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Panfilo posted:I saw a "sweded" scene from the battle of Hong Kong, and it's hilarious because it's like 2 seconds of a guy in an Otachi costume crashing through a cardboard building to ambush a guy in a Gypsy Danger costume. Here you are. Unfortunately, it's just a couple short scenes and not the whole battle, but it's better than nothing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCDbdht_XNk Honestly, I think Legendary Picture's PR department (heh) is a tad desperate (unsurprising given the whole perception that the movie was a flop in the North American market) if they're doing stuff like this in an attempt to virally market the home video release, but the results are pretty funny, so I'm not complaining. Doctor Bishop fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 07:34
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I'll have to watch it again then, I definitely thought it was an explosive effect. As for how much damage we can assume the kaiju sustained and didn't show it because they were tough, it seems like the sort of thing I wouldn't feel safe as a director letting the audience assume if I didn't at least add a cue or two. Like with Cherno, you could say that the acid dripping through his frame damaged all the necessary parts for coordinating punches, or weakened it in some way but that wouldn't be immediately clear compared to a panicked pilot or something without a visual or verbal clue like a joint popping out. Listen to the dialog that is already there and how it is delivered - when Cherno gets hit with the acid (watch how the Jaeger moves, it stumbles and stops running), Sasha shouts out that they've been hit with some type of acid and that they need backup immediately. In that line, Sasha is panicked. Then you have Chuck - the Australian gloryhound - getting all compassionate and worried and yelling at his father that 'we can't just let 'im die!' Speaking of the Australians... And the fact that the moment Cherno gets knocked down, Herc is telling Pentecost that the other two Jaegers are in trouble and they're going to move in and engage (against Pentecost's orders) should be more than enough to infer the horrible situation Cherno and Crimson have found themselves in. I wouldn't call Herc panicked, but his tone is definitely one of someone who is more than aware that something bad is about to happen. The fight is clearly lost from the outset. The film all but spells it out.
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Nov 18, 2013 09:58
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Doctor Bishop posted:Here you are. Unfortunately, it's just a couple short scenes and not the whole battle, but it's better than nothing. Holy gently caress, the pilots are on ellipticals, that's loving priceless. 
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Nov 18, 2013 17:09
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DStecks posted:Holy gently caress, the pilots are on ellipticals, that's loving priceless. Didn't Del Toro invite them to the premiere after he saw the first one?
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Nov 18, 2013 18:47
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Milky Moor posted:Listen to the dialog that is already there and how it is delivered - when Cherno gets hit with the acid (watch how the Jaeger moves, it stumbles and stops running), Sasha shouts out that they've been hit with some type of acid and that they need backup immediately. In that line, Sasha is panicked. Then you have Chuck - the Australian gloryhound - getting all compassionate and worried and yelling at his father that 'we can't just let 'im die!' Right, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't have been, but I meant we could add short, fast details that would color the fight such that the heroes still lose, badly, but maintain the character we expect them to have so the audience is less disappointed. So, for example, robot A punches monster B three times. Monster B doesn't seem to respond. Half the audience might assume this is because the monster is tougher and the other half might assume this is because the robot is inferior. If I wanted to make sure that people understand that the monsters are explicitly built tougher (since how much damage a punch does is variable)I would quietly help the audience along to understand what I mean by showing the monster has an exoskeleton, or visibly thicker pads of skin or having a punch bounce from some surface. Specifically, I think it would have been fun to have a visibly overgrown, thick ribcage that overlapped like plate armor exposed briefly when gypsy finally blew Leatherback open. This way the audience can get a big visual cue that shows how drastically different these creatures are built to take hits, instead of hoping they assume "extra toughness" comes with the obvious weapon adaptations. I think they actually do this fantastically with the Knifehead fight, where the monster resurfaces bleeding and covered in superficial wounds and burns, but still horribly mauls Gypsy. Audience gets to see what a jaeger can do, and the monster shows how resilient it is, nobody walks away from this scene disappointed in the robot. This is all little detail stuff, because overall the "oh hell we are screwed these are anti-jaeger kaiju" is done very well and should stay the same, but obviously people were still disappointed. I think this is because we see these robots so briefly, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing for this sort of movie. It's my opinion, as someone who isn't part of the industry, that they could have added a second or two here or there throughout the fight so the robots don't seem like chumps for going down so quickly and ineffectually. The details I noticed seemed to undermine what I had expected out of them, in context of knowing they are outclassed, rather than in an even fight. So Cherno can still know it is screwed and crippled from acid,all those lines can stay the same, but since we come to think the character is resilient and "a tank" a stubborn but pointless effort to swing at the creatures beating on it as it goes down would keep the audience from feeling jilted without spoiling the tone of the fight (this also helps to illustrate how the stubborn adherence to how they prefer to fight not only gets them into trouble but won't help them out of it) Dr. Red Ranger fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 20:34
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Cherno Alpha and the red guy are shown fighting onscreen for less than two minutes each. This is weirdly like reading an extended multipage analysis of the slightly taller alien in Man Of Steel.
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Nov 19, 2013 03:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Cherno Alpha and the red guy are shown fighting onscreen for less than two minutes each. This is weirdly like reading an extended multipage analysis of the slightly taller alien in Man Of Steel. I'm disappointed you never touched on the implications of Jesse Ventura being in Zod's forces.
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Nov 19, 2013 03:27
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Cherno Alpha and the red guy are shown fighting onscreen for less than two minutes each. This is weirdly like reading an extended multipage analysis of the slightly taller alien in Man Of Steel. I fully accept that I am spergin' hard about minor modifications to a minor part of the movie. It did get me to think about how tiny, seemingly unimportant details can affect my impressions though.
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Nov 19, 2013 03:42
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I fully accept that I am spergin' hard about minor modifications to a minor part of the movie. It did get me to think about how tiny, seemingly unimportant details can affect my impressions though. Don't get me wrong, there's quite a bit going on in those two minutes, but characterization is negligible. It's Russia and China fighting Capitalism. With that established, it's about the imagery. In a better film, that image of Leatherback's massive palm fully eclipsing the field of vision as it forces Cherno's head underwater would linger for more than four seconds. That's the best and most important shot, and the rest of the 1.5 minute fight scene is pretty much just exposition leading up to it. But then, it's just glossed over for the less-interesting shot of Cherno's head going 'poof'. When you consider what's actually going on in that scene, it's not very well-conveyed in a storytelling sense. We'd initially seen Cherno's pilots surrounded by the usual holograms in their armored cockpit. When Cherno is hit with acid, suddenly they're exposed to the elements. However, you don't see the acid actually melt away their windshield. You don't see the wind and water suddenly affecting them. You don't see a hole where the wall used to be. You even don't get an earlier POV shot that establishes what the kaiju are undermining by tearing away the wall and all shoving their hand up in there. The experience of Cherno's pilots is continually de-emphasized for some reason - we watch them drown, but the film does not evoke the feeling of drowning.
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Nov 19, 2013 04:22
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I got the impression that the damage was above the pilots, considering the position of the cockpit. Acid burns the head open, Leatherback rips chunks out of it, water rushes in once the machine is knocked over. I'm just trying to suss out why the opener was accepted by the audience at large but some aspects Hong Kong left people sour over the not-protagonists, even though both bouts ended in losses. I think it's because intentionally making their performance disappointing, in the puerile man-children wanting to play with toys again sense, was a mistake.
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Nov 19, 2013 05:25
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I got the impression that the damage was above the pilots, considering the position of the cockpit. Acid burns the head open, Leatherback rips chunks out of it, water rushes in once the machine is knocked over. I'm just trying to suss out why the opener was accepted by the audience at large but some aspects Hong Kong left people sour over the not-protagonists, even though both bouts ended in losses. I think it's because intentionally making their performance disappointing, in the puerile man-children wanting to play with toys again sense, was a mistake. For me, I simply felt cheated - not necessarily because I didn't get to see more robot victories and monster fights,though I'm sure there's a bit of that too, but because I felt lied to. Not only did the characters hype up the two doomed jaegers in their dialogue, but the design, photography, music, and everything else reinforced this message of their power and "specialness" for lack of a better word. Had we actually seen the two jaegers perform as advertised - even briefly - their destruction would have been even more shocking and I think the scene of their destruction would have had more impact. As it was, Del Toro sort of let the air out of the balloon and the audiences immediate reaction was a let-down, that the two jaegers were over-hyped chumps. I don't think that's what he intended, so I think he botched this. Sure, as an auteur perhaps Guillermo Del Toro's real aim was a perverse subversion of our expectations, but if so it seems sort of a weird choice and inconsistent with the tone of the rest of the movie. Wizchine fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 06:02
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e: ^^^ I've already mentioned, but this just doesn't make sense to me. How were those two Jaegars hyped? Crimson is described as technically impressive, Cherno as a brutal war machine despite its advanced age and first gen design. The hype is mostly directed at the pilots - they're the ones who are considered to be accomplished. e2: I mean, seriously, what 'specialness?' You're told Cherno is the oldest and heaviest of the Mark Is. You get told Crimson, a Mark IV, has a titanium hull and 50 diesel engines per muscle strand, which all that we have that to compare to is a restored earlier gen Jaegar. But the pilots get credited with defending the Siberian wall for x years and for protecting the coast x times. SuperMechagodzilla posted:When Cherno is hit with acid, suddenly they're exposed to the elements. However, you don't see the acid actually melt away their windshield. You don't see the wind and water suddenly affecting them. You don't see a hole where the wall used to be. Habibi fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 06:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Cherno Alpha and the red guy are shown fighting onscreen for less than two minutes each. This is weirdly like reading an extended multipage analysis of the slightly taller alien in Man Of Steel. Except the slightly taller alien in Man of Steel wasn't a major component of that film's marketing. 
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Nov 19, 2013 06:11
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Habibi posted:e: ^^^ I've already mentioned, but this just doesn't make sense to me. How were those two Jaegars hyped? Crimson is described as technically impressive, Cherno as a brutal war machine despite its advanced age and first gen design. The hype is mostly directed at the pilots - they're the ones who are considered to be accomplished. The film's opening even outright says "Jaegers are only as good as the pilots", how can anyone miss that?
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Nov 19, 2013 07:55
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Wizchine posted:For me, I simply felt cheated - not necessarily because I didn't get to see more robot victories and monster fights,though I'm sure there's a bit of that too, but because I felt lied to. Not only did the characters hype up the two doomed jaegers in their dialogue, but the design, photography, music, and everything else reinforced this message of their power and "specialness" for lack of a better word. Had we actually seen the two jaegers perform as advertised - even briefly - their destruction would have been even more shocking and I think the scene of their destruction would have had more impact. This movie was long enough as it is, and dragged heavily for me and my date seemed to agree. Adding more runtime to this movie just to build up these robots would take this movie from "fun but flawed" to a chore, at least for me. What your'e suggesting would be fine for an extended cut, I might even enjoy it in a home version I can pause at my leisure. For the theatrical version? To me it would just feel like needless padding unless you radically changed the movie to increase the importance of those pilots. Otherwise it's just action for the sake of action. MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 09:39
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Habibi posted:Yes you do? Not really. You get a CGI shot of Cherno Alpha getting spat on. Cut inside and the woman pilot says 'Cherno Alpha has been hit with acid!' and the camera pans up briefly to show some drips from somewhere vaguely above them. There's otherwise no indication of how this damage actually relates to the pilots - and that's very important. Cherno Alpha's hat melting is an abstract, unrelatable thing that needs to be made relatable. I have no idea what it means to have your 30-story mecha lose its robot hat. The only time you see Cherno's pilots and either monster in the same shot (or a POV shot from the perspective of the pilots, or a picture of the monster on their holoscreens, or something) is the aforementionned 3-4 second shot of leatherback's palm - which appears at the tail end of the sequence. The opening sequence is better, because you see Hero Brother get ripped out of an eye-hole, and Hero Guy does react to Gypsy's dismemberment by getting electrocuted. If that's the logic, shouldn't being hit in the face with acid gently caress up the pilots' visors? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 09:53
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Habibi posted:e: ^^^ I've already mentioned, but this just doesn't make sense to me. How were those two Jaegars hyped? Crimson is described as technically impressive, Cherno as a brutal war machine despite its advanced age and first gen design. The hype is mostly directed at the pilots - they're the ones who are considered to be accomplished. Same difference. I conflate the pilots and their machine as one unit (Stacker is the only wierdo who pilots two different jaegers). Hyped? Besides all the marketing hype, which was substantial, we have the same lingering loving shots of all the jaeger being deployed, the dialogue describing their accomplishments, and their unique appearances. They aren't shunted to the background, they aren't identical generic jaeger designs. The pilots, while underdeveloped, aren't much less developed than the other cardboard characters. It's just a lazy shortcut to tell us some things about a character, not show us, and then belie what we were told when the action unfolds. I want to see what makes these people and their machines so special, not just hear about a Thundercloud formation and watch the pilots play basketball. It's a waste of a setup. Del Toro did the exact same thing in Blade 2 (the Blood Pact) as many have pointed out. Imagine if in Seven Samurai the characters just talked about what a great swordsman Kyuzo was, but we never saw him do anything. Then, in the first attack by the bandits, he gets shot and dies. Would that not be cheap? The audience wanted to see what was awe inspiring about this character, why he was being talked about in reverent tones, and instead we get cinematic blue balls.
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Nov 19, 2013 10:10
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Wizchine posted:Same difference. I conflate the pilots and their machine as one unit (Stacker is the only wierdo who pilots two different jaegers). Hyped? Besides all the marketing hype, which was substantial, we have the same lingering loving shots of all the jaeger being deployed, the dialogue describing theirg accomplishments, and their unique appearances. Make up your mind, then, because your original complaint was that the Jaegars were hyped up in dialog, which they weren't. I don't really give a poo poo about the marketing. That you conflate Jaegars for pilots when the movie drubs into you that the former are only as good as the latter (which isn't the equivalent of the two being one and the same) is hardly the movies fault v  vSuperMechagodzilla posted:Not really. You get a CGI shot of Cherno Alpha getting spat on. Cut inside and the woman pilot says 'Cherno Alpha has been hit with acid!' and the camera pans up briefly to show some drips from somewhere vaguely above them. There's otherwise no indication of how this damage actually relates to the pilots - and that's very important. Cherno Alpha's hat melting is an abstract, unrelatable thing that needs to be made relatable. I have no idea what it means to have your 30-story mecha lose its robot hat. quote:If that's the logic, shouldn't being hit in the face with acid gently caress up the pilots' visors? Habibi fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 10:46
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Sometimes this thread reads like an Onion article. The core of these complaints seems to be that Del Toro failed to capture the inherent majesty and awesomeness of the robots he imagined. It's like there's some platonic ideal of a Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon that the director has done a disservice to.
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Nov 19, 2013 13:22
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Mr. Flunchy posted:Sometimes this thread reads like an Onion article. But there is! They exist in the realm of infinite possibilities that comes into existence as hype begins to build. ARGs lead to teaser trailers, maybe an extended clip or two, but eventually the film comes out. It's finite. What's 2 hours and change compared to months if not years of expectation and dreaming?
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Nov 19, 2013 13:58
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Maarak posted:But there is! They exist in the realm of infinite possibilities that comes into existence as hype begins to build. ARGs lead to teaser trailers, maybe an extended clip or two, but eventually the film comes out. It's finite. I've come to the conclusion that many people who call themselves film fans are actually sports fans in denial. Ditch Cherno Alpha and start following the career of a young, promising and hungry boxer - the heights of passion and disappointment you'll feel will eclipse anything a CG robot side character could ever produce.
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Nov 19, 2013 14:03
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Habibi posted:Uh. You get a short of Cherno getting it's chest and has covered in acid, visibly causing swaths of metal to slag off. A shot of the pilots asking for help as said acid begins to clearly eat away at their 'windshield.' And, as Leatherback jumps on top of them, s shot of the pilots being sprayed by incoming water and reeling as they yell that water is reaching the reactor. This is all before its arm is bitten through or the body and conn room ate pushed under water.  That is the only shot of the damage done to the cockpit by the acid. There's nothing that conveys that the entire front of the cockpit is missing besides that black shape. I don't think that's clear at all - especially in comparison to a theoretical interior shot where you would see the wall melt away from the inside, from the POV of the pilots, letting in starlight or whatever. Note that the cockpit is all golds and reds. Let the blue light in. quote:Why, because none of the other Jaegars (Gipsy, Crimson) demonstrate any neutral feedback between their and their pilots' heads/faces (probably because not having your brain 'electrocuted' anytime your Jaegars head gets damaged is a good thing)? Oh okay. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 17:22
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All they really needed to do was show a historical shot of both Jaegers kicking Kaiju rear end. They easily could've shoehorned in scenes in the prologue when Raleigh says "...we started winning, we got pretty good at it...". -Several seconds of Crimson Typhoon using its Thundercloud Formation to dismantle a bug-like Kaiju (like Belobog); actually taking advantage of the fact that it has three frikkin arms which I would think would allow it to hold down a Kaiju with 2 and saw it up with the third. -A scene with a Kaiju ineffectually clawing at Cherno only to get socked in the jaw and incinerated. For example, we get to see Striker Eureka's capabilities when it defends Sydney. It mauls the Kaiju pretty badly then peppers it to death with missiles. I don't even think the Kaiju there managed to do anything to Striker (granted, it looked like it was solely evolved to simply penetrate the Wall). The line "The Jaegers were only as good as their pilots" really rings true in the story. Crimson and Cherno's hubris was probably being too reliant on conservative strategies- Crimson's Thundercloud Formation was probably the gamewinner in all of its previous battles, and Cherno probably took advantage of fighting weaker Kaiju that it could simply be all "come at me bro" vs having to desperately lunge in to attack or attempt to dodge acid. They say Raleigh's fighting stype was 'unpredictable' but honestly I don't completely agree, it was predictable, but in a logical way. Kaiju has some threatening weapon, Gypsy Danger lunges in and rips it out  . Gypsy fought the way a person might fight against a dog or other animal- take advantage of your reach by using one arm to hold on to their head/appendages and use the other to punch it in the head.I'm guessing the past Jaegers were doomed by the same fate that befell Cherno and Crimson- overly reliant on outdated tactics that the Kaiju evolved to fight. That, and the attrition would take a very big toll, not just on the ability to replace lost Jaegers with new ones, but more importantly pilots. We're told the ability to pilot and drift in a Jaeger is a rare quality, and very few people can do it. I think the attrition particularly hurt the Ranger Corps, since even if you find new pilots, they lack the experience the old pilots had. Mako was fortunate that she grew up in the shadow of a Jaeger pilot (as did Chuck, in a way). But obviously others were not so lucky- take into account that Coyote Tango only had 2 kills- I'm betting that's with Pentecost and Taz in the conn. When Taz and Stacker were sickened by radiation, obviously other pilots took their place, and unfortunately got turned into Kaiju kibble. Panfilo fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 17:23
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Mr. Flunchy posted:I've come to the conclusion that many people who call themselves film fans are actually sports fans in denial. You're closer than you might think. Del Toro spends a significant portion of his director commentary explaining that Pacific Rim is a sports movie that just happens to have robots/pilots instead of athletes. The disgraced former player, coach, rear end in a top hat team star, scary adversary team from the rich side of town (kaiju), etc. EDIT: To back up what SMG is talking about, I didn't get the impression that the acid even affected the cockpit. The robot takes the acid full on in the middle of his hat and the upper parts melt down, with some drip down that gets into the cockpit ceiling. When Leatherback palms the cockpit screen before crushing iit, it looks like the glass is intact. Dr. Red Ranger fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 17:26
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:You're closer than you might think. Del Toro spends a significant portion of his director commentary explaining that Pacific Rim is a sports movie that just happens to have robots/pilots instead of athletes. The disgraced former player, coach, rear end in a top hat team star, scary adversary team from the rich side of town (kaiju), etc. See: my earlier post about kaiju films and the aesthetics of pro wrestling. quote:To back up what SMG is talking about, I didn't get the impression that the acid even affected the cockpit. The robot takes the acid full on in the middle of his hat and the upper parts melt down, with some drip down that gets into the cockpit ceiling. When Leatherback palms the cockpit screen before crushing iit, it looks like the glass is intact. The cockpit doesn't have a normal glass windscreen. There's a honeycomb-textured wall there instead. (The honeycombs are semi-transparent, but not enough to see through.) Leatherback's palm is visible there because, at some point, the entire front half of the cockpit was melted or ripped off, or something. It's unclear how or when that happened.
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Nov 19, 2013 17:44
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Ok, that's the sort of in-fight detail that I was talking about earlier. I think there are several opportunities for quick but effective embellishment in these scenes where the audience is left to assume the details.
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Nov 19, 2013 18:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
quote:Since the movie is a cartoon, it's okay to exaggerate the impact of the violence. It stands to reason that having your robot's face destroyed would hamper its ability to see. Have their visors glitch out; it's no biggie. Well, no it doesn't, since (a) nothing along those lines happen when the heads of other Jaegars get punctured, ripped apart, or otherwise damaged (which makes sense since their neural suit gizmos don't actually cover the head), and (b) you don't know where the visual sensors that link to those visors are located or what effect having much of the reactor or part of the chest melted would have on their visors (for all you know, much of what is being shown to them are internal status reports). Basically it just sounds like a complaint based on a bunch of unwarranted (and in some cases contradicted) assumptions that you're making.
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Nov 19, 2013 18:19
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Habibi posted:Because there's nothing to suggest that the entire 'front of the cockpit is missing'. [...] acid is getting on it, cracking their windshield enough to let water in The second-last shot of Cherno shows that the entire front of the cockpit was destroyed. You can see it at 1:28 in this clip. leatherback's hand is visible through a massive hole where the honeycomb wall/windshield used to be. There is no shot of Cherno's windshield cracking. quote:Well, no it doesn't, since (a) nothing along those lines happen when the heads of other Jaegars get punctured, ripped apart, or otherwise damaged (which makes sense since their neural suit gizmos don't actually cover the head), and (b) you don't know where the visual sensors that link to those visors are located or what effect having much of the reactor or part of the chest melted would have on their visors (for all you know, much of what is being shown to them are internal status reports). There actually is a brief (<1 second shot) of a punch causing Cherno's HUD to flicker. Is this the most effective way to convey that damage to the robot distorts the perceptions of the pilots? Keep in mind that, with this budget, they could have literally done anything. Saying "that's just how the suits work" isn't a valid justification.
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Nov 19, 2013 19:10
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The second-last shot of Cherno shows that the entire front of the cockpit was destroyed. You can see it at 1:28 in this clip. leatherback's hand is visible through a massive hole where the honeycomb wall/windshield used to be. quote:You are talking about the technical specifications of the virtual robot. I am talking about the presentation of the relationship between the actors, the special-effects spectacle, and other elements of the action scene. quote:Keep in mind that, with this budget, they could have literally done anything. Saying "that's just how the suits work" isn't a valid justification. e: and on a related note: SuperMechagodzilla posted:The cockpit doesn't have a normal glass windscreen. There's a honeycomb-textured wall there instead. (The honeycombs are semi-transparent, but not enough to see through.) Leatherback's palm is visible there because, at some point, the entire front half of the cockpit was melted or ripped off, or something. It's unclear how or when that happened. Actually they are transparent enough to see through, as you get a shot of both the internal lights flashing out from the glass on the outside, as well as one looking out from behind the pilots as they're first attacking otachi, and you can see the blur of motion from the fight through it (it's super fast but there is everything to suggest it's transparent enough to see through. Of course that is sort of moot when it comes to seeing Leatherback's hand, since as noted entire viewscreen is gone by the time he finishes tearing pieces of Cherno off and pushes the remainder under water. e2: vvv Right? I mean that fucker goes to town on it. Habibi fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 19:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The second-last shot of Cherno shows that the entire front of the cockpit was destroyed. You can see it at 1:28 in this clip. leatherback's hand is visible through a massive hole where the honeycomb wall/windshield used to be. Did you completely ignore Leatherback tearing huge pieces off of Cherno? It probably came from that.
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Nov 19, 2013 19:42
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I think its worth repeating something. We see Cherno and Crimson getting stomped by the Kaiju, but actually this is pretty much par for the course for when a Jaeger meets a Kaiju. Its easy to think of them as boxers racking up wins, but in fact the win ratios for the robots is pretty poor. If I recall correctly, Gipsy had only beaten 2 or 3 Kaiju before Knifehead ripped her apart (and one of those victories was as part of a 3 team drop, 3 against 1 Kaiju, how unfair!). Didn't Stacker's Jaeger only have 2 kills? Of the two elite Jaegers, Crimson had 6 kills and the uber sophisticated Styker Eureka had 10. When it appears that on average a Jaeger only last through 3 or 4 fights then its probably the case that Cherno and Crimson had lasted longer than expected anyway and were probably living on borrowed time.
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Nov 19, 2013 20:07
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Gipsy had 5 kills before Knifehead, iirc. But yes, most Jaegars didn't last very long unless, again as the movie makes clear, their pilots were good. Hence, again, why Pentecost doesn't credit the Jaegars with kills, but their crews. Though Pentecost's Jaegar iirc was retired not because of defeat but because it was killing its pilots. Habibi fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 20:21
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Actually, related to that, the thing that did big me was the Jaeger timeline. Literally all of they Jaegars were built in a 4 year span (3, if you don't count Striker), ending 6 years before the final events of the movie. And yet not long before that, we are told that the are losing Jaegars faster than they can build them. It doesn't make any sense. It took them a total 4 years to build them all, a total 10 years to lose them all, and at the time of that statement, they hadn't even tried to build one in about 5 years.
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Nov 19, 2013 20:32
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Habibi posted:Actually, related to that, the thing that did big me was the Jaeger timeline. Literally all of they Jaegars were built in a 4 year span (3, if you don't count Striker), ending 6 years before the final events of the movie. And yet not long before that, By the expanded universe, Striker Eureka finished construction a few months before Gipsy Danger was destroyed by Knifehead, and the film heavily implies that Gipsy was the first Jaeger to ever fall in combat. They might have figured they wouldn't need any more than they had, at least for a long time, and all the money for new Jaegers got earmarked for the Wall. By the time Jaegers started falling, the budget was already set, and the circumstances just convinced the politicians that the Wall was a better project any way if the Jaegers couldn't win any more.
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Nov 19, 2013 20:54
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Habibi posted:the specific scenario you're trying to fantasize makes absolutely no sense. Why would we see massive acid damage in the conn room when it's located mostly below the area targeted and hit by the acid? I'm talking about the imagery onscreen. You are correct that things happened offscreen, canonically, but that's unimportant. When I say that the holograms 'should' be distorted more, I am talking about fictional events that could happen to more effectively convey ideas to the audience. The filmmakers could have had Cherno get hit in the eyes. Saying "That's impossible! Cherno's eyes are located 3.5 metres from the location of the damage!" is... weird. Cherno Alphas don't exist. The filmmakers could have created an image of him being blinded if they had wanted to. We could have seen the wall get viscerally torn away, instead of just assuming that it happened at some point. That was an option. I am emphatically not talking about how the robot 'actually works', because that would be dumb. It's fiction. It was constructed by artists. When the red robot dies, a claw punctures the cockpit set. When the brown robot dies, a hand reaches into the cockpit set. Del Toro is obviously going for this thing where the puncturing of the cockpit represents death. The problem is that there is then a disconnect in prior interactions. The jaegers get punched and we cut to the usual 'Star Trek' thing where the actors flop around in a set. Outside the single death shots, we only see the pilots in a little room. They only interact with the world through the holograms. So: the filmmakers should have shown the holograms getting hosed up, to convey how the outside world affects the pilots. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 21:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I'm talking about the imagery onscreen. You are correct that things happened offscreen, canonically, but that's unimportant. quote:When I say that the holograms 'should' be distorted more, I am talking about fictional events that could happen to more effectively convey ideas to the audience. The filmmakers could have had Cherno get hit in the eyes. Saying "That's impossible! Cherno's eyes are located 3.5 metres from the location of the damage!" is... weird. Cherno Alphas don't exist. The filmmakers could have created an image of him being blinded if they had wanted to. Except I only brought up the technical details to reinforce things we do actually see happen on screen and which you either ignored, forgot about, or are refusing to acknowledge. So you complained that there was nothing linking the acid to the damage of the cockpit - which is a bizarre complaint because as far as we on screen, the acid doesn't damage the cockpit much. Instead, between the acid attack and the view of the destroyed conn room, what we see on screen is an enormous Kaiju gorilla sitting on the robot and pounding the hell out of it, tearing pieces off and throwing them away. And at the end you're asking, "Well why didn't we see more to show the acid destroying the front of the conn room?" It just doesn't make any sense. It's like seeing a chimp jump on and start assaulting a man amidst a flurry of blood and torn flesh, and then seeing the corpse with its face missing and going, "How did THAT possibly happen??" Well, poo poo, let me think. quote:We could have seen the wall get viscerally torn away, instead of just assuming that it happened at some point. That was an option. quote:I am emphatically not talking about how the robot 'actually works', because that would be dumb. It's fiction. It was constructed by artists. quote:So: the filmmakers should have shown the holograms getting hosed up, to convey how the outside world affects the pilots. Seriously, man, I get the feeling you just need to go back and rewatch the movie, because most of the stuff you've brought up actually did happen to some extent. And if your complaint is really, "Well, it didn't show it happening to enough of an extent," well, poo poo, what movie could you not say that about given that you're dealing with a 90-120 minute piece of media? Habibi fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 22:17
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It probably would have been better if the acid just tore through the Conn-Pod and wiped out the pilots instantly, IMO.
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Nov 19, 2013 22:35
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Habibi posted:Make up your mind, then, because your original complaint was that the Jaegars were hyped up in dialog, which they weren't. I don't really give a poo poo about the marketing. That you conflate Jaegars for pilots when the movie drubs into you that the former are only as good as the latter (which isn't the equivalent of the two being one and the same) is hardly the movies fault v Jeeze you're a hypocrite. I'm not allowed to bring in outside marketing in building my expectations for the film (like trailers - so esoteric!), but in your responses to SuperMechagodzilla you bring in all this technobabble about Jaeger design which obviously came from outside material which are OK, I guess, because they reinforce YOUR point I guess. Anyways, I'm sorry Habibi / Mr. Del Toro for questioning any choices in a film you directed - Pacific Rim was perfection incarnate, and clearly the problem is mine.
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Nov 19, 2013 22:40
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Wizchine posted:Jeeze you're a hypocrite. I'm not allowed to bring in outside marketing in building my expectations for the film (like trailers - so esoteric!), but in your responses to SuperMechagodzilla you bring in all this technobabble about Jaeger design which obviously came from outside material which are OK, I guess, because they reinforce YOUR point I guess. Oh yeah there was a whole lot of technobabble there  especially since I've already pointed out that everything you need to see is clearly visible on the screen without needing to refer to anything else. And I only called out your marketing comment because your initial complaint specifically referenced the hype in the dialogue, and that's what I was responding to until you suddenly started talking about marketing. And as I said then, if you're going by marketing hype, I don't really care about it and I'm not going to get in the way of your complaining, so feel free. So ooh yeeah I'm obviously a big hypocrite whatever.e: And apology accepted.
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Nov 19, 2013 22:55
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 23:29 |
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Habibi posted:It's like seeing a chimp jump on and start assaulting a man amidst a flurry of blood and torn flesh, and then seeing the corpse with its face missing and going, "How did THAT possibly happen??" There's a difference between what happens and how it happens. It is not presented very effectively. Also, your analogy is off because actually we repeatedly cut inside the man's brain to see two smaller men who represent his thoughts and experiences as he is being attacked by the chimp. There is no shot of 'the corpse with its face missing'. The missing face is presented from the viewpoint of thoughts inside the dying man's brain. The question is why this image of a man being ravaged by a mad ape is not very horrific (actually fairly shrugworthy), despite being realized with multi-million-dollar special effects and a sci-fi analogy/conceit gives us a direct link to the victim's psychology. There's a also point where the little thought-men become terrified that the man's power hat is being melted by acidic chimp spit. The power-hat being melted by acid spit is symbolic. Like it's literally the (nuclear) power of Putin-era Russia being dissolved. This is 'visualized' by the little thought-men yelling expository dialogue about how acid has melted the hat. The expository dialogue stands for a failure to visualize what is happening. The filmmakers could have easily shown them losing power with visual cues. (The lights dimming, a switch to a backup generator, things of that sort.) See, the actual story is not that a monster punched a robot. It's mythic Samson-style imagery, where Cherno's symbolic hat was the source of his power, and its being knocked off left him feeling impotent. With that established, is the film effective at conveying this? Nah, not really. Contrast it with something like Darth Vader taking off his mask, or Bane getting his mask damaged in Dark Knight 3. See also Sentinel Prime getting his helmet knocked off in Transformers 3, revealing his bald head.  Note the character's posture, and how he's positioned beneath Optimus. Having his hat knocked off is a big deal that makes him look weak and pathetic. There's barely any difference to Cherno before and after the hat gets knocked off. It's the point of the scene, and yet the presentation makes it seem fairly inconsequential - to the point that it hasn't even come up in the previous multipage analysis of the fight scene in question. Scyantific posted:It probably would have been better if the acid just tore through the Conn-Pod and wiped out the pilots instantly, IMO. Yep! Extended acid death would have been rad.
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Nov 20, 2013 00:16
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