putting awful poo poo behind its Black Dog imprint. Not because they had an imprint for the truly vile stuff, but because it was a transparent advertising vehicle for the kind of poo poo they'd already published in spots in their regular line. This 'we're not doing it to edify' is a clarion call to the kind of would-be sociopaths who are really, desperately searching for something to shock their parents and peers with, in the vain hope of looking 'edgy' rather than pathetic and gross.
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Aug 8, 2013 19:27
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Bieeardo posted:Whoa, I must have missed Pathfinder playing the rape card in the welter of terrible character costuming and useless feats. EDIT: After double checking it also features heavily in Rise of the Runelords. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Aug 8, 2013 |
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Aug 8, 2013 19:33
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MadScientistWorking posted:Honestly I don't know how Alien Rope Burn missed it because I know rape is mentioned in the core rulebook. Its not called that but the euphemism "often not the result of a loving union" certainly can only mean one thing. Perhaps Orc culture encourages friends-with-benefits relationships, especially with other races?
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Aug 8, 2013 19:38
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One alternative I've heard suggested is "orcs and humans live in tribal communities at the edges of civilization, and tribal communities intermarry". It has the benefit of being both realistic and in line with actual anthropological studies and theories about things like how humans got neanderthal DNA in them. Actual realism is always so much more interesting than what people insist is realistic in elfgames.
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Aug 8, 2013 20:13
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MadScientistWorking posted:Honestly I don't know how Alien Rope Burn missed it because I know rape is mentioned in the core rulebook. Its not called that but the euphemism "often not the result of a loving union" certainly can only mean one thing. Rape, incest, and other sexual assaults are detailed under the ogre entry in the Pathfinder Bestiary.
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Aug 8, 2013 20:20
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MadScientistWorking posted:Honestly I don't know how Alien Rope Burn missed it because I know rape is mentioned in the core rulebook. Its not called that but the euphemism "often not the result of a loving union" certainly can only mean one thing. Funny you should mention that, because I didn't. I didn't specifically mean in supplements, though yes, Rise of the Runelords gave us rural rapist ogres and their Gau posted:Perhaps Orc culture encourages friends-with-benefits relationships, especially with other races? Nope.
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Aug 8, 2013 20:30
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Funny you should mention that, because I didn't.
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Aug 8, 2013 21:19
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No biggie. I wasn't that familiar with them outside of Dragon Magazine; for me going into the Pathfinder book was my first real experience with them as a publisher. It's amusing how they appeal to Tolkien to defend their orc portrayal, because I'm trying to remember all the orc rape in Lord of the Rings and just coming up short. (And yet, I've never seen a grog bring up the Tolkienesque notion that elves die when raped. Thanks, Tolkien, for establishing that little factoid.) 
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Aug 8, 2013 21:36
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jivjov posted:Well, again, they have every right to make a game about whatever subject matter they choose. And consumers have every right to buy or not buy it. So just to get this straight: Rape RPGs = OK. Using a non kickstarter site for post kickstarter backer surveys = FORGET THAT BUDDY! I want a refund! Nice to know where your priorities lie.
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Aug 9, 2013 00:46
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Another is about Jews being monsters, and it unironically uses the term "blood libel". Which one? I didn't spot that bit of  on a quick scan through.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:24
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Verdugo posted:So just to get this straight: If you wish to drag this up and discuss it further, please PM me.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:26
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jivjov posted:If you wish to drag this up and discuss it further, please PM me. Come on, tell us how you really feel.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:31
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Verdugo posted:So just to get this straight: This is super entertaining, it really is, but jivjov is too scared of the iron boot of my tyranny to respond as is only right and proper. If this thread could get away from any perceived internal inconsistencies in his kickstarter belief system and back to the actual KS discussion which is kind of interesting, that would be super. Mors Rattus posted:Come on, tell us how you really feel. COme on guys, stop baiting the guy.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:44
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From The Needs of the Few from that terrible kickstarterquote:All crew members, besides the Captain, have Secrets. Secrets are Further on.. quote:Figuring out another player’s Secret nets you a point of Confidence, I just don't know what makes someone think "Yah, this is the game I want to write..." Edit: Oh yes, one of the players gets to play as the Captain (abuser) too and your entire goal is to get the PCs to reveal their abuse? Krabkolash fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 02:08
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neonchameleon posted:Which one? I didn't spot that bit of That was a bad on my part: it's actually a thing they said in one of their podcasts regarding their kickstarter games. Yes, they have podcasts. Yes, they are terrible.
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Aug 9, 2013 02:37
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So RPG.net shut down the thread on Misery Toruism on the grounds that the whole thing was a deliberate troll. Have we evidence of this?
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Aug 9, 2013 12:37
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We have proof of it being a thing they are trying to make money with. There's no reason something can't be both a product and a troll, unless I imagined Glen Beck's nazi bookcover in a fever dream.
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Aug 9, 2013 13:12
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neonchameleon posted:So RPG.net shut down the thread on Misery Toruism on the grounds that the whole thing was a deliberate troll. Have we evidence of this? The games presented are perfectly in line with Duryea's previous "jeepform" RPGs, only more grotesque and controversy-pushing. The only game he's really known for previously is Danse Macabre, which is a dodgy Memento Mori-based bit about the inevitability of death. He also did Six Page Manual, which was a "playable but unfinished" parody of jeepform games. ("Playable" is pretty arguable, and "parody" - well, being transgressive alone isn't enough to be a parody.) I think trying to distinguish trolling from his regular output is going to be hard. It seems to be part and parcel with what he just does, which is transgression for its own sake. Does that make for good games? I don't really think so - at the very least, I don't see myself wanting to fund or play what he does. There are a lot of other criticisms that can be made, but it really just boils down to that.
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Aug 9, 2013 13:40
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They are also not good for opening discussion, despite what the man says, because they're basically "White guy writes lovely games about horrible things that don't personally affect him, waits for people to get offended". It's such a transparent-seeming troll that I can't help but wonder if the dude is actually trying to be serious.
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Aug 9, 2013 14:23
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neonchameleon posted:So RPG.net shut down the thread on Misery Toruism on the grounds that the whole thing was a deliberate troll. Have we evidence of this? Rulebook Heavily posted:It's such a transparent-seeming troll that I can't help but wonder if the dude is actually trying to be serious. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 14:47
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It's Poe's Law in RPG form, I guess
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Aug 9, 2013 15:25
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