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Yo, so who's going to the Fall Classic in September?
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Aug 20, 2013 21:19
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HoboWithAShotgun posted:gently caress, he's annoying to listen to. Is he legit autistic or something. Others say focused.
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Aug 20, 2013 21:23
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Roguelike posted:Juicebox is streaming the King of Fighters beta. So far, the netcode doesn't look so good. (Sorry, I'd check myself but it's not convenient at the moment)
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Aug 20, 2013 21:26
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I really like the central idea of Divekick. Well, I like the central idea of fighting games in general, in that there is competition happening between two players. Done right, it's an amazing thing. Done wrong it's actively the least fun you can have with an entertainment system. I like players using their character's moves to try to outwit their opponent. I don't like the way most fighting games go about making that happen, especially in ''''high-level'''' play. I am not a fan of touch-of-death combos, or the things that come pretty loving close enough that it barely matters unless you also know one, because at that point if the game is designed around figuring out and memorising combos like that you might as well have just made the basic attacks do tons of damage already. Divekick to me seems entirely about that idea of a fighting game I love so much, along with being the ultimate conclusion of the thing I just said about combos (flawed as it may be).
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Aug 20, 2013 21:33
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Mejwell posted:Who's he playing with? There haven't been more than 30 people on worldwide all day, so if he's playing with dudes in the UK that might be understandable, but if it's other CA (he is in CA right?) people that's pretty grim. He's in Arizona. The first few people he played were from Japan/Mexico but he found a guy in the beta from Norcal and claims the connection is 'playable' and that it's better then it is on consoles.
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Aug 20, 2013 21:40
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Hbomberguy posted:I really like the central idea of Divekick. Well, I like the central idea of fighting games in general, in that there is competition happening between two players. Done right, it's an amazing thing. Done wrong it's actively the least fun you can have with an entertainment system. I like players using their character's moves to try to outwit their opponent. I don't like the way most fighting games go about making that happen, especially in ''''high-level'''' play. The worst thing that can happen to a competitive game is to be completely figured out. When you have something as barebones as Divekick you run a high risk of that actually happening. I suspect that with kick factor and headshots being what they are every match is going to be a 5-0 pretty soon. The thing about combos is that combo execution is very rarely what separates good players from really good players, so the scare quotes around "high-level" really aren't necessary. And in games like SF4 where 1 frame links are so important, people do indeed complain about it; certainly very few people play SF4 because they like doing combos.
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Aug 20, 2013 21:46
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I could go into why I don't think Divekick will end up a deep game and not nearly as meaningful as even as SF2 but that would be a long boring post so just pretend I wrote paragraphs on decision trees here okay.
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Aug 20, 2013 21:48
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It wouldn't really be boring... just write it!
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Aug 20, 2013 21:51
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Just a heads up that KOF Steam dropped $5 and early adopters got screwed out of $5. Might want to contact Steam if you bought it earlier.
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Aug 20, 2013 21:58
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Asses akimbo, that's gotta be some sort of mistake or misunderstanding, I can't possibly believe they would willingly gently caress over people like that. Has there ever been any precedent for this?
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Aug 20, 2013 22:06
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Mejwell posted:Asses akimbo, that's gotta be some sort of mistake or misunderstanding, I can't possibly believe they would willingly gently caress over people like that. Has there ever been any precedent for this? Remember that game you bought the day before the steam sale? The Iphone dropped in price from $600 to $400 after a single month because Apple knew that devotees would buy it before then, but the masses would bristle at the original price. If someone emails them and gets a refund let me know, I'm at work and not going to bother without a successful trip report. Frankly snk can have my $5 if it means kof14 exists. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Aug 20, 2013 |
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Aug 20, 2013 22:09
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There's a difference between a game going on sale after a period of time and a game that hasn't even been released yet having it's price dropped.
Mejwell fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Aug 20, 2013 |
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Aug 20, 2013 22:11
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Jeffrey posted:If someone emails them and gets a refund let me know, I'm at work and not going to bother without a successful trip report. Frankly snk can have my $5 if it means kof14 exists. I just sent in a ticket for a refund/re-order or $5 credited back to me, I'll update when I get a response.
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Aug 20, 2013 22:12
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Redmark posted:The worst thing that can happen to a competitive game is to be completely figured out. When you have something as barebones as Divekick you run a high risk of that actually happening. I suspect that with kick factor and headshots being what they are every match is going to be a 5-0 pretty soon. You make a good point, but only if the game in question has a very obvious way of winning easily and consistently, which not all games do. If a player figures out how to completely break the game over their knee and make it not fun for anyone to play, (which isn't entirely the fault of the game, is it?), the game itself could probably have been designed a little better. My favourite fighting game, or at least my favourite game in which you try to outwit and defeat your opponent in single combat, is Dark Souls PVP. Even if the opponent has figured out the worst, most rear end in a top hat-y methods of winning, there is always a way to outwit someone and gain the upper hand. I don't mean to be reductionist, I'm absolutely sure that's a thing people can do in more traditional fighting games, but that's something I'll probably personally never be able to do because I can't slow down the flow of time far enough to pose enough of a challenge to a decent player. So I guess my main criticism of general fighting games is 'I'm not very good at them', but there's something excruciating about being made to watch yourself lose almost in slow motion, because someone else memorised a longer combo, and thus their hits are worth more when they actually land and you have to sit and watch it play out every time they get a successful hit in. That's why Nidhogg and Divekick seem so appealing to me. All of their elements and mechanics just scream 'fight or die, right now.' In normal fighting games, which require such high levels of focus to properly get into, getting caught up in a combo, even an incredibly short one, still feels like the most painfully slow seconds of my life in which my only strategic choices are 'hope they gently caress up and drop the combo, and hold block in case that helps maybe.'
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Aug 20, 2013 22:35
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Divekick is fun because it is in essence Fireball War The Game but with a buncha types of fireballs
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Aug 20, 2013 22:43
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You could, like, practice until you can do a combo.
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Aug 20, 2013 22:45
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Jeffrey posted:Frankly snk can have my $5 if it means kof14 exists. Well SNK is hiring 3D modelers at the moment. People flipped their poo poo when the job posting first went up earlier in the year but we now live in a post Xrd world so who knows.
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Aug 20, 2013 22:52
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just a butt posted:Well SNK is hiring 3D modelers at the moment. People flipped their poo poo when the job posting first went up earlier in the year but we now live in a post Xrd world so who knows. Their current sprites are actually rotoscopped 3D models. Hiring 3D people doesnt necessarilly mean theyre switching to 3d models.
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Aug 20, 2013 23:01
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Redmark posted:The worst thing that can happen to a competitive game is to be completely figured out. Uh, I think MvC2 would like a word with you 
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Aug 20, 2013 23:07
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TheTofuShop posted:Uh, I think MvC2 would like a word with you There are more degrees of freedom than character selection, though. quote:I don't mean to be reductionist, I'm absolutely sure that's a thing people can do in more traditional fighting games, but that's something I'll probably personally never be able to do because I can't slow down the flow of time far enough to pose enough of a challenge to a decent player. So I guess my main criticism of general fighting games is 'I'm not very good at them', but there's something excruciating about being made to watch yourself lose almost in slow motion, because someone else memorised a longer combo, and thus their hits are worth more when they actually land and you have to sit and watch it play out every time they get a successful hit in.
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Aug 20, 2013 23:26
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Divekick looks like it'd be a pretty great party fighter, but I really can't see it getting any real competitive following. You're not going to see a whole lot of surprises in terms of how matches turn out due to the overall simplicity, so watching it can get boring very quickly. It's on my wishlist for when I'm not poor, though.
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Aug 20, 2013 23:33
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Gutcruncher posted:Their current sprites are actually rotoscopped 3D models. Hiring 3D people doesnt necessarilly mean theyre switching to 3d models. You're nuts if you expect SNKP to do KOF 12/13 style sprites ever again. Especially with the current president. Personally I'm all for Xrd-style graphics for KOF if doesn't take them 7 years and 150% of their budget just to make the graphics of a half-complete game. Maybe KOF 14 will actually be really drat good without so much development time and resources wasted on sprites.
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Aug 20, 2013 23:51
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Hbomberguy posted:My favourite fighting game, or at least my favourite game in which you try to outwit and defeat your opponent in single combat, is Dark Souls PVP. Even if the opponent has figured out the worst, most rear end in a top hat-y methods of winning, there is always a way to outwit someone and gain the upper hand. So it's the same as any good fighting game? P.S. Dark Souls has execution requirements too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P62BetS1m8Q You are at a significant disadvantage if you can't at least ring swap. Much like how, I don't know, you are at a significant disadvantage if you can't do a combo in a fighting game?!?!?! 
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Aug 21, 2013 00:39
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Brosnan posted:You could, like, practice until you can do a combo. Nah I just want to be good at everything without having to practice.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:22
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Snacksmaniac posted:Nah I just want to be good at everything without having to practice. I know you're being sarcastic, but that's legit why 99% of people who don't already play fighters are getting Divekick. Because they think that without combos or whatever, they won't have to practice to be good and everybody can realize their true strategic genius out of the gate.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:28
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If they were a strategic genius and can't combo, they'd still be pro at super turbo. I think you're right, except for the people who like to watch pro fighting games but aren't good at them. I think it's cool they can play the game they've watched on the streams like the pros do.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:32
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Broken Loose posted:I know you're being sarcastic, but that's legit why 99% of people who don't already play fighters are getting Divekick. Because they think that without combos or whatever, they won't have to practice to be good and everybody can realize their true strategic genius out of the gate. Well, that and the vomit inducing amount of injokes.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:32
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whalestory posted:It wouldn't really be boring... just write it! You don't need to know any actual info. All you need to know is that he knows it.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:37
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Babylon Astronaut posted:If they were a strategic genius and can't combo, they'd still be pro at super turbo. I think you're right, except for the people who like to watch pro fighting games but aren't good at them. I think it's cool they can play the game they've watched on the streams like the pros do. There's a ton of brick wall execution checks in ST that aren't really combo related but more "impossibly strict general timing" related.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:37
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Babylon Astronaut posted:If they were a strategic genius and can't combo, they'd still be pro at super turbo. I think you're right, except for the people who like to watch pro fighting games but aren't good at them. I think it's cool they can play the game they've watched on the streams like the pros do. No, but see, super turbo has special moves and if those finger puzzles weren't in the way I'd be able to win! They should make shoryuken into a single button I can press.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:38
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Broken Loose posted:No, but see, super turbo has special moves and if those finger puzzles weren't in the way I'd be able to win! They should make shoryuken into a single button I can press. Didnt SFxT try that with autoblock and 1 button special moves? There were downsides to easy mode gems, what people really want is pure benefits no downsides. Welfare warriors essentially Bad players will always have something to complain about, making things easier wont make them better.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:45
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Anyway I have time so I'll elaborate past my dumb meta joke post. What fighting games are is a wheel of choices. There's like basically thousands of "bad" choices, you kind of figure these out in the first few months. Stuff like not doing wakeup supers all the time, not doing unsafe moves randomly, etc. In Divekick, this kind of discovery doesn't exist. This might be a good or bad thing, but it definitely takes a chunk out of the lifespan of the game. You know how people would play Iceman and be immune to random chip damage, or XF3 Wesker would like trash people because no one knew how good the top tier actually were? This is the sort of phase of the game where people are discovering the real "decision trees" of the game. What a good decision tree ends up being in an essence is you have a series of "right" choices that can be wrong if the other person does the "righter" choice. RPS, essentially. In a fireball vs grappler character kind of game, the RPS at full screen is really basic, but then you get close and your options are like "press sweep to interrupt early fb" "jump in for full combo" "block" "use fireball go through move" "jump straight up" etc, and all of these choices now lead into another DIFFERENT set of choices. In Divekick, since characters have like, 3 moves, usually, the decision tree is this. "backdash" or "jump" -> "wait" "Kick". Repeat. Now, which of these choice is "right" definitely varies on the characters, special moves, and where the other dude is and which of the other choices he made, but in a fighting game, there's so many more options that the tree has more selections, and when you make a selection, the next's tree's selections are all totally different than the last one. In a FG, the choices would change every single time a new move is done or position is gained. The decision tree is so varied that it becomes extremely difficult to even figure out the "right" choices for a few years, then when most of the "right" choice are figured out, you essentially end up with a very, very layed version of RPS where you're trying to make the "right" choice to implement you strategy, but have to change it constantly based on the other guys "right" choices. This really comes down to psychology, and ten the physical nature of the game (execution, reaction). Now that you know that there are way more choices to be made, and it's harder to discover the "right" choices, try and think of taking a trip. Now, every time you hit a fork in the road, you have to choose which way to go. The more choices and the harder they are to make, the more depth the game has. A fighting game takes so long to deconstruct and figure out, that optimally playing the game is akin to figuring out how to get across the entire country with no maps or roadsigns. Divekick is a trip down the road to Wendy's when you're drunk. anime was right fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 02:47
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Fauxtool posted:Bad players will always have something to complain about, making things easier wont make them better. Exactly. Divekick isn't doing any favors for the genre. For a couple dozen hilarious examples of this, try going to the Skullgirls/Skullgirls Beta Steam forums and look at all the threads complaining about "infinite combos" that literally don't exist in the game. The Joke is that even if you took away all the execution in the world, these people would still lose because they're not good and they're not smart. Strategy is something that gets better with practice, too, and these folks hate practicing. VVVVVVVV Mejwell posted:Edit: in the interest of full disclosure I would also like to mention that I also think Skullgirls is obscene, for very different reasons. Broken Loose fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 02:49
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^^^ it was a joke loose lighten up No one I know gives a poo poo about "low execution" of Divekick, they just think it's dumb and hilarious. Me, I think that a retail version of Divekick is pretty much the "Grumpycat Movie" of fighting games, and that $10 for it when you can get Skullgirls for $15 is obscene. Edit: in the interest of full disclosure I would also like to mention that I also think Skullgirls is obscene, for very different reasons. Mejwell fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 02:52
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Redmark posted:The worst thing that can happen to a competitive game is to be completely figured out. When you have something as barebones as Divekick you run a high risk of that actually happening. I suspect that with kick factor and headshots being what they are every match is going to be a 5-0 pretty soon. Headshots followed by an inescapable death next round will become a common thing, but 5 rounds is still plenty of chances to realize what you're doing wrong. First time I played a seth he was also a really good one, I got 5-0'd but was already taking rounds by the second match. Interestingly, even Divekick has (relatively small) execution requirements: Mr. N can kara cancel his kick into float to fake people out, and you can hold float, release dive, hit dive again to do a double jump mid-float. It might be those little things that could give you the edge. That said, my biggest criticism is that all the characters who don't have a normal jump or kick but something else actually takes away from the core concept a little bit. You have to learn how to deal with gimmick characters much like how you'd learn matchups, it's not as straight to mindgames as one would think. For those on the fence, $10 is a good price! People may consider it to have the bare minimum, but if you care about netplay and having a bunch of ppl to play it has GGPO. I really think this is the kind of game that should have a demo though.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:03
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apple posted:For those on the fence, $10 is a good price! People may consider it to have the bare minimum, but if you care about netplay and having a bunch of ppl to play it has GGPO. I really think this is the kind of game that should have a demo though.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:08
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Brett824 posted:The problem with this is that the only context I'd really ever enjoy this game online isn't even available (a lobby with a bunch of friends). That's fair, from my perspective I just wanna get on and kick ppl in the head online every now and then. And drinking games if I have ppl over.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:21
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For anyone who may have contacted Steam about the King of Fighters pricing change, it's been reverted back to the original $25 preorder/$30 retail pricing. I think the most plausible explanation is SNK wanted to drop the price, but didn't realize people who had already preordered had already been charged, and therefore wouldn't receive the new discount, and when they did, they reverted it. Here's hoping we get an explanation.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:25
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Broken Loose posted:I know you're being sarcastic, but that's legit why 99% of people who don't already play fighters are getting Divekick. Because they think that without combos or whatever, they won't have to practice to be good and everybody can realize their true strategic genius out of the gate. Well, don't have to practice combos. There is still a strategy to Divekick, it just doesn't require as much annoying bullshit like hanging in Practice for ages or sitting and waiting for the game to declare you're dead because even though you have half a life bar left the enemy has hit you so you've already lost. If those things have never annoyed you, even if only when you were still new to the game, I don't really know what to say. I have enjoyed Divekick so far. Even when I have lost in the most embarrassing ways like 5-0. There was something to learn from every fight other than what I learn from most matches in Skullgirls, which ironically for this comparison tends to be 'don't get hit by any attacks ever'. Of course it's easy to just say go back to training mode / maybe fighting games aren't for you / just block better / just memorise an equally long combo / the point of the game is making people feel annoyed, and I don't honestly think a game is bad because I happen to not be the best at it. I enjoy the challenge. I'm not asking for an auto-combo button or a comeback mechanic, I like Skullgirls exactly as it is. I just don't enjoy being beaten all the time because I'm not a masochist, and that's the main reason why I keep playing - to get better and make the fight more interesting for both sides. My favourite part of Skullgirls, though, is how the game is played out right before either player actually lands a hit. They are the most fun moments of the game, because both players are in complete control of their characters and are reacting to each other. Divekick is that part of fighting games embodied, and that's what made it so appealing to me. I mostly agree with Waterbed, but having less buttons doesn't immediately give Divekick less depth. I loving love learning to bait your opponent, and seeing them learn not to take it or figure out how to hit you even when you're trying to juke them. This happens in every good fighting game, I'm not pretending this is the only game in which it happens, but my point is it doesn't make the metagame any less fun to play just because it's more stripped-down. I'm under the (possibly mistaken) impression that video games are about fun, and I have had fun playing Divekick. Not very good reasoning, I know, but still. I'd like there to be bigger lobbies though, or spectating at least. Honest question: Are touch of death combos generally frowned upon, and why? Do you enjoy them as a concept? Please describe in your own words.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:28
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If you want a game with shorter combos that plays kinda like Skullgirls, Vampire Savior is free on PC and not much more expensive than Divekick on consoles. This is what high-level Vampire Savior play looks like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEtZzP1cL6g this post brought to you by Tuxedo Catfish, who is totally unbiased re: VSav
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Aug 21, 2013 03:35
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