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Snowdens Secret posted:I'm curious if you've ever stepped foot in an even remotely modern commercial airliner. The level of testing and QA that goes into any sort of safety equipment on an airliner is very many times more stringent than for a car. Plus modern airliners have multiple backup hydraulic systems for the control surfaces, etc. I just don't see how the comparison is valid when flying is so different from driving.
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Oct 9, 2013 15:12
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rscott posted:The level of testing and QA that goes into any sort of safety equipment on an airliner is very many times more stringent than for a car. Plus modern airliners have multiple backup hydraulic systems for the control surfaces, etc. I just don't see how the comparison is valid when flying is so different from driving. The cars have physical backup systems for both the steering and brakes, too.
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Oct 9, 2013 15:14
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Erays3r posted:
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Oct 9, 2013 15:48
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rscott posted:The level of testing and QA that goes into any sort of safety equipment on an airliner is very many times more stringent than for a car. Plus modern airliners have multiple backup hydraulic systems for the control surfaces, etc. I just don't see how the comparison is valid when flying is so different from driving. The point being that the automated control systems are constantly making adjustments without pilot input and no one sits in the back wracked with panic over the computers.
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Oct 9, 2013 15:53
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At least it's not black so people might have a chance of seeing it at night before slamming into it.
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Oct 9, 2013 15:55
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NoWake posted:I found myself saying "dude, just stop" at each one of those VW pictures. That car is awesome.
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Oct 9, 2013 16:14
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11BulletCatcher posted:I drive like an old lady... until I see a nice, beautiful straight with no traffic. But Florida traffic is scary man, people just weave through lanes like they are in a race or something. Not so terrible car stuff? Having the local mechanic find a brake-drum to brake-drum replacement in the local junkyard and fix my car so I could carry on, wayward son, for $110. On a Sunday morning. In Nebraska City, Nebraska. Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 17:08
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wallaka posted:Hate to break it to you, but nobody really cares about the originality of a four-door, especially something as easily-reversible as that. Get a drum-drum dual master cylinder and maybe you won't plow into a Yaris and kill yourself the next time a single wheel cylinder pops. I DD'd a four-wheel-drum brake car for a while and it was the single best thing I did to it. WHo cares what others think, it's about what I think. For me driving an old car is about driving it as it was meant to be driven at time of manufacture. I'm complaining objectively. I drive superbly with what's in place, but I know just how superior discs would be. But I can't bring myself to do the conversion. 11BulletCatcher fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 17:48
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Kenny Rogers posted:Some days I miss my South Florida commute. 23 miles from WPB to Boca Raton. There were a few memorable days that the flow of traffic in the fast lane of I-95 southbound was north of 90 MPH. Fastest I ever did that commute was on one of those days. 22 minutes flat. Keeping on topic with the Terrible Car Stuff - I did it in a 1978 Dodge Diplomat that I'd bought in Oregon for $500. Driving to Florida, the muffler straight up fell off on the interstate in Idaho, and the whole rear end poo poo the bed in Nebraska City, Nebraska.
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Oct 9, 2013 17:54
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11BulletCatcher posted:WHo cares what others think, it's about what I think. For me driving an old car is about driving it as it was meant to be driven at time of manufacture. I'm complaining objectively. I drive superbly with what's in place, but I know just how superior discs would be. But I can't bring myself to do the conversion.  Superbly coasting into the back of a stopped car.This discussion made me do some googling... looks like Studebaker switched their Larks to dual cylinders in 63, but it's apparently pretty easy to convert a 62 (mine) to dual cylinder. I guess that goes on the list.
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Oct 9, 2013 18:21
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11BulletCatcher posted:WHo cares what others think, it's about what I think. For me driving an old car is about driving it as it was meant to be driven at time of manufacture. I'm complaining objectively. I drive superbly with what's in place, but I know just how superior discs would be. But I can't bring myself to do the conversion. I understand the desire to keep things stock and as they were. I do. However, when it comes to something that's at the absolute forefront of the operation (and safety) of the vehicle, why would you not try to improve that? If you don't want to go with big crazy 14 inch rotors and 4-pot calipers, that's fine. But I've driven manual-drum cars before. I had one as a DD for about four years. It sucks. If I had the money at the time, I'd have jumped at discs in a heartbeat. At least for the fronts. Again, I totally understand that you want the whole experience of driving a classic car. I used to drive one every day and I just got another one. It puts a big stupid smile on my face every time I get in it. BUT, there is no need to punish yourself and put both yourself and your car at risk for the sake of preserving a feeling of nostalgia. If GM thought it was prudent to put discs on it from the factory, I'm sure they would have. Disc brakes existed when your car was manufactured and I'm sure there were guys swapping them in when they were only a couple years old. I'm really not trying to come down on you about this. I just don't want to see a nice classic car wadded up because of terrible factory brakes. PS: Drum brakes loving suck dick to work on and that should be motivation enough in itself.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:47
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I can't stand drums, but I'll take rear drums with a traditional parking brake cable setup over having to repair rear drum-in-hat parking brakes any day of the week. I still prefer discs in both cases, but my motivation to do a rear disc swap is substantially diminished by those drat parking brake parts. Speaking of which, son of a bitch I am going to have to fix that on the truck before I can get an inspection sticker on it. DAMMIT, I forgot about that.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:54
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Hell, I was just talking about switching to dual-circuit drums instead of the fruit jar master cylinder, so you don't lose all your brakes when the wheel cylinder shits the bed. Again. I didn't mention disc brakes at all. It's literally two bolts.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:56
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Boaz MacPhereson posted:Again, I totally understand that you want the whole experience of driving a classic car. I used to drive one every day and I just got another one. It puts a big stupid smile on my face every time I get in it. BUT, there is no need to punish yourself and put both yourself and your car at risk for the sake of preserving a feeling of nostalgia. This is exactly how I feel. Every time I turned the key on my old truck and the tired 350 coughed into life I grinned. But the lack of stopping ability never really gave me that feeling, personally.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:57
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KozmoNaut posted:The cars have physical backup systems for both the steering and brakes, too. This is true. However, I can assure you, the physical backups are WORTHLESS. I could barely navigate a prius through the parking lot onto my hoist with failed brakes and steering, let alone in an emergency situation. What they bank on is that the chances of both systems failing simultaneously are astronomically low. The steer- and brake-by-wire systems are made to standards many times higher than the rest of the car and I have no fear about driving one; taxi drivers routinely rack up over 300,000km's on their prius without any failure at all, let alone something as significant as brakes/steering/hybrid transaxle. A few years ago there was a debacle about 20 series prii having steering sensor failures that would lead to the car swerving randomly on the highway. The problem was the component was not a Nippon-denso original, they were locally produced in the states. Only American cars were affected.
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Oct 9, 2013 20:04
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Boaz MacPhereson posted:I understand the desire to keep things stock and as they were. I do. However, when it comes to something that's at the absolute forefront of the operation (and safety) of the vehicle, why would you not try to improve that? If you don't want to go with big crazy 14 inch rotors and 4-pot calipers, that's fine. But I've driven manual-drum cars before. I had one as a DD for about four years. It sucks. If I had the money at the time, I'd have jumped at discs in a heartbeat. At least for the fronts. My 58 already has full 4wheel disk conversion and dual circuit master cylinder. One of the few things I have actually finished on the drat car. gently caress adjusting drum brakes. My 68 that I built in highschool back in 92 had front disks that I gibbed from a ghia. Best thing you can do for a car is disk brakes, no matter where or how fast you drive it. There's always going to be a situation where some fuckhead cuts you off and turns or slams on their brakes and if it hasn't happened yet, it's just a matter of time. That reminds me also. I've actually been in a car that had a single wheel cylinder go and leak all the fluid. Buddy who was driving put the pedal to the floor and yelled NO BRAKES! BRACE FOR IMPACT. Luckily we were going slow enough to use the parking brake to slow us down enough that nothing other than his hood got hosed.
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Oct 9, 2013 20:22
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Dick Diggler posted:This is exactly how I feel. Every time I turned the key on my old truck and the tired 350 coughed into life I grinned. But the lack of stopping ability never really gave me that feeling, personally. Same. I love it when the 50 year old engine starts up quicker than my 3 year old Honda. Love the smell and feel of the old car. But I also want it to be reliable, and I'll take steps to make it that way at the cost of perfect original condition. The original driving experience was brand new brakes and cylinder and brake lines, not 50 year old worn out hardware... which is why I need to call up the Studebaker shop across the bay and see if they have any dual cylinders around. Edit: gently caress, forgot that the e-brake doesn't work; I never use it so it's easy to forget about. I probably shouldn't even drive this thing until I fix one or ideally both of those problems.
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Oct 9, 2013 20:45
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veedubfreak posted:NO BRAKES! BRACE FOR IMPACT. Luckily we were going slow enough to use the parking brake to slow us down enough that nothing other than his hood got hosed. 
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Oct 9, 2013 21:57
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11BulletCatcher posted:WHo cares what others think, it's about what I think. For me driving an old car is about driving it as it was meant to be driven at time of manufacture. I'm complaining objectively. I drive superbly with what's in place, but I know just how superior discs would be. But I can't bring myself to do the conversion. Hey I'm with you on this one, there aren't a lot of old cars out there that are in operating condition with all original parts. I've kept my pickup on 4 drums (they're huge), and don't worry about it. There's a lot of surface area to contact and they pull themselves tight. However, at 9mpg, I don't daily drive it either. I also get that it's less safe to drive on the old one pot braking system, as a failure is much more catastrophic. I hope you put some serious inspection on those brake parts when you do anything related. Stuff breaks down over time, like rubber seals, but also the cylinders and lines rust out and break down. My wheel cylinders in the front had deep pitting around the spring, so out they came.
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Oct 9, 2013 23:31
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Keeping the drums is one thing, but I'd be putting a dual circuit master in immediately, especially since it only requires modifications to the plumbing and bolting a different M/C on, one that was probably OEM on later years of the same model. Even a failure of one circuit in a dual circuit brake system can gently caress you pretty hard at the wrong moment, I don't ever want to have a single-circuit system fail on me.
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Oct 10, 2013 00:27
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bigbillystyle posted:I got stuck in Lincoln, NE, twice, while traveling cross country and found that the people of Nebraska (or at least the people in the Lincoln area) were some of the nicest people I had ever met. I was totally screwed since the truck I was driving picked up a tank of fuel that had such a low sulfur content 7 of the 8 injectors were total junk but the people there were offering me rides here and there and where to get the best hotel for cheap and basically anything and everything without even asking. I've been stuck in situations before just totally on my own or maybe an oh hey we can take you to X, Y, or Z for $50 but the people there were going way out of their way to help me out. Welcome to Flyover Country. We're nice.
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Oct 10, 2013 00:34
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Does this count as terrible car stuff? It has 4 wheels... Screen cap from Myrtle Beach SC's Black Bike Week 2K13 video.  Those are spinners, of course.
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Oct 10, 2013 02:19
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NoWake posted:I found myself saying "dude, just stop" at each one of those VW pictures. I...I like the interior.
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Oct 10, 2013 02:25
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angryhampster posted:Welcome to Flyover Country. We're nice. ON Topic, but old: $243,000 Y2K E320 CDI on eBay. I wonder how many ebay accounts got zapped for serious fakebids. Even more than that, I wonder what the winning bid was. I can't find it anywhere, including on Murdo Guy's own website.
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Oct 10, 2013 02:34
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veedubfreak posted:Best thing you can do for a car is disk brakes, no matter where or how fast you drive it. There's always going to be a situation where some fuckhead cuts you off and turns or slams on their brakes and if it hasn't happened yet, it's just a matter of time. But drums will get a car stopped just fine. Where they tend to fall over are situations that require a lot of repeated braking, like perhaps spirited driving on twisties, or going down a mountain where engine braking isn't enough for some reason.
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Oct 10, 2013 02:58
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DILLIGAF posted:Does this count as terrible car stuff? It has 4 wheels... I don't see a single terrible thing in this picture. Edit: Okay, maybe that he's apparently driving it on the road and it doesn't look road legal.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:04
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General_Failure posted:But drums will get a car stopped just fine. Where they tend to fall over are situations that require a lot of repeated braking, like perhaps spirited driving on twisties, or going down a mountain where engine braking isn't enough for some reason. Or when it's raining and one drum getting wet will cause random wheel lockups or darting. Or when all four brakes are on one circuit, and the failure of a $15 part rebuilt by a 13-year old Malaysian indentured servant will cause all of your brakes to fail.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:09
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wallaka posted:Or when it's raining and one drum getting wet will cause random wheel lockups or darting. Or when all four brakes are on one circuit, and the failure of a $15 part rebuilt by a 13-year old Malaysian indentured servant will cause all of your brakes to fail. My c10 has all four drums and I have driven it plenty of times in the rain. Other than a stronger tendency to lock up it drives like every other vehicle I have ever owned.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:13
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Valt posted:My c10 has all four drums and I have driven it plenty of times in the rain. Other than a stronger tendency to lock up it drives like every other vehicle I have ever owned. So you're acknowledging the problem. I had a K10 with rear discs. The back end would lock up and slide out on any hard braking on wet surface.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:20
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wallaka posted:Or when it's raining and one drum getting wet will cause random wheel lockups or darting. Or when all four brakes are on one circuit, and the failure of a $15 part rebuilt by a 13-year old Malaysian indentured servant will cause all of your brakes to fail. Single circuit is just bad. No living person will argue that. If driving through standing water at enough speed and with too little clearance to properly react to hazards is your thing, sure. Yes they take more care to drive with, require more maintenance like adjustment and more special treatment like brake application after driving through water, and repeated or prolonged application can cause brake fade but they aren't inherently worse at stopping a vehicle. Like many older technologies they require different driving habits. I'm not putting them on the same ground as discs. I'm just saying that drum brakes aren't an instant death sentence. Mind you on a standard car I would take front discs any day. Rears I couldn't give a poo poo about either way. They both work fine.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:59
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angryhampster posted:So you're acknowledging the problem. Yes it does not have four wheel discs so they will tend to lock up easier. But they don't do it in a manner that going to send you flying off the road. Either way they work and the truck stops, its 46 years old so I expect that it will be terrible. I'm not defending all wheel drum brakes, obviously they will be worse then anything with discs on it. I'm just saying its not some kind of instant death sentence.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:20
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Valt posted:I'm just saying its not some kind of instant death sentence. That was a little weird.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:37
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Brakechat: I agree that the potential for failure of a single-circuit system makes me a little twitchy, but on something driven occasionally as opposed to a daily driver, I'd accept that good maintenance should keep things safe enough. I've had a master cylinder fail on me, and I completely agree, it is not fun. The cheapo components problem is a fair issue, though, as a lot of the time on older stuff, you end up in a situation where the only things you can get are 40+ year old NOS parts or cheap sweatshop crap. Generally, I'd say that even if your brakes are average at best, as long as they are consistent in their performance, you can drive accordingly and make allowances for it, which you can't do if it's a gamble what you're going to get every time you hit the pedal. Agreed that it's more about reliability and repeatability than actual stopping power, as long as you're not talking about small, single-leading-shoe drums on a two-ton truck, the factory stoppers are most likely perfectly capable of locking the wheels if you really stomp on them. Especially given that something with fairly crap brakes most likely has fairly crap tyres.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:42
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Snowdens Secret posted:I'm curious if you've ever stepped foot in an even remotely modern commercial airliner. Techofetishists like you and Kenny Rogers are just as bad or worse than the people you obviously think are Luddites. Cars are such a different world from airliners and F16's just from a testing and maintenance perspective that it's ridiculous to conflate the two. And being willfully blind to the shortcomings drive-by-wire, ASC, brake-by-wire, etc is just as bad as ranting against them without understanding them. New tech is good, but throwing untested, brand new, complicated stuff all willy-nilly into cars results in things like 5 year old high end luxury cars being worth <50% of their original value because that poo poo breaks in the real world and nobody wants to deal with it. And teething problems when your software glitch causes the throttle to stick open and you can shut the motor off because it's not got a physical ignition switch.
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Oct 10, 2013 06:30
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aventari posted:Techofetishists like you and Kenny Rogers are just as bad or worse than the people you obviously think are Luddites. Oh you!  A 'software glitch' (whatever that even means) can't cause your throttle to stick open. Drive by wire has two entirely separate monitoring circuits for the accelerator pedal sensor and two separate circuits monitoring the actual throttle position. If the difference between those two voltages becomes anything other than whatever value the designer picked, the entire electronic throttle system immediately shuts down/goes into limp home where a physical spring holds the throttle open a small amount just to be able to creep the car out of harm's way. As for emergency shutoff, the ignition button on most push-button cars I've seen has roughly the same number of wires going into it as your physical ignition switch and has about the same stuck-on failure rate (read: almost loving never). But lets say your button fails and you can't stop the car. Luckily, if you mash the brake more than a certain amount while the engine ecu is giving it throttle, the esc system (a completely different system) realises that something isn't right, commandeers the engine and immediately cuts engine power. You don't even need to over-power the engine with the brakes like on an old car; it literally just stops making power. The argument you make about luxury cars is a valid one, but by and large most of the things that fail which noone wants to deal with are non-safety-critical systems. When was the last time you saw an airbag in a car equipped with a dozen of them go off randomly and kill someone? BUT THE COMPUTER GLITCHES THEY MIGHT MAKE IT HAPPEN!!! No. The car logs a code and a light comes up and you replace an expensive part. Noone gets hurt.
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Oct 10, 2013 06:59
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11BulletCatcher posted:WHo cares what others think, it's about what I think. For me driving an old car is about driving it as it was meant to be driven at time of manufacture. I'm complaining objectively. I drive superbly with what's in place, but I know just how superior discs would be. But I can't bring myself to do the conversion. Yeah, I just meant keeping the drums and replacing the master cylinder. I took the master cylinder off of a '69 Chevelle with 4-wheel drums, along with its proportioning block. Had to make a few lines and get some adapters, but it took me all of a weekend. You don't have to upgrade to Corvette C6Z brakes or anything. But you can. Those kits totally exist. It's just possible to do it cheaply and easily with factory parts, too. Raluek fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 07:04
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Remember when people posted pictures in this thread? Me too. 
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Oct 10, 2013 07:14
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aventari posted:New tech is good, but throwing untested, brand new, complicated stuff all willy-nilly into cars Really? You think electronic throttles, electric power steering, electronic breaking systems are untested? Some cackling lunatic in a white coat slaps some poo poo together after a coke-fuelled brainwave and throws it into 250,000 production cars? If you have a valid point to make without hyperbole or unfounded Bullshit please do so, otherwise shut up. E:  General terrible  Specific terrible, my trolley jack came with some fold up chocks. Car moved maybe an inch or two to cause this damage? Back to half-bricks I think. cakesmith handyman fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 07:17
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Cakefool posted:Really? Before you guys take this any further, people like Aventari learned about things like this in school: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 Embedded systems are frequently proprietary and some COTS systems often don't even have as much testing as even some open source software. Mistakes can and do happen.
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Oct 10, 2013 07:40
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Root Bear posted:Or they just really HATE anyone and everyone that works on their vehicles My hatch opens normally once in a blue moon, otherwise I have to climb in over the rear seats and pry the fucker. Really need to rip the entire mechanism out and see if I can shoehorn an early model 944 mech in. AS IT loving WORKS.
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