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Van Dine posted:Maybe they could. When Hinata was impressed by her working out the code, Nanami said "Being a gamer has nothing to do with it. It's just... you either figure out the hidden message or you don’t". That could be read as Nanami simply over-estimating the abilities of a non-gamer, but I took it to mean that it's entirely possible for a person who isn't an experienced gamer to guess the code. Puzzles, brain-teasers, ciphers, and codes do exist outside of video games, after all.
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Aug 16, 2013 16:46
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Van Dine posted:Maybe they could. When Hinata was impressed by her working out the code, Nanami said "Being a gamer has nothing to do with it. It's just... you either figure out the hidden message or you don’t". That could be read as Nanami simply over-estimating the abilities of a non-gamer, but I took it to mean that it's entirely possible for a person who isn't an experienced gamer to guess the code. I think that what the writers are trying to get at here is that in the 'game of survival' set on this island, the most perceptive people 'win' regardless of what their 'Super High School Level' abilities are. It just so happens that in Nanami's case, her talent means that she's had a bit more practice at noticing important details. Since I'm fairly certain everyone agrees by now that Kuzuryuu was the first person to 'clear' the game, I'll go ahead and say that the 'Twilight Syndrome' game is intended to split its players into those, like Nanami and Kuzuryuu, who can realize that there must be a way to play the missing days, the message at the end must contain a clue as to how to access them, and how to interpret the clue, and players like Hinata, who don't see the connection, give up and stop thinking about it. This fits in with situation from DR1 where Togami, Kirigiri, and Celes were the ones who could notice case-breaking details, effectively redirect suspicion onto others, and take an active role during the trials and the rest who were along for the ride, though that doesn't stop them from trying like Asahina did in DR1, Case 4, and failing (her trick was easier to see through than Celes'). Naegi only reaches above the others because Kirigiri and Togami reveal their thoughts to him and basically force him to start thinking things through. (Being the suspect of the first crime certainly helped that process get started too.) I have to say this doesn't bode well for Hinata as this puts him at the level of Naegi in that he isn't the first one to reach the right conclusion and has to catch up to the logic of the 'better players' before he can reach the truth. Based on the meta-logic that the writers are going to mirror cases from DR1, I think Hinata and Nanami are going to wind up facing off against each other eventually (and it will probably be somewhere around the endgame I reckon, since that setup might make whatever happens afterwards feel boring by way of comparison) like Naegi and Kirigiri did in DR1, Case 5, but this time it isn't going end with both of them surviving. I'll leave you guys to figure out what I expect will happen with Kuzuryuu in a later case, based on the same 'similar but subverted' logic.
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Aug 16, 2013 22:42
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I'm sure it's Sonia who did it. For one thing the wetsuit is incriminating, as it would hide the blood better than attempting to wash it off would likely do. For another, if she were in the beach house to do the murder she could have seen Peko pass by, and the water bottles may have been used, as some have already noted, as a means to incriminate her. Else, they may have been an attempted method of cleaning off that failed, thus necessitating the wetsuit. After all, getting blood on any fabric for even a short time is highly unlikely to be fully cleaned with water alone. Then again, I haven't tested that with bathing suits, so, maybe not. Also, all that talk about Kirakira chan is not making her look any less suspicious to me, though I can't put my finger on why she'd try that angle if she were the murderer. Again, we also don't know where she came from, whether the beach house or elsewhere. It seems simpler to me for her to have changed at the beach house. Wait, new theory. Maybe she was changing there and was a witness to our Kirakira chan? But no, that's stupid, she'd say she saw it happen if that were the case. Unless she's too enamoured with the prospect of meeting her hero? I don't know, but, all in all, Peko just doesn't seem like the right person. I can't quite quantify why, but I just feel like there's a lot of missing evidence for her. I mean, why use the bat when she was swimming with her kendo shinai? Or why not hide the bat in the bag with her shinai? Then again, what if she did use her shinai and the bat is a red herring she made, much like all the other ones planted in the beach house? UGH. I can't decide yet. There's just too much we don't know. For example, what's with the whole window thing? Is that really how the murderer got out? Wouldn't they have needed help or some kind of as of yet undiscovered tool or technique? I mean, neither Sonia nor Peko or the obvious suspects of Kuzuryuu and Saionji have been established as being capable of getting out that way on their own yet, so I just don't even think I could say with certainty that any of them could have committed the murder and escaped that way.
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Aug 16, 2013 22:44
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I was asked by a mysterious moderator to share these pictures with y'all (crossposted from the PYF cosplay thread): 
TurboC fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 04:25
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This just in: Lowtax is Monobear and Monomi is Slowbeef. The pay wall made purely as a means to spread despair across the internet. Togami had to die for having enough money to bypass the pay wall.
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Aug 17, 2013 04:37
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That Mahiru is pretty good!
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Aug 17, 2013 04:49
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[redacted]
Skunkrocker fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Aug 17, 2013 05:01
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Gundam doesn't look pissed, he looks absolutely perplexed at the size of his chicken mcnugget.
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Aug 17, 2013 06:16
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I'm assuming the lack of Nidai is purely because you don't have somebody built enough to do it. That or geta are hard to find.
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Aug 17, 2013 06:34
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Not that I really did it in the first place but I now have to sit out speculation for some future point because I seriously just got DR2 spoilers flash-cut into the middle of an Evangelion AMV.  gently caress. TUMBLR.
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Aug 17, 2013 06:56
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AmiYumi posted:Not that I really did it in the first place but I now have to sit out speculation for some future point because I seriously just got DR2 spoilers flash-cut into the middle of an Evangelion AMV. The lesson here is to not watch AMV's. Just stop. They are awful by nature. As to the case, I just can't figure out how Kirakira is supposed to figure into it. Sonia is the only one who cares about Kirakira and she isn't an idiot, so it would be very strange for her to be the killer and claim it was really the serial killer. But again, no one else gives two shits about Kirakira so why would any of them try to pin it on him? Does there just so happen to be a secret serial killer among the students a second time? That sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. If not for the drat mask it would be easy enough to just say it was Peko and call it a day.
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Aug 17, 2013 07:08
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ApplesandOranges posted:I'm assuming the lack of Nidai is purely because you don't have somebody built enough to do it. If anime fans cared about matching body types on their cosplays then I'm sure there would be a lot more Togamis.
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Aug 17, 2013 07:39
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I'm pretty sure Peko is the murderer. We don't exactly have a clear motive besides her just wanting to get off the island (there's usually more to it than simply wanting to escape), but I'm sure the game is involved somehow. We know that certain people have played the game, but do we know if Peko played it? Maybe she did and decided to do the whole justice thing and kill Koizumi and that's why the KiraKira mask is there. Also, the only way the murderer could have escaped is through the window, unless it was actually Saionji who did it. So, how exactly could anyone reach the window when it's so high up? People mentioning Peko's shinai got me thinking. What if she tied something to the shinai and used it almost as a grappling hook? There are bars on the window, so she could use the shinai to get caught on the bars and lift herself up. There was casting net in the closet so maybe she tied that to the shinai and used it to lift herself up. I'm not sure how plausible this is, but it's at least a theory about how the killer could escape through the window.
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Aug 17, 2013 07:47
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lambj3 posted:I'm pretty sure Peko is the murderer. We don't exactly have a clear motive besides her just wanting to get off the island (there's usually more to it than simply wanting to escape), but I'm sure the game is involved somehow. We know that certain people have played the game, but do we know if Peko played it? Maybe she did and decided to do the whole justice thing and kill Koizumi and that's why the KiraKira mask is there. If she lifted herself up to the window by a rope tied to the bars, she wouldn't be able to remove the bars from the window to go through.
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Aug 17, 2013 08:10
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She couldn't have tossed the shinai through the window's bars because it's a window. It'd just bounce off the glass. Even if that wasn't there, the bars aren't fixed, so she'd just pull them right off, helping no one. That window is literally the sole reason this case needs an accomplice. The evidence bullet for it even specifically says "The lone window in the shower room. It opens easily, but it’s so high up that the only way to reach it is by standing on someone’s shoulders." As for how the person who did the lifting would get out, maybe the other person threw a rope into the room or something. CandyCrazy fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 08:32
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If there was an accomplice how did they get out? They would be stuck in the beach house. That's why I don't think there was one. Assuming the killer was Peko (I'm sticking with this because I'm fairly positive it is her), the only accomplice I could see her having would be Kuzuryuu. He's the only person who would have anything to gain from being an accomplice (revenge on Koizumi for his sister). It wasn't Saionji because I think the lemon gummy points to her being framed. Peko would've had to go straight to the diner from the beach house because she was still wet. According to that timeline, if Kuzuryuu was her accomplice then he would've had to appear at the diner either soon before or after her. However, Hinata and Souda saw Kuzuryuu walking past the diner before they even saw Saionji. Of course this is all assuming Kuzuryuu was the accomplice, but like I said I don't really see it being anyone else if there was one. The only other thing I can think of is that Kuzuryuu pulled Koizumi to the tunnel side door as he exited through it. But then again, it says that Koizumi was crawling (do we know if that's definite?). But that would still mean that Peko had to get out by herself.
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Aug 17, 2013 08:49
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lambj3 posted:
According to Tsukimi, Koizumi died instantly. Someone would have had to position her, so the fact that you couldn't get out from that door is vital to the killer's plan.
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Aug 17, 2013 09:06
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If you need to explain how the accomplice got out, then you don't need an accomplice in the first place because the killer could have gotten out that way instead of needing to use the window. Either Saionji is the accomplice or no one is.
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Aug 17, 2013 09:12
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maketakunai posted:Extreme happiness over playing video games to "no I don't want to play them I'm terrible"? You guys harping on this are on the wrong track. Mikan's not happy about the video game. If she wasn't a nurse already her talent would be Super High School Level Social Anxiety, she's basically a wad of crippling issues on legs. She's happy that someone is voluntarily spending time with her and appears to be enjoying themselves. They could be kneecapping deadbeats for the mob and she would probably still be ecstatic.
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Aug 17, 2013 09:13
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"Losing before you know what's happening" is also kinda the gimmick of the game, but would a first time player be able to figure out something like a title-screen cheat code?
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lambj3 posted:Also, the only way the murderer could have escaped is through the window, unless it was actually Saionji who did it. I still think there's at least a slim chance that the murderer could have left using Saionji's footprints and not used the window at all. Saionji wears predictable things, and someone could have brought and worn shoes that looked like hers and carefully left while stepping in the prints. Maybe they could have planned to leave a false trail if Saionji hadn't left by the beach side door. Saionji is likely to have the smallest feet out of everyone there, but it could still be possible for someone with slightly larger feet to manage a short distance in sandals that size. It looks as if the killer planned ahead and this wasn't an impulsive murder. They brought gummies, and they may have sent a fake letter, and they must have known that Koizumi would be there at that time. Sandals wouldn't be out of the question. If the killer hid somewhere in the building and only moved Koizumi's body over to block the door after Kuzuryuu and Saionji had come in and seen the body (with Saionji panicking and running out over the sand) then they might have been able to escape that way. Downsides to this theory are that the footprints would probably be at least a bit deeper after the killer walked in them, and that the killer would have been taking a big risk by staying in the building long enough for two witnesses to come in and see the body. But perhaps the killer didn't expect them to come by right then, and they didn't have a choice. I have trouble imagining a murderer with an accomplice in this case, unless the accomplice was Komaeda, and he would be a dull choice for that. ArdentGamer posted:I don't know, but, all in all, Peko just doesn't seem like the right person. I can't quite quantify why, but I just feel like there's a lot of missing evidence for her. I mean, why use the bat when she was swimming with her kendo shinai? Or why not hide the bat in the bag with her shinai? Then again, what if she did use her shinai and the bat is a red herring she made, much like all the other ones planted in the beach house? If Peko's the killer and she used a sword for the murder, it still makes some sense for her to plant a plausible weapon at the scene. Otherwise, people would be looking for the real murder weapon, and a girl with her sword constantly strapped to her back would tend to look suspicious. Taking the bat with her and putting it in the bag with her sword would be to run an incredibly stupid risk, because the moment someone said "Hey, Peko, we want to check your sword for any traces of blood. Open the bag." or some such, she'd be caught.
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Aug 17, 2013 09:14
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tentawesome posted:According to Tsukimi, Koizumi died instantly. Someone would have had to position her, so the fact that you couldn't get out from that door is vital to the killer's plan. Oh right, I forgot about the instant death thing. So maybe Peko had to use the water bottles to clean the blood off herself not because she got blood on her killing Koizumi but because she moved the body in front of the door. I'm thinking she did it to force Saionji to have to exit where she would leave footprints.
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Aug 17, 2013 09:19
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lambj3 posted:If there was an accomplice how did they get out? They would be stuck in the beach house. That's why I don't think there was one.  1000 words etc
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Aug 17, 2013 09:34
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If the window was simply impassible, then there would be no reason to focus on it. If the window wasn't important, they could just say that the bars were fixed in place. The killer definitely left through that window, though the method isn't clear yet. Also, Saionji is innocent simply because she was the first to be accused. Peko accuses Saionji. Everyone agrees. Case closed! Most if not all of the evidence bullets still need to be used.
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Aug 17, 2013 11:58
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but has it been established that the murder actually took place at the beach house, or just that the body was found there? Perhaps the killer moved the corpse to set up an "unsolvable murder". A similar thing did happen in Chapter 2 of the last game.
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Aug 17, 2013 12:03
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Kay Kessler posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but has it been established that the murder actually took place at the beach house, or just that the body was found there? Perhaps the killer moved the corpse to set up an "unsolvable murder". A similar thing did happen in Chapter 2 of the last game. The blood pattern seems to suggest that Mahiru died there and I'd imagine it'd be a colossal pain in the rear end to move the body there if she died elsewhere.
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Aug 17, 2013 12:08
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Also, even if the time of death was incorrect (which we have no reason to believe is the case) the killer would still have needed to get away from the beach house during the same time frame. I'm afraid I don't see how whacking someone in the head in an unlocked building constitutes an unsolvable murder.
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Aug 17, 2013 12:27
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Assuming the supermarket is basically a one-stop shop for every plot device, why couldn't a killer just use a rope instead of an accomplice to get through the window? Tie it down somehow outside, toss it up through the window, then walk in through the door and whack Koizumi over the head. Granted, there's still the question of how you smuggle a decent-sized length of rope to, and from, the beach house, but the same question can be asked of how they got the bat there in the first place. edit: Huh, somehow missed lambj3's post  .
Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 13:37
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lambj3 posted:People mentioning Peko's shinai got me thinking. What if she tied something to the shinai and used it almost as a grappling hook? I think people are confusing shinai with boken. A shinai's 'blade' is a bundle of four or so long narrow bamboo slats (tournament ones use four I believe but they do occasionally appear with slightly different configurations). The purpose of this is to simulate some of the heft and balance of an actual sword, without creating as much real danger for kendo practitioners. Shinai are made to be flexible (the name shinai is literally based off the verb 'to flex', thanks wikipedia!), so that they bend on striking or split on thrusting, and are not particularly strong, at least not so strong you could use one as described. Probably. A boken, on the other hand, is a literal wooden sword, and used to be used for kendo until the shinai replaced it. While not sharp, it's solid, has some significant weight to it, and can cause serious injury, which is why the shinai replaced it in kendo. One of the tools of choice for stereotypical Japanese street toughs, as it's one of the most dangerous things you can carry openly there without violating the law. Essentially, I highly doubt Peko could rappel up the wall using a shinai as a grappling hook. It would bend or break as it was designed to under high stress. Of course, we don't actually know what's in her carrying case. Or if the case itself could have served that purpose.
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Aug 17, 2013 15:24
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Oh my GOD I just loving love Tanaka's voice. I could listen to him all day. 
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Aug 17, 2013 17:14
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tiistai posted:
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Aug 17, 2013 21:48
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ApplesandOranges posted:I'm assuming the lack of Nidai is purely because you don't have somebody built enough to do it. I can't believe those mods didn't get Shine in on this. 
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Aug 17, 2013 22:34
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Who would Peko's accomplice be if not a threatened Saionji, though? We did have an accomplice in case three last time, but it was made abundantly clear beforehand that he was unhealthily devoted to culprit. I guess Nagito could do it but that would be sortof lame.
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Aug 17, 2013 23:32
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To all of my fellow posters who still believe that there was no accomplice in this case, I state the golden rule of investigation games: All pieces of evidence that are collected must be used at least once during the 'solution' phase of the case or else they have no reason to exist (obligatory pieces such as possessions of the investigator or non-descript autopsy reports are rare exceptions). Furthermore, any expanded descriptive details (that aren't just for laughs, coz' Ace Attorney) always have relevance and are often the reason behind said evidence's existence. Therefore, when the evidence bullet states 'the only way to reach it is by standing on someone's shoulders', it means that at some point, somebody stood on someone else's shoulders to reach it, end of story. If a tool was used to reach it, then the evidence bullet would have said 'the only way to reach it is by using a tool of some kind' instead. Since the game has directed us away from this path, it goes against the rules of fair-play investigation to say, 'This piece of evidence explicitly says this, but what it really meant to say is this other thing that could have been stated more directly'. For as much as DR loves to throw important evidence in from left field, it, like any other fair-play whodunnit, always foreshadows important evidence or it will foreshadow the need to create evidence in the spur of the moment (DR1, Case 2). It hasn't, to my memory at least, ever pulled a Christie and said, 'You need to interpret the evidence in this obscure, mental twist of logic, way'. (If it has, then someone please point out where to me.) Also, let's dismiss the idea that the killer left through the front door once and for all. If the killer left through the front door after killing Koizumi, either they used a complicated tool to pull Koizumi's body to the door, in that position, which left no evidence behind, or one of either Saionji or Kuzuryuu (who I'm pegging as the two witnesses until someone presents evidence to override me) deliberately set-up her body in front of the door, leaving Kuzuryuu to get out of the window by himself and Saionji to flee from the back door leaving evidence of her presence behind, and would also get one of them with clothes covered in blood which wouldn't be washed off with water so easily and would have been noticed by somebody. Since we have no traces of either happening and no evidence bullets regarding how to do so without leaving a trace, it didn't happen unless further notice comes in the form of evidence that comes completely out of left field during the trial.
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Aug 17, 2013 23:37
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Who would Peko's accomplice be if not a threatened Saionji, though? If Peko was Kuzuryuu's accomplice, that would explain her shifting the blame onto Saionji. She would be protecting the both of them, not just some unrelated party. EDIT: Not Nidai. Totally copied the wrong name. Suspicious Cook fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 23:41
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If Kuzuryuu is the accomplice then him and Peko helping each other out the window doesn't fit the timeline of events because he was seen by Souda and Hinata at the diner so much earlier. He would've had to leave sooner, leaving Peko to get out through the window alone. I don't see Saionji being an accomplice because I think she's too short to be able to reach the window, even on someone else's shoulders. But even if she could reach, it's still not very plausible. If she was on top, she's probably too weak to be able to lift the other person up out of the window. She's also probably too weak to be able to lift someone else herself. You're also looking at it being unlikely because of the timeline since Saionji was seen right after Kuzuryuu. She wouldn't have been able to help Peko out the window since she was seen way before Peko. So either the accomplice is someone else or there isn't one. Who else would be the accomplice? Of course this is if Peko is actually the killer. But again, she's the only person I can think of who has any sort of logical way to get out through the window alone. Also, I don't think that just because of what the evidence bullet says that necessarily means it had to happen that way. I took it as that's just the games way of saying how high the window is. lambj3 fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 00:48
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LukanFox posted:To all of my fellow posters who still believe that there was no accomplice in this case, I state the golden rule of investigation games: All pieces of evidence that are collected must be used at least once during the 'solution' phase of the case or else they have no reason to exist (obligatory pieces such as possessions of the investigator are rare exceptions).  LukanFox posted:Therefore, when the evidence bullet states 'the only way to reach it is by standing on someone's shoulders', it means that at some point, somebody stood on someone else's shoulders to reach it, end of story. LukanFox posted:Also, let's dismiss the idea that the killer left through the front door once and for all. If the killer left through the front door after killing Koizumi, Kuzuryuu/Saionji scenarios. Of course, if that scenario were the truth, that'd mean Mikan's "Koizumi was hit from behind, and died an instant death" was mistaken or a lie, and the window evidence would be unnecessary unless it were used for some other point. Maybe someone entered via the window to avoid being spotted by a hiding Saionji while they waited for Koizumi? The possibility was even entertained by Hinata. "There's a window over there. It seems pretty big - I think a person could slip through it. Not that it really matters. Why would anyone want to enter the beach house that way?" How does the murderer even know the window was openable, anyways? It's got those steel bars on it that appeared to be fixed in place, and took two people to even confirm that they weren't. vvv er, yeah, that of course 
maketakunai fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 00:53
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LukanFox posted:Therefore, when the evidence bullet states 'the only way to reach it is by standing on someone's shoulders', it means that at some point, somebody stood on someone else's shoulders to reach it, end of story. Nope - It can also be used to disprove someone elses case, eg "Nidai could have done it and escaped out the window!" Present Evidence - Window "Nope, need to be 15 ft high for that, fool." Plus, evidence can be updated during the trial, so if someone shows off some cool hookshot toy or whatever, bam.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:02
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LukanFox posted:To all of my fellow posters who still believe that there was no accomplice in this case, I state the golden rule of investigation games: All pieces of evidence that are collected must be used at least once during the 'solution' phase of the case or else they have no reason to exist (obligatory pieces such as possessions of the investigator or non-descript autopsy reports are rare exceptions). Furthermore, any expanded descriptive details (that aren't just for laughs, coz' Ace Attorney) always have relevance and are often the reason behind said evidence's existence. You're ignoring the first rule of Dangan Ronpa though: evidence is used to contradict what other people are saying in the trial. They added the new "I concur!" mechanic, but fundamentally the game is about other characters saying stupid things and you proving them wrong. So while I agree with your basic point that any other way to get out the window is off the table, you yourself are missing the fact that maybe no one went out the window at all. All we need is someone to say "maybe they went out the window by themselves" and then we can bring up the window evidence and BAM, disproven. It may or may not go into a side argument about whether they had an accomplice, but to serve its purpose the evidence only needs to be used as disproof, not proof.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:07
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Who would Peko's accomplice be if not a threatened Saionji, though? We did have an accomplice in case three last time, but it was made abundantly clear beforehand that he was unhealthily devoted to culprit. I guess Nagito could do it but that would be sortof lame. I'd say that the timing of Kuzuryuu's appearance at the diner (pretty much right after the murder happened) and his panicked behaviour at the time convince me that he is the culprit. If Saionji was forced into being an accomplice, she would turn on the culprit at the very first opportunity to do so, rather than waiting until the middle of the trial or not all. After all, if nobody learns who the culprit is and they vote for someone else in the trial, she will get executed for keeping her mouth shut. If she knew who the murderer was (the mask could hide a face but not a body shape and there's no evidence for how that could be hidden from her, well, not yet at least), she would tell the others as soon as the culprit wasn't holding a bat over her head and there were plenty of opportunities to do so during the investigation phase. As for Kuzuryuu, not only is there the issue of getting revenge for his sister's death (he definitely still held it against her as evidenced by the letter in the photo folder), but thinking back to the set-up of the first case and his conversation with Togami, it was hinted at that he might be prepared to be executed as a quick way out. Not that this is proof positive, I just think that it makes more sense for him than for Saionji.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:16
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On top of all the very good points about the nature of evidence in this game, there's also the fact that in Twilight Syndrome, the case pivoted on the killer pretending to escape through a window, when they actually got away through an allegedly inaccessible door. I think it's too early to say who really killed Koizumi (besides "not Saionji"), but if it turns out that anyone actually went through that window in connection with the crime, I'll be surprised.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:20
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