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lenoon posted:In a setting where the good guys literally condemn planets to a fire-wreathed doom for thinking the wrong thing, there's an issue with flashman being amoral? In the BL fiction, ultraviolence is not only normalised, it's an end in and of itself even for the purest protagonist. Every single one of the characters we read about is a murderer on a scale virtually unimaginable by anyone who isn't a predator drone operator or something. I wouldn't know, all I read is Abnett, ADB and Wraight.
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Sep 29, 2013 08:58
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ADB had a series where the protagonists are from the 'literal murderers' legion and makes you sympathise with them. Well written, yes, but far far less 'moral' than flash
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Sep 29, 2013 09:02
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They're tragic figures, with redeeming human traits that allow you sympathize with them in the first place. Why is this being compared to Flashman anyway? It's apples and oranges.
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Sep 29, 2013 09:21
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It's funny to see people saying 'I couldn't possibly read flashman, he's too much of a bastard' then enthusiastically chuckling at genocide and warfare
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Sep 29, 2013 09:39
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 It's funny to see people posting long-winded and poorly-crafted straw men? No, actually, it's not.
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Sep 29, 2013 09:43
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Nephilm posted:They're tragic figures, with redeeming human traits that allow you sympathize with them in the first place. Mostly because Ciaphas Cain exists.
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Sep 29, 2013 10:18
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Nephilm posted:They're tragic figures, with redeeming human traits that allow you sympathize with them in the first place. Maybe I'm a bastard (or not psychotic) but I didn't sympathize at all with the night lords.
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Sep 29, 2013 10:27
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Nephilm posted:
Sick burn man, sick.
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Sep 29, 2013 10:57
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'A villain with a redeeming quality is always more loved than a hero with a flaw.'
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Sep 29, 2013 11:03
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lenoon posted:(All of this is because the whole setting was designed by three british nerds on a power fantasy trip during the 70s and 80s, and you can tell - no self awareness, no reflexivity, no creativity, just war, endless glorified death and the laughter of thirsting spergs) Uh the whole setting was designed as an elaborate joke to justify endless battles for a proto-RPG/Napoleonic wargame, with an aesthetic based on heavy-metal album cover art. It's pretty self-aware considering half the characters are named after puns and 80s pop culture references, and the setting itself is expressly designed to allow players maximum creativity when modeling and storytelling. I'm also sick of people abusing the term "power fantasy." Space Marines are super-strong socially retarded sexless manchildren. That's kind of the joke. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 14:29
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Khizan posted:The thing about Cain is that he's not a vile bastard of a character. In the grim dark grimdarkness of the 40,000th millenium, as the galaxy is torn apart by the galactic battle to control the Skull Trade... Cain is basically a pretty decent guy. This, and it gets pretty obvious as you read through the books chronologically that Cain is honestly the most virtuous person in the entire setting. He's just ridiculously humble. If it was any other setting the whole "cowardly hero" thing wouldn't work in the way it's presented there. As it is it's a pretty dark comedy series when you view the entirety of the books released. To put the kind of comedy on display in perspective, Cain is the only human to be formally declared alive after his actual death. Why? Because he kept getting forced into suicidal situations so often. Y'see, every time something terrible would happen around him, everything in a forty mile radius would usually end up dead. So the Administratum would just shrug and declare him KIA. Then he'd inevitably come strolling out of the mess a few months later, leading an army of rebels/survivors/civilians he trained up, before decapitating the warlord responsible for the clusterfuck he found himself in. He'd then hop on a ship to the next warzone to do it all over again. The Administratum's answer to having to declare him dead every few years was to simply say that Cain never died even after he died of old age. He's the only human in the entirety of the Imperium to basically be considered immortal by law due to the sheer headaches his exploits caused the Administratum. Within the context of the Imperium, Cain is essentially equal to the Emperor when it comes to being damned hard to kill. And of course he absolutely loving hates it, since it gets him into all sorts of trouble that other And the funniest part is that it's implied that centuries later someone is still having to file military pay and benefits for his corpse. He faked out and confused the Administratum so badly that they're not even sure death from old age could take him. Because it's the kind of setting where resurrections are technically possible if you're blessed by the Emperor. So they just funnel money into a proverbial black hole so that they don't have to risk declaring him alive again the next time some chaos warlord storms the planet he was buried on. Presumably they think he'd suddenly resurrect, punch his way through the casket he was in, and then punt the rear end in a top hat off the planet.  So it's more Flashman if Flashman wasn't a huge cock. They definitely have similarities. But as the series progresses it becomes apparent that Cain is his own character with an actual moral code. Compare this with Flashman, who is a huge prick and never really does anything heroic. Archonex fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 15:22
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Cain has one flaw really, and that's incredibly low self-esteem.
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Sep 29, 2013 15:32
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lenoon posted:In a setting where the good guys literally condemn planets to a fire-wreathed doom for thinking the wrong thing, there's an issue with flashman being amoral? In the BL fiction, ultraviolence is not only normalised, it's an end in and of itself even for the purest protagonist. Every single one of the characters we read about is a murderer on a scale virtually unimaginable by anyone who isn't a predator drone operator or something. This is basically what I had in mind, but I have the eloquence of an ape smashing stones together so I couldn't express it properly. Flashman is a bastard, but he's also a product of the times he lives in. He serves as a good personal example of what it took to succeed (in relative terms) in those times. Rape, theft, lying, cheating, stealing - he's basically what the British Empire did in the 19th century, condensed into one man. Given that he keeps seeing some of the worst events of that century, what better commentator to a horrible event than a horrible person?
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Sep 29, 2013 15:44
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Nephilm posted:Not many WH40k fans I know identify themselves with a rapist piece of poo poo human being, or praise the setting as a historical account - they're just manchildren that like disproportioned muscled mans shooting other mans and get offended when you go against their headcanon despite never reading anything outside the codexes.
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Sep 29, 2013 17:56
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Cream_Filling posted:
Sometimes I think we do miss this point. WH40K is not meant to be all that serious, as Cream-Filling mentioned, the initial premise was based on humour. We are not meant to learn any great lessons from these works, neither moral nor amoral. Occasionally an author uses the setting as a critique of historical events, but ultimately the aim is to entertain, not to teach.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:20
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Fideles posted:Sometimes I think we do miss this point. WH40K is not meant to be all that serious, as Cream-Filling mentioned, the initial premise was based on humour. We are not meant to learn any great lessons from these works, neither moral nor amoral. Occasionally an author uses the setting as a critique of historical events, but ultimately the aim is to entertain, not to teach. I disagree somewhat. Art is art, even heavily commercialized art. 40k is essentially commercial art in that it's basically advertising for plastic toys. But some of it is relatively well done and compares well to other fantasy works. The management even sets guidelines for its stories like "the Imperium must either lose or else wins only at immense cost" to at least try and make even the crappier stuff less porny. Some effort is made to not have clear 'bad guys' and the setting overall, even in its most self-serious incarnations, often has some level of historical perspective, which is appropriate since the entire fantasy genre originated as a sort of cross-pollination between historical fiction and mythology for history and classics nerds to dick around and also make money by writing pulp. As a playground for older children and adults who want to let their hair down, there's opportunities to re-interpret and play with history and mythology while protected by the overall absurdity of the whole enterprise.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:10
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thespaceinvader posted:Mostly because Ciaphas Cain exists. He's specifically comparing bolter porn and the works of Abnett/ADB to Flashman.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:29
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I'm specifically saying that its odd to cite flashman's actions as amoral and a reason not to read the series in a thread where novels glorify the act of killing on a phenomenal scale. Yes 40k isn't realistic, but neither is flashman - one guy gets into every single event of the late nineteenth century? But flashman novels use their negative events for a reason, Bolter porn uses bloody violent death as a greater good. Shall I clarify? Novels with a rapist main character are problematic, rape is a terrible thing. Novels where the main characters commit genocide and torture (even when set in the future) are also bad, genocide and torture are a bad thing. All I was saying is that we must acknowledge what we read and the cornerstone of this hobby - a child's view of the effects of war. Every single character in the books discussed in this thread (except perhaps Cain, ironically enough) is amoral on a scale far beyond flashy.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:23
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lenoon posted:I'm specifically saying that its odd to cite flashman's actions as amoral and a reason not to read the series in a thread where novels glorify the act of killing on a phenomenal scale. No, the cited reason for not reading them is because they're "dark comedies", where the main character is an awful, terrible individual with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, that gets away with all the poo poo he does. For people who have any sensitivity towards 'karmic balance', which you might be surprised form a large part of the population, finding them unappealing would just come naturally. On a more personal level, these kind of stories don't appeal to me as is, but I've rubbed elbows with people who take them as power fantasies one too many times, which just completely ruins the enterprise forever as far as I'm concerned. Your juxtaposition is further flawed because in this thread the general opinion is that bolter porn is trashy, and should be avoided in favor of the actual good works from the authors that take the setting and create engaging stories with it.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:47
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lenoon posted:I'm specifically saying that its odd to cite flashman's actions as amoral and a reason not to read the series in a thread where novels glorify the act of killing on a phenomenal scale. It is a hell of a lot easier to commit rape IRL than it is genocide or crazy future space torture. Also comparing the morality of a setting literally further from us than we are from the dawn of civilization to one about 100 years in the past is disingenuous at best. And then you get into the issues of space racism vs IRL racism - yeah I can safely say Flashman is a hell of a lot darker than the joke grimdarkness of 40k. Killing someone because they are in your way is horrific. Killing a planet due to a typo on the paperwork is hilarious.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:49
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bunnyofdoom posted:Cain has one flaw really, and that's incredibly low self-esteem. Amberley Vail even mentions that he's probably the best swordsman in the entire Segmentum and he isn't really aware of it.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:53
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pentyne posted:Amberley Vail even mentions that he's probably the best swordsman in the entire Segmentum and he isn't really aware of it. To be fair, Amberley is totally lovey dovey as poo poo when it comes to Cain so that might be a bit extreme. But he is really good at just about everything, except believing in himself.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:09
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pentyne posted:Amberley Vail even mentions that he's probably the best swordsman in the entire Segmentum and he isn't really aware of it. COMMISSAR CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM is a meme for a reason. Reading between the lines of the books leads to the conclusion that he not only has bigger balls than the Emperor when it comes to facing down threats, but he has some ridiculously overpowered melee skills to back said feats up. Keep in mind that this is the guy who mulches through chaos marines, high tier tyranids, and planet crushing psychics later on in his career (When he's an old man no less, for that last one.) like it's no big deal. All while whining and assuring the reader of his memoirs that he's actually an inept coward. He's definitely supposed to be one of the best human melee combatants in the setting. Especially given how encounters between commissars and chaos marines usually end. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 22:15
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Cain is basically a Big drat Hero, and he's the only person who doesn't know it.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:39
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Archonex posted:COMMISSAR CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM is a meme for a reason. Reading between the lines of the books leads to the conclusion that he not only has bigger balls than the Emperor when it comes to facing down threats, but he has some ridiculously overpowered melee skills to back said feats up. Both of those chaos marines was basically him exchanging some blows with a distracted predator playing with its prey and getting the wrong end of the stick. The first ate a few melta blasts and a squad worth of las gun fire, the second had just wrapped up getting shot to hell with some fortified heavy las cannon emplacements and a suicide vest attack from a slanshi cultist armed with krak grenades. In plastic mans talk, forgeworld had previously unveiled Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus (neither of which was as good as Angron) and at game day today unveiled Horus and the first of three Lorgars I'm only seeing unpainted Horus shots so far, he looks kinda thick, as in heavily over armored to the front. Like a codpiece that extends up to where his helmet would be, girded with steel. Lorgar I haven't seen, but descriptions call him "weedy" and say that this is Lorgar when he was preaching the divinity of the Emperor, and bulks up as it gets closer to the Heresy in those still to be released models
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Sep 29, 2013 23:10
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Fried Chicken posted:Both of those chaos marines was basically him exchanging some blows with a distracted predator playing with its prey and getting the wrong end of the stick. The first ate a few melta blasts and a squad worth of las gun fire, the second had just wrapped up getting shot to hell with some fortified heavy las cannon emplacements and a suicide vest attack from a slanshi cultist armed with krak grenades. The first marine was in an out and out duel with him until a soldier creeped around the side of the fight and put a melta blast through his side. The other one was a straight up Khornate berserker who had just bumrushed one of the most fortified cultist citadels on the planet and won. Both scenarios would usually at least lead to the commissar getting the poo poo murdered out of him before the chaos marine went down. And that's not getting into some of the other stuff he's done. Cain is basically a space marine or higher level combatant by the middle of his career when it comes to melee weaponry. He just doesn't have their their stamina or power armor. Archonex fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 23:19
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Cain does practice with a Techmarine for a portion of his career, when he's doing general staff stuff. He lands a hit one time, and the Techmarine keeps the mark on his armor as a memento. He's not superhuman, just really, really good.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:47
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VanSandman posted:It is a hell of a lot easier to commit rape IRL than it is genocide or crazy future space torture. Also comparing the morality of a setting literally further from us than we are from the dawn of civilization to one about 100 years in the past is disingenuous at best. And then you get into the issues of space racism vs IRL racism - yeah I can safely say Flashman is a hell of a lot darker than the joke grimdarkness of 40k. Killing someone because they are in your way is horrific. Killing a planet due to a typo on the paperwork is hilarious. Yeah ok, this is a good point and I get where you're coming from. I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison, and admittedly I did that badly. I guess what I was saying was that 40k novels do glorify war, which is a terrible thing to do, and something that good military sci fi tries not to. Even the best 40k novels see war as a game (unsurprisingly so). Anyway, I'll shut up about it, point taken etc etc Read Betrayer for the first time today, it's really very very good. Its actually the one BL novel I've ever read that shows the effects and implications of 'endless war'. Now why doesn't BL release them in normal format paperbacks for like six months after the hilariously huge print versions come out?
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Sep 30, 2013 00:33
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The thing about war is that it's not *always* a flat out "bad thing". Nobody blames Poland for going to war against Germany and Russia for example. Why is that relevant? Historical context of the authors. 40k started to take shape from comics published in the years following the British Empire's glorious defeat of an enemy that attacked them.... on the other side of the world, in a tiny little dot of an island. The setting is irrevocably attached to starting huge "defensive" wars over insults thrown from unimaginable distances. There's a strong irony implied here, in that a defensive war can be a major world power beating up a relatively small nation and calling it "defensive", in the same way that the Imperium trashes entire planets of people who wear the wrong hat and calls it "for the good of Mankind".
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Sep 30, 2013 01:20
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Arquinsiel posted:The thing about war is that it's not *always* a flat out "bad thing". Nobody blames Poland for going to war against Germany and Russia for example. Why is that relevant? Historical context of the authors. Also the overall idea of a huge decaying empire hopelessly mired in corruption and slowly falling apart due to its own size and crumbling institutions and infrastructure. Pretty familiar to Britons of that era as well as increasingly to modern Americans. Then added to this is every stereotype about the Dark Ages being mired in superstition, witch-hunts, and endless casual violence. Then as they went on they added in more fascist themes about perpetual war and being beset by inhuman enemies on all sides and moral corruption from within, used to justify genocide and massive repression. And then there's the whole idea of a massive bureaucratic government where every branch has overlapping authority over the others and barely chugs along, which is actually pretty familiar for people who've worked in places like China or other large developing countries. It's a pessimistic parody combining all the worst parts of human history. Which is why it's funny. It's exactly the opposite of all the hopeful, optimistic views of the future found in standard sci-fi. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 01:28
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The part I love most about the darkness of the setting is that it's a pretty faithful throwback to parts of the Dark Ages, in which most people were illiterate, replaceable peasants ruled by nobility and lived hard, short lives, religion was fiercely enforced and had its inquisitions, knights (Astartes) were a class unto themselves and utilized heavy plate to give them an immense advantage over everyone else on the battlefield, people had a constant fear of evil things lurking in the darkness and thirsting for their souls. Lots of little things like that. Those elements don't make up the most common sorts of sci-fi settings, which is one of the reasons I think this one is such an interesting mix.
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Oct 1, 2013 02:20
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Arquinsiel posted:The thing about war is that it's not *always* a flat out "bad thing". Nobody blames Poland for going to war against Germany and Russia for example. Why is that relevant? Historical context of the authors. I completely disagree. Its almost fact now (although they wont admit it) that the British knew there was oil in the vicinity of the islands, making the “tiny little dot of a island” akin to Great Forge World. However this was a Forge world on the fringes of a dwindling empire and the evil xenos tyrant (who was known for putting his own citizens in concentration camps) did not even think the Imperium of man would respond with military action, and thought the war would be good for the moral of his people. The Imperium of man did respond however, and with bolter and chainsword they purged the greasy xenos from the island. However in all seriousness I don’t think Warhammer was written at all with real world events in mind. The writers used real world influences in their books for naming and stylisations, but to suggest that they were not science fiction nerds and actually wrote book upon book of bolter porn to deliver some ironic left wing anti-war message is ludicrous.
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Oct 1, 2013 10:07
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CreepyGuy9000 posted:I completely disagree. Its almost fact now (although they wont admit it) that the British knew there was oil in the vicinity of the islands, making the “tiny little dot of a island” akin to Great Forge World. However this was a Forge world on the fringes of a dwindling empire and the evil xenos tyrant (who was known for putting his own citizens in concentration camps) did not even think the Imperium of man would respond with military action, and thought the war would be good for the moral of his people. The Imperium of man did respond however, and with bolter and chainsword they purged the greasy xenos from the island. The thought of "Warmaster Thatcher" is so very British comic book.
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Oct 1, 2013 10:11
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CreepyGuy9000 posted:The writers used real world influences in their books for naming and stylisations, but to suggest that they were not science fiction nerds and actually wrote book upon book of bolter porn to deliver some ironic left wing anti-war message is ludicrous.
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Oct 1, 2013 10:31
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Dog_Meat posted:The thought of "Warmaster Thatcher" is so very British comic book. I believe you mean "Warboss Mag Uruk Thraka".
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Oct 1, 2013 12:53
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Arquinsiel posted:Are you familiar with sci-fi as a wider literary genre at all? That's EXACTLY what they were doing. Rick Priestly has even mentioned it in interviews around the place. This. WH40K was very much inspired as a satirical response to Thatcherism. Whether or not it succeeded is a different question, but just because someone's a 'science-fiction nerd' it doesn't mean they can't use subtext. In fact, as Arquinsiel says, that's exactly what they often do.
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Oct 1, 2013 13:22
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Cream_Filling posted:I believe you mean "Warboss Mag Uruk Thraka". Oh my god.
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Oct 1, 2013 13:22
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Cream_Filling posted:I believe you mean "Warboss Mag Uruk Thraka". How. The gently caress. Did I not pick up on this?
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Oct 1, 2013 13:26
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Cream_Filling posted:I believe you mean "Warboss Mag Uruk Thraka".
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Oct 1, 2013 13:32
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First Monkeigh. Now this.  CreepyGuy9000 posted:I completely disagree. Its almost fact now (although they wont admit it) that the British knew there was oil in the vicinity of the islands, making the “tiny little dot of a island” akin to Great Forge World. However this was a Forge world on the fringes of a dwindling empire and the evil xenos tyrant (who was known for putting his own citizens in concentration camps) did not even think the Imperium of man would respond with military action, and thought the war would be good for the moral of his people. The Imperium of man did respond however, and with bolter and chainsword they purged the greasy xenos from the island. I thought the whole "Hey, the Malvinas have oil" thing popped up a few years later. "Signals of War" mentions the Brits considered it a backwater before the war - this book was co-authored by Lawrence Freedman.
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