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Srice posted:I think the perfect example of this is Lolita. When Nabokov writes a story about a protagonist that's a pedophile, it's called brilliant since among other things, Nabokov could play the English language like a fiddle. But when a troper writes a story like that, it's unreadable garbage for a large variety of reasons. Actually, if you read the page on Lolita you'll know it's because they sympathize with Humbert Humbert.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:34
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Flesnolk posted:(Also, to be really nitpicky, the Bombadil/Barrow Downs stuff was actually really important. The latter moreso than the former, but still.) Kinda, but you could have handled it way, way faster and more concisely. I personally enjoy it, but there is a reason a lot of people don't. Hobbits get caught by barrow wights, magic man comes and saves them, magic man talks a bit and sends them on their way. That would not be Tolkien though.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:48
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ArchangeI posted:I'm not sure replacing "A brief history of the house of Not-Stark, from its founder to the present day" with "A brief treatise on the effects of lead-to-gold alchemy on the monetary market, with three graphs and five tables" is going to fix the basic problems tropers have with world building. If it did, then Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality would be the work to aspire to. It is the execution that is lacking, not the topic. That's not what I was suggesting at all, although I am laughing so hard if you think that tropers would bother doing any kind of research that doesn't involve watching lovely anime or Joss Whedon shows. Worldbuilding is about creating a documented record that you, as the author, can rely on to not only keep you out of continuity errors and plot holes, but also give your work the feel of a more "real" setting. That involves getting down and looking at the little details, which tropers ignore because they're too involved with trying to pen big sweeping epics. Or just talk about big sweeping epics without ever actually writing a Goddamn word of narrative. If your story has people throwing down solid gold coins for a fuckin' Happy Meal, then you've clearly not put any thought whatsoever into the economy of your world. You've put all your effort into thinking about the "important" stuff, like how Dread Lord Nigel was slain at the Battle of Smogbluster, and nothing about the ubiquitous details that will be turning up all the time in your story. Paying for everything in gold is unrealistic to the point where not even Dungeons & Dragons will resort to that poo poo. Readers will think "how the gently caress is this dude carrying around what must amount to six tons of bullion in his pocket" and they will be wholly justified in caring more about that than the last words of Dread Lord Nigel as he cursed the Jockstrap of Justice that had pierced his invincible armour. That's why tropers fail at worldbuilding. They have no loving clue what worldbuilding is about. They think it needs to be a huge-rear end article on the backstory of why some jerk needs to collect the Nine Rubies of Power. Or a huge explanation on why the world is filled with little anime elves who only look underage and really they're 10,000 years old I swear. Putting thought into money is fun. Coming up with neat little details is fun. But it's fun like winning a tennis match is fun: you have to put in the hours and hours of practice to get any good at it. Tropers don't have the patience to learn how to write, which is why they're tropers, and why their worldbuilding is pure poo poo. Trust me when I say that the little, seemingly-inconsequential details of a world are often the most interesting to find out about, and the most interesting to create in the first place. But no troper is ever going to figure that out because there's no way to understand real writing just by dissecting anime and fanfiction.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:56
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Fuego Fish posted:You've put all your effort into thinking about the "important" stuff, like how Dread Lord Nigel was slain at the Battle of Smogbluster, and nothing about the ubiquitous details that will be turning up all the time in your story. But you don't get it! Dread Lord Nigel is a Type D Cynical Jademonkey that has the same personality as that dumbass Blockbuster manager who still charged me late fees even though I brought back my Viper GTS DVD 6 minutes before the cutoff! That's why he's from the ancient order of necrochronomancers that was created by Tsu-tulpa-tan over 15 millenia ago in the alternate dimension that hinthint turns out to be EARTH!!! Anyway, I'm wat beyond that gold stuff, batsu - we all use nanobots made of platinum that we can pass through the pores of our skin but that means to get mugged you cut off a person's entire arm!! The first mugging ever recorded was by a superhacker that was able to reprogram the nanobots using 40 different types of computers and ironically was programed in KOBOL (get it? like COBOL and kobolds!!!), but he totally knew what he was doing and was able to hack the planet!
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Oct 15, 2013 17:24
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Dude, stop spoiling MGS5. 
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Oct 15, 2013 23:35
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Let's talk about what Troper's think of fantasy, and how to write it, following their amazing page for writing advice: So You Want to/Write a Heroic Fantasy.quote:Necessary Tropes I can't imagine anything more boring than read pages on pages of some Troper sperging about his magic system to "show his work." Lord of the Rings isn't good because we know exactly how Gandalf's magic works - we don't, because its loving magic and the whole idea is that Gandalf evokes awe and mystery. Same goes with Harry Potter - they do make the point about 'rules of transfiguration' but the only time that ever comes up is when its for narrative tension (Hermione can't conjure up food when they're hungry, etc.) As a general rule, you shouldn't be sperging about magic systems unless the actual rules themselves are important to the plot or the themes (i.e. Bartimaeus Trilogy, where you care about the rules because the whole thing is deliberately akin to slavery) and even then, you only call attention to it when its important. quote:You'll need to do some worldbuilding. A lot of worldbuilding. Particularly if you are going for a series. Since you are essentially describing a world that none of your readers can lay their eyes upon, readers of this genre expect you to include a map within the first few pages of your book. Build up the environments of your world, as well as its ecosystems, the cultures that inhabit it, and their history. Don't worry if it doesn't seem like all this will go well with the book — that's what writing the separate world guide is for. Yeah. These people think that you 100% must have pages and pages of history written out for a fantasy novel. I think this speaks for itself. quote:Potential Subversions  "See, my book is better because instead of elves I have kappas and instead of Humans I have wendigo. The fact that my book is completely and utterly dull as gently caress in no way detracts from the fact that I have kappas!quote:Suggested Themes and Aesops Yep, they have zero ideas for themes, but plots, they got you covered! Tropers don't write to discuss themes and issues - they write to masturbate over how original they are. Honestly its probably for the best that nothing they come up with ever gets started - its complete and utter pointless drivel either way.
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Oct 16, 2013 01:45
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Possible plots include My Most Recent D&D campaigns, numbers 1-4.
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Oct 16, 2013 01:54
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Improbable Lobster posted:Possible plots include My Most Recent D&D campaigns, numbers 1-4. Well that pretty much sums up the attitude they have towards writing: They' don't want to write books, they want to make Tabletop RPG campaigns. That's why they spend so much time going over the bullshit history of their settings and breaking everything down into mathematical formulas and no time worrying about characters. It's also telling that their only concept of worldbuilding is doing the whole Tolkien thing and not, say, fleshing out characters in a more mundane setting. Every story needs one to worldbuild to some degree, whether it's coming up with an entire nation or just figuring out where a character in your story buys his groceries. But they have no concern for how the poo poo they come up with actually relates to people.
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Oct 16, 2013 02:16
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Sorry, no, world-building is all that matters so please help these tropers with theirs:quote:An idea for a movie popped into my head while reading the Black Dude Dies First page; what about making a movie with an All-Star Cast featuring the most prominent black actors in the film industry? We're talking Morgan Freeman, Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Viola Davis, Rosario Dawson, Denzel Washington, and any more you care to add. And then I went over to the Blaxploitation page, and thought, "Why not make it a Deconstruction of the Blaxploitation genre?" quote:The novel I'm working on is set in a post-apocalyptic steampunk future in a new version of the old Five Points neighbourhood in lower Manhattan, with the Worth Street, Mott Street and Park Row (with Oliver Street and East Broadway Street) intersection as the basis of the Five Points, intersecting with the Bowery. quote:I have a story in draft form which is historical fantasy focusing on a conflict similar to the ones in all those books and movies where the hero joins the French Foreign Legion and finds himself digging trenches and fighting hostile natives in the middle of the desert. So, not exactly "Lawrence of Arabia". More like Beau Geste.
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Oct 16, 2013 02:35
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World-building is good, and a necessary part of some genres. It's not so good when you do it to the exclusion of all else. At that point it becomes just faffing around with your own magical fantasy world and is not at all productive. It is very pleasant but if you do it too much, it ultimately becomes pretending to be a cool writer, rather than actually being a cool writer. Which is how, as has been said again and again, Tropers like to imagine themselves: they want to be a writer, but they don't actually want to write.
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Oct 16, 2013 03:17
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Then again, there are some (some) books where you're mainly going to get world-building almost exclusively. Like, uh....... Sourcebooks for P&P games, and... And... Those Harry Potter sidebooks, and... 
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Oct 16, 2013 03:22
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Regalingualius posted:Then again, there are some (some) books where you're mainly going to get world-building almost exclusively. Warhammer 40000 supplements. Don't look at the Trope Page for 40K.
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Oct 16, 2013 03:25
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Regalingualius posted:Then again, there are some (some) books where you're mainly going to get world-building almost exclusively. 1984?
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Oct 16, 2013 03:31
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Today in my British Literature class, a girl was doing a presentation on The Remains of the Day. Her presentation focused on the "loyal servant trope." I tensed up a little when I first heard trope, but I told myself that trope is indeed a real literary concept and doesn't necessarily mean TV Tropes. But then she started saying that this trope came in many variations like "battle butler" and "sycophant servant", which sounded suspiciously like TV Tropes bullshit. And sure enough, they are! Then she went on to say that the relationship between Stevens and Lord Darlington was totally like the relationship between Quirrell and Voldemort, along with a few more Harry Potter references and "showed an example" by playing a clip from A Very Harry Potter Musical. Tropers in real life. It's not pretty.
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Oct 16, 2013 03:42
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Regalingualius posted:Then again, there are some (some) books where you're mainly going to get world-building almost exclusively. You'd think tropers would be all over this sort of thing. Monte Cook (who is admittedly as big as big names get in writing RPG sourcebooks) had multiple tie-in media in the works for his new RPG setting, Numenera, before he even released the stupid thing. You're not going to get famous doing it, but there's clearly a (niche) demand for people who can build world. There's even plenty of online communities dedicated to building world, full of people just as obsessive over meaningless details.
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Oct 16, 2013 04:15
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quote:"Worldbuilding" 
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Oct 16, 2013 05:18
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Another thing regarding world building. Your world cannot be unchangable. My favorite troper writing conundrum was the guy that couldn't get to the end of the story because the hero couldn't afford enough healing potions. I think that this stuff actually stems from the obsession they have with fitting everything into neat little boxes. Once something's a Trope, it's that Trope, and the way that TVTropes works means that it's always going to be that way. For instance, for the two weeks I thought TVTropes was a fun wiki I added a note to a tabletop game's page. It was just a clarification on the chapter on Hell or something. But apparently some Tropers disagreed with me. Due to their no notability, only nice critique, don't be a jerk code of conduct they would never delete my addition or outright say that it was wrong. The thing became a mess of examples and justifications being thrown into the conversation until what was an eight word note had paragraphs of text. Because what I added was part of the trope now it couldn't be squashed outright, so they had to work around it. When you look at how they worldbuild they can't really break out of that mindset. When anyone else writing genre fiction world builds the world building gets edited at least as much as the narrative. Entire mountains move because you need a representation of an overbearing presence in Chapter Four. In a reading session with your friends/editor something comes up that's a better way of going about your descent into madness so the City of Shadows is now the City of Mirrors. All the magic is necromancy because your book has a theme about social inequality and you think it illustrates this better to have serfs know that their landlords will sometimes just kill them in order to make a self-lighting torch. Tropers, on the other hand, will jam entire chapters into the fiction so that Billy McWishfullfiller can walk his rear end to a completely new city so this scene plays out. His magical rules are just pages and pages of how much bag guano you need to create a 10 ft fireball at 450 degrees Fahrenheit and he can't defy them even for the cliche "That's impossible!" moment. And that's if he writes it.
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Oct 16, 2013 05:24
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The thing about world building also, is that in order to be done really well it requires a great deal of knowledge and research and the examples posted pretty clearly show that these people don't really comprehend that, but think that they can do adequate world-building just by having consumed a bit of fiction or because they are describing an alternate universe version of their neighborhood their existing knowledge is adequate. For example this guy: quote:I have a story in draft form which is historical fantasy focusing on a conflict similar to the ones in all those books and movies where the hero joins the French Foreign Legion and finds himself digging trenches and fighting hostile natives in the middle of the desert. So, not exactly "Lawrence of Arabia". More like Beau Geste. is all hung upon whether magic carpets could compete with dirigibles when he should be hitting the library to read up extensively on actual North African countries, not just their mythology, but their architecture, city layout, geography, politics, and many more things before he can start to extrapolate from the real life version of Algeria or Morocco to a fantasy version of those countries. But instead he's just gonna watch a few cool movies, maybe read the wiki pages for Arabian Nights and go from there. quote:The novel I'm working on is set in a post-apocalyptic steampunk future in a new version of the old Five Points neighbourhood in lower Manhattan, with the Worth Street, Mott Street and Park Row (with Oliver Street and East Broadway Street) intersection as the basis of the Five Points, intersecting with the Bowery. I just watched Gangs of New York (or more likely Copper these days) and want to do a future steampunk version of that. I'm just gonna go off what I saw in the movie/show so all I really need to know is how our political system and social structure might change in a post-apocalyptic future. I'll just ask some tropers in a forum, that should probably be sufficient.
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Oct 16, 2013 05:47
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Razorwired posted:Another thing regarding world building. Your world cannot be unchangable. It's like the notion of "canon". Everything has to be canon; deviating from the established norm is strictly verboten. You could make the greatest comic ever written, and tropers would just bicker and moan about whether or not it fits into the Marvel universe. Because they don't care about writing. They don't give the slightest thought as to why someone would write. They just want to be "writers", those tortured artists who will one day get the respect and recognition they deserve--only they don't want to put in any of the work, so they just imitate their favorite writers without understanding why they even like those writers. I don't know which thread it came from, but someone hit the nail on the head when they described TvTropes as "cargo cult media."
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Oct 16, 2013 05:48
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TinFoilJoy posted:Today in my British Literature class, a girl was doing a presentation on The Remains of the Day. Her presentation focused on the "loyal servant trope." I tensed up a little when I first heard trope, but I told myself that trope is indeed a real literary concept and doesn't necessarily mean TV Tropes. But then she started saying that this trope came in many variations like "battle butler" and "sycophant servant", which sounded suspiciously like TV Tropes bullshit. And sure enough, they are! Then she went on to say that the relationship between Stevens and Lord Darlington was totally like the relationship between Quirrell and Voldemort, along with a few more Harry Potter references and "showed an example" by playing a clip from A Very Harry Potter Musical. Ugh that is awful. The Remains of the Day is a really good book! Boiling your analysis down to "it has a butler in it" is terrible and does it a huge disservice. I looked over the entry for the book and nothing stood out as particularly bad to me except for this one: quote:British Stuffiness: Deconstructed I think at this point if something exists, it is a deconstruction.
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Oct 16, 2013 06:13
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Who wants to role play with the tropers?quote:Kyoko; Marshes of Ia-Kong
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Oct 16, 2013 06:21
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crowfeathers posted:
Is it because Sazh
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Oct 16, 2013 08:47
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Sorry for the lack of direct content here, but I do actually enjoy reading the opinions on writing posted here (particularly as I've been getting back into writing again myself). I'm not really all that acquainted with Tolkien but I think another significant aspect of his fantasy fiction is just having some sort of thoughtful subtext, which seems to be pretty lacking when people post extracts from Troper "world-building" stuff (i.e. Tom's Mindless Conflict thing). Like, people have dismissed me as a snob before when I've talked about the sorts of things I'm in to, but I also really like, say, '50s cinematic sci-fi for commenting on aspects of the Cold War, or how writers like Dick and Asimov used science in an imaginative, creative way to talk about the nature of humanity and what it means to be human, or how something like Robocop is a fantastical satire about contemporary law and capitalism. Sure, I like to just geek out over sillier stuff sometimes too, but unlike TV Tropes I don't claim to be an "academic resource" when I'm going down that alley. Who was it that kept saying that anyway, one of their forum mods I think? Also, one of the things I enjoy about Tolkien is the obvious cues he took from the world in which we live in ourselves, from rural Oxfordshire to Scandinavia and war-torn battlefields. I can't say I know exactly how he might have approached his work, but like Virginia Woolf or someone, he likely observed the world itself and wrote down little details in a notebook or something. I mean, forget being "renowned" on TV Tropes, that sort of thing to me is why Tolkien still feels lively in Oxford (there's a cool picture of him with C.S. Lewis in The King's Arms I think?). Tropers seem beyond little exercises like that... there was that person quoted earlier on who upon being told to "write what they know" responded, "So I just write about someone who masturbates all day?", and in the past others have responded to such advice all like, "Well, I don't believe in that because how would I write my epic fantasy/sci-fi piece then?". Go outside, note the hissing of leaves in the wind, or the withered patches of green dotted across a field, or the incessant sighing of traffic on the horizon, anything! Not only does it flex your writing muscles, but I feel like if Tolkien were around today he'd be doing stuff like that... and not charting TV Tropes for ways to smush together a DeadpanSnarker BrilliantButLazy NiceGuy with a NiceHat.
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Oct 16, 2013 13:16
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Hedgehog Pie posted:Sure, I like to just geek out over sillier stuff sometimes too, but unlike TV Tropes I don't claim to be an "academic resource" when I'm going down that alley. Who was it that kept saying that anyway, one of their forum mods I think? I believe that was Fighteer, who said he wanted TV Tropes to be taken seriously as an academic resource, while complaining about people over-thinking everything, being too critical and not taking all media at face value, or something like that.
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Oct 16, 2013 13:31
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Tolkien was a pretty great author, but it's definitely not controversial to say that he made a ton of bad decisions that he managed, through a combination of luck and skill, to not be hurt too much by and definitely isn't a person to emulate when it comes to technique. He also did heavily utilize his actual real-world knowledge, both his experiences in World War I (and his life in Oxford) and his intensive study of linguistics and mythology. So, you know, actual knowledge. Actual knowledge and research is important!
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Oct 16, 2013 13:31
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Mors Rattus posted:Tolkien was a pretty great author, but it's definitely not controversial to say that he made a ton of bad decisions that he managed, through a combination of luck and skill, to not be hurt too much by and definitely isn't a person to emulate when it comes to technique. The linguistics part can't be understated, as quite literally he invented 2 kinds of Elvish in his spare time, and then decided that he needed someone to speak these made up languages. His use of Old English to invent a lot of the names also means nearly everyone has a name that means something relevent to them. Eomer means "horse-famous" for example.
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Oct 16, 2013 13:51
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TinFoilJoy posted:Today in my British Literature class, a girl was doing a presentation on The Remains of the Day. Her presentation focused on the "loyal servant trope." I tensed up a little when I first heard trope, but I told myself that trope is indeed a real literary concept and doesn't necessarily mean TV Tropes. But then she started saying that this trope came in many variations like "battle butler" and "sycophant servant", which sounded suspiciously like TV Tropes bullshit. And sure enough, they are! Then she went on to say that the relationship between Stevens and Lord Darlington was totally like the relationship between Quirrell and Voldemort, along with a few more Harry Potter references and "showed an example" by playing a clip from A Very Harry Potter Musical. What did the teacher say? (Or were you the teacher?)
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Oct 16, 2013 15:39
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Apple Tree posted:What did the teacher say? (Or were you the teacher?) She's way too nice to rip someone apart in front of the class, but I imagine that girl is going to get some very interesting comments back with her grade.
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Oct 16, 2013 16:42
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TinFoilJoy posted:She's way too nice to rip someone apart in front of the class, but I imagine that girl is going to get some very interesting comments back with her grade. Is this a high school class, or a college course?
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Oct 16, 2013 17:56
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RazorBunny posted:Is this a high school class, or a college course? College. I think the girl was a sophomore or a junior, so I find it baffling that she could get that far in school and think that a presentation like that is okay.
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Oct 16, 2013 19:51
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Wow yeah. I was going to say if it was high school the teacher should take her aside and kindly explain to her that this sort of thing is unacceptable, but by the college level you pretty much have to willfully ignore academic standards to give a presentation like that. There was (and maybe is?) actually a course at my alma mater where the Harry Potter books are part of the curriculum. It was a critical theory class with a focus on modern popular literature. A lot of students sign up thinking it will be an easy class where they can sperg out about how Harry and Draco were totally loving each other, but it's taught by a prof who, although a fun person, takes the topic very seriously and expects a really high level of effort and analysis. There were a lot of requests to drop the class. This is a graduate level course, by the way, so it's even more amazing that people get that far without having some sense slapped into them. I wish I had taken it instead of the critical theory course I took, which focused heavily on Derrida and Foucault and made my brains ooze out my ears a little.
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Oct 16, 2013 20:35
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I once wrote a paper on the cosmology and religion of the Elder Scrolls games that analyzed its real world inspirations. It was dorky as hell, but the point is that pop culture analysis can work academically if you approach it with enough rigor to actually get something meaningful out of it. TV Tropes is entirely unsuited for something like that and seeing those poor Analysis tags at the top of every page is so sad. In other news though, our favorite
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Oct 16, 2013 23:25
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Djeser posted:In other news though, our favorite Didn't a past contest spawn that weird knife-porn story?
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Oct 16, 2013 23:32
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Asgerd posted:Didn't a past contest spawn that weird knife-porn story?  That whole contest was a heady brew of  ; I can't wait to see what this one holds.
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Oct 17, 2013 00:17
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Djeser posted:I once wrote a paper on the cosmology and religion of the Elder Scrolls games that analyzed its real world inspirations. I have a bit of an academic boner for intense pop culture analysis on topics that legitimate academia would in theory turn their noses up at, but for every paper like yours, you get a thousand "My Little Pony is a defense of Austrian economics." It shames me that this is what turns up when you look for it, especially since I think that, properly done, the next trend in academia could very easily be the uplift of "low" art. Your paper sounds like a blast to read, it just gets my goat that I can't write on gender in anime without feeling dirty.
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Oct 17, 2013 03:01
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The Remains of the Day is a goddamned masterpiece that unfolds beautifully and devastatingly. Read it someday. The movie version starring Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson is also really good. I checked out the page on the "Manic Pixie Dream Girl." This is the picture they use.  Have they seen Roman Holiday?
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Oct 17, 2013 03:20
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Djeser posted:In other news though, our favorite On one hand, it's a TVTropes writing contest, and that means nothing good will come of it. On the other hand, the theme of "write about events in a single location in the course of a single night" might actually ground things a little bit, and it seems to be based on a legitimate literature-analysis principle, so that's a mild positive, anyway? (Of course, every time someone says something positive about TVT, it turns out the people involved are all dog-raping kobold otherkin or something, so I'll let that thought go.) On the third hand, people are bitching about the deadline falling in the middle of NaNoWriMo, because OH NO MY WORD VOMIT. Hopefully this means big things are planned for November on TVT! 
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Oct 17, 2013 03:48
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Here's what TVTropes thinks about this really sad and definitely not funny comic about an abused child."TvTropes posted:
I can't even get through this whole comic without feeling really awful and sad, and this poor excuse for a human being finds this 'sickeningly funny'? Go gently caress yourself TvTropes.
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Oct 17, 2013 08:09
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Cruel and Unusual posted:Have they seen Roman Holiday? The answer for this is always no. If it ain't anime, rapey or pedophillic then they don't want anything to do with it. Testekill fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Oct 17, 2013 |
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Oct 17, 2013 08:26
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Cruel and Unusual posted:The Remains of the Day is a goddamned masterpiece that unfolds beautifully and devastatingly. Read it someday. The movie version starring Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson is also really good. Something to remember is that it's a wiki, so you can edit anything you want. Now, they hate anyone editing peoples' examples, but you can add things and noone will remove them unless there's an uproar about it. I expect someone put that picture in as a joke, and since noone knew what it was it stuck around.
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Oct 17, 2013 08:29
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