|
Except here's the thing. You aren't even arguing from an "optimal play style" anymore. You are arguing for "best long term build". It's not uncommon in many games to offer options that are better earlier on but harder down the road, and others that have a slow buildup but eventually come into their own. "Optimal long-term" isn't the same as "optimal", since for many players getting to the long term is where the majority of the struggle is. Even in crawl there are classes that are simply not as good as others in the late game, and it's possible to argue that you are hurting yourself and playing non-optimally by picking them. But most of an average player's deaths will BE in the early game, especially in Cata, so for them picking a powerful class that starts off with some decent skills and equipment is totally a worthwhile trade-off for being slightly worse off long after it has ceased to matter. It becomes a question of "when do I want most of the challenge in this game to occur? Sooner, or later?" Also, they get a lot more fun and valuable if you build your worlds with Black Road enabled. ^_^
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 18:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 22:50 |
|
|
Killer-of-Lawyers posted:That's one roguelike that specifically set out to do a lot of things like that. Out of around a hundred others. Not every game is going to be crawl, especially if you're making it a sandbox roguelike. All the other sandbox roguelikes tend to be similar. DF, Prospector, ect. ect. Playing a sandbox game with the water always finds cracks mentality is a recipe for burning yourself out. You will always find a way to game the system, because it is humanly improbable to make a open ended game that doesn't have cracks for you to find and exploit, nevermind one that's being worked on by a ton of people, takes open submissions from the public at large, and hasn't had very long in the oven. You talk about "finding cracks" and "burning out" as if they're bad things. Gaming the system for every inch it can give should mean you find something really cool you never thought of doing before, and when you stop finding cool things and it's all routine... Well, you're done, and you find something else to do. Or wait for more development if it's something being actively added to.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 18:45
|
|
|
What does black road do, anyways? I thought it just removed the yellow lines in the roads.Tuxedo Catfish posted:You talk about "finding cracks" and "burning out" as if they're bad things. Gaming the system for every inch it can give should mean you find something really cool you never thought of doing before, and when you stop finding cool things and it's all routine... Well, you're done, and you find something else to do. Or wait for more development if it's something being actively added to. So why are you bitching? Congrats, you've won how you want to play Cataclysm, go play crawl or something else till you come back and don't spend a page whining about how it's not built to your  specifications.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 18:46
|
|
|
Killer-of-Lawyers posted:So why are you bitching? Congrats, you've won how you want to play Cataclysm, go play crawl or something else till you come back and don't spend a page whining about how it's not built to your I'm not done with Cataclysm, I'm still finding cool stuff! I'm just responding to your bizarre objections to the reasoning I was using to make arguments that we left behind several posts ago. GlyphGryph posted:Except here's the thing. You aren't even arguing from an "optimal play style" anymore. You are arguing for "best long term build". This is all true, but I guess I just don't see the early game in Cataclysm as all that hard. Which is fine, I like how deterministic that aspect of it is compared to many roguelikes, the actual difficulty level isn't a problem. But it does make the value of a strong early start kind of damp. Maybe I'll try some Black Road games. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Nov 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 18:49
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm not done with Cataclysm, I'm still finding cool stuff! I'm just responding to your bizarre objections to the reasoning I was using to make arguments that we left behind several posts ago. So far no one has agreed with any of your bizarre arguments though. I think it's time you took a step back and reconsidered the core of your arguments. It should be painfully obvious that what you find fun isn't what the majority finds fun.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 18:51
|
|
|
Killer-of-Lawyers posted:So far no one has agreed with any of your bizarre arguments though. I think it's time you took a step back and reconsidered the core of your arguments. It should be painfully obvious that what you find fun isn't what the majority finds fun. I have considered my arguments, they're just far more typical to other genres than they are to roguelikes. That's more of a reason to advance them re: a roguelike where the developers are open to community feedback, though. Are we done arguing about arguing?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 18:56
|
|
|
It seems you could probably just solve this by not having stats set in stone and be able to raise them later in the game. The game doesn't seem to be balanced around that, though, so it'd be pretty hard to work in. I guess it could make for a good mod in the future. Also, Black Road starts you off with a survival shelter crammed full of stuff and a pack of angry zombies. If you survive, you can hole up for a bit without having to dash into town for supplies immediately.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 18:58
|
|
|
^^^ Oh, that's cool. I might try that for my next run. Tuxedo Catfish posted:I have considered my arguments, they're just far more typical to other genres than they are to roguelikes. That's more of a reason to advance them re: a roguelike where the developers are open to community feedback, though. You can't advance your arguments as a one man debate team. Step back, relax, and put forth something more agreeable and maybe you'll make progress. Ultimately, you seem to have a seriously strong objection to a rather common thing, which is choosing a short term gain over a long term one. No one else seems to have that problem, so you seem to be either not conveying your argument very well, or you're just not in the majority. Either way, you shouldn't be surprised at any of the responses you're getting.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 19:08
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:This is all true, but I guess I just don't see the early game in Cataclysm as all that hard. Which is fine, I like how deterministic that aspect of it is compared to many roguelikes, the actual difficulty level isn't a problem. But it does make the value of a strong early start kind of damp. Yeah, like I said, I don't really disagree with any part of your argument except that it's exceptionally narrow. It doesn't really reflect the experience of the majority of Cataclysm players (who DO find he early game difficult). You're experienced enough with the game that most of the benefits provided aren't terribly useful to you, but hopefully they will be to most other people.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 19:17
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Yeah, like I said, I don't really disagree with any part of your argument except that it's exceptionally narrow. It doesn't really reflect the experience of the majority of Cataclysm players (who DO find he early game difficult). You're experienced enough with the game that most of the benefits provided aren't terribly useful to you, but hopefully they will be to most other people. I think the biggest part of it is just the psychological hump of going from relatively freeform play to "okay, I need these skills to make these crafts before alcohol withdrawal or exhaustion kick in, I can't fight zombies yet but I still need to raid at least one house, and I need to kill one large animal, etc." You only really need that tight plan for the first day or two though, after that you're playing the same game as everyone else. If the problem is just that people aren't aware or confident enough to try it, I'll write up a guide for the wiki.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 19:38
|
|
|
I think the fun for a lot of players is discovering that sort of stuff without needing to use a guide, though. I know discovering stuff is most of the fun for me. And especially when you haven't yet mastered the first couple days, they can be pretty drat brutal!
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 20:27
|
|
|
I'm not really sure how this all started, but skills are clearly the worst use of points in chargen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 20:41
|
|
|
^^^^^ Not if you're learning and I still take tailoring because I like being able to craft very early. Your play style is not mine and it's not objectively worse, it depends what you want. Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think the biggest part of it is just the psychological hump of going from relatively freeform play to "okay, I need these skills to make these crafts before alcohol withdrawal or exhaustion kick in, I can't fight zombies yet but I still need to raid at least one house, and I need to kill one large animal, etc." You only really need that tight plan for the first day or two though, after that you're playing the same game as everyone else. I'd tentatively say I've 'mastered' the early-mid game but I don't do any min-maxing and my early game 'plan' changes each play through. I'll collect items I know I'll need and level skills I know I want but as for a plan past the first few days I doubt I'm doing what everyone else is. I just set myself a goal and go do it, no matter how stupid it is and nothing the game set. (I made the batmobile and bat bike. No doubt someone else has done that though)
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 20:43
|
|
|
Strumpie posted:I'd tentatively say I've 'mastered' the early-mid game but I don't do any min-maxing and my early game 'plan' changes each play through. I'll collect items I know I'll need and level skills I know I want but as for a plan past the first few days I doubt I'm doing what everyone else is. That's really all I'm talking about, it's just that doing an addict start puts a timer on how much you can craft before you run out of booze/drugs and can't craft anything till you're clean.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 20:52
|
|
|
Not strictly true. You can still craft after waking up each day, the depression doesn't kick in for a few minutes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 22:15
|
|
|
tooterfish posted:Not strictly true. You can still craft after waking up each day, the depression doesn't kick in for a few minutes. I ran into that actually, but I'm not sure if it's "a few minutes" or if it's a bug and it just lasts until the first time something checks your mood. Either way, you only get one shot at crafting before it kicks in, so you're not likely to make a day's worth of cooked food or clean water off of it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 22:18
|
|
|
You can usually get enough food and water to last out your withdrawal from a couple of houses though. It's only two or three days. Most of my early crafts are opportunistic. Filter mask if I come across plastic bags/bottle early enough to counter the inevitable cold/flu. Leather vest if I find a jacket. Maybe a crowbar (although I prefer the pipe as starting weapon, +3 to hit, and with blocking). I've found the key to hobo is to not push your luck early on. With your great stats it's possible to fight like a champ even with depression and hallucinations, but why bother? A single infected wound can really screw you over, so just grab what you need and wait it out. My main issue is usually getting something warm to sleep in. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Nov 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 22:36
|
|
|
My solution to this (apparently contentious) issue would be to have Stats and Traits draw from a different pool of points than Professions and Skills; the values of the two different sets of points would be a lot easier to balance and it would give more options for min-maxers without changing the experience for new players. v v
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 22:55
|
|
|
Reposting my question from the last page:JosephWongKS posted:One last question about vehicles: I recall reading in a previous Cataclysm thread that various goons' vehicles were capable of smashing through other vehicles and even entire walls while suffering minimal or no damage. How much armor plating / vehicle mass / top speed do you need to achieve that? I don't want to have to stop to disassemble every wrecked car that blocks the road.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2013 23:55
|
|
|
I honestly don't see what the issue is with choosing short-term advantages over long-term optimum builds. Pretty much every game has something along those lines, off the top of my head LoL for example is literally balanced around the concept.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 00:06
|
|
|
JosephWongKS posted:Reposting my question from the last page: Sorry, the recent asinine conversation distracted me. I noticed a few pieces of incorrect information over the last few pages, especially to do with ammunition crafting but I'm not going to address it as I'm sure they'll manage. As for vehicles, I don't crash mine so I wouldn't know. I do know vehicles have been substantially overhauled over the last few releases and as of 0.9 having hard plating at the front of a vehicle should allow you to crash through a few wrecks or houses before getting totalled, or at least not break after the first one. I don't typically test that sort of thing but it seems like they're weaker than they used to be but still tough enough to crash through some wrecks at a reasonable speed. If you want to move stuff out of the road you can 'G'rab bikes and small vehicles to push them. Gently ramming larger vehicles with a hard plated truck to push them away should be fine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 00:06
|
|
|
Must be a pretty common newbie mistake but I wielded my backpack instead of wearing it. I was still able to kill 4-5 zombies with an empty ripped backpack. If you want my opinion, that's badass.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 00:19
|
|
|
whiteshark12 posted:I honestly don't see what the issue is with choosing short-term advantages over long-term optimum builds. Pretty much every game has something along those lines, off the top of my head LoL for example is literally balanced around the concept. In a single player game with no significant time pressures it's literally just gimping your charterer for no reason to build short term. Building short term in cataclysm is pretty pointless since all you need is to find something like a riot helmet and a peacoat to get past the 'dying to zombie dogs' part of the game. Especially if you're willing to sit around improving skills, in which case you're presented with the riveting gameplay choice of 'do you want to make yourself miserable for a better character y/n' I'd rather professions and skills be merged more and for early points in skills to have a later game effect, like a higher learning rate for said skills. e: actually that wouldn't help much at all. oh well Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Nov 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 00:30
|
|
|
Senso posted:Must be a pretty common newbie mistake but I wielded my backpack instead of wearing it. I was still able to kill 4-5 zombies with an empty ripped backpack. If you want my opinion, that's badass. Shades of Holistic Detective. And I think the first time I played I tried to do something similar, but got murdered in short order instead of being a badass.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 00:43
|
|
|
I think bionic patient is a good investment. 4 points for the best power source and one of the best mods preinstalled is good, but 4 points in skills can be made up in what, a couple in game hours tops?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 07:33
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think the biggest part of it is just the psychological hump of going from relatively freeform play to "okay, I need these skills to make these crafts before alcohol withdrawal or exhaustion kick in, I can't fight zombies yet but I still need to raid at least one house, and I need to kill one large animal, etc." You only really need that tight plan for the first day or two though, after that you're playing the same game as everyone else. For me personally, though I can do all of that with a stick and a few rocks, I'll still pick a profession and some skills because it's just... well, easier? And I don't need to have high stats later on. Freeform is kind of the best way to describe it, really. If you want to you can have a hard early game and an easy late game, or you can do the reverse, or you can find somewhere in the middle, it's really down to how you want to play the game. Tiler Kiwi posted:In a single player game with no significant time pressures it's literally just gimping your charterer for no reason to build short term. Building short term in cataclysm is pretty pointless since all you need is to find something like a riot helmet and a peacoat to get past the 'dying to zombie dogs' part of the game. Especially if you're willing to sit around improving skills, in which case you're presented with the riveting gameplay choice of 'do you want to make yourself miserable for a better character y/n' That sort of assumes you're only going to play one character forever, whereas I regularly restart just because, because I quite like the earlier sections of the game. If I was going to build a character to become the god of the wasteland after a few ingame years, I'd pick all stats. But I generally spend an equal amount of time in all the different parts of the game, so I build balanced characters which have a range of stats, skills, and gear. If you're only going for one playstyle, then only one build is going to be worth doing for you, I'm not sure what you could really do to prevent that. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Nov 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 08:04
|
|
|
Is Fast Learner worth the points investment, or would it be better spent on stats? For the crafting skills, it appears to be significantly easier and certainly less tedious to find the necessary book and read it than to level the skill up by crafting objects over and over again, while for the combat skills, it doesn't take very much fighting before you are sufficiently skillful to be nigh-invincible any way.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 08:25
|
|
|
Depends on your play style and settings. Its more worth it if you aren't playing with capped skill rust or such. I usually don't bother with it anymore, but it was my bread and butter when I was starting out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 08:31
|
|
|
JosephWongKS posted:Is Fast Learner worth the points investment, or would it be better spent on stats? For the crafting skills, it appears to be significantly easier and certainly less tedious to find the necessary book and read it than to level the skill up by crafting objects over and over again, while for the combat skills, it doesn't take very much fighting before you are sufficiently skillful to be nigh-invincible any way. I used to take it all the time but my last character I didn't bother with it, crafting to level up skills is not really what I'd call practical at the moment because you use up so much crap making useless things you don't need. Aside from crafting and disassembling towels to train tailoring, I don't bother, and that's just as doable with and without fast learner.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 08:33
|
|
|
I'd say no, I don't think most traits are really worth it anymore. Maybe quick, self-defense, robust genetics, or fast learner (maybe)
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 08:47
|
|
|
Jesus H Christ, apparently shelters now have a random chance to be packed to the gills with supplies, but also have a zombie hulk in the basement... Let's see if I can get out of this. Edit: I could not. Punched into paste by a hulk in the first building I entered. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Nov 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 08:56
|
|
|
Crafting to level skills is likely best for skills that are trivially easy to get the resources for, or ones that can be a pain to train otherwise; heavy sticks / two by fours to make a million arrows to up fabrication, or digging sticks to raise survival, or snare triggers to raise trapping; sewing together socks to train tailoring, or taking apart and reassembling flashlights to raise electronics. It's mostly stuff like computers or first aid where I really want to find the books for. I also found out there's a driving manual that raises your skill to 3; I really wish I had found one of those as training driving manually is miserable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 10:14
|
|
|
Night vision is worth the pick point.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 10:14
|
|
|
Anticheese posted:Night vision is worth the pick point. If anyone can play the game without nightvision I would be amazed. I never go without that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 10:51
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:If anyone can play the game without nightvision I would be amazed. I never go without that. Not to mention it's worth it for the increased chance of mutating advanced night vision and stuff.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 10:55
|
|
|
randombattle posted:Not to mention it's worth it for the increased chance of mutating advanced night vision and stuff. That too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 11:03
|
|
|
It's less useful now that there are advanced mutagens. Troglodyte juice has a pretty high chance of giving you night vision to begin with, while being easy to make.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 11:15
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:If anyone can play the game without nightvision I would be amazed. I never go without that. But why would you even need to go out in the night anyway? Night time is for staying indoors in a safe location, reading books and/or crafting and/or sleeping.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 11:25
|
|
|
JosephWongKS posted:But why would you even need to go out in the night anyway? Night time is for staying indoors in a safe location, reading books and/or crafting and/or sleeping. If you know what you're doing, nighttime can also be a good time for sneaking around houses and collecting loot. Also it's extremely convenient to be able to find your way around dark areas more easily, very useful in labs and when infiltrating military bases at night, as well as just pottering around your base. Two tiles of visibility is a lot more than one, it vastly helps with working in the dark.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 11:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 22:50 |
|
|
Its also great for scavenging your starting zone and basements.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2013 12:10
|
|