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DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?

Undead Unicorn posted:

She went on a twitter spree explaining why TvTropes wrong.

Way to not get the joke, friend.

On that note - do you have a link to the tweets, preferably in a more readable, archivey form?

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Apple Tree
Sep 8, 2013

Weldon Pemberton posted:

Out of interest, is there a legit literary term for what TvTropes calls "expy"/"no celebrities were harmed"? Obviously a story where the whole plot or theme is lifted from real life events is a roman a clef, but I want to know if there's a specific term for a single character based on a real person being put into an original situation. While I was revising for an exam on Restoration Comedy I wanted to have a handy word to use to explain that most of the rake characters are based on the earl of Rochester and the king, but didn't know any except for the dumb fake TVTropes ones. Obviously I didn't use them because that would have been retarded, but I really feel like there is some specific name for the phenomenon and google didn't help me find it.

I feel sorry for actual tropers though because they probably do this all the time (can't remember real literary terms because of browsing the site) and yet don't even see anything wrong with it.

'Portrait' or 'based on' is what most academics I've heard say.

Academia has technical terms for stuff that would be unwieldy to describe in detail - 'iambic pentameter' is tidier than 'It goes de-dum de-dum de-dum de-dum de-dum' - but on the whole, it tends not to create gratuitous terms. If you can say it in plain English, you don't need A Trope For That. Besides that, academics are well-read as a matter of course, so can understand that it's a thing that happens in more than one work of art without needing an insider term to feel smart for knowing that.

Razorwired
Dec 7, 2008

It's about to start!
So I'm doing a project on racism in comic books. Surely academic resource TVTropes can help me out by looking at other social issues in the medium:

quote:

thats a fairly good idea, but the problem is identifying sexisum. for a start, i dont consider red hood to be sexist. starfire is a promisculous slut, yes, but it makes sense for her new characterisation- she was a political slave for a militant race, now she is free to make her own descions, her own choices. if she wants to dress like that and have uncondition sex, that is her own descion. she is also the one in controll- she is the one who suggests it, not roy, and in the aftermath scene she is shown to have been clearly on top. heck, starfire says as much in the comic- "i am free to do what i want when i want". if anything, it could be assumed sexist against men by implying that all men want sex.
however, thats my oppinion on a very subjective matter- there are many people who will read it and think the point is that starfire is female, therefore only good for sex or something similar.
this handily covers up the real problem with red hood- good characterisation and background, applied to the wrong character. if lobdell (the writer) had used a new character instead of starfire (whom i rembere being a puppies-and-kittens-lets-all-be-friends type character from the cartoon), it might work better.
despite all this, i enjoyed the comic and will continue to follow it.

It's not sexist, it's in-character for her to be a slut :mrapig:

quote:

sorry, i have a tendancy to disscuse fictional characters and situations as if they were real. but still, my point is that with her new background, she is not out of character (unless she had been raped, at which point i would expect her to avoid all phyisical contact like the plague), so the writer isnt nessicalry writing her like that because hes sexist, but beacuse thats what that character is expected to if she was a real person in that situation.
also, i just thought of something else- innitialy, it looks like supergirl is wearing trousers, but she isnt, she has a leotard that leaves her legs bare up to the crotch (see issue #1, pg 13 for an egreious example), yet i have heard no word of controversy over it- is a busty 16 year old in a tight fitting leotard and legs up to my eyebrows realy more aceptable than a slutty space babe?

The guy goes on. He really can't make a comment on sexism without dropping the word slut. But he's totally not a misogynist, guys!

quote:

To be fair, that's not their fault. Starfire's been characterized that way for a long, long time. I can't recall if she started out that way in the original 80s series, but for as long as I've been reading comics, she's been pretty much a Good Bad Girl. It isn't the comic's fault that the character was Bowdlerized in order to reach a young market in the cartoon, but that's the problem you face when you adapt a character for specific audiences over and over again. Modern Batman, for example, is a mish-mash of all the different film, TV and radio adaptations that have existed over the years.

When someone brings up that Starfire from the Teen Titans cartoon was a popular character and that you could get a whole new market of fans by building on that characterization:

quote:

Honestly, neither of those options are very appealing. For one thing, if you're concerned about feminism, the Starfire of the cartoon was a hormone-addled Love Interest whose major characterization was having a crush on a boy and being socially awkward. I'm not saying it didn't work, but it's not exactly the pinnacle of three-dimensional characterization. Yes, she was popular, but that was for an entirely different audience.
Secondly, I'm not understanding why the scene we're talking about makes her a "ho-bag". She off-handedly offered someone a casual tryst. It's not like she walked into a room full of guys, threw off her clothes and challenged them to see how many of them she could fit at once. It's kind of a BLAM scene, especially since we're seeing it completely out of context, and I'm not saying it was the best way to illustrate her sexuality. However, as I said before, Starfire's sexuality has been a major part of the character for a LONG time and removing it just to regress her back to being a Moe doesn't strike me as feminist.
That's why I asked earlier: what could they have done to better characterize that without pandering to the base? No one ever gave me an answer.

Guys, making this comic character not a sexist pinup is hard. So since either side has mistakes let's just show the naked one.

Keromaru5
Dec 28, 2012

Pictured: The Wolf Of Gubbio (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
Ugh, now you're taking me back to arguments I've participated in on comic book message boards.

Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

:tvtropes: posted:

she is not out of character (unless she had been raped, at which point i would expect her to avoid all phyisical contact like the plague)
That's not how rape works. If furry webcomics have taught me anything it's that rape and/or abuse turns you into a wacky pervert.

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

So I've been playing the new Pokemon game and decided to see what TV Tropes had to say about how the series is sometimes dark and odd. Let's check the Pokemon Nightmare fuel page and see what examples we can find. I know it's low hanging fruit but I'm not even cherry picking, all these examples just came from the bottom folder.


quote:


The character "Imakuni?" (question mark included) in the Pokémon Trading Card Game for Game Boy is a pretty unnerving character who has scared quite a few kids, mostly because of his theme song, coupled with the lack of context: he's actually a cameo of a Japanese singer, and he is labeled as "Strange Lifeform Imakuni?" which indicates he is a some kind of space alien.



Oh how horrifying. It's a killer Picasso.

quote:

Razor Claw's description is "A wickedly sharp claw perfect for raking enemies. It allows a certain kind of Pokémon to evolve."; one of the definition of rake is "to claw at; to scratch". Now imagine doing that with sharp claws...

Oh no, sharp claws. This is a thing that will haunt me tonight.

quote:

In Black 2 and White 2, there's a Backpacker in the Lostlorn Forest who, if you answer yes to his question, gives you TM95, Snarl. He then starts on his way off and transforms into a Zoroark. That's pretty weird.

The entire implication there was that he was a Zoroark using its illusion ability. How is that scary?


quote:

Almia Castle in the second Pokémon Rangers game. An abandoned castle up north that's literally frozen. And it's kinda easy to get lost. Additionally, its kitchen is messy

Stuff of nightmares people.

quote:

In the Gen II games, the aptly-named Dark Cave can be accessed before getting Flash. It wouldn't be wise to do so, because it's easy to get stuck without knowing the way out.

And Rock Tunnel could be accessed without flash, what is your point? That you're scared of the dark in a childrens game?

quote:

In the Anime, the episode Electric Soldier Porygon was banned from ever airing again, due to a bright flashing background at one point in the episode that reportedly gave over 600 children siezures, talk about super-effective. To this day, Porygon has only ever shown up once more as a short appearance in one of the movies, and niether Porygon-2 or Porygon-Z have ever appeared in the anime or movies even once. This is most likely due to fear of outraged parents.

So it's scary because the episode caused seizures? That two minor monsters will never appear in the show or series? That parents will be angry if they appeared and it happened again?

Help me out here, I'm not sure that I follow you.

quote:

The Ancient Mew Card.



Terrifying.


quote:

Sturdy lets a Pokémon survive OHKO attacks like being frozen at absolute zero or having its internal organs drilled into mush... or even just a stupidly powerful attack. By that time in real life, the Pokémon would have gone beyond pain, barely coherent and screaming at you to make it stop.

Pokemon with sturdy are immune to OHKOs. :ssh:

quote:

Kakuna may look goofy, but cocoons look just like that.

Okay are they arguing that cocoons are scary? Because they're not.


Jesus, look at me sperg about what is scary in a pokemon game and what isn't. Although it might not be scary to me since I'm older than 10 years old and I'm not a shut-in.

Testekill fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Oct 20, 2013

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Testekill posted:



Oh how horrifying. It's a killer Picasso.

Where have I seen him before?



BARO! :argh:

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

Testekill posted:

So I've been playing the new Pokemon game and decided to see what TV Tropes had to say about how the series is sometimes dark and odd. Let's check the Pokemon Nightmare fuel page and see what examples we can find. I know it's low hanging fruit but I'm not even cherry picking, all these examples just came from the bottom folder.




Oh how horrifying. It's a killer Picasso.




That guy wasn't horrifying! Back in the day I used to go looking for him in that game because he was a card pinata. If you're scared of an easy match of cards with disproportionate rewards 'cause the guy has Mickey Mouse ears, you're beyond pathetic.

Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

quote:

Razor Claw's description is "A wickedly sharp claw perfect for raking enemies. It allows a certain kind of Pokémon to evolve."; one of the definition of rake is "to claw at; to scratch". Now imagine doing that with sharp claws...
You guys joke but you don't realize Pokemon are fighting each other. They could get hurt :ohdear:

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat

TinTower posted:

Where have I seen him before?



BARO! :argh:
What's a pop star like you doing in a hack like this? :heysexy:

cptn_dr
Sep 7, 2011

Seven for beauty that blossoms and dies


Testekill posted:

Oh no, sharp claws. This is a thing that will haunt me tonight.
Claws... Are for scratching. Horrific.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?

Djeser posted:

You guys joke but you don't realize Pokemon are fighting each other. They could get hurt :ohdear:

Pokemon aren't meant to fight! Not like this!

(Linkara in the background: NOT LIKE THIS!)

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

TinTower posted:

Where have I seen him before?



BARO! :argh:

Son of a bitch, I'd completely forgotten that there was a character based on Imakuni in Quartz.

Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

There is a thread in their writers' forum called Post Your Concept. I was expecting to see them practicing story pitches. I don't know why I was expecting that.

quote:

"It was 1906, and the Greater London Difference Engine was debating the ethics of radium dials with a sentient perpetual motion machine. Meanwhile, the world was ending."

Yes, it's another glorious Steampunk setting. This time, subtlety has been thrown overboard. This is Glue Some Gears On It, a bawdy love song with creepy stalker overtones to the Steampunk genre. It all started when Leonardo DaVinci got into the War of Gears against a fellow inventor, which turned the Renaissance into a clockpunk Forever War between the various European powers. Through a stiff upper lip and egregious use of time travel, Great Britain came out on top as the British Empire came to encompass the entire planet. However, things are about to go even further to crap than they were previously.

Reckless experimentation in Aetheric physics is slowly shunting the entire world into The Landfill along with Ireland, which was sent there 30 years prior. The only hope for the British Empire rest in an unholy abomination summoned into their world. An incomprehensible entity just as likely to destroy their world as save it: The writer. Well, a copy of the writer. However, there was some conflicting software issues, so the copy ended up... unhinged. Meanwhile, the real writer tries to reign in the situation as his (my) story goes off the rails.

It is a mess of meta with a chest-height fourth wall lacking OSHA compliance, and frankly it sounded like a good idea at the time.
Points for knowing your audience. Idiot nerds would be all loving over a Lovecraftian steampunk meta book.

quote:

My story Archmage Reborn takes place in a world known as The Haven by its inhabitants. It is very Earth-like, though there are differences such as a golden-colored moon and that the world's landmass is a sort of "Pangea", one large landmass, though there are two separate landmasses that are kept secret from the rest of the world.

In The Haven's backstory 4, 000 years ago there was a terrible battle known as the "Enchanter's War" between humans who were gifted with the ability to use magic and [[Muggles those who could not.]] It started because the magically gifted (known as "Empowered") finally grew tired of hiding their power and decided to coexist and create a world without the need for a Masquerade. This backfired horribly and they were persecuted by the world's governments and almost driven to extinction. Eventually the Empowered gained a Dark Messiah in the form of a masked witch who called herself Thana Krelios and she called them to strike back against the non-gifted and wipe them out. In the midst of this came a wizard calling himself Ramellen Gloria who tried to end the fighting with talk of equality and coexistence. He didn't hesitate to use violence but only when there was no other option.

Eventually he and Thana fought over ideals, as he wanted peace and had a plan to achieve it and all she wanted was to keep fighting until the other side was wiped out. They engaged in a magical battle that lasted three days and nights and destroyed entire cities, before he finally killed her. After this, Gloria did something that gave all humans the gift of magic to end the fighting between Empowered and "Muggles". Unfortunately for him, this last act resulted in his death.

The story takes place four thousand years later in the year 6011. The Haven is vastly more organized but still war-torn. There are thousands of nations that exist on The Haven's main continent, some of them are democracies, many more are monarchies, still others are simply oligarchies. Regardless of their government type, the nations themselves all swear allegiance to one of two vast factions that dominate the world with their beliefs and ideals: the the Conclave or the Iron Legion.

The Conclave is ruled over by the Magisters, five witches and wizards of immense power in their respective fields, and generally tries to present itself as The Federation and smears the Iron Legion as cold cruel barbarians. Nations under the Conclave are generally at "our" current technological level with a few tweaks here and there. There are no cars, only rather low-tech transports like wagons (though they do have motorized hovercrats). Long distances can easily be crossed via teleportation magic, so this is not really a problem. Other than that they are again pretty much like us; they have electricity, phones, television, security systems etc. However magic is pushed everywhere and takes over many functions we ascribe to tech. Want a spray tan? Just go to your beauty shop and have someone use Healing Magic ("Healing magic" being a catchall term for whatever magic influences the body's functions, wound repair or otherwise) to speed up melanin production in your skin! The Conclave generally treats the nations under their control well but they are not even close to being as benevolent as they try to appear. Allegiance to them requires absolute obedience, and when they have wars with the Iron Legion, nations under them must send out soldiers to do battle or risk being abandoned by the Conclave and all support taken from them. They have also conducted numerous involuntary human experiments on prisoners and such, but they are all secret and any witch or wizard discovered doing them outside of the Magisters' approval is punished and disavowed.

The Iron Legion is similar in that it gathers nations under them while allowing the countries to have their own governments. However they are anti-magic in the extreme, viewing it as unnatural and borderline evil. They are fiercely obsessed with technology, having invented such things as cybernetic limbs that flawlessly interface with the brain, tanks, poisonous gas, powerful firearms (though the Conclave has firearms, they are not common). They also have constructed robots, flying Final Fantasy style airships and many other cool toys. They are ruled over by a single family and have been passing it down that line regardless of whether the heir is male or female.

They are much less tolerant however and their laws, especially for using magic, are harsh. For example, one character's mother secretly studied healing magic through smuggled books in order to cure her daughter's blindness because her problem was beyond even the Legion's advanced surgery techniques. Her punishment when caught was to have her tongue torn out and her eyes gouged out to match the ailment she was trying to heal and then put on public display in her town's square. Thus while everyone can use magic, not everyone wants to. Dang!tongue I haven't even gotten to the main plot of the story and I've already taken up this much space. Anyway, the world-building part of a story is always my favorite and I'll continue talking about if it's not too obnoxious.
This story was written in a world that's very Earth-like except everyone is thrilled by your dumb epic history.

quote:

I once posted on here about my idea of creating an inversion Lyrical of Nanoha. Here's what I mean.

Twenty Minutes into the Future, a young girl get caught in a war between an international force and Mega Corp that gave her cybernetic implants. She ends up Falling into the Cockpit as she finds out his father, the CEO of the corporation, gave her the modifications so she could pilot Real Robot mecha. Convinced she'd have a more meaningful life as a Child Soldier due to having Abusive Parents who were died long ago, she jumps at the call to fight the international aggressors.

While Nanoha is called a Gundam show in magical girl from, this is would be a magical girl show in Gundam form, or I should say Knightmare Frame form. At the beginning, the girl fights enemies similar to a Monster of the Week (i.e. first an IFV, then a helicopter, then a tank, then a flying drone, etc.) She along with many other girls and boys like her would pilots various mecha, all of which are based on characters from magical girl and magical girl-based shows from West to East, young to old, childish to mature. Plus, there would be a cybernetically-enhanced cat to serve as a Mentor Mascot!

Already shared it with a few other people, who find it a cool idea.
Poorly written anime-sprinkled mush? That's some good TV Tropes.

quote:

Simple concept for my NaNoWriMo: SCP meets MythBusters in a blog format.
Nerd thing meets annoying nerd thing in a format that means I don't have to bother with boring hard stuff like word choice or tone. It's just like posting to Tumblr!

e: Note that all of these concern either backstory or worldbuilding, only one mentions a protagonist, and none of them really touch on their story's conflict or themes.

Djeser fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Oct 21, 2013

DaveWoo
Aug 14, 2004

Fun Shoe

Djeser posted:

There is a thread in their writers' forum called Post Your Concept. I was expecting to see them practicing story pitches. I don't know why I was expecting that.

Here's a challenge: try to find a concept in that thread that isn't sci-fi or fantasy.

Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

DaveWoo posted:

Here's a challenge: try to find a concept in that thread that isn't sci-fi or fantasy.

Is an idea that is thoroughly anime technically fantasy? If not then do I have the next summer bestsellers for you!

quote:

  • Shut-in NEET otaku's laptop broke, needs to get it outside and go fix it. Story'll essentially be of the troubles he goes through to get it fixed, and to finally get back home, despite the numerous amounts of obstacles during the way and the way back that it's like a comedy(Which it is), while providing negative commentary on society and finding himself involved with various people and places.

  • Boy A, our protagonist, is a new freshmen entering his first year of highschool. A few months into the school year, at a yearly school music perfomance, he sees one of his sempais performing onstage and instantly falls in love with her. Ever since then, on lunch breaks, while walking around school, or just randomly, he starts noticing her around a lot more. She's a very popular girl, although not the most popular, but she has quite a few friends. Her tomboyish personality, however, pretty much made her easier to get along with the boys. In particular is a group of three boys from the same year she hangs out with a lot. As the story progresses, Boy A somehow one way or another gets to know these three seniors, and finds out a huge love square going on underneath this friendship, and witnesses how it resolves.

Finisher1
Feb 21, 2008

DaveWoo posted:

Here's a challenge: try to find a concept in that thread that isn't sci-fi or fantasy.

This was the closest thing I could find:

Tarsen posted:

Hmm~
a pair of siblings living in a small town somewhere vaguely in france (or europe) working in/running a freelance agency. the older sister gets a job from a familiar man one day to track down his missing daughter. after a quick sweep around the neighborhood, checking to make sure that she definately wasn't in the fire that burned down the house of a reclusive neighbor a few hours earlier, she questions why the man went to her instead of the police, coming to the conclusion he has something to hide.

Not much later an old friend appears to help her out; the murderer of her family, and the one who gouged out her right eye. after several fights, constant reminiscing of the good old days, the very early reveal of her asking him to murder her family in the first place, dropping subtle hints as to why she asked him to, and generally not achieving anything at all, eventually they get back in contact with the man to ask him some questions- at which point the killer recognizes him, but can't quite figure out what he has to do with anything.

its revealed soon enough that the man used hypnosis on the killer. hypnotism in this story works in that you can make your subject do anything you want- so long as they dont veheminently object to doing it (such as murder). he claims that he found out what the main character asked her friend to do, and tried to hypnotise him, commanding him not to kill anyone but her- but it failed miserably, since he killed the family and only attacked her. after some events i havent thought of yet, the main character looks up hypnotism and finds out the aforementioned rule, and this totally destroys their team.

[BLAAAAAAAAAANK]

meanwhile the younger brother is doing unspecified stuff that same day and runs into the missing girl. and at first assumes she's a lost child and tries to take her to the police, but she runs away. he initially shrugs it off, not exactly caring to put much effort into something he doubts would pay off at any point, but runs into her several times and begins to find out more about her situation and becomes intrigued, eventually getting fully invested.

in this plot we find out about the girls motivations for disappearing, her exact relation to the man claiming to be her father, and a peek into his motivation for his actions.

eventually it culminates in the plots colliding and the brother running into his sister- who's with his family's murderer, and promptly freaks the gently caress out. finding out his sister orchestrated the murder didn't exactly help either.

[BLAAAAAAAAANK]

ends on a downer with the villain (if he can be called that) getting away scot-free, the killer getting caught and sent back to prison, refusing to tell anyone about the main characters involvement, the main character stubbornly refuses to tell her brother why she orchestrated the murder, ultimately driving them apart, with her guilt over getting her best friend sent to jail as a cold calculating murderer ultimately getting the better of her. thought I havent decided what happened to the missing girl.

on the upside though, the loose ends may be properly resolved in the finale story, which takes place only a year later not far off from where this story takes place.

So wait, hypnosis works unless the subject just... doesn't want to do it? Normally I'd say this is a pretty glaring flaw, but I guess this one makes sense because BLAAAAAAAANK

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
I wonder if Tropers are aware that Speculative Fiction does not need to be just stock fantasy or science fiction. It's right in the loving name: Speculative. What ifs. But nope, gotta reach that nerd appeal quotient some way, and then bury your idea in meaningless faff and tropes.

HackensackBackpack
Aug 20, 2007

Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?

quote:

My story Archmage Reborn takes place in a world known as The Haven by its inhabitants. It is very Earth-like, though there are differences such as a golden-colored moon and that the world's landmass is a sort of "Pangea", one large landmass, though there are two separate landmasses that are kept secret from the rest of the world.

This one drove me bonkers. Who cares what colour the moon is? What difference does the shape of the landmass, or landmasses, make? Why should I care about the Iron whatever or the other guys? Who are the characters in this?

Looking at all of this made me think that I never once thought about the shape of the landmass upon which The Hobbit, as an example, takes place, even if maps WERE readily available in the version of the novel I read as a kid.

And the troper who posts it, they realize, at the very end, that they spend six or seven paragraphs wanking over their world building and never mentioned the names of any characters at all, but then say "oh well, I'll keep going on this, then!" Do they know they don't have to hit post? They can re-write the post to actually contain pertinent information.

HackensackBackpack fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Oct 22, 2013

Bear Sleuth
Jul 17, 2011

Djeser posted:

Note that all of these concern either backstory or worldbuilding, only one mentions a protagonist.

This detail seems especially damning. Why is it that they're so focused on events and not people? Let's see what the wiki has to say on the subject.

Characters posted:

People in the world you are looking to for entertainment.

Basically one of the most super of tropes in all of fiction. Unless you're writing some sort of abstract poem, it's pretty much impossible to tell a story without characters.

That's it, followed by a long list of random character types like "Astrologer" and "Intrepid Merchant."

"People in the world you are looking to for entertainment." Jesus Christ.

How about the other so-called "super-tropes?" They do a little better describing plot, but they feel compelled to put in a note making clear they're not talking about My Little Pony rear end.

There is no entry for "story."

Conflict isn't too bad either, and they stress the importance of the concept, but again there's a heavy focus on Sci-fi and Fantasy.

quote:

1.Man vs. Man, as in Character(s) vs Character(s).
This could be the Big Bad, a monster, a robot, a friend, aliens, or anyone, as long as it's another character, major or minor. After all, The Villain Makes the Plot.

A monster, or a robot, or aliens, or whatever! There's absolutely nothing in here about two character's wants and needs clashing to make conflict.

quote:

3.Man vs. Nature or other Hostile Environment. or a Situation of some sort. Even Death Traps could count here.

...yeah, but there's wider philosophical implications that can be at play. It's just not survival stories. Glad they included that bit about death traps though. I wouldn't that point to get muddied.

quote:

Traditionalists boil it down to the first three, redefining "Man" as a defeatable entity and "Nature" as anything that has to be survived or changed rather than defeated. According to the three basic conflicts, Zombie Apocalypse would thus be Man Vs. Nature.

Christ. Can't they think of any other examples? (Also, I'm trying to figure out just why this specification is here. When would a zombie attack be defined as any of the other types of conflict?)

The page on theme spends most of its running confusing the issue by comparing it to The Aesop, what they call a moral. Why they think a theme can't be moral in consideration, I don't know. Maybe they think morals are for babies? They also advise that to learn about a work's theme you should visit its Analysis page.

Examples:

Religion, Mythology and Folklore posted:

•Norse Mythology: Heroism in the face of defeat.
•Classical Mythology: The folly of Pride. The eternal struggle between parent and child..
•Buddhism: The search for inner peace and contentment.
•Aztec Mythology: How nothing good in the world comes without sacrifice.
•Islam: Peace through submission to God.
•Christianity: Salvation and Redemption.
•Judaism: Obey the laws.

Let's just boil down rich and complex religions to obvious stereotypes. Judaism: OBEY THE LAWS.

Tabletop Games posted:

•Paranoia: The Law (Friend Computer) is crazy.

How do you miss it? It's right in the title.

quote:

Warhammer 40,000 - The overarching motif is war. There is always a war in 40k, every last living thing is involved somehow, even when there is no Alien Invasion, no Chaos conspiracy, they make their own wars, their own crusades to fill the void. Even at the cusp of victory, as the Great Crusade came to a close, the Astartes legions turned their guns on one another. There is no escape, no respite, no hope for victory. In the Grim Darkness of the far future, there is only war.

I don't know the fine points of W40K, but isn't it just an over-the-top excuse to have crazy miniatures battles?

Web Original posted:

•The Whateley Universe seems to be fundamentally about prejudice. In a super hero world, there's prejudice against mutants and their powers, but in a lot of ways the stories are at least as much about prejudice against LGBT people, since every one in Team Kimba is a mutant who is LGBT in some way, perhaps against their will.

Wonderful. I thought it was about indulging sex-change kink.

They only have examples for Religion, Table-Top RPGs, and Web stuff. No literature, film, poetry, or nonsense like that. Amazingly, there's not examples for Anime or MLP either. I'm kind of surprised.

MinistryofLard
Mar 22, 2013


Goblin babies did nothing wrong.


Bear Sleuth posted:

The page on theme spends most of its running confusing the issue by comparing it to The Aesop, what they call a moral. Why they think a theme can't be moral in consideration, I don't know. Maybe they think morals are for babies? They also advise that to learn about a work's theme you should visit its Analysis page.

Examples:


Let's just boil down rich and complex religions to obvious stereotypes. Judaism: OBEY THE LAWS.


How do you miss it? It's right in the title.


I don't know the fine points of W40K, but isn't it just an over-the-top excuse to have crazy miniatures battles?


Wonderful. I thought it was about indulging sex-change kink.

They only have examples for Religion, Table-Top RPGs, and Web stuff. No literature, film, poetry, or nonsense like that. Amazingly, there's not examples for Anime or MLP either. I'm kind of surprised.

They have them, they're sorted into subpages. You can find the links towards the top of the screen.

Their pages on literature and film are surprisingly not terrible, though I may be unpleasantly surprised by something I missed.

EDIT: and their section on My Little Pony only has like two sentences. This is surprisingly not-poo poo for TV Tropes.

MinistryofLard fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Oct 22, 2013

Sailor Viy
Aug 4, 2013

And when I can swim no longer, if I have not reached Aslan's country, or shot over the edge of the world into some vast cataract, I shall sink with my nose to the sunrise.

Bear Sleuth posted:


I don't know the fine points of W40K, but isn't it just an over-the-top excuse to have crazy miniatures battles?


"This tabletop wargame is focused on the concept of war." Truly a stunning piece of analysis.

my dad
Oct 17, 2012

this shall be humorous

Bear Sleuth posted:

I don't know the fine points of W40K, but isn't it just an over-the-top excuse to have crazy miniatures battles?

And a parody of a certain right-leaning British government. The biggest, baddest Ork in the galaxy is Margaret Thatcher (Ghazkull Mag Uruk Thraka)

Hedgehog Pie
May 19, 2012

Total fuckin' silence.

Bear Sleuth posted:

The page on theme spends most of its running confusing the issue by comparing it to The Aesop, what they call a moral. Why they think a theme can't be moral in consideration, I don't know. Maybe they think morals are for babies?


I got a real 4chan vibe from some of the quotes posted in the last thread, ones that even went so far as to use the abhorrent phrase "moralfag" with no sense of irony. I don't have any direct quotes, but so many of them seem to like going off on complete and utter tangents about censorship when they're discussing their "projects", probably because their fantasies (a word with multiple valid meanings in this context) are so often totally filthy and wretched. The "crackdown" on all the paedophile nonsense covered in the last thread had some real gems in this respect.

Sort of related, there was one classic where a Troper called out former Governor of Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara and implied that his moves to ban questionable anime and manga were the most despicable things he would ever do; Ishihara has stated that Chinese and Korean people are sub-human, compared Roppongi to Hell on Earth due to its population of black people and denied that the Rape of Nanking ever happened, amongst other great things. Does anyone happen to have that? Hopefully I just misremembered!

I think it goes hand-in-hand with a broader problem, that the whole insular environment and set of attitudes incubated on TV Tropes encourage people to think that they're above certain types of media (stereotypically I'd say "anything that's not anime or spectacularly nerdy in all the wrong ways" but it seems like that's not actually far from the truth when you see people defending Terrible Sexual Niche-Catering Anime #73 and not Lolita) as well as things like themes or didactics. It wouldn't be so bad - heck, it's not too far removed from a whole host of awful, smarmy Internet sites filled with people who want to celebrate their love of media by sucking the life out of it, if that is in any way shape or form consoling - only you get the sense that they think they're indisputably right about all these things, particularly when some of them laughably call it an academic resource. Of course all themes are didactics and of course morals are simply the playthings of hypocritical soapboxers. It's not like anyone ever told a good story or painted a wonderful picture while also having something important to say about society.

quote:

They also advise that to learn about a work's theme you should visit its Analysis page.

Sergei Eisenstein posted:

We don't have an article named Analysis/SergeiEisenstein.

Yasujiro Ozu posted:

We don't have an article named Analysis/YasujiroOzu.

Charles Dickens posted:

We don't have an article named Analysis/CharlesDickens.

James Joyce posted:

We don't have an article named Analysis/JamesJoyce.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Well, of course there's no analysis for those things. Don't you know that True Art Is Incomprehensible?

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012

my dad posted:

And a parody of a certain right-leaning British government. The biggest, baddest Ork in the galaxy is Margaret Thatcher (Ghazkull Mag Uruk Thraka)

Bloody hell, somehow I didn't even notice that despite knowing the orks are basically football hooligans. I suppose there's consolation to be found in the fact 40K being hugely satirical in a lot of places is lost on a lot of people, especially tropers.

OWLS!
Sep 17, 2009

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
In my sleepless haze I just realized that "Fast Eddie" is actually a character from one of my favorite inane scifi bar books. Spyder Robinson's Calahan series.

gently caress you TVTropes creator. gently caress you for taking that name. gently caress you for even associating it for me with your filthy mug.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat

OWLS! posted:

In my sleepless haze I just realized that "Fast Eddie" is actually a character from one of my favorite inane scifi bar books. Spyder Robinson's Calahan series.

gently caress you TVTropes creator. gently caress you for taking that name. gently caress you for even associating it for me with your filthy mug.
For some reason, I think it's more likely that he took it from the WWI ace. Your books are safe.

Keromaru5
Dec 28, 2012

Pictured: The Wolf Of Gubbio (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Bear Sleuth posted:

This detail seems especially damning. Why is it that they're so focused on events and not people?
This is what's crazy for me, as someone with aspirations of being a for-real author. Just yesterday I was brainstorming ideas for short stories I'd like to write, and came up with thirteen. Each and every one of them started with a main character. That's part of the fun of writing SF for me, seeing how individuals interact with weird situations!

That said, one I could actually see potentially working is the one about the guy going to get his laptop repaired. It would probably have to be a Harold and Kumar-ish farce, and would take the author of Welcome to the NHK or Genshiken to pull it off.

Lord Chumley
May 14, 2007

Embrace your destiny.

Hedgehog Pie posted:

We don't have an article named Analysis/JamesJoyce.

I was kind of hoping there would be a trope list for his love letters.

kecske
Feb 28, 2011

it's round, like always

Sham bam bamina! posted:

For some reason, I think it's more likely that he took it from the WWI ace. Your books are safe.

I think it's even more likely to be 'Fast' Eddie Savitz

quote:

Edward Isadore Savitz (also known as Uncle Eddie, Fast Eddie and Dr. Feel Good) was an American businessman who offered teenage boys money, concert tickets and football tickets for their soiled underwear, and various sexual acts including: oral and anal sex, slamming his penis in a door, penis sword fights, urinating on him, vomiting in his mouth and defecating in his mouth through a potty chair. He reportedly kept the feces in pizza boxes in his apartment. He told the boys to eat cheese to make the feces taste better.

There now doesn't that seem more fitting :barf:

JackMackerel
Jun 15, 2011
Some dude got banned for calling Max Brooks an idiot for having the army get eaten by zombies in his zombie novel. Since copypasting them would chew up huge amounts of the page, here's his long-winded technical rant on getting banned.

Part deux: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=5cma6iojg5o27puhulc24sje&page=165#4119

Part trois: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=5cma6iojg5o27puhulc24sje&page=165#4121

Be sure to read a TV Tropes mod finally making some goddamn sense for once!

Razorwired posted:

So I'm doing a project on racism in comic books. Surely academic resource TVTropes can help me out by looking at other social issues in the medium:


Off topic as gently caress, but the "Tomato Surprise" trope page (which is basically 'twist ending as applied to reveal of identity' or some such) gives this pretty cool comic book that was made during the Civil Rights movement. It's a pretty cool read.

JackMackerel fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Oct 24, 2013

This Is the Zodiac
Feb 4, 2003

Is there a way to view a user's post history on the forums? From their user page I can click through to their list of edits on the wiki but I seem to be too :downs: to find post history.

Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

The best you can do is search the forums for their user name.

TV Tropes is not a very well designed site :ssh:

EagerSleeper
Feb 3, 2010

by R. Guyovich
That one great comic that was made during the middle of the Civil Rights movement got me thinking back to something earlier in this thread.

Stottie Kyek posted:

Jesus gently caress. It's like his understanding of communism comes from image macros misquoting/misattributing quotes to Karl Marx and those hippie shops that sell Che Guevara T-shirts.

"Social progress can be measured by the social position of the female sex" - Karl Marx

"The revolution and women’s liberation go together. We do not talk of women’s emancipation as an act of charity or because of a surge of human compassion. It is a basic necessity for the triumph of the revolution. Women hold up the other half of the sky." - Thomas Sankara

"The status of women up to now has been compared to that of a slave; women have been tied to the home, and only socialism can save them from this." - Vladimir Lenin

As for his idea that "sex is a distraction, an opiate to the masses":

"The anxiety about the ‘consequences’, which is today the most important social factor – both moral and economic – that hinders a girl from giving herself freely to the man she loves disappears. Will this not be cause enough for a gradual rise of more unrestrained sexual intercourse, and along with it, a more lenient public opinion regarding virginal honour and feminine shame?" - Friedrich Engels, communist theorist and total manslut

He sounds like just another creep who's angry at all women because he's not getting laid, but with communism.

Thanks for posting this. It actually made me feel better. :unsmith: Now, is there something absolutely reprehensible about any of those people that those quotes are from, because I don't want to start putting those quotes around blindly in my room.

Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!



EagerSleeper posted:

That one great comic that was made during the middle of the Civil Rights movement got me thinking back to something earlier in this thread.


Thanks for posting this. It actually made me feel better. :unsmith: Now, is there something absolutely reprehensible about any of those people that those quotes are from, because I don't want to start putting those quotes around blindly in my room.

They're all famous communists, so they're complex figures and it's hard to find a neutral source about their views. I'd say that Engels is objectively a bad person, the others are perfectly respectable communists. Engels would agree with Jimprofit's views on women, especially if those women were slowing down the revolution. Marx is obviously most famous for Marxism and not exactly a feminist, but more pragmatic than Engels and not an outright misogynist. Lenin and Sankara pushed hard for women's rights while in power, and both had successors who made the situation worse. The Russian Civil War killed 2 million people, I'll let you decide whether that makes Lenin too reprehensible for your wall of quotes.

Tropes commonly associated with Dirty Communists are:

quote:

The Baroness
Berlin Wall
Cold War
Commissar Cap
Commie Nazis
Day of the Jackboot
Deep Cover Agent
Fake Russian
General Ripper
Glorious Mother Russia
The Great Politics Mess-Up ...after the Cold War.
Hammer and Sickle Removed for Your Protection
Hot Line
Iron Curtain
Mnogo Nukes
Nuke 'Em
A Nuclear Error
The Political Officer
Red October
Red Scare
Reds with Rockets
Reporting Names
Romanovs And Revolutions (The Russian Revolution)
Secret Police
Soviet Superscience
When Harry Met Svetlana
Why We Are Bummed Communism Fell

Weldon Pemberton
May 19, 2012

I just went to the Boots site to check something, and was reminded of an old TVTropes classic:



For those who are unfamiliar with what I'm talking about : :nws:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrE8VEphVHs:nws:

Apple Tree
Sep 8, 2013

JackMackerel posted:

Some dude got banned for calling Max Brooks an idiot for having the army get eaten by zombies in his zombie novel. Since copypasting them would chew up huge amounts of the page, here's his long-winded technical rant on getting banned.

I think you can pretty much summarise that with the words: 'Calling someone an idiot counts as "bashing" them? Who knew?!' :pseudo:


quote:

I'll let you decide whether that makes Lenin too reprehensible for your wall of quotes.

Or whether it means EVEN LENIN didn't sink to sexism. Depending on taste. Robert Conquest's limerick seems appropriate here:

quote:

There was an old bastard named Lenin
Who did two or three million men in.
That's a lot to have done in
But where he did one in
That old bastard Stalin did ten in.

Meanwhile, I went to have a look at their views on Fascism. Got into their forum on Liberal Fascism, which was about as intelligent a discussion as you'd expect. Interestingly, you can't call a sci fi author an idiot, but it's apparently okay to call Rousseau one - excuse me, to call Rosseau one - and to call Karl Popper 'one of the worst historians of philosophy the world has ever seen'; those snooty intellectuals have it coming. But the bit that really got me puzzled was this little gem:

quote:

There's no father of fascism. Fascism doesn't really mean anything, anyway. It's just a vague term for "I don't like this".

'Fascism doesn't really mean anything, anyway' links to a trope called 'Sarcasm Mode', and 'It's just a vague term for "I don't like this", bewilderingly, links without explanation to their page on George Orwell.

Which says, in total:

quote:

Creator: George Orwell

Real name Eric Blair, George Orwell (1903-1950) was one of the most influential authors in the English language.

A democratic socialist all his life, but his views changed somewhat over time and his dislike of Soviet communism was very clear. Orwell, a journalist, participated in the Spanish Civil War on the side of the Republicans, serving in the party militia of the P.O.U.M. or Party of Marxist Worker's Unificationnote , and even got shot in the throat (an experience that he would go on to describe as "interesting"). His works tend to be considered cynical. The term "Orwellian" is named after his famous works of dystopian fiction, particularly 1984.

His most famous works are:
Animal Farm
1984
Homage to Catalonia - an autobiographical account of his experiences in Spain.
Politics and the English Language - A hugely influential non-fiction essay.

Orwell created the following tropes:

Newspeak (he took inspiration from several real-life sources)
We Will Use Wiki Words In The Future
Several additional tropes were inspired by Newspeak, including:
Airstrip One
Language Equals Thought
People's Republic of Tyranny

George Orwell is the source of several trope names:

2 + Torture = 5
All Issues Are Political Issues
Big Brother Is Watching
Cold War: It is debated whether he actually coined it, but he was certainly one of the first to use the phrase, in his essay "You and the Atomic Bomb".
Four Legs Good, Two Legs Better
Orwellian Editor
Orwellian Retcon
Room 101
Unperson
Written by the Winners

He is also the current mascot for the "Have A Nice Cup Of Tea And Sit Down" page. He considered tea to be Serious Business. Spot of Tea, indeed.

It's full of links, of course, same way my lawn is full of weeds, but I'm not bloody pasting them all. I think being told that 'His works tend to be considered cynical' (with links to those indispensable tropes Deadpan Snarker, Crapsack World and Black and Gray Morality) tells us everything we need to know. :eng101:

Because I am a serious scholar who wishes to drink deep from the font of wisdom, however, I did look one up: Four Legs Good, Two Legs Better. On the off-chance that anyone here has somehow managed to make it this far without reading Animal Farm: the phrase is about the erasure of history under violent authority. The sheep on Animal Farm began by chanting 'Four legs good, two legs bad!' to teach them solidarity with other animals against the human oppressors, but when the pigs are in full control and start walking upright and enjoying human luxuries, the sheep chant 'Four legs good, two legs better!'

So ... the trope means what, do you think? A reference to new ideologies that betray and distort old ideals? An evocation of the authoritarian mindset that repeats any belief the leaders dictate? A description of the way that those in power demand a society's values to shape themselves around their own convenience?

quote:

This trope is about the fact that some of the animals on the same end of the Sliding Scale of Anthropomorphism are more likely to stand upright and others are more likely to stay on all fours. In other words, it is about one animal on two legs and an animal on four legs being close to each other on Sliding Scale of Anthropomorphism.

It's not always a case that the two-legged characters are more intelligent or more "humanized" than the others, but the Trope Namer, Animal Farm, and the trope's name suggest this case.

I ... I think I'm going to go now. There's doubtless a barrel of irony to be had out of their discussions of Newspeak, but I'm afraid that if I spend any more time thinking about it, my brain will melt and run out of my ears.

Apple Tree fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Oct 25, 2013

Penny Paper
Dec 31, 2012

Weldon Pemberton posted:

I just went to the Boots site to check something, and was reminded of an old TVTropes classic:



For those who are unfamiliar with what I'm talking about : :nws:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrE8VEphVHs:nws:

I wonder if people working in toy stores (or the toy sections of department stores) get training on how to deal with overage toy "lovers" like the bronies.

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JackMackerel
Jun 15, 2011

EagerSleeper posted:

That one great comic that was made during the middle of the Civil Rights movement got me thinking back to something earlier in this thread.


Thanks for posting this. It actually made me feel better. :unsmith: Now, is there something absolutely reprehensible about any of those people that those quotes are from, because I don't want to start putting those quotes around blindly in my room.

That dude quoted was Jim Profit, infamous... thing who's been banned from Wikipedia and TV Tropes for having some distorted loving view about Communism. He also wanted to murder the SA mods. He's made videos about him raging at getting banned from the place. It's like Chris-Chan, if he was a Marxist. This was the video I posted,, and upon scrolling through his video directory with morbid curiosity, he's got a few more:

Raging at moderators... after being banned three years ago... bragging that he owns the site... for being made fun of by one of the moderators.

Going balls-out internet tough guy on Satanic TV Tropes.

I'm pretty sure this guy is a troll, but he's loving good.

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