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Bongo Bill posted:Nobody's deserving of contempt just for preferring to exclude that from their leisure. SMG's contempt for me is only fair, since I contemn him extremely. His contempt for the audience, and--well, for his own intellectual integrity on the other hand...
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Aug 9, 2013 01:25
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Bonaventure posted:SMG's contempt for me is only fair, since I contemn him extremely. His contempt for the audience, and--well, for his own intellectual integrity on the other hand... This thread was so much better before the movie came out.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:28
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OldPueblo posted:Please deconstruct the bulldog's weight for me, I know it must mean something since they showed the dog a lot. I mean your average dog is fairly svelte, but they went with a dog that is really stocky. Does its safety "weigh" heavily on Chuck's conscience? Is the fact that it's a wide-set animal key us into the wide range of emotions that play between father and son? Was he loving the dog and we in turn are loving our dogs metaphorically when we don't take care of our mother earth? The dog actually is deliberately employed as a metaphor for the jaegers and 'the drift'. Del Toro's said as much in interviews. The father and son have trouble expressing love for eachother directly, so they communicate through the dog. I don't think it's clearly conveyed in the film, but the idea is that the Jaegers are like dogs in that they are not human, but are elevated to the level of characters because of their connection to their owners. You should feel empathy for the robot even though it is just a puppet. (See the scene where the protagonists talk about the robot's heart, obviously referring to themselves.) That, of course, returns to my original point that Gipsy Danger doesn't have a personality and doesn't not really become its own character. When it's torn apart and then explodes at the end, I didn't really care because it's just a car with legs. (Contrast this with Toy Story 3, Ghost in the Shell films, etc.) That the robot isn't uncannily human is not necessarily a failing, but it is noteworthy. The hirsute dog also ties into the encounter with hirsute Leatherback, and the scene where father and son bond over (in this case) their mutual reaction against the creature. This all goes back to the point about the heroes forming an organic community that unites through exclusion. If I recall, they make a point of the dog being female as well. You get a lot dog imagery in films about cyborgs because they explore this grey area between human and not-human.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If I recall, they make a point of the dog being female as well. They make a point of saying it is a male dog. When the dog sees Mako Hercules gives a line about his getting excited when it sees a pretty girl.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:47
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The dog actually is deliberately employed as a metaphor for the jaegers and 'the drift'. Del Toro's said as much in interviews. The father and son have trouble expressing love for eachother directly, so they communicate through the dog. Max is a male dog. Chuck calls him a good boy at several points. Max and Chuck are pretty much there to be deliberately compared - both swagger around 'as only a fat bulldog can' with their broad chest and lack of understanding of what's going on around them ("It's MY bomb run!") But Chuck's loving treatment of Max is what foreshadows the fact that he's a decent person beneath his egotistical braggadocio. The Hansens definitely communicate through Max. When Chuck leaves, he doesn't kiss or even really hug Herc - he kisses Max on his wrinkly forehead. I can't be the only one who sees Chuck doing that as an echo of how his father would probably say goodbye to him before going on a Jaeger drop.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:51
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Tezcatlipoca posted:They make a point of saying it is a male dog. When the dog sees Mako Hercules gives a line about his getting excited when it sees a pretty girl. Ah, I remembered the dog's name being Rosy or something, but turns out it was Max. That's actually a good observation there, though. When he says the dog find the girl attractive, he's very obviously using the dog as a vehicle to express his own feelings.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:59
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ah, I remembered the dog's name being Rosy or something, but turns out it was Max. Could even be a subtle dig at Chuck, depending on how you read Chuck and Mako. But good point!
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Aug 9, 2013 02:07
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It did seem like Chuck was a bit jealous over Raleigh and Mako throughout, so I'm inclined to think Herc was treating Max (again) as a surrogate for Chuck when he made that remark.
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Aug 9, 2013 02:24
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Dessel posted:Ugh, I managed to skim backwards to page 193 before giving up. I liked the film, I think it might've been best dose of entertainment I've had in such a short time, ever. I didn't understand why Hannibal was even in the film though, seemed like such a waste of screen time. I tried searching the thread, but wasn't it kind of obvious that Mako's father was the co-pilot of Coyte Tango with Stacker and her father dying in that battle we saw in the flashback. Well, apparently not according to the wiki. Meh. I felt it was being alluded to constantly. Would've made perfect sense why Stacker took such a fatherly role and why Mako accepted it. I don't think Mako ever had any relationship with Stacker prior to the attack on Japan. From Mako's flashback and point of view as a child, it looked like Mako and Stacker were the only people alive left in the city which is where their bond starts T.G. Xarbala posted:It did seem like Chuck was a bit jealous over Raleigh and Mako throughout, so I'm inclined to think Herc was treating Max (again) as a surrogate for Chuck when he made that remark. I don't think Chuck was jealous of Rayleigh and Mako, Chuck is a professional who has been raised and trained to be a pilot for all his life. Rayleigh and Mako are a call back to the wilder days when Jaegar pilots acted like rock stars and could do whatever they want. Gipsy Danger arguably lost because hotshot jaegar pilots couldn't take orders.
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Aug 9, 2013 05:45
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Chuck? Professional? The guy who is so obviously all the worst parts of that rock star mentality? The guy who takes his little fat bulldog everywhere he goes (which, as SMG points out, could be a status symbol)? Herc is a professional, his son clearly isn't despite how he has been raised. Raleigh gets along better with Herc, Stacker and Mako. In the novel, Chuck openly insults the Wei triplets and the Kaidonovskys. Chuck is clearly jockeying for the alpha position in the Hong Kong Shatterdome with the tragedy being that no one else cares. Chuck is Raleigh at the start of the film. There is no way Chuck wasn't milking the fame and benefits of being a Jaeger pilot for all they were worth. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 06:10
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Dessel posted:v Due to the aforementioned connections I spoke of it would make almost too much sense regardless. One could ask why she was alone there with no people in sight in the first place, though? Even if Stacker in reality just stumbled out of half-trashed jaeger and collapsed like Raleigh after solo piloting, Mako still remembers him like shining knight/Jesus or whatever. Pyromancer fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 08:04
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Milky Moor posted:Chuck? Professional? The guy who is so obviously all the worst parts of that rock star mentality? The guy who takes his little fat bulldog everywhere he goes (which, as SMG points out, could be a status symbol)? Herc is a professional, his son clearly isn't despite how he has been raised. Chuck is a professional by Australian athlete standards. Which means that he's a complete and utter shithead with no tact or respect whatsoever, unless there's a camera pointed at him, and even then it's a bit nebulous.
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Aug 9, 2013 08:16
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So this is now in Japan. I wonder if it'll break any records there.
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Aug 9, 2013 14:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The dog actually is deliberately employed as a metaphor for the jaegers and 'the drift'. Del Toro's said as much in interviews. The father and son have trouble expressing love for eachother directly, so they communicate through the dog. Related to that, it's interesting that the dog is never used to communicate anything negative, even indirectly (e.g. by placing the dog in peril so we feel something bad while it's on screen.) We also don't get the "dog being sad when owner is gone" thing. The dog is only shown as something that interacts with people and its environment in a positive way. Which of course is perfect if it's a metaphor for the drift, which is in essence "human togetherness saves the day." In Transformers movies the robot protagonists have bad characteristics associated with dogs, down to humping on legs.
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Aug 9, 2013 15:17
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Well that backfired on me.
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Aug 9, 2013 15:52
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OldPueblo posted:Well that backfired on me. Don't feel bad. del Toro and Beacham straight out stated that the dog was there for the Hansens to communicate through since they were so bad at talking to each other. All the things they couldn't say to each other they said to the dog. Edit: Which is to say that people have already had ample time to consider the meaning behind the dog. A Dirty Sock fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 15:58
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OldPueblo posted:Well that backfired on me. Not really, it resulted in something interesting. How's Japan looking? Has Knifehead-Kun totally melted down at this point?
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Aug 9, 2013 16:24
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OldPueblo posted:Well that backfired on me. Nah, this discussion's been much more interesting than continuing arguments on the facist/nazi/racist/feminist/whateverist interpretations of the movie and its "message." I've actually been paying attention for once. By the way everyone, remember: China's got some sort of dispute going on with the movie industry; I don't think foreign companies have been getting their 20% of the profits. Bad news for Pacific Rim in that case; here's hoping Japan makes quite a bit.
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Aug 9, 2013 16:43
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Responding positively to fascist themes does not mean you politically support the Third Reich. The cultural aspects of fascism (and also the political ones) are hugely popular with humans. It is not a big deal.
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Aug 9, 2013 16:45
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A Dirty Sock posted:Don't feel bad. del Toro and Beacham straight out stated that the dog was there for the Hansens to communicate through since they were so bad at talking to each other. All the things they couldn't say to each other they said to the dog. In fact, Robert Kazinsky (kinda jokingly) has complained about his lack of scenes without the dog. http://herocomplex.latimes.com/movies/true-blood-actor-robert-kazinsky-talks-genre-pacific-rim-role/#/0 quote:HC: Whose idea was the bulldog? As for the Japanese release, still no news. Its first day should be mostly wrapped up by now though, so it'll be interesting to see how the homeland of the mecha genre compares to its next door neighbour. Also curious if Del Toro has seen the Tetsujin 28 statue, since he's now definitely been to the Gundam exhibition.
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Aug 9, 2013 16:46
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Dessel posted:I tried searching the thread, but wasn't it kind of obvious that Mako's father was the co-pilot of Coyte Tango with Stacker and her father dying in that battle we saw in the flashback. Well, apparently not according to the wiki. Meh. I felt it was being alluded to constantly. Would've made perfect sense why Stacker took such a fatherly role and why Mako accepted it. I think Stacker was one of the original Mk1 pilots. I think it was implicit with only him coming out of the Jaegar plus the pills and (I could be remembering this incorrectly) explicitly he tells Raleigh that the only two pilots that piloted a Jaegar alone and survived were him and Raleigh. Dessel posted:Also, being a terrible person who watches anime, I fully expected (due to Evangelion) the ending to say that "No, wait, you don't need a corpse because those machines are kaijis", even if it wouldn't make sense from logistical standpoint. I kept thinking that Stacker's nosebleeds were extremely fishy, almost as if he was communing with the kaijis himself. While I think that was a side effect of what I mentioned previously, if the film took a direction like Eva that would have been really cool, though it doesn't fit my own reading of the film. EDIT - the name game. The Meat Dimension fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 16:59
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What's the deal with the shoes
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Aug 9, 2013 17:01
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A Dirty Sock posted:Don't feel bad. del Toro and Beacham straight out stated that the dog was there for the Hansens to communicate through since they were so bad at talking to each other. All the things they couldn't say to each other they said to the dog. Is it unacceptable to say people are "media illiterate" if they didn't understand this even when he was literally saying "I love you" to the dog instead of his father?
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Aug 9, 2013 17:35
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PerrineClostermann posted:Nah, this discussion's been much more interesting than continuing arguments on the facist/nazi/racist/feminist/whateverist interpretations of the movie and its "message." I've actually been paying attention for once. This isn't a different argument. It's the same subject about empathy and how people interact with the inhuman and nonhuman. The treatment of Max by his owners can be extrapolated outwards and compared to the treatment of the kaiju by society.
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Aug 9, 2013 17:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This isn't a different argument. It's the same subject about empathy and how people interact with the inhuman and nonhuman. The treatment of Max by his owners can be extrapolated outwards and compared to the treatment of the kaiju by society. A 40 pound domesticated wolf specifically bred over 10,000 years to be man's companion, whose primary behaviors consist waddling around and being cute = 2500 ton extra-dimensional killing machine designed to smash into populated areas and kill everyone. Society should be expected to treat both equally.
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Aug 9, 2013 17:56
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Sugoi Pilot-san posted:I think Stacker was one of the original Mk1 pilots. I think it was implicit with only him coming out of the Jaegar plus the pills and (I could be remembering this incorrectly) explicitly he tells Max that the only two pilots that piloted a Jaegar alone and survived were him and Max. quote:While I think that was a side effect of what I mentioned previously, if the film took a direction like Eva that would have been really cool, though it doesn't fit my own reading of the film.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:03
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:A 40 pound domesticated wolf specifically bred over 10,000 years to be man's companion, whose primary behaviors consist waddling around and being cute = 2500 ton extra-dimensional killing machine designed to smash into populated areas and kill everyone. Society should be expected to treat both equally. Of course not! Kaiju are shown to be much smarter than dogs. They should be treated better.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Of course not! Kaiju are shown to be much smarter than dogs. They should be treated better. When?
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Aug 9, 2013 18:05
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Peruser posted:When? When Newton communicates with them, and discovers that they can (and do) understand such concepts as colonialism and genetics.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:09
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:When Newton communicates with them, and discovers that they can (and do) understand such concepts as colonialism and genetics. I feel that's un-verifiable until someone drifts with a dog. Dog's might just be jerks.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:17
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OldPueblo posted:I feel that's un-verifiable until someone drifts with a dog. Dog's might just be jerks. You're right, I verified by drifting with a cat.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:21
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:Is it unacceptable to say people are "media illiterate" if they didn't understand this even when he was literally saying "I love you" to the dog instead of his father? Only if you consider these people too stupid to be able to learn how to pick up the finer details. We've all had to start from somewhere in learning analysis and words like "illiterate" are too emotionally charged to label people you should be engaging in a conversation with.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:24
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I assert that, when a person is over-awed by natural disaster footage, nobody accuses them of wanting to gently caress tsunamis. That, alone, destroys the 'they're just weather' argument. "In a severe lightning storm, you wanna grab your ankles and stick your butt in the air." - Twister (1996) That also being the movie where the entire plot is about trying to maneuver "Dorothy" into what they refer to as "The Suck Zone."
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Aug 9, 2013 18:32
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Saw the movie. Hyped myself too much before seeing it and thought it was okay. Absolutely hated how the movie revolved mostly around Gipsy Danger and Crimson Typhoon and Cherno Alpha died like five minutes after their introduction. If anything this movie needed a final battle with every Jaeger alive and a cheesy, underlying "power of teamwork" mentality. Replace Striker Eureka and the portable nuke with Cherno Alpha sacrificing itself in a mushroom cloud and you're golden.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:When Newton communicates with them, and discovers that they can (and do) understand such concepts as colonialism and genetics. Are you sure Newt didn't just extrapolate this from what he saw? It didn't seem like the drift was so much of a conversation as it was flashes of images. Seeing the assembly line etc. and the "masters" could easily have led him to this conclusion, which seems much more likely IMO.
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Aug 9, 2013 19:09
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Newt drifts with a Kaiju, Kaiju is connected to the Hivemind, the Overseers are also connected to the Hivemind, Newt receives the thoughts of the Overseers through this Hivemind interface, SMG takes this to be actual Kaiju thoughts and builds a theory around this. This is akin to watching a remote philosophical debate through a television and believing that the television itself is the one quoting Plato.
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Aug 9, 2013 19:18
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Why are you drawing a sharp distinction between the monsters (kaiju), the hivemind, and the overseers.
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Aug 9, 2013 19:21
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Hungry Bit posted:Saw the movie. Hyped myself too much before seeing it and thought it was okay. I did the same thing but I blame the movie for having too many humans in it and being generally uninteresting but particularly poor pacing/dialogue instead of myself for having expectations that could not realistically be met. cool soundtrack though
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Aug 9, 2013 19:21
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euphronius posted:Why are you drawing a sharp distinction between the monsters (kaiju), the hivemind, and the overseers. Because that's what the film does?
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Aug 9, 2013 19:23
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Sir Kodiak posted:"In a severe lightning storm, you wanna grab your ankles and stick your butt in the air." - Twister (1996) Exactly; that's the opposite of what's going on here. In Twister, characters struggle to anthropomorphze abstract weather phenomena, where here characters use meteorological language to objectify relatively anthropomorphic creatures. (The kaiju are both intelligent and were deliberately given humanlike suitmation proportions.) The Twister characters, with their jerry-rigged tech and emphasis on understanding rather than exploiting, are way more Newton than than the other characters anywho. Compare the scene where Hunt and Paxton enter the glowing eye of an F5 tornado to the scene where the glowing tongue reaches out to Newton. In Twister, it's the climax, but in Pacific Rim, Gipsy Danger interrupts, provokes a fight, and the film keeps going for another half hour.
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Aug 9, 2013 19:27
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