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bassguitarhero posted:Keep in mind, this was 1923: The child mentioned in Plecker's letter could still be alive. Holy poo poo. The main text of the first letter is bad enough, but that "It's an awful thing" at the end just adds that personal touch that makes it all the worse.
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Sep 15, 2013 07:58
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CommissarMega posted:But aren't the Irish all white in skin colour? I know it's dumb to apply logic to racism, but what manner of convoluted reason made the Irish not-white in the eyes of racists?
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Sep 15, 2013 08:06
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bassguitarhero posted:http://theaporetic.com/?p=54 That letter does come off as really unsettling. I'm not sure whether the thinly veiled threat to the midwife or the outright pronouncement of the child as an "awful thing" is worse, but the whole thing reads as a little surreal. And of course the town where this lady lives is named Lynchburg, because why wouldn't it be?
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Sep 15, 2013 08:08
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The history of race relations and racism in America is basically like a multi-generational contest to see who could be the worst human beings possible, it's truly amazing in a completely terrible way. I remember seeing complaints when Infinite first came out decrying Irrational for skewing things to a hyperbolic extreme which, if anything, they were holding themselves back.
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Sep 15, 2013 09:08
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AndwhatIseeisme posted:And of course the town where this lady lives is named Lynchburg, because why wouldn't it be? Indeed. That should've been the first hint to move the gently caress somewhere else.
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Sep 15, 2013 10:14
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Kai Tave posted:The history of race relations and racism in America is basically like a multi-generational contest to see who could be the worst human beings possible, it's truly amazing in a completely terrible way. I remember seeing complaints when Infinite first came out decrying Irrational for skewing things to a hyperbolic extreme which, if anything, they were holding themselves back. Considering three years ago, I was able to drive down a fairly major road in my area with a billboard message from the Klan telling me to "keep the Christ in Christmas," I have to admit that the racism in BInfinite failed to shock me. (Sundowner, I've been really enjoying this LP! I'm glad you take things a bit slow so we can see all the little details. Thanks for doing such an awesome job.)
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Sep 15, 2013 11:14
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Kai Tave posted:To elaborate on this, the one drop rule was an actual no-fooling piece of 20th century American legislation that classified anyone as a "negro" if they had any African ancestry whatsoever. Were you 1/64th black on your umpteenth great-grandwhatever's side? Get in line with the other coloreds, darkie. It was first adopted in Tennessee in 1910 and other states (largely the southern ones for some reason) followed suit. Prior to this the legal definition of "negro-hood" for lack of a better word was more relaxed (sort of), usually requiring more than one-quarter African ancestry (though it could be one-eighth depending on the state) and if you "looked white enough" then you had an easier time simply integrating into white communities without any complaints. As I understand it the one-drop rule was around a lot longer than that, if not actually written into law. I recall reading somewhere (I could be compltetely wrong about this) That a common abolitionist tactic in the north was to hold mock 'slave auctions' where they would parade out black and mixed-race volunteers that got progressively lighter-skinned until there were those who were indistinguishable from whites, who under southern rules could be treated as slaves due to their ancestry (assuming that their black ancestors were slaves).
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Sep 15, 2013 11:41
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bassguitarhero posted:In the USA, for a long time, the Irish were considered "colored" and this blog has a scan of a marriage certificate between two Irish people in Virginia in 1884 wherein they were classified as "colored" when it came to their race. Actually, by the article the original marriage certificate in 1884 had them as "White". It was when Plecker refiled the certificate in 1940 that he altered it to "colored". The article does make it sound like classing Irish as "colored" would not have been standard practice. My great-granduncle emigrated from Donegal to New Mexico and was elected sherrif of Mora County, so there couldn't have been that much prejudice against him. Kloro fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Sep 15, 2013 |
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Sep 15, 2013 11:42
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Yvonmukluk posted:As I understand it the one-drop rule was around a lot longer than that, if not actually written into law. I recall reading somewhere (I could be compltetely wrong about this) That a common abolitionist tactic in the north was to hold mock 'slave auctions' where they would parade out black and mixed-race volunteers that got progressively lighter-skinned until there were those who were indistinguishable from whites, who under southern rules could be treated as slaves due to their ancestry (assuming that their black ancestors were slaves). You are correct, sir; though not official in any capacity until later, there are references to "one drop" going back to between 1830 to 1840, in the so-called "free" northern states, before spreading south. Let us not also forget the lovely terms created for such people, to remind them that they weren't white enough and really ought to be in chains for everyone's good. These included mulatto (half white, half black), quadroon (three quarter white, one fourth black) and octaroon (7/8 white, 1/8 black). Just to give you an idea of how far back people were willing to look for the right to call somebody a friend of the family. You are familiar with Alexandre Dumas, the celebrated French author who created The Three Musketeers, The Count of Monte Cristo, and a host of other famous works? His father, a famous general, was born in current Haiti to a soldier and a black slave woman in 1762, and by drat, no one let him forget it. He only wrote one novel regarding colonialism and racial issues in any capacity, Georges,, and among the criticism was this cartoon: http://www.sexualfables.com/images/Alexandre_Dumas.jpg It is entitled, "The Quadroon Chef: Dumas concocting his bouillabaisse of romance." Yeah. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Nadar_-_Alexander_Dumas_p%C3%A8re_%281802-1870%29_-_Google_Art_Project_2.jpg This is what he looked like, for comparison. He took it like a champ, though. In response to a racial slur, this is his now famous reply: "My father was a mulatto, my grandfather was a Negro, and my great-grandfather a monkey. You see, Sir, my family starts where yours ends."  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 15, 2013 13:07
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Reminds me of Django Unchained where the francophile poseur (and horrible person) Candy loves the Three Musketeers because he doesn't realize that Dumas is Dumas's weird looks really come from him being a fat goon more than any racial thing. His features look quite stereotypically French. I bet if he lost 50 pounds and straightened his hair nobody would notice a thing.
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Sep 15, 2013 13:15
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Yeah, that's kind of the joke about it. The hair is a bit of a giveaway, though.
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Sep 15, 2013 13:27
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I know, I just felt the need to acknowledge that Dumas was a weird-looking dude, even if his putative blackness doesn't have much to do with it.
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Sep 15, 2013 13:55
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I've never played this game, but I'm absolutely wowed by the art direction. I especially like the use of lighting to draw attention to certain parts in a game where you control the camera at almost all times. It gives a great sense of freedom without sacrificing stylistic considerations. I also like the cheery, bright outside world, contrasted with the darker, creepy places we've seen so far. It makes those places more disturbing than if the entire game was dark and creepy. Thematically this game seems to like to juxtapose bright, utopian outsides with dark, horrible insides. That being said I find the topic of race in this game so over the top that it almost becomes a caricature. I realise that the period and ideals this game is based on had a lot of racism, but I always assumed it was a bit more... subtle in real life? I'm no expert on early 20th century American history, but in the context of this game it seems like a cheap way to point out that COMSTOCK IS EVIIIIIL! A couple of thinly veiled racist remarks throughout the game would've been more effective in establishing the same thing, in my opinion. The people at the beach could've been SS death squads judging from their dialogue. Guess I'll see how the rest of the game handles it. As for speculation... welp, if the plot device is quantum mechanics, I guess anything goes. Judging from the last video's prophecy which is correct except for the date, it seems Comstock doesn't so much see the 'future' as he does possible futures. It would explain why he appears so afraid of the False Prophet; he cannot defend against every possibility. I suspect Elizabeth is a way to 'fix' the state of the future, much like checking the state of Schroedinger's Cat makes the cat either dead or alive, instead of both at the same time. It explains the coin flips at the beginning of the game. Our protagonist Booker is clearly not 'human', judging from the intro sequence. Probably manipulated through some quantum mechanics bullshit means. The game seems to heavily hint that Booker 'makes up' memories to patch any illogical holes. Also, the 'twins' are the same person, but with different genders because they come from some alternate universe, is my guess.
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Sep 15, 2013 16:14
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Ekster posted:That being said I find the topic of race in this game so over the top that it almost becomes a caricature. I realise that the period and ideals this game is based on had a lot of racism, but I always assumed it was a bit more... subtle in real life? I'm no expert on early 20th century American history, but in the context of this game it seems like a cheap way to point out that COMSTOCK IS EVIIIIIL! A couple of thinly veiled racist remarks throughout the game would've been more effective in establishing the same thing, in my opinion. The people at the beach could've been SS death squads judging from their dialogue. Guess I'll see how the rest of the game handles it. Kai Tave posted:The history of race relations and racism in America is basically like a multi-generational contest to see who could be the worst human beings possible, it's truly amazing in a completely terrible way. I remember seeing complaints when Infinite first came out decrying Irrational for skewing things to a hyperbolic extreme which, if anything, they were holding themselves back. Already been discussed.
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Sep 15, 2013 16:32
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Ekster posted:That being said I find the topic of race in this game so over the top that it almost becomes a caricature. I realise that the period and ideals this game is based on had a lot of racism, but I always assumed it was a bit more... subtle in real life? I'm no expert on early 20th century American history, but in the context of this game it seems like a cheap way to point out that COMSTOCK IS EVIIIIIL! A couple of thinly veiled racist remarks throughout the game would've been more effective in establishing the same thing, in my opinion. The people at the beach could've been SS death squads judging from their dialogue. Guess I'll see how the rest of the game handles it. It really isn't over the top. The early 20th Century was the absolute nadir of race relations in the US, the KKK was millions strong in a country of 65 million people. The average white person talking about race back then probably would've sounded quite a bit like the people on the beach.
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Sep 15, 2013 16:34
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AndwhatIseeisme posted:That letter does come off as really unsettling. I'm not sure whether the thinly veiled threat to the midwife or the outright pronouncement of the child as an "awful thing" is worse, but the whole thing reads as a little surreal. Lynchburg is named after John Lynch, who operated a ferry in the area for people something like 300 years ago. Not that it isn't a stupidly racist city, just it's not named that because of what you're thinking.
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Sep 15, 2013 16:34
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Ekster posted:
It might not be a bad idea to read the last page and a half, and then get back to us on whether you still feel this way.
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Sep 15, 2013 16:34
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AndwhatIseeisme posted:It might not be a bad idea to read the last page and a half, and then get back to us on whether you still feel this way. Sorry for not clarifying before, but yes I have read the previous posts, but I wasn't sure about how mainstream these viewpoints actually were. Judging from the previous reactions, apparently more mainstream than I thought. Guess my view of early 20th century America was more rosy than I had previously thought. Sorry about that.
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Sep 15, 2013 17:09
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Ekster posted:Sorry for not clarifying before, but yes I have read the previous posts, but I wasn't sure about how mainstream these viewpoints actually were. Judging from the previous reactions, apparently more mainstream than I thought. Guess my view of early 20th century America was more rosy than I had previously thought. Sorry about that. It's not something Americans like to talk about unless they're drumming up political support in certain parts of the country. Usually gets a brief mention in history class, which may be followed by a "but that's all better now, we fixed it" depending on the teacher. Spoiler: it's better than it was, but we haven't fixed it.
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Sep 15, 2013 17:36
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I'm not sure I'd even say it's a little better, people just lie about it now.
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Sep 15, 2013 17:39
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Racism is still horribly integrated into our society and I don't want to make it seem like that's not true, but I think we may have a certain major political figure which proves that we're at least moving in the right direction in regards to race.
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Sep 15, 2013 17:51
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Flesnolk posted:I'm not sure I'd even say it's a little better, people just lie about it now. We're not openly lynching people anymore, so that's progress. Well, not literally anyway.
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Sep 15, 2013 17:55
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There are co-ed buses now. That's something.
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Sep 15, 2013 18:04
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Livingtrope posted:Racism is still horribly integrated into our society and I don't want to make it seem like that's not true, but I think we may have a certain major political figure which proves that we're at least moving in the right direction in regards to race. You might have a point if his opponents entire campaign wasn't based around, "You ain't gonna vote for a darky, are ya? He's not even really American!"
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Sep 15, 2013 18:13
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His opponent's entire campaign didn't keep him out of office, did it? Seriously, I know it isn't perfect, but don't try to take away from the achievement that Obama represents to the average black person. VVV That isn't what I'm saying at all, but this derail is going on for too long so we should probably drop it before we all get probated for it. mandatory lesbian fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Sep 15, 2013 |
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Sep 15, 2013 18:42
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The only thing Obama's elections have proved is that slightly over 50% of Americans hate Republican policy and/or like Democratic policy more than they hate black people. It doesn't necessarily say they are completely not racist.
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Sep 15, 2013 18:51
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RBA Starblade posted:We're not openly lynching people anymore, so that's progress. Well, not literally anyway. Pretty sure there've been suspected lynchings in at least Mississippi as recently as 2010, and Florida did essentially declare it legal to murder black people this year.
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Sep 15, 2013 19:05
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I'm pretty sure every execution of a black person counts as lynching. Nine out of ten people executed for interracial murder are black. Blacks are almost three times more likely to be killed by a white person than a white is to be killed by blacks. Doesn't take much to see the priorities there.
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Sep 15, 2013 19:14
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JT Jag posted:The only thing Obama's elections have proved is that slightly over 50% of Americans hate Republican policy and/or like Democratic policy more than they hate black people. It doesn't necessarily say they are completely not racist. Hating Republican policy and not being completely racist are pretty much linked together.
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Sep 15, 2013 19:14
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Please do not be having this conversation here. For fucks' sake.
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Sep 15, 2013 19:27
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To clarify something about the Irish - the primary reason they were considered subhuman was because they were largely Catholic. Recall that the colonies were founded by Protestants and that Protestant ideology guided political and social views since the founding of the colonies and up til... well, now. Catholics were persona non grata back then and pretty much still are. JFK has been the only non-Protestant president we've ever had and a LOT of people were not happy about the idea of a Catholic in charge of the US, and we're talking about the 19-loving-60s here. The very first Irish immigrants to America were actually Protestants and they were treated just fine. They referred to themselves as the Scotch-Irish to differentiate themselves from later filthy Irish Catholic immigrants who were, of course, horrible mongrels.
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Sep 15, 2013 19:57
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The statement that conditions for black people haven't improved in the US between the end of the 19th century and now is possibly the most "I'm a white person with a Tumblr and almost no historical understanding" thing I've ever read. To understand the era the game is set in, you have to understand that it's pretty much at the height of what would be termed, "scientific racism", which is something that you pretty much no longer see, save on something like Stormfront, and even then I have my doubts as to whether they actually believe it. The idea of race as a concept doesn't really come up until you have people sailing galleons around the world and the beginnings of the slave trade. There's a line of thought that it follows directly on from the end of feudalism, and with it, the end of serfdom. So you have a society that is by and large emancipating white people, but needs someone to replace that labour. Hence, the slave trade, and in tangent with it, a justification for the slave trade, which basically runs that white people are the descendants of the Romans and the Greeks, and various other peoples, whereas black people are barely evolved from monkeys, possibly an entirely different species altogether (this was something Voltaire believed, out of interest, although he also believed they'd one day go on to achieve the same things as white people). It's in that context that you can start to understand how you can have a nation founded by a group of men who declare, "all men are created equal" while owning a large number of slaves. And the notion of the "White Man's Burden", that is, to go into Africa, divide it up, and "civilize" the people living there (the Belgians did this, again in the same era as the game, by turning the entire nation of the Congo into a personal slave state of the King of Belgium, killing anywhere up to 20 million people in the process, good luck learning that in school). And, of course, it explains why people are so vehemently against miscegenation in that time period and why they're willing to put in place "one drop" laws. Nowadays, when you see racism in the US, it's generally stereotypes and cultural generalisations ("Shaniqua popping out welfare babies", and so on), rather than any real belief that black people are a sub-species of humans that are either poorly evolved, inbred, diseased, or any of the other theories that would be contemporary to this setting. The idea at the time that you could have a black President of the union or black media icons, or even black sporting stars, would have been considered just completely absurd by a large majority of people.
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Sep 15, 2013 21:14
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Modern race relations bear very little resemblance to what they did in 1900. This is not because they are perfect today. This is because in 1900 they were far, far worse than practically anyone today realizes. Several Presidents either openly supported or at least courted the support of the KKK during the 1900-1920 period. They did so because, with a driven membership in the millions and a proven record of both getting out their own vote and suppressing everyone else's, it made political sense to do so. Lynchings were so common that people made postcards of them. Civil rights for Blacks was not even opposed, the concept itself was laughable. All the violence of the civil rights movements of the 50s-60s was in the future, because it was unthinkable to basically anyone that either black people would demand civil rights, or that anyone in the country would support that demand. The Army was segregated, the schools were segregated, largely all of civic and public society was segregated, not just in the South but practically everywhere, if not by law then by inviolable custom. Miscegenation was outright illegal in many parts of the country. It is common enough to make accusations that some of these things are still the case, at least if we look at this recent incident or that one, but we forget the ubiquity and totality of racism back then, so pervasive that it was not, by the vast majority of people, even regarded as a moral question. Forgetting that Barack Obama became the President, his very existence as a half-white, half-black child would have been unthinkable in public society back then. Not because there was any shortage of mixed-race persons then or at any time before, but because the prevailing thought was that mixing the races was unnatural, evil, and a violation of the laws of God. Scientific theories were promulgated "proving" these things by major universities, and circulated among learned men. A man who, today, publicly calls a black man "friend of the family", torpedoes his political career in all but the narrowest circumstances, and is regarded by the media, by other politicians, and by society at large as a myopic, uneducated, racist thug deserving of the utmost scorn. I know many cases from the early 1900s in which the same scorn was heaped upon politicians who failed to use the term "friend of the family" sufficiently, because their constituents believed that this indicated a "secret" desire to pollute the white race. Society today is more different than that of a hundred years ago by a margin wider than most of us can imagine. Once more, this is not because we have solved all racial problems and live today in perfect harmony with our fellow man. It is because society in 1900 was so far beyond anything most of us can even imagine. For all its shocking racism and imagery, I don't feel that Columbia distorts the case much at all. In fact, if anything, it may well undershoot it.
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Sep 15, 2013 21:56
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Unrelated, though still semi-related story! Back in the late 18th century, when my ancestors on my grandma's side came to America, they moved because one was a comely Irish Catholic lass, and the other a well to do Protestant English man, and in both Ireland and England, this was pretty looked down upon. So no matter how bad it was in America, it was apparently still better to tough out with us in the new frontiers than stay if loving Europe. I also kinda wonder how well such a marriage would have gone over in Columbia?
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Sep 16, 2013 02:39
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Sosogomi posted:I also kinda wonder how well such a marriage would have gone over in Columbia? Remember that scene where the crowd is gathered to throw rocks?
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Sep 16, 2013 03:13
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Hell, I got indirect poo poo from my Kiwi (thus Anglican) husband's 90-something grandmother, who said (not in so many words) that I wasn't half-bad for a dirty Papist. This was in '99. As interesting as the discussion is here, I admit I'm always a little disappointed to see a bunch of new posts and no new video. But it's worth the wait!
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Sep 16, 2013 03:15
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I would have had an update ready for today or early tomorrow but I got roped in to a seriously long D&D game today. I'll either get the update finished tomorrow evening or early Tuesday. I should probably make an actual schedule but my days change so much lately that it's hard to lock down a regular posting schedule.
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Sep 16, 2013 03:24
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Cardiovorax posted:Blacks are almost three times more likely to be killed by a white person than a white is to be killed by blacks. I know, I know, really I know that the point you're making is about conviction rates and executions, so don't feel the need to tell me... but I just want to point out that this number is actually less than you would expect from population numbers alone. There are between four and five times more white-identifying Americans than black-identifying Americans. If murders were perfectly distributed you would expect that a black person would be four to five times more likely to be murdered by a white person than by a black person. And yeah you just have to look at the plight of the Irish and Germans to see how much race relations have improved. My family is from Wisconsin; pretty much everyone in the state is Irish-German-something. Even the black people. Binge-drinking capital of America. 
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Sep 16, 2013 03:42
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Hirayuki posted:Hell, I got indirect poo poo from my Kiwi (thus Anglican) husband's 90-something grandmother, who said (not in so many words) that I wasn't half-bad for a dirty Papist. This was in '99. My West Texas, Church of Christ dirt farming grandparents said the exact same thing about my mother.
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Sep 16, 2013 04:24
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Cardiovorax posted:I'm pretty sure every execution of a black person counts as lynching. No, it really, really doesn't. Go read about the sort of poo poo that happened to blacks who got lynched (hint: it often involved force feeding young black men their own severed and roasted testicles) - suffice to say that it was more horrible than words can really describe, far more horrible than anything you do or see done to anyone in this game. American race relations are bad, but saying things are precisely as bad as they were when lynching was a thing is a really flimsy argument that undermines any attempt you make to have a more meaningful dialogue about such things. Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Sep 16, 2013 |
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Sep 16, 2013 04:54
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