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Stregone
Sep 1, 2006
Shelby being adorable.

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Stregone
Sep 1, 2006
Almost forgot, the above pics were from after we did some vehicle search practice.

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
To those of you doing SAR, how much of a pain in the rear end is it to get into and how much would I hate myself for doing so? It'll be quite a while before I get another dog, let alone get into anything seriously. But SAR has always piqued my interest. I've heard it's a massive time sink and a ton of work/stress, though. In the future I'm looking to either get a rescue GSD or a Groen (it's all still up in the air, I might just wind up with a border collie, hurr). I'm also curious about trying agility, and perhaps some plain old nosework.

pomme
May 8, 2013
This was taken this weekend at my boyfriend's property. It was late, he was still framing, and we were tired. The black border is my broken camera shutter.

Budworth is turning into an old man. I noticed last year when he turned four that he started to get more cuddly. He still has high amounts of energy but when we got home from this weekend he spent almost two days resting. He is back to being his normal annoying self now though.



WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Skizzles posted:

To those of you doing SAR, how much of a pain in the rear end is it to get into and how much would I hate myself for doing so? It'll be quite a while before I get another dog, let alone get into anything seriously. But SAR has always piqued my interest. I've heard it's a massive time sink and a ton of work/stress, though. In the future I'm looking to either get a rescue GSD or a Groen (it's all still up in the air, I might just wind up with a border collie, hurr). I'm also curious about trying agility, and perhaps some plain old nosework.

If you don't want to go full-blown SAR, but you want a step above nosework, you could look into trailing clubs. I think bloodhound clubs get really into it. I learned about it through CsVs, the club is looking to those trailing competitions to develop a breed survey for CsVs in the future. It uses air scenting like you'd use in SAR, which is much more direct than tracking with the nose to the ground. Or you could even just get into tracking (AKC tracking is more lenient on air scenting than SchH tracking is.)

In the mean time, I got this book when I was first getting interested in SAR stuff. I have to admit I haven't read the whole thing yet, just up to puppy training stuff, then skimmed the rest, but it not only goes into training the dog, but also all the poo poo YOU would have to know about setting search patterns and not getting your rear end lost and stuff. Once I started really thinking about and being honest about that part of it, I knew I'd only ever get into it as a hobby, unless I didn't work or something. I don't multitask well, haha. But the book is awesome for trailing in general, it has all sorts of exercises/games to play with your dog to teach air scenting. :3:

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Man, this is amazing! Someone posted this video in the GSD forums, this dog is trialing for his IPO3, and scored 99 out of 100 points. He is SO happy and clear-headed the whole time, it's so fun to watch! He's a super handsome dog, too:

Stregone
Sep 1, 2006
I finally remembered to record Shelby's nosework practice.
She was remarkably relaxed and calm today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYDQEKgtm04

I have some more but youtube is still processing.
Number 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II4RrWSYbv8

Stregone fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Sep 21, 2013

Pez Rattie
Jan 1, 2010
I'M A DUMB, SNEERY CUNT AND SO IS MY ROOM MATE
Someone just let me know about this thread because I love German Shepherds, am a trainer at my German Shepherd Dog Club and my current plan is to do Search and Rescue as well as explosives detection. I lost my last GSD, a West German Showline, to DM, or Degenerative Myelopathy, and it was heartbreaking. He was frankly too big and not structurally sound as well as being nervy.

After searching rescues for several months, I very carefully chose a breeder for my next puppy, a working line, who was appropriate in size, structure and temperament. A stable strong nerve with the drive that I need out of working and titled parents who were HOT (handler-owner trained) with dogs in the lines who gave specific results i.e. detection and performance.

He has a nice stock coat, biddable with enough independence and already shows a lot of heart. His name is Franklin.

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Your dog is beautiful, thanks for posting!! Would you mind sharing where he's from and/or his pedigree? :haw: I really love looking up dogs and breeders. That is so awesome that you work with your club, too! Do you do all the phases of SchH? Is it a large club, or something smaller? We're still waiting waiting waiting for our dog, but I've done nothing but research in the mean time, and I love getting to read about other people's experiences. :)

Also, I'm so sorry about your last GSD. :( DM is horrible to watch, I had a client with 2 siblings, and the female wound up with DM. I know there are issues with the test and all, but I really feel that the only way to learn more about it is for breeders (and even just owners!) to get their dogs tested and at least use that information a LITTLE when deciding on a pairing. Feel free to post pictures of your West German boy as well! We might rag an awful lot on non-working line dogs, but I honestly feel that the different lines are good for different people. I've also seen some beautiful dogs of ALL types, it all depends on the breeder. I actually considered a West German dog for a while, but it seems like that nervy temperament crops up too often, and I really want the odds to work out for a dog with a rock-solid temperament.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

I'd be curious to hear about the training you do, both with client/club dogs and your own. :)

Pez Rattie
Jan 1, 2010
I'M A DUMB, SNEERY CUNT AND SO IS MY ROOM MATE
It's hard to choose just one picture. My West German Showline, Malloy:





I'm not a small person and at maturity he weighed in at 103 lbs. I will always shy away from oversized/large GSDs and feel sorry to see people breeding for large size.

Now my working line pup out of V Athos von den Wannaer Höhen IPO1 and SG1 Dejavu zu Treuen Händen IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 B/HOT:



I expect him to be no more than 80 lbs, agile and able to navigate obstacles/rubble/etc.

I don't have any personal interest in working my dog in Schutzhund, Ring Sport or PSA though several of my friends do. I train at an AKC sanctioned GSD club. I have done private training for years and my favorite is working with reactive dogs. I am just starting teaching group classes and will be getting the new students usually with reactive dogs in my classes using focus, engagement and building drive/motivation because they aren't ready to join a full class yet. So for the teaching aspect, just straight up "obedience" preparing people to move into regular classes for obedience competition or another sport. I am preparing to teach Nosework at some point and think Triebball looks fun for people. My overall motto is "instead of asking how to get your dog to stop this or that, ask yourself 'what do I want my dog to do instead'. I like 'how to', not 'how not to' training and think of myself as minimally invasive. I have been working with a PSA club in scent work, drive and obedience but I will not be doing the protection aspect. I added explosives detection to my list since I'm able to work with a guy who trained K9s for the Israel military for years and it won't conflict with live/HRD (human remains detection) work.

Pez Rattie fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Oct 9, 2013

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Neat. In my classes, I've yet to see a GSD who didn't have some degree of reactivity. It seems to surprise a lot of novice owners despite the issue being so prevalent in the breed.

I think it's wise to keep the size of the dogs moderate. I really like the appearance of immature GSDs -- they're more slight and finely boned with prettier features. If I had a GSD I'd probably want it to be no more than 65 pounds if at all possible. So good choice on the smaller pup. Hope he turns out the way you want.

Pez Rattie
Jan 1, 2010
I'M A DUMB, SNEERY CUNT AND SO IS MY ROOM MATE
Speaking of 65 lbs, that is the working weight of my pup's mother. This pup is already amazing with the work we've done so far. Socialization has been our priority and his focus is great. His scent work has been awesome too. He is such a serious little guy and he didn't have that cute squishy puppy look for long like the showlines do with their fluffiness and floppy ears. Frankie looked quite serious already at 8 weeks:



I think he is adorable in this picture though and it's probably my favorite:

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

I think you're being too hard on Malloy! He's definitely large and a little off, but when I hear "West German Show" and someone is being critical of their own dog, I'm expecting to see this:



And large dogs like that give the best hugs. :3:

Your pup is absolutely stunning, can't wait to see him grow up! That's so funny and true about working line dogs looking "serious" earlier, I'd never thought of it like that before. Must be something about them being smaller.

So I'm just curious, why aren't you planning on doing the protection phase? Is it something you might change your mind about later on? The club I was looking at tends to lean a lot towards show line dogs, but there was one working line dog the day I went to see them. It was crazy how much more serious and focused the dog was about the work. The best/craziest part is that they said the owner had only recently decided to work in protection, and the dog was already a few years old (I wanna say 3 or 4, but I could be mistaken). I thought it was interesting that there was this dog who hadn't grown up doing bitework showing more drive and seriousness than a bunch of dogs who were raised doing it. I guess the owner had said her dog seemed like he went, "FINALLY!" once he got to start, too, haha. At any rate, it's encouraging to see things like that, so you don't have to feel stuck if you think you don't want to do a sport, but change your mind years later.

Edit:

Hey! Depending on how things go, your dog and my future dog could be related! :dance: Are these the parents?
http://www.zutreuenhanden.com/Deja.htm
http://kulladogs.smugmug.com/Pets/Athos-von-den-Wannaer-H%C3%B6hen/i-vvsq9mF

Your dog's grandsire on his mother's side is V Hannes vom Spadener Holz? That's also the sire of the dog that might end up being the dam of the dog I get. :haw:
http://www.wildhauskennels.com/isis.htm

That's so funny! It's also funny that I actually recognized a dog like that, haha. It all depends on what happens with their litters, if there's something for us at the right time, etc, though. But I have my fingers crossed!

Oh, also, Bill Kulla, the breeder of your sire, is out by me. :) Small world! Are you in the midwest, I'm guessing?

WolfensteinBag fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Oct 10, 2013

Pez Rattie
Jan 1, 2010
I'M A DUMB, SNEERY CUNT AND SO IS MY ROOM MATE
Well, remember that stacking makes for a more extreme looking angulation. However, his mother was extreme even when not stacked. Here were Malloy's parents:

Father: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=130421-carlo-vom-holtkamper-hof

Mother: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=337123-ginie-vom-altenberger-land

Malloy was adorable - that plush coat and largeness of him. I called him "the wooly mammoth', paws were hooves and his tail was bushy. He was the sweetest most awesome dog with medium energy level. But let me tell you why I'm being "critical". It's heartbreaking when you go from this:




To this :(



I think you mentioned it already, the importance of hip/elbow scores and DM.

You are right, on the parents! My breeder was zu treuenhanden. Hannes was Deja's sire and Deja's mother, Vala, was a gifted tracking dog who has produced search/tracking/police dogs as well as accelerant and drug dogs and Athos' sire came from a dog named Urs. I have a ton of information about the producers on both side of the pedigree, and what has come out of them. The odds are genetically stacked in my favor!

As for the protection phase, that is because I haven't yet decided which route in SAR I'm going to go. Currently, the state of Illinois USAR does not support HRD (human remains detection) and do live find only. HRD is one of the distractions planted in the certification tests, so I wouldn't be able to train for that. On the other hand, another SAR team who does both live-find and HRD does not allow protection trained dogs. You and I both know that dogs trained in this type of work are very stable and safe but they err on the side of caution probably considering some of the handling that does go on out there in that area, depending on individual and group practices.

I haven't decided which way I'll go - with IL USAR or the other but I'm tending towards the live/HRD.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that depending on the sire Isis would be paired with, that could be, should be, a great union!!!

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.

Those eyebrows. :3:

Pez Rattie
Jan 1, 2010
I'M A DUMB, SNEERY CUNT AND SO IS MY ROOM MATE
I have been working on reading back in this thread and some of the discussion regarding form and function of our beloved breed made me think this may be an interesting read. The last paragraph in particular was significant:

quote:

The GSD has held sway over the police canine arena since the turn of the century. In the past, it has been held as the example for other breeds to attain. Unlike herding, where many breeds have demonstrated the ability to perform this task, often at a level higher than the GSD, no breed has endeared itself to law enforcement and others in need of a strong working dog like the GSD. Although the breed is a multi-purpose breed doing tasks such as guide dog for the blind, search and rescue, and home companion/protector, the GSD has been king of the police, a service dog for nearly its entire existence. With the change in emphasis towards beauty and elegance among the GSD breeders, the breed may be abandoned by law enforcement. The GSD is at risk to becoming what Max Von Stephanitz said it was not: "a fancy dog".

http://www.k9services.com/GSDasPSD.htm

Meanwhile, any of you around the Chicago area may be interested to see an upcoming PSA trial. This weekend, October 12-13, the Chicago Canine Company will be hosting their first annual PSA trial on the fields of Northeastern Illinois University. This is easy to get to, right on Foster Ave. and Saint Louis in the city. This is your chance to get a rare glimpse into an impressive dog sport. To learn more about PSA, go to http://psak9.org/rsvpmaker/psa-trial-midway-monsters-psa-club-chicago/

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Awwwww, son-of-a-bitch!! We're busy this weekend!! :( Stupid niece's birthday...

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Finally getting a chance to really reply to all of this!

Pez Rattie posted:

Well, remember that stacking makes for a more extreme looking angulation. However, his mother was extreme even when not stacked. Here were Malloy's parents:

Father: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=130421-carlo-vom-holtkamper-hof

Mother: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=337123-ginie-vom-altenberger-land



See, I still don't think your dog was as over exaggerated as either of his parents. It could be the pictures, but I don't see so much of the roach in the back, and some WGS dogs are so large and over angled that they practically look like english bulldogs in the rear. Like you could cover up either half of a picture of one, and your brain would fill in the gaps entirely different for the part you're not seeing (if that makes sense!) Either way, you're dead on about how hard it is watching a dog go through that. Aside from my client with DM, my in-laws had a GSD with horrible, crippling hip dysplatia. :( She was an awesome dog, her name was Freedom. She came from a breeder that pretty much took no stock in what they were breeding aside from "large family dogs". So to be fair, her temperament was outstanding, but her structure was atrocious, the poor thing. I loved her to death, she passed away way too early.










quote:

You are right, on the parents! My breeder was zu treuenhanden. Hannes was Deja's sire and Deja's mother, Vala, was a gifted tracking dog who has produced search/tracking/police dogs as well as accelerant and drug dogs and Athos' sire came from a dog named Urs. I have a ton of information about the producers on both side of the pedigree, and what has come out of them. The odds are genetically stacked in my favor!

As for the protection phase, that is because I haven't yet decided which route in SAR I'm going to go. Currently, the state of Illinois USAR does not support HRD (human remains detection) and do live find only. HRD is one of the distractions planted in the certification tests, so I wouldn't be able to train for that. On the other hand, another SAR team who does both live-find and HRD does not allow protection trained dogs. You and I both know that dogs trained in this type of work are very stable and safe but they err on the side of caution probably considering some of the handling that does go on out there in that area, depending on individual and group practices.

I haven't decided which way I'll go - with IL USAR or the other but I'm tending towards the live/HRD.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that depending on the sire Isis would be paired with, that could be, should be, a great union!!!

Oh, I hadn't thought about the SAR teams not allowing protection work! It makes sense, though, like you said, not everyone trains the way they should, and the last thing you want is to find a missing person and have the dog put them in a bark-hold, or worse! haha I'm super interested in the trailing method that's used for SAR, but I think, at least at this point in my life, it's too much dedication for me. It might be all volunteer, but the work involved is like having a second job, and my next dog is going to be for sports that can be a stress reliever for me. But I'd love to hear how you train for it as you go through the process!

So do you mind my asking where in IL you are? And what groups you work with? I'm trying to get to know the community here. I live south of Chicago in the suburbs, and I've been looking in to Topline for SchH training, but I'm on the fence as to what I want to do with a young pup for obedience classes, since I haven't gone to see the Topline classes for that, yet. If you don't want to talk about it here, you can PM me if you want. :)

Pez Rattie
Jan 1, 2010
I'M A DUMB, SNEERY CUNT AND SO IS MY ROOM MATE
I'm right in the city of Chicago. If you go for French Ring, there is Chicago Ringers, or for PSA, the Chicago Canine Company. They are the PSA club for the Midwest Region but that is where I'm doing scent work and plan to do much more. I hope to certify my pup in explosives as well. I highly recommend them for PSA, scent work and obedience. They are located near Foster and Pulaski in the city. It's a great location for me. I'm teaching out at an AKC Obedience Club in the suburbs. My friends doing Schutzhund are very happy working with Troy Seaton.

Meanwhile, here is a video of one of the trainers at Chicago Canine Company handling her dog in this weekend's trial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RFoGY_05do

I am very appreciative of PSA as opposed to Schutzhund. PSA has different scenarios every trial, so your handling and the dog's skills and adaptability is important. In Schutzhund, many dogs become pattern trained, just slogging through the same old routine.

I almost forgot to mention that a German Shepherd named Moses is the first GSD to get his PS2.

Pez Rattie fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Oct 15, 2013

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Holy crap, that thing with the plastic bottles is hilarious!! That does look fun, and more serious as far as the training needed on the dog. We're just looking for a club to go out and have fun, though, if we never title, that's fine with me. Talking to the people at Topline, it seems like we have a similar mindset. Bonding with your dog comes first, if you happen to work towards titles, that's cool, too. Not to mention where they train is super convenient for me! Love to know more options exist, though, you never know how serious you'll get until you're actually working with your dog. :)

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

AAAHHH!!! Wildhaus finally has a timeline for a litter, and are breeding Isis!! :ohdear: Currently working on my husband about getting on a list for a potential puppy in March.... :ohdear:

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
Do it do it do it and post ALL the updates/pictures.

Pez Rattie
Jan 1, 2010
I'M A DUMB, SNEERY CUNT AND SO IS MY ROOM MATE
More puppy pictures! We live two blocks from the beach and Frank loves to dig in the sand and run around in the water to get his rubber fish.




45# and looking pretty awkward

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

I was at a convention yesterday and they brought in a police dog to do a demo. I was there with a bunch of my trainer friends, so it was really interesting watching the demo and chatting about what we saw with people extremely well versed in dog behaviour and with a strong penchant for reinforcement-based training.

The handler brought the dog out on a prong collar, and the dog was obviously extremely stressed. While the officer talked about the program he asked for the dog to stay seated next to him. It was throwing every avoidance behaviour it could (crouched low, stress panting, averted gaze) at this time. Then it was time to actually demo some behaviour. The officer pulled out a different collar and the dog became a totally different animal. The dog was active and focused on the task at hand (in this case, a blind drug search). Despite the dog still wearing the prong (and the leash still being attached to it) you could tell that the new collar acted as a safety signal to the animal -- it knew that it wouldn't suffer any punishment for its behaviour so it performed its job with confidence.

Another task, another tool. The dog loved the bitework. It had its x-back harness put on, and again the dog's behaviour changed starkly. It was hypervigilant and when it caught sight of the guy with the sleeve it crouched down and whined/screamed at the end of its leash until it was released.

The demo dog was something they called an Italian Shepherd. They said it was basically a Malinois/Mastiff ~75/25 cross, but it looked like a black Mali with a squat, hosed up front end. Its elbows were jutting out from its body at an almost 45 degree angle. It was an ugly little thing, but pretty powerful and with great toy drive.

I always find watching these protection type demos fascinating since they tend to train in a completely different way, and I'm always interested to check out the various methods & their results. Despite the obvious stress, I think the dog performed well.

Here are a few blurry photos from it.

Full sleeve


Hidden sleeve

Pez Rattie
Jan 1, 2010
I'M A DUMB, SNEERY CUNT AND SO IS MY ROOM MATE
Dogs LOVE the bite. It's a big event and a huge reward. The collar they put on was most likely an e-collar. Most police dogs and PSA dogs employ them during work and dogs work happily and well with them. The dog is also most likely a kenneled working dog, not a social animal and was uncomfortable during the situation previous to the demo.

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Pez Rattie posted:

The dog is also most likely a kenneled working dog, not a social animal and was uncomfortable during the situation previous to the demo.

Totally didn't think of this, but it's probably true. When the dogs get their "working" gear on, all of a sudden they understand EXACTLY what is expected of them. Just out and about, not so much. I'm glad there's more places moving away from this situation and having the dogs in their handlers' homes, you would think you'd want a dog to be more socialized for various situations, right? Guess it could be a liability thing, though, or they ONLY want the dogs focusing on work? I was just watching a show about it the other day (police dogs in general, just a little half hour show about working dogs). They were showing the dog training in a subway station with a guy wearing a sleeve under his jacket, and the dog bit and held so hard (and then wouldn't let go, not very good! haha) he had pieces of the guy's jacket on his tongue. :haw: The dog was living with his handler, and the guy's wife said she was nervous about him at first, but can't believe how he could go out and do what he does every day, because at home he's just a big, lovey dog. :3:

Edit: Oh yeah, a life less, if you're interested in the training aspect, I had someone in the GSD forum post this link for me, it's pretty great! Goes through all sorts of stuff with starting a puppy and training in SchH and utilizes positive reinforcement (although it still lists a pinch as recommended starting gear, because the dogs get big? I dunno, I'd think you could teach a dog to walk on a flat collar if you could teach it all that other amazing stuff with a clicker...)
http://www.schutzhund-training.com/index.html

My favorite was watching the videos of puppies starting in scent training. :3:

WolfensteinBag fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Oct 31, 2013

Stregone
Sep 1, 2006
One of my nosework instructor's Malinois. She has 3 of them.



The two that I have met are super friendly.

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

That is an awesome picture, thanks for posting it. :3: I'm so jealous of your nosework stuff, it seems so fun! I keep talking about bringing Buddy to a nosework class because I think it's the only sport he'd ever have the patience for, but it hasn't happened yet. GOOD classes are hard to come by. :/


Wildhaus finally posted their breeding plans, so I'm trying to keep hopeful! Right this second, things still aren't working out for a puppy. :cry: Big thing of it is, my husband just finished school a little bit ago, and he's been trying to land a better job. So blah blah blah, e/n bs, that's sort of the thing holding us back from going for it. BUT, Wildhaus just posted that they're planning to breed Eris for the last time in the spring/summer, so there's another litter in the works if we miss out on the breeding with Isis, so that's making me feel better. Both litters are going to be interesting, and very similar to the last litter they had, which is working out amazing for them, apparently. The temperaments they're expecting sound perfect for our puppy plans, so I'm just hoping hoping hoping things work out at this point. :ohdear: After all this time, I'd hate to have to wait ANOTHER year...

adventure in the sandbox
Nov 24, 2005



Things change


WBag, you have the patience of a saint. A zen saint.

WolfensteinBag
Aug 7, 2003

So it was all your work?

Hahaha It's less about patience and more about being prepared and researched to a fault. :downs:

Stregone
Sep 1, 2006

WolfensteinBag posted:

That is an awesome picture, thanks for posting it. :3: I'm so jealous of your nosework stuff, it seems so fun! I keep talking about bringing Buddy to a nosework class because I think it's the only sport he'd ever have the patience for, but it hasn't happened yet. GOOD classes are hard to come by. :/

It IS a ton of fun. The best thing is it gets Shelby out and experiencing new things. Sometimes she still gets worked up, but most of the time she will lunge at someone and mid-lunge remember what she was doing and snap around and start searching again.

Here is one of her other dogs. The first NW1 titled boston terrier. I think its next month she is going for the first NW2 boston terrier :)



This dog is hilarious to watch, crazy enthusiastic.

Stregone fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Nov 11, 2013

Walked
Apr 14, 2003

I'd ask this in the puppy thread, but this may be more breed specific.

13 week old GSD from a breeder. We finally bought a house with a big yard and were finally comfortable to get a GSD (previously apartment dwellers, so no go there). That said, she's doing extremely well. Exceedingly so. Housebroken, smart, obedience going well and progress every day.


However, she's fearful in situations outside that are unfamiliar. She's entirely fine until she sees someone in the alley that she doesnt recognize, or a dog behind a fence barks at her, or a loud car (normal volume ones are fine) goes right by.

In googling, this seems to be pretty common with german sherpherds her age, but any insight? I'm very serious about socialization; she meets everyone we do, she goes as many places with us as possible. She even gets on with other dogs very well at the dog park (obedience classes start in two weeks).

Just want to be sure this isnt a bigger problem at this stage. If it is, what would you recommend?

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
Roughly 6-12 weeks is a pretty critical window for socialization. After that it can be harder to get her comfortable with new experiences. If you're not already, make sure experiences with whatever she's fearful of (or anything new) is very positive. Bring tons of high-value treats or a tug toy or ball if she's more into those. Never push her out of her comfort zone. She needs to feel secure and trust that she's never going to be forced into something she doesn't want, and that you will get her out of a scary situation if needed.

I'm personally not comfortable with young puppies at dog parks. All it may take is one negative experience with an rear end in a top hat dog for your puppy to learn to hate other dogs. I've also seen puppies in the daycares I've worked in pick up bad habits or develop "shorter tempers," if you will - they learn that other rude dogs aren't very good at taking a hint to leave them alone and they learn they need to lash out more aggressively to get the other dog to gently caress off. They learn the more polite signals don't work anymore and then you've got a dog who snaps more easily. Obviously I'm not saying "your dog is 100% guaranteed to be ruined by dog parks" but is much riskier than say, a play date with a friend's dog you know gets along with yours.

Walked
Apr 14, 2003

Skizzles posted:

Roughly 6-12 weeks is a pretty critical window for socialization. After that it can be harder to get her comfortable with new experiences. If you're not already, make sure experiences with whatever she's fearful of (or anything new) is very positive. Bring tons of high-value treats or a tug toy or ball if she's more into those. Never push her out of her comfort zone. She needs to feel secure and trust that she's never going to be forced into something she doesn't want, and that you will get her out of a scary situation if needed.

I'm personally not comfortable with young puppies at dog parks. All it may take is one negative experience with an rear end in a top hat dog for your puppy to learn to hate other dogs. I've also seen puppies in the daycares I've worked in pick up bad habits or develop "shorter tempers," if you will - they learn that other rude dogs aren't very good at taking a hint to leave them alone and they learn they need to lash out more aggressively to get the other dog to gently caress off. They learn the more polite signals don't work anymore and then you've got a dog who snaps more easily. Obviously I'm not saying "your dog is 100% guaranteed to be ruined by dog parks" but is much riskier than say, a play date with a friend's dog you know gets along with yours.

Thanks. I should have been more clear about the dog park piece (as I've seen similar issues) - we have a back yard that's in the process of being fenced. However there's a local dog walker friend of mine that has a core group of four really friendly dogs (and occasional others) who texts me when he's headed to a dog park that's a few blocks from us. It almost never gets used otherwise (I've never met anyone there) but at least this way she's getting a chance to socialize with pre-screened dogs.

On the positivity front - that's noted and what I've seen discussed for these things. Thanks. We'll keep working with her. She's very good with people, its really just loud unfamiliar things mostly.


edit: Also, it's far more pronounced at home (basically within line of sight of the house). If we pick up and drive somewhere the issue dissolves about 90%. Once we're close to home and loud things are an issue. I think it's because she has an immediate desire to retreat to the house where it's safe, whereas elsewhere she doesnt. So we try to go other places and keep it happy and fun.

Walked fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Nov 14, 2013

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Walked posted:

I'd ask this in the puppy thread, but this may be more breed specific.

13 week old GSD from a breeder. We finally bought a house with a big yard and were finally comfortable to get a GSD (previously apartment dwellers, so no go there). That said, she's doing extremely well. Exceedingly so. Housebroken, smart, obedience going well and progress every day.


However, she's fearful in situations outside that are unfamiliar. She's entirely fine until she sees someone in the alley that she doesnt recognize, or a dog behind a fence barks at her, or a loud car (normal volume ones are fine) goes right by.

In googling, this seems to be pretty common with german sherpherds her age, but any insight? I'm very serious about socialization; she meets everyone we do, she goes as many places with us as possible. She even gets on with other dogs very well at the dog park (obedience classes start in two weeks).

Just want to be sure this isnt a bigger problem at this stage. If it is, what would you recommend?

I'd be a little concerned that fear issues are cropping up already, however fear periods are common in GSDs.

A lot of people mistake taking the dog lots of places as socialization. It's not. It's exposing your dog to a new situation, and ensuring that your dog is successful. If you take your dog to the park and it's frightened, then you take your dog to the store and it's frightened then you take your dog to meet your neighbour and it's frightened you're not helping your dog learn how to cope, and you very well may be reinforcing its fear. So, instead, take your dog to a new place. If the dog is successful (happy, engaged, focused) then move on to the next place. If your dog is not successful (anxious, barky, fearful, shut down) then decrease the intensity of the exposure, but continue going back to the same place until your dog succeeds. It may take 2 visits. It may take 10.

Here's one of my favourite articles about socialization: Don't Socialize the Dog! http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3953

I imagine it's more pronounced near the house because that's the area where she's most familiar, and therefore most confident to express how she feels. Or she's learned "this is what I do when I see X in place Y". If it's the latter, it's just about training a new behaviour, which you'll do via the above suggestions.

Walked
Apr 14, 2003

a life less posted:

I'd be a little concerned that fear issues are cropping up already, however fear periods are common in GSDs.

A lot of people mistake taking the dog lots of places as socialization. It's not. It's exposing your dog to a new situation, and ensuring that your dog is successful. If you take your dog to the park and it's frightened, then you take your dog to the store and it's frightened then you take your dog to meet your neighbour and it's frightened you're not helping your dog learn how to cope, and you very well may be reinforcing its fear. So, instead, take your dog to a new place. If the dog is successful (happy, engaged, focused) then move on to the next place. If your dog is not successful (anxious, barky, fearful, shut down) then decrease the intensity of the exposure, but continue going back to the same place until your dog succeeds. It may take 2 visits. It may take 10.

Here's one of my favourite articles about socialization: Don't Socialize the Dog! http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3953

I imagine it's more pronounced near the house because that's the area where she's most familiar, and therefore most confident to express how she feels. Or she's learned "this is what I do when I see X in place Y". If it's the latter, it's just about training a new behaviour, which you'll do via the above suggestions.

Thank you. That article is awesome and very helpful. Much appreciated.

Oxford Comma
Jun 26, 2011
Oxford Comma: Hey guys I want a cool big dog to show off! I want it to be ~special~ like Thor but more couch potato-like because I got babbies in the house!
Everybody: GET A LAB.
Oxford Comma: OK! (gets a a pit/catahoula mix)
So I'm on the cusp of adopting a cute 4-year old GS/Lab mix from the Berkeley CA shelter. I'm wondering if being crossbred will reduce his chances of contracting hip dysplasia. I know that reading the tea leaves in this is hard to do, but overall....? I just had to put down our 14 year old pit bull for hip dysplasia so its kinda on my mind.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Oxford Comma posted:

So I'm on the cusp of adopting a cute 4-year old GS/Lab mix from the Berkeley CA shelter. I'm wondering if being crossbred will reduce his chances of contracting hip dysplasia. I know that reading the tea leaves in this is hard to do, but overall....? I just had to put down our 14 year old pit bull for hip dysplasia so its kinda on my mind.

Unfortunately Labs are pretty badly pre-disposed to hip dysplasia too. It'll depend on the health of the dog's sire/dam, and its ancestors. You can take the dog in for an x-ray if you're concerned.

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Oxford Comma
Jun 26, 2011
Oxford Comma: Hey guys I want a cool big dog to show off! I want it to be ~special~ like Thor but more couch potato-like because I got babbies in the house!
Everybody: GET A LAB.
Oxford Comma: OK! (gets a a pit/catahoula mix)

a life less posted:

Unfortunately Labs are pretty badly pre-disposed to hip dysplasia too. It'll depend on the health of the dog's sire/dam, and its ancestors. You can take the dog in for an x-ray if you're concerned.

Interesting. I didn't know that about lab. :tipshat:

Anyways, we're not going to adopt that particular dog. Our old-rear end Golden Lab went BATSHIT when she saw the other dog. Not in an aggressive way; just in a super-HOLY-poo poo-EXCITED way, and freaked out the GS/Lab. Kinda like a girl telling you about her plans for babies and marriage on the second date, really. We're going to try and find a more confident dog.

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